Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DKnight 05-04-04, 11:15 AM	I figured a 12HD Displacer Beast would be a CR 6 challenge, especially according to the 3.5 rule of +1 CR for every 3HD. The thing is even a Blind, non Displacing Displacer Beast was killing a Party Member every attack. And I wasn't even using it's Bite. They hit it with Faerie Fire and Blindness, I figured it should be Dangerous and the Cleric may have to run around healing while the others do most of the slaying. Since there was six of them and the two Rogues has gotten a Flank and where attempting to Sneak Attack. But It was dealing out 30points of damage a round. And that's more than fatal to a 4th level character. I'd have to say when it went up a size category it went up an extra 2 CR. The +8 Strength combined with 1D8 tentacle attack is too lethal. It would have resulted in a Total Party Kill, so after the Second Death, I stopped and told them I had seriously mis-calculated the power this thing had, and that we'll just stop here, I'll re-engineer it and we'll try again. I don't beleive characters deserve to die, if the DM severely underestimates the challenge. So here's what I want help with, I want to apply a Template to this creature at somewhere between 6 to 9HD so that it's challenging but not automatically a TPK. I have MM1 & 2 and the Dragons from 292 onwards and the Dungeon's from 98 onwards. For info on the Party they are: 4th Level Fighter 4th Level Monk 4th Level Wizard (Has a Wand of Summon Monster 8 charges) 4th Level Cleric (Has Wand of Cure Light wounds 40 charges) 4th Level Rogue 3rd Level Rogue Nothing else of note, most magic items are useful (Bag of Holding) not weapons. 2 Magic Short Swords which are not Used. And an NPC Druid of 3rd level willing to cast Faerie Fire and throw rocks from a Safe distance. The only Template that is out is Dragon as I logically can't explain Half-Dragons considering Dragons have mysteriously disapeared 2000 years ago.
cwslyclgh 05-04-04, 11:29 AM	well a CR 6 creature is going to generaly be powerful enough to take out 4th level characters pretty easily... (It is 2 CR above the average party level after all). but when you raise a creatures CR for advanceing it not only do you raise it based upon HD, but if it increases a size catagory it gets a +1 too, and even then it is not hard and fast... you need to make judgement calls as well... the advanced dicsplacer beast you discribe would be in the cr 8-9 range
Will Brandiman 05-04-04, 11:55 AM	On the other hand, you do have 6 players instead of the 4 that the CR system assumes. I would have to say that the enhanced displacer beast should have been a tough encounter but not a TPK. This being said, there are a number of templates you could add to it that would up it's CR by a few without tipping the balance of power too much. Wight (from savage species) is a nice one at +3 CR (although I always thought +3 is too much). Corrupt from BoVD is also nice. IIRC it's +2 CR for a creature of those HD.
cwslyclgh 05-04-04, 12:04 PM	On the other hand, you do have 6 players instead of the 4 that the CR system assumes. I would have to say that the enhanced displacer beast should have been a tough encounter but not a TPK. I have found that a larger party can handle higher EL encounters based upon a number of small creatures relativly well, but single higher CR creatures tend to still be overly dangerous.
DKnight 05-04-04, 12:47 PM	Well considering they had more success against a pair of standard Displacer's than they did against a single standard Displacer Beast. I think it would be an Anti-Climax. Now I know the first 2 spells that hit this thing are going to be Faerie Fire, and Blindness/Deafness in Blind mode. I'm thinking a serious Strength Penalty might give them more survivability. Will Brandiman Good Advice but I don't have those books. And also how I was Rolling, I was rolling above 15 for every attack, and I was getting past the 50% miss chance for being blinded every time. Combined with the fact that I rolled 30 than 32 (Max) points of damage killing two (Melee) characters instantly. I figured the rest of the Party wouldn't be far behind. Some Exceptional Dice work on my part countered by my Players rolling nothing but 1's on the damage dice. I think made it a lot more dangerous than it should have been. Is there any way of crossing it with something else or giving it half fey abilities? Maybe even making it more intelligent? It's being used by Fey of the Unseelie court to hunt specific members of the party although it is now free from whatever control it was under and posing a serious threat to the area.
UZI 05-04-04, 01:34 PM	Originally posted by cwslyclgh I have found that a larger party can handle higher EL encounters based upon a number of small creatures relativly well, but single higher CR creatures tend to still be overly dangerous. Ditto. A higher CR single creature typically has more potent powers and defenses that lower level characters cannot easily overcome, no matter how many of them there are. Rather than thinking about it as a more powerful party, think of it as two smaller parties, and scale by adding enough critters to fight. Try to keep in mind, that when you advance HD and the creature changes size, it gets a much larger increase in its ability to hit and damage as both its BAB and its strength go up, as well as its natural attack damage dice. This can turn something that is barely noticeable into a challenge, and something that is a challenge into a killer.
MatrixM 05-05-04, 04:25 AM	Originally posted by DKnight Now I know the first 2 spells that hit this thing are going to be Faerie Fire, and Blindness/Deafness in Blind mode. Is there any way of crossing it with something else or giving it half fey abilities? Maybe even making it more intelligent? It's being used by Fey of the Unseelie court to hunt specific members of the party although it is now free from whatever control it was under and posing a serious threat to the area. Don't forget that blindness/deafness does have a save on it (Will negates IIRC). As for crossbreeding, use the fiendish template. The DR, SR, and fire/cold resistance will make it more versatile, but still not be a killing machine. Only one smite attack really, so it's good once only. If need be, they can draw the magic short swords that will bypass DR (but, it should only be 5 points of DR at that). The SR is only around 11-12, so fairly easy to bypass, but it's possible for the displacer to ignore some spells (blindness/deafness perhaps?). The CR boost for fiendish should only be +1 if you keep its HD below 7.
Veneficus 05-05-04, 05:49 AM	Originally posted by DKnight And also how I was Rolling, I was rolling above 15 for every attack, and I was getting past the 50% miss chance for being blinded every time. Combined with the fact that I rolled 30 than 32 (Max) points of damage killing two (Melee) characters instantly. I figured the rest of the Party wouldn't be far behind. Some Exceptional Dice work on my part countered by my Players rolling nothing but 1's on the damage dice. I think made it a lot more dangerous than it should have been. I had two sessions back-to-back a couple months ago. In 15 total rounds of combat between the two sessions, I think I rolled 25 or 30 natural 20s. Half of them I followed up with the Crit confirmation. My players were moaning and groaning, and I even rolled the dice in the open so they could all see.
DKnight 05-05-04, 01:10 PM	Originally posted by MatrixM Don't forget that blindness/deafness does have a save on it (Will negates IIRC). As for crossbreeding, use the fiendish template. The DR, SR, and fire/cold resistance will make it more versatile, but still not be a killing machine. Only one smite attack really, so it's good once only. If need be, they can draw the magic short swords that will bypass DR (but, it should only be 5 points of DR at that). The SR is only around 11-12, so fairly easy to bypass, but it's possible for the displacer to ignore some spells (blindness/deafness perhaps?). The CR boost for fiendish should only be +1 if you keep its HD below 7. Fiendish I've considered, maybe with 7 or 8 HD sounds good. And I haven't used anything fiendish yet. And the Smite should be a nasty surprise. I'm sure there's a half Fey Template in one of the Dragons or Dungeons does anyone know which? Guess I'll be searching on Friday. And I rolled a 2 (by far the worst roll of the day) for the Blindness save and got 15 requiring a mere 17 to make it. And it did take them 2 attempts, they did plan for it not to work 100%, which I do think is good.
Incenjucar 05-05-04, 02:35 PM	Templates, bah! It's my preference to work with what you have. You've got a displacer beast. It features: Tentacle Attacks Six paws Displacement Glowing Green eyes rumored to be a thief's good luck charm You can take those and make: Grappling or envenoming or super-long-reaching tentacles Uber-pounce Regenerating Mirror Images WITH displacement (The only one that's real is the one you can't see, bwahahah) Gaze attack, perhaps causing penalties to Spot/Listen, and give the bugger Hide in Plain Sight.
MatrixM 05-05-04, 07:12 PM	Originally posted by DKnight I'm sure there's a half Fey Template in one of the Dragons or Dungeons does anyone know which? Guess I'll be searching on Friday. The half-fey and the feytouched templates are both in the fiend folio, so if you have a copy of that you could use one of them (I couldn't say anything about them as I don't have those books). All I know is that feytouched is equivalent to fiendish, and half-fey is equivalent to half-fiend in regards to bloodlines are concerned. Something else that could make the displacer more powerful is to drop a few class levels on top of it. Use rogue or ranger levels to make it more woodland compatible perhaps. Or give it levels of bard. Afterall, just because it doesn't speak a human tongue doesn't mean it doesn't have a language (as a fiendish it could possibly speak abyssal/infernal). If you can't use the fey templates, then bardic abilities may be the best representation of the fey abilities
Dackad 05-05-04, 08:11 PM	The Feytouched is not a template, rather a race akin to the Aasimar and Tiefling. If you're going to template this beast up, make a reason for why its templated. Why is this Fiendish Displacer beast here? Where did this Half-Dragon Displacer Beast come from? Are there more Axiomatic Displacer Beasts in the area? Oftentimes, an encounter can be made interesting with a little backstory and you can make fun little plot hooks or side adventures with them. The Axiomatic Displacer Beast lairs in an area near an old portal to Acheron and after years the Beast has become suffused with energy from the plane? Cool! :cool:
MatrixM 05-05-04, 09:17 PM	Originally posted by Dackad The Feytouched is not a template, rather a race akin to the Aasimar and Tiefling. If you're going to template this beast up, make a reason for why its templated. Why is this Fiendish Displacer beast here? Where did this Half-Dragon Displacer Beast come from? Are there more Axiomatic Displacer Beasts in the area? Oftentimes, an encounter can be made interesting with a little backstory and you can make fun little plot hooks or side adventures with them. DKnight did give the backstory pertaining to the reason why this displacer is going to be modified. In the last paragraph of his second message to this topic he mentioned: DKnight Is there any way of crossing it with something else or giving it half fey abilities? Maybe even making it more intelligent? It's being used by Fey of the Unseelie court to hunt specific members of the party although it is now free from whatever control it was under and posing a serious threat to the area. So we know why the thing is not a "typical" displacer. And this is a great backstory for its modification as well. Reminds me of something my players will be facing shortly, a half-fiend dryad (drop half-fiend template on her and remove the tree dependency for addition +1 CR due to no dependency to tie enemy to small region) Thanks for clearing up the feytouched issue though, I figured that they were the fey equivalent of the fiendish template. Makes one think though, is there such a thing? A creature that is from faerie yet has no actual parentage that is fey itself, just inundated with the energies of the land? If not, guess you have to stick with the half-fey (again, if you have fiend folio).
Dackad 05-05-04, 09:45 PM	Originally posted by MatrixM DKnight did give the backstory pertaining to the reason why this displacer is going to be modified. In the last paragraph of his second message to this topic he mentioned: So we know why the thing is not a "typical" displacer. And this is a great backstory for its modification as well. Reminds me of something my players will be facing shortly, a half-fiend dryad (drop half-fiend template on her and remove the tree dependency for addition +1 CR due to no dependency to tie enemy to small region) I musta missed that. That's what I get for quickly skimming posts :p A fiendish, anarchic, or shadow template who work, along with the Half-Fey. I personally think the fiendish or shadow template would work well. Shadow and anarchic are from the Manual of the Planes. Thanks for clearing up the feytouched issue though, I figured that they were the fey equivalent of the fiendish template. Makes one think though, is there such a thing? A creature that is from faerie yet has no actual parentage that is fey itself, just inundated with the energies of the land? If not, guess you have to stick with the half-fey (again, if you have fiend folio). [/B] There are none that I know of unfortunately. :(