Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Vorpal Tribble 01-22-08, 09:48 AM	Outer Golem http://www.eso-garden.com/images/uploads_bilder/leonid_meteor_shower_2.jpg Gargantuan Construct Hit Dice: 60d10+60 (390 hp) Initiative: -2 Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), burrow 20 ft. Armor Class: 44 (-2 dex, +40 natural, -4 size), touch 4, flat-footed 44 Base Attack/Grapple: +45/+77 Attack: Slam +65 melee (8d10+24) Full Attack: Slam +65 melee (8d10+24) and 4 tentacles +60 melee (6d10+12) Space/Reach: 20 ft./40 ft. Special Attacks: Constrict, imact, radiate, trample Special Qualities: Blindsight 200 ft., damage reduction 35/epic and starmetal, fast healing 10, immunity to cold and heat, immunity to magic, otherworldly, starmetal body, Saves: Fort +20, Ref +18, Will +20 Abilities: Str 59 (+24), Dex 7, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1 Skills: - Feats: - Environment: Any Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 29 Treasure: None Alignment: Always neutral Advancement: 61-88 HD (Gargantuan), 89-115 (Colossal) Level Adjustment: - Outer golems appear vaguely as pockmarked tortoise shells made of rough, porous stone. Deep within artistically crafted crevices and holes one can see the glint of faintly glowing greenish metal. In certain particularly large, deep holes however something roils unpleasantly before oozing out and hardening into thick tentacles to support its weight and feel about. Outer golems are a complete enigma, falling unpredictably upon certain areas, usually cities, and then destroying every last shred of its existence and population before simply vanishing. Many even call them Heaven's Wrath, and fear that they are sent from the gods as ultimate punishment. Others venture they were made by an ancient race for protections. A small amount of others fear it is something even more insidious, that these are carefully planned attacks of some otherworldly intelligence of which even the gods are unaware. Such is likely the case they believe as the gods can never answer a single question about the things. Outer golems emit an eerie whine that changes in pitch and modulation, but if it is a language none have yet deciphered it. Outter golems weigh 80,000 lbs. Combat Outer golem always fall from the sky, wiping out a great swathe of area before pulling itself out to face the survivors. It then tramples and slams and constricts, destroying buildings and beings with equal fervor. When harmed, an oily liquid bubbles up and coats the area, repairing the damage. Once all has been ground into dust, or whatever other strange instruction have been carried out, it teleports away, perhaps not be seen again for millenia. An outer golem’s natural weapons are treated as epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Constrict (Ex): An outer golem deals 8d10+24 points of damage with a successful grapple check. Immunity to Magic (Ex): An outer golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. Any spell that does not allow spell resistance that is directed at the outer golem or affects an area that it occupies is automatically affected as if by the Wild Magic trait, and allows no concentration check. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below. An outer golem takes double damage from a *Nature's Purity spell. *Lords of Madness, p. 212. Impact (Ex): An outer golem that strikes the ground travels 10d10 feet into the ground, creating a crater whose width at top is equal to the depth and slopes inwards. All those in this area automatically take 500d6 bludgeoning damage and 100d6 fire damage. No save is allowed unless the target can move a distance equal to the blast radius in a single move action. If such is the case they may attempt a DC 54 reflex save for half damage. 1,000 feet in every direction of this crater is also affected as by an Earthquake spell and tornado force winds. These winds die down to the next lower category each round. When falling from any distance an outer golem takes only 1 point of damage per die, and is considered to have only fallen half the distance. An outer golem may only cause impact damage if coming from space. Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an outer golem must hit with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict. Otherworldly (Ex): An outer golem is immune to all divination spells and clairsentience powers. Radiate (Ex): Upon landing an outer golem is incredibly hot and literally glows with heat. Any creature within 60 feet automatically takes 20d6 fire damage each round they remain in range. This damage decreases by 1d6 points and the range by 5 feet for every hour since its landing. If the golem hits water its heat remains only for 1 round. As well, for the first hour after landing the golem is so bright it blinds those within 120 feet unless they succeed on a DC 30 fortitude save for a number of rounds equal to the golem's HD. The save DC is Constitution-based. Starmetal Body (Ex): An outer golem is considered to be made of starmetal and its attacks deal an additional 1d6 damage against creatures with the extraplanar subtype. Spell-like Abilities: 1/day - Greater Teleport (self only). Caster level 30th. Trample (Ex): As a standard action during its turn each round, the outer golem can literally run over an opponent at least one size category smaller than itself. The trample deals 10d10+34 points of bludgeoning damage. Trampled opponents can either attempt attacks of opportunity at a -4 penalty or Reflex saves (DC 54) for half damage. The DC is Strength-based.
Witch 01-22-08, 10:26 AM	Let's see: AC: Lower than the Infernal's CR 26. May need some adjusting upwards. Attacks: Superior to the Infernal's CR 26. Seem mostly fine, though I'd mention that the tentacles can improved grab in the attack line. That SLA is rather pathetic. It's Greater Teleport, and this is a CR 29. You don't need to limit it to 1/day. Just give it At Will. The creature deserves it. Hit points are pathetic. 390 hp cannot survive long at that CR. Maximizing hit dice may help alleviate the problem - 600 brings it more on par with the infernal's hit points (which has 710 at CR 26). Any reason why you haven't given them intelligence? I personally think that the epic level constructs deserve to be special enough to be able to think. Why should the Impact ability destroy anything unless it's made of starmetal or force? What if it, say, hit the Iron Tower on Dis, or a major artifact? This ability should be more restricted. How can one be immune to divination effects when they don't explicitly target it? It'd need a rewording in the sense of "Divination effects cannot divine any information about..." instead. I find it rather absurd that water makes the heat stop in six seconds when it takes 20 hours in the air. I'd change it to a minute to drop a die instead, when in water. All in all, I don't think this thing is anywhere near a CR 29.
PrinceOfTheVoid 01-22-08, 10:30 AM	You should make it sentient, give it a fly speed (like 200ft (perfect)), greater fly-by attack. If your familiar with Upper_Krust's work, some Virtual Size Categories and a Gravitic Aura would go a long way towards beefing it up
Witch 01-22-08, 10:37 AM	Just as a rough idea of how easy it is to kill this thing: An Orb of Acid deals 15d6 damage for a 4th level slot. An intensified Orb of Acid deals 180 for an 11th level slot. Two intensified orbs of acid basically kill this thing with no chance of resisting (although you'll need to throw in a single normal quickened orb of acid to finish the few hit points left.)
Sudnji_cas 01-22-08, 10:51 AM	Super awesome.:cool: And it reminds me of infernals from Warcraft III and aliens from the first few metal slugs... Were any of those your inspiration?
The Vorpal Tribble 01-22-08, 11:33 AM	Let's see: That SLA is rather pathetic. It's Greater Teleport, and this is a CR 29. You don't need to limit it to 1/day. Just give it At Will. The creature deserves it. However, at that point it can teleport itself right back up into the atmosphere and come screaming back down again. Purposely made it 1/day because otherwise this thing is completely unstoppable. Hit points are pathetic. 390 hp cannot survive long at that CR. Maximizing hit dice may help alleviate the problem - 600 brings it more on par with the infernal's hit points (which has 710 at CR 26). Well, look at the CR 25 adamantine golem. It's only one CR below the infernal and it's got far less than the infernal. Frankly the infernal looks ridiculously overpowered for it's CR. I was basing my CR's around the most powerful golems I could find, and this thing could tear an adamantine golem to ribbons. Any reason why you haven't given them intelligence? I personally think that the epic level constructs deserve to be special enough to be able to think. Because golems, no matter what, are mindless. I suppose I could make it intelligent and take away the golem part of the name, but to what ends could it put this intelligence? Why should the Impact ability destroy anything unless it's made of starmetal or force? What if it, say, hit the Iron Tower on Dis, or a major artifact? This ability should be more restricted. I suppose, but then I was actually being quite reserved with the damage. Much, much smaller meteorites made of greatly less strength of build could make near mile-wide craters that absolutely nothing known could withstand. How would you suggest I calculate what can and cannot be damaged and how much they are damaged by if at all? How can one be immune to divination effects when they don't explicitly target it? It'd need a rewording in the sense of "Divination effects cannot divine any information about..." instead. Why couldn't it? By what you are saying a scrying spell scrying the area should be able to pick it up because it's not focusing on the creature itself. I particularly do not want it to be able to be seen using scrying. I find it rather absurd that water makes the heat stop in six seconds when it takes 20 hours in the air. I'd change it to a minute to drop a die instead, when in water. You do realize that water is a heat sink, right? Lava can remain lethally hot for many hours, but put it in water and it cools in seconds. All in all, I don't think this thing is anywhere near a CR 29. All I can do is compare it to the other golems, and it is far in advance of a CR 25 adamantine golem. give it a fly speed (like 200ft (perfect)), greater fly-by attack. Not so sure however how it would have that (nor what purpose it would serve). An Orb of Acid deals 15d6 damage for a 4th level slot. An intensified Orb of Acid deals 180 for an 11th level slot. Two intensified orbs of acid basically kill this thing with no chance of resisting (although you'll need to throw in a single normal quickened orb of acid to finish the few hit points left.) Though that is about the only way to do it. Frankly I don't know what can stop those orbs, but take those away and you pretty much gotta hit it over and over again in a long-drawn out melee battle. And it reminds me of infernals from Warcraft III and aliens from the first few metal slugs... Were any of those your inspiration? Nope, don't know a thing about warcraft.
Witch 01-22-08, 11:45 AM	However, at that point it can teleport itself right back up into the atmosphere and come screaming back down again. Purposely made it 1/day because otherwise this thing is completely unstoppable. Well, that's assuming it gains sufficient momentum there, naturally. Well, look at the CR 25 adamantine golem. It's only one CR below the infernal and it's got far less than the infernal. Frankly the infernal looks ridiculously overpowered for it's CR. I was basing my CR's around the most powerful golems I could find, and this thing could tear an adamantine golem to ribbons. The Adamantine Golem has only 2 points more AC than the Tarrasque, less attacks (although dealing more damage), less immunities and protections, less than one half its hit points, no way of regenerating those hit points as the tarrasque does, only slightly better DR, roughly half the Tarrasque's saves, ... In short, the Adamantine Golem is crappier than a CR 20. Which basically makes it ... less than a CR 20. Because golems, no matter what, are mindless. I suppose I could make it intelligent and take away the golem part of the name, but to what ends could it put this intelligence? It could conceive of tactics, thinking "Hey, maybe I should teleport into the atmosphere to fall down again" - which it can't currently do. I suppose, but then I was actually being quite reserved with the damage. Much, much smaller meteorites made of greatly less strength of build could make near mile-wide craters that absolutely nothing known could withstand. How would you suggest I calculate what can and cannot be damaged and how much they are damaged by if at all? Listing a number of damage dice - such as 40d6 in a radius of X, 20d6 in a radius of Y, etcetera. Why couldn't it? By what you are saying a scrying spell scrying the area should be able to pick it up because it's not focusing on the creature itself. I particularly do not want it to be able to be seen using scrying. Which is why you should mention that, rather than say they're immune to scrying effects. Immunity applies to creatures that are the target of a spell - some divination effects do not have targets, but rather say things about something - such as, say, Legend Lore. You do realize that water is a heat sink, right? Lava can remain lethally hot for many hours, but put it in water and it cools in seconds. A heat sink, yes, but I think the water would still be significantly more hot than before. Remove a die per round, if you want to make it very quick, but utterly gone after a single round seems... extreme. All I can do is compare it to the other golems, and it is far in advance of a CR 25 adamantine golem. Which, as mentioned, is not a CR 25. Not so sure however how it would have that (nor what purpose it would serve). Though that is about the only way to do it. Frankly I don't know what can stop those orbs, but take those away and you pretty much gotta hit it over and over again in a long-drawn out melee battle. Exceptional deflection can stop it. Nope, don't know a thing about warcraft. http://www.warcraft3.sk/pics/races/undead/units/infernal.jpg
PrinceOfTheVoid 01-22-08, 01:49 PM	The impact ability is preposterous, the way you have it worded. Sure, nothing known in the real world can withstand such an impact, but in a DnD setting, there would be hundreds, if not thousands of things that could theoretically survive that kind of trauma. Plus, there is no precedent whatsoever for utterly annihilating something AUTOMATICALLY with no save or anything. This is DnD, not science class. If you want it to be obnoxiously hard to survive make it do something like this: Any target within 5d20 feet of the impact zone takes 100 Bludgeoning and 100 Fire damage for each HD the Outer Golemn possesses; No save is allowed unless the target can move a distance equal to the blast radius in a single move action. For those who can, a Reflex save is allowed for half damage, however, they must also make a fortitude save or be knocked violently back 5d20 feet by the force of the explosion. Of course that would increase the CR, excpet for the fact that the ability, as it stands know is completely broken and, frankly, the only saving grace on an otherwise pathetic monster. Also, I suggested the fly speed plus fly-by attack to give it something to do beside mindlessly wail at the party in futility, especially since it, as it stands, cannot fly, whihc is a glaring weakness. This is EPIC levels, leave such naive notions as mindless, single-roled constructs at the 21st level gate please. It takes more than that to challenge epic heroes. Edit: In addition, where are you getting those numbers for attack and damage from? And shouldn't it get bonus Hp based on its size? What Gargantuan creature does 8d10 damage a hit? And where are the tentacles coming from and how do they do damage? And isn't its AC a little low too? (although that is a fault of most golems, not just this one. I mean, a Frenzied Berserker with an item of Wratihstrike and a Ring of Solar Wings could make a flying charge and do enough damage to 1shot this thing with Power Attack. Even without the right weapon, the DR only adds 35 to its HP basically, nowhere near enough to survive a hit or 10. (Remeber, Dire Charge is available by now)
The Vorpal Tribble 01-22-08, 03:09 PM	The impact ability is preposterous, the way you have it worded. Sure, nothing known in the real world can withstand such an impact, but in a DnD setting, there would be hundreds, if not thousands of things that could theoretically survive that kind of trauma. Plus, there is no precedent whatsoever for utterly annihilating something AUTOMATICALLY with no save or anything. This is DnD, not science class. If you want it to be obnoxiously hard to survive make it do something like this: Any target within 5d20 feet of the impact zone takes 100 Bludgeoning and 100 Fire damage for each HD the Outer Golemn possesses; No save is allowed unless the target can move a distance equal to the blast radius in a single move action. For those who can, a Reflex save is allowed for half damage, however, they must also make a fortitude save or be knocked violently back 5d20 feet by the force of the explosion. 6,000 bludgeoning and then 6,000 fire sounds exactly like 'you kill it all'. Is there anything that can survive that period? However, you have given me an idea. Also, I suggested the fly speed plus fly-by attack to give it something to do beside mindlessly wail at the party in futility, especially since it, as it stands, cannot fly, whihc is a glaring weakness. This is EPIC levels, leave such naive notions as mindless, single-roled constructs at the 21st level gate please. It takes more than that to challenge epic heroes. Then why are there a handful of just that in the Epic Level Handbook itself? Edit: In addition, where are you getting those numbers for attack and damage from? What Gargantuan creature does 8d10 damage a hit? I was basing it off the adamantine golem. This is a more advanced version, so I upped the damage from 6d10 to 8d10. And where are the tentacles coming from and how do they do damage? If you read the description you'd know exactly where they are coming from. And shouldn't it get bonus Hp based on its size? Yes. And it did. Notice the +60 by its HD? A gargantuan creature gets 60 bonus HP. Of course that would increase the CR, excpet for the fact that the ability, as it stands know is completely broken and, frankly, the only saving grace on an otherwise pathetic monster. You're too kind. Are you referring to the creature in general or merely pathetic for its level? That is if you even know. I am currently unconvinced you actually read the post thoroughly...
The Vorpal Tribble 01-22-08, 03:40 PM	There, calculated on its weight and how much damage a falling object deals I have figure out much falling damage it deals, which is 400d6. I then added 100d6 from extra acceleration. Also made it so that it doesn't have to worry as much about the orbs because now spells that do not allow resistance get wild magicked.
Witch 01-22-08, 04:12 PM	As for hit points - given that you increased the number of damage dice they do due to a sort of "virtual size categories", perhaps you should adjust bonus hp gained from size because of that too?
Echoes of Deception 01-22-08, 05:26 PM	Personally, VP, I find that your golem has amazing flavor and purpose in a campaign setting. This creature as it now stands would strike terrible fear into the hearts of all but the most stalwart heroes. Also, it would appear to me that most of the advice given hereto in the thread on this creature seems to be under the impression that since the creature is clearly epic, it must be something of a be/end all challenge. If the scope of your campagin were truly epic, fighting the golem after it lands should be the least of the characters' concerns. From the sounds of it, these things usually land on populated or important areas. Can you really imagine then, the dilemma that an outter golem's threat creates? You don't have to kill it after it lands. You have to stop it from landing! That's completely ridiculous! THere is, however, a single point of interest to which I must agree. Its hit point total, combined with its damage reduction and fast healing, does not seem at par with other creatures of its threat level. Although creatures without Constitution scores cannot have regeneration, perhaps the outter golem could have an ability that allows it to reform if its destroyed pieces are brought within a certain range of one another? Or, if you wanted to go on the weird side, then I have a question. You said that there is a strange green substance within the golem, from which its locomotive tentacles are made, yes?
PrinceOfTheVoid 01-22-08, 05:27 PM	Sorry if I came across as a little grouchy earlier. Here's an actually consturctive suggestion: would you possibly consider taking a page out of the Collossi's book and giving it a permanent antimagic field? That would take care of almost any threat to it that I can think of. If you want to be really nasty, make it so the field doesn't effect the golem itself, so that it retains its DR and other special qualities. Also, I'm pretty sure that falling objects are capped at 20d6. Edit: Also, maybe some kind of rain of fire effect if you actually destory it before it lands, like with an actual meteor. And yes, I find the "bruiser" monsters in the ELH to be incredibly poorly designed and offer little challenge to a well-optimized party. (With certain exceptions) The Hecatoncheires, for instance, is a bruiser, and will almost certainly lose initiative and die in one round to a ECL 57 party.
The Vorpal Tribble 01-22-08, 07:15 PM	As for hit points - given that you increased the number of damage dice they do due to a sort of "virtual size categories", perhaps you should adjust bonus hp gained from size because of that too? Well, except that though damage dice are at the discretion of the monster maker, HP rules are usually pretty strict. I suppose I could say that part of the starmetal build is that it gains double the amount of hp it gets for being a construct, but that'd only be 60 extra. Even if I considered it to be 'colossal' sized for the purpose of HP that wouldn't add much. Even if I gave it Improved Toughness as a bonus feat it wouldn't help. Basically this thing needs almost twice its HP. It's likely I'll just have to lower the CR. Although creatures without Constitution scores cannot have regeneration, perhaps the outter golem could have an ability that allows it to reform if its destroyed pieces are brought within a certain range of one another? I had thought of that but... heeeeey. Anyone heard of the 'grey sludge', nanobots that just keep building. I wonder if I couldn't say the slime was actually tiny robots in a liquid medium. Only problem with that is it seems to take away the icky feel of 'this things got some strange alien goo inside!'. Or, if you wanted to go on the weird side, then I have a question. You said that there is a strange green substance within the golem, from which its locomotive tentacles are made, yes? Yup. Here's an actually consturctive suggestion: would you possibly consider taking a page out of the Collossi's book and giving it a permanent antimagic field? That would take care of almost any threat to it that I can think of. If you want to be really nasty, make it so the field doesn't effect the golem itself, so that it retains its DR and other special qualities. I might have taken it... but just seems too commonplace. The new way I have it I thought would help it out a good deal and make it seem even spookier by the few spells that do effect it having the possibility of going very wrong. Also, I'm pretty sure that falling objects are capped at 20d6. How much damage from sheer height is capped at 20d6. However, the weight of an object can continue to infinite unless I completely overlooked something. For every 200 pounds of an objects weight it deals an extra 1d6. This thing is 80,000 lbs, or 400d6. Technically it should do 420d6, but I just rounded it out to 500d6, saying the extra 80d6 is from it coming in faster than mere gravitational pull. Edit: Also, maybe some kind of rain of fire effect if you actually destory it before it lands, like with an actual meteor. That'd be cool.
ArgulFraster 01-22-08, 07:28 PM	Outer only has one T. Otherwise it seems fine, but I'm only recently learning to DM and am nowhere near epic level, so meh.
Echoes of Deception 01-22-08, 09:12 PM	Perhaps then, Vorpal Tribble, have you considered what might happen if the green slime were to jump free of the shell, swing the shell like a giant ball & chain, or if it could reflexively seal itself up inside the shell again? Also, you said that when it takes damage, the strange substance wells up and fills in the space, repairing the damage done. I think your creature may be particularly fearsome if when damage is dealt to the golem by a natural or manufactured weapon, if the damage dealt by that weapon would be repaired by that round's bout of fast healing, the golem has a chance to trap the weapon in its body when it heals over, effectively semi-permanently disarming armed foes, or trapping foes making unarmed attacks to its body. Just a thought, though. P.S. Oh, and for the record, I like the 'hey, this thing's got strange alien goo inside!' idea.
DebiHuman 01-24-08, 10:03 PM	Wouldn't advancement be: 61-120 and then 121-180? Impact (Ex): An outer golem that strikes the ground travels 10d10 feet into the ground, creating a crater whose width at top is equal to the depth and slopes inwards. All those in this area automatically take 500d6 bludgeoning damage and 100d6 fire damage. No save is allowed unless the target can move a distance equal to the blast radius in a single move action. If such is the case they may attempt a DC 54 reflex save for half damage. [/quote/ So far I like this. It's nasty but only if it lands in a populated area. I don't have a problem with the amount of damage but on averge it will cause 1750 points of bludgeoning damage and 350 points of fire damage. [quote]1,000 feet in every direction of this crater is also affected as by an Earthquake spell and tornado force winds. These winds die down to the next lower category each round. Again this is good. What happens if it lands in water? When falling from any distance an outer golem takes only 1 point of damage per die, and is considered to have only fallen half the distance. How far does the golem have to fall before it causes impact damage? It doesn't seem right for an outer golem to fall 10 feet and cause impact damage (on average 1750 points of bludgeoning damage and 350 points of fire damage) It should have a minimum distance it must fall before it can cause impact damage or the impact damage should be related to distance fallen. Since falling damage maxs out at 20 HD (or 200 feet), I would say that the outer golem has to fall at least 200 feet in order to use this abilty. It probably would make more sense it it had to fall from a height greater than that. Considering you gave it 500d6 that would translate into 5,000 feet. In other words, an outer golem does 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage for every 10 feet it falls for a maximum of 500d6 points of bludgeoning damage and it does 1/5th that amount in fire damage. At least I think that is how it would work. Can someone better at number crunching check this for me? Also, this is falling damage not flying so once the trajectory of the outer golem is set, it cannot change course. Just my 2 cents. Debby
A_Fatter_MaN 03-08-08, 08:29 AM	cool idea.....butttttt it does seem that it has slightly low HP. other than that it looks cool :D