Epic Minotaur [Archive] - Wizards Community

Epic Minotaur [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CelestialBarbarian
03-25-07, 01:41 PM I'm creating an epic-level minotaur to play the roll of the ultimate badguy in an adventure for the high-level characters in the campaign I run. I could simply give the minotaur levels in a class, say barbarian, to raise his CR above 21. (I'm not sure exactly how high I want to go yet, other than at least 22, and probably a bit higher.)

I was thinking though that I could add templates to make the epic minotaur more monstrous and less PCish. Here's what I have so far:

Minotaur CR 4 + paragon template (+15 CR) + feral template (+1 CR) + monster of legend template (+2 CR) = CR 22. On top of that I might add a couple or few barbarian levels.

Any suggestions? Thanks! :)
MagicMouth
03-25-07, 02:58 PM Well, a CR 22 creature with 6 HD seems a bit... meek. Even if you add a few class levels I suspect he will fall easily, especially if the PCs have spells such as Holy Word.

I would probably focus on giving him class levels and just add Feral and/or Monster of Legend. That way you have greater room to customize the creature, and if I´m not completely mistaken it´ll make him both more powerful and interesting.

Or perhaps I´m underestimating the power of the Paragon template... I´ve never really liked that one. If I want to make some super creature I´ll use the Eternal template from Warcraft RPG: Shadows & Light. Granted, that one is primarily for near-deific creatures... but at Epic levels it probably works out decently.
CelestialBarbarian
03-25-07, 03:10 PM Well, a CR 22 creature with 6 HD seems a bit... meek. Even if you add a few class levels I suspect he will fall easily, especially if the PCs have spells such as Holy Word.

I would probably focus on giving him class levels and just add Feral and/or Monster of Legend. That way you have greater room to customize the creature, and if I´m not completely mistaken it´ll make him both more powerful and interesting.

Or perhaps I´m underestimating the power of the Paragon template... I´ve never really liked that one. If I want to make some super creature I´ll use the Eternal template from Warcraft RPG: Shadows & Light. Granted, that one is primarily for near-deific creatures... but at Epic levels it probably works out decently.

Thanks for the reply! I hadn't thought about the low number of hit dice. That's part of why I post these things before finalizing them. :)

The paragon template does give SR = CR + 25. In this case, the minotaur would have SR 49. The party's wizard, currently 21st level with greater spell penetration, could overcome only CR 45 even with the roll of a natural 20. So the cleric, with an effective caster level of 19 and only spell penetration, could not affect the minotaur with a holy word.

Alas I don't have the book you mention, so I can't compare it to the paragon template, but the paragon template does appear to offer a great many significant benefits.
Morwen
03-25-07, 05:23 PM There is a whole lot of very useful spells that don't care about Spell Resistance, though. Some of them would wreak havoc with any 6-HD monster..
Holy_Beholder
03-25-07, 08:44 PM I would probably just create a new monster. Maybe base it off the greek mythology monster. Gargantuan, 30HD, Gore attack, one massively powerful powerful charge, spell resistance, ect.
Dead_Weasel
03-25-07, 09:33 PM The Paragon template is big and bad, but despite the HP boosts the template gives it's still usually still anemic compared to something that actually gets 15 HD. Or 30 nonassociated HD (like cleric or druid, for minotaurs).
runestar
03-26-07, 01:14 AM You could use baphomet from FC1 and just change his name...:D
A goristo is quite minotaur-like itself. Just advance it to the appropriate HD(6-8 extra outsider HD)?
CelestialBarbarian
03-26-07, 01:32 AM You could use baphomet from FC1 and just change his name...:D

Nah. Like every other demon prince in FCI, he's much too weak. At a CR of only 20 he's not even epic! I guess I could level him up too. I think Baphomet might have appeared in a stronger version in Dragon magazine. Storyline-wise, however, I wouldn't want it to actually be a demon prince.

A goristo is quite minotaur-like itself. Just advance it to the appropriate HD(6-8 extra outsider HD)?

Yeah, I suppose I could do that too.
Needle
03-26-07, 01:57 AM You need to be giving the minotaur class levels to increase his HP / attack bonuses / saving throws.

Dont think of templates. You'll be making him a 1 shot wonder.

'And here is the SUPER evil bad guy of monsterous proportions!'

'i cast magic missile'

'He err.. drops dead to the floor. Moving on..'

If you're after making him an epic threat, you need to be giving im enough class levels to fit. Templates affect class levels, on their own they dont do much.

I would advise making him a barbarian / frenzied berzerker. Those are terrifying bad guys..
CelestialBarbarian
03-26-07, 02:56 AM You need to be giving the minotaur class levels to increase his HP / attack bonuses / saving throws.

Dont think of templates. You'll be making him a 1 shot wonder.

'And here is the SUPER evil bad guy of monsterous proportions!'

'i cast magic missile'

'He err.. drops dead to the floor. Moving on..'

If you're after making him an epic threat, you need to be giving im enough class levels to fit. Templates affect class levels, on their own they dont do much.

I would advise making him a barbarian / frenzied berzerker. Those are terrifying bad guys..

Doing this quickly:

1. Hit points: increase by 183 from 39 to 222;
2. Attack bonus: increases by +25 (luck) +13 (Strength) = +38
3. Damage bonus: increases by +20 (luck) +20 Strength) = +40
3a. on charge/gore increases another +13 for a total of +53
4. Save bonus: +10 (insight) +3 unnamed = +13
4a. Fort: +13 (Constitution) = +26 (for a total of +32)
4b. Reflex: +10 (Dexterity) = +23 (for a total of +28)
4c. Will: +8 (Wisdom) = +21 (for a total of +26)
5. SR: increases from nothing to 49 (higher than anyone in the party can beat)
6. Fast healing: increases from nothing to 20
7. DR goes from nothing to 10/epic (which nobody in the party can currently overcome, although they can certainly overpower)
8. AC: increases by +7 (natural) +12 (insight) +12 (luck) +10 (Dexterity) = +41 (from 14 to 55, which unbuffed the main melee specialist in the party would need a natural 21 to hit with his best iterative attack)
9. Special abilities:
9a. gains pounce (can charge to gore and make both axe attacks)
9b. spell-like abilities 3/day: greater dispel magic, haste, and see invisibility
9c. plus it acually can act hasted at all times
9d. immune to two of the following: acid, electricity, fear, polymorphing, or mind-affecting effects
9e. See in darkness
9f. Either cold or fire subytpe (and the corresponding immunity and weakness)
9g. Fire and cold resistance 10
9h. +10 competence bonus on all skill checks, and assorted bonuses, ranging from +8 to +13 from ability score increases, plus additional skill points for higher intelligence (64 extra skill points)
10. Feats: Improved Initiative, Multiattack, plus two others than can be epic feats (somehow the paragon mind flayer got 5 epic feats, which makes no sense under the paragon template rules, which add only two bonus feats).

It looks like it would lose 1 feat, and its skill rank maximum would remain much lower. Other than that it appears to get much more than it would from 15 class levels. So for most of its abilities the combination of the three templates will prove the minotaur with much better benefits than it would get from 15 class levels.

As for the barbarian/frenzied berserker, I have used one before in this campaign. It was quite a while ago, so repeating it wouldn't have the effect of using it repeatedly in rapid succession, but it would still provide a rather familiar challenge.

Edit: If he got 16 barbarian/frenzied berserker levels, and I added 3 of his 4 ability score increase to his Con, he would gain 174 hit points, 9 less than the 183 hit points from the three templates.
Needle
03-26-07, 03:12 AM Hmm, i see. I'm not too up on the templates you mentioned, so forgive me if i assumed they were more '+8 Str and +4NA' type things :)
CelestialBarbarian
03-26-07, 03:23 AM Hmm, i see. I'm not too up on the templates you mentioned, so forgive me if i assumed they were more '+8 Str and +4NA' type things :)

No problem. The monster of legend grants a +10 increase to both Strength and Constitution, +6 to Dexterity, +4 to Charisma and +2 to Intelligence and Wisdom. The paragon template, however, befitting its epic status, grants a +15 increase to every ability score. And that's not even the best benefit of the paragon template. It has bonuses on all sorts of things flying left and right. It's pretty awesome.

I neglected to even mention giving the epic minotaur the benefit of wealth according to its ECL. It might have, for instance, a +5 vorpal greataxe, a +5 amulet of mighty fists (for the gore attack), a +5 cloak of resistance, a +5 ring of protection, etc. I mean it might not have each and every one of these things, but the point is that the magic items appropriate for a CR 22 encounter would make it even more powerful than I calculated above. :)

Edit: I missed two of its best abilities (both from the monster of legend template):

9i. It has a permanent spell turning supernatural ability in effect!
9j. It regrows lost extremities in one round, so a vorpal effect can't kill it
Morrowner
03-26-07, 11:53 AM Take a minotaur.
Give it 12 more HD.
Throw Pseudonatural Monster of Legend on it and give it two size increases to Gargantuan. Yeah, that is going to be a pounding!
Edit:Any you think the SR is nasty on your monster now? Aint no thing but a chicken wing, the Pseudonatural Minotaur would have SR 90!
378 HP, too.
68 Strength(Sweet Sassy Molassey!)
Oh, and assuming that the gore attack is 3 bumps of the Gore Attack damage plus strength and a half the damage would be 8d6+42 at +55. Say full power attack/Leap attack/Powerful Lunge the damage goes to 8d6+228!
I'm one sick puppy!
Edit:Check out the Greathorn Minotaur in Monster Manual 4 if you have it.
Sylvaroth
03-26-07, 12:13 PM Paragon Half-Fiend/Half-Greathorn Minotaur/Were-Dire Ox druid :D
CelestialBarbarian
03-26-07, 09:25 PM Take a minotaur.
Give it 12 more HD.
Throw Pseudonatural Monster of Legend on it and give it two size increases to Gargantuan. Yeah, that is going to be a pounding!
Edit:Any you think the SR is nasty on your monster now? Aint no thing but a chicken wing, the Pseudonatural Minotaur would have SR 90!
378 HP, too.
68 Strength(Sweet Sassy Molassey!)
Oh, and assuming that the gore attack is 3 bumps of the Gore Attack damage plus strength and a half the damage would be 8d6+42 at +55. Say full power attack/Leap attack/Powerful Lunge the damage goes to 8d6+228!
I'm one sick puppy!
Edit:Check out the Greathorn Minotaur in Monster Manual 4 if you have it.

I noticed the pseudonatural template, but I've always thought it fit better for something Cthulhuish.

I've heard of the greathorn minotaur, but I don't have MM4. What's it like? Is it good enough to justify getting MM4? I'd though of just advancing the minotaur by monster hit dice, or partially by monster hit dice and then adding the paragon template.
CelestialBarbarian
03-26-07, 09:27 PM Paragon Half-Fiend/Half-Greathorn Minotaur/Were-Dire Ox druid :D

:rofl:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CelestialBarbarian 03-25-07, 01:41 PM	I'm creating an epic-level minotaur to play the roll of the ultimate badguy in an adventure for the high-level characters in the campaign I run. I could simply give the minotaur levels in a class, say barbarian, to raise his CR above 21. (I'm not sure exactly how high I want to go yet, other than at least 22, and probably a bit higher.) I was thinking though that I could add templates to make the epic minotaur more monstrous and less PCish. Here's what I have so far: Minotaur CR 4 + paragon template (+15 CR) + feral template (+1 CR) + monster of legend template (+2 CR) = CR 22. On top of that I might add a couple or few barbarian levels. Any suggestions? Thanks! :)
MagicMouth 03-25-07, 02:58 PM	Well, a CR 22 creature with 6 HD seems a bit... meek. Even if you add a few class levels I suspect he will fall easily, especially if the PCs have spells such as Holy Word. I would probably focus on giving him class levels and just add Feral and/or Monster of Legend. That way you have greater room to customize the creature, and if I´m not completely mistaken it´ll make him both more powerful and interesting. Or perhaps I´m underestimating the power of the Paragon template... I´ve never really liked that one. If I want to make some super creature I´ll use the Eternal template from Warcraft RPG: Shadows & Light. Granted, that one is primarily for near-deific creatures... but at Epic levels it probably works out decently.
CelestialBarbarian 03-25-07, 03:10 PM	Well, a CR 22 creature with 6 HD seems a bit... meek. Even if you add a few class levels I suspect he will fall easily, especially if the PCs have spells such as Holy Word. I would probably focus on giving him class levels and just add Feral and/or Monster of Legend. That way you have greater room to customize the creature, and if I´m not completely mistaken it´ll make him both more powerful and interesting. Or perhaps I´m underestimating the power of the Paragon template... I´ve never really liked that one. If I want to make some super creature I´ll use the Eternal template from Warcraft RPG: Shadows & Light. Granted, that one is primarily for near-deific creatures... but at Epic levels it probably works out decently. Thanks for the reply! I hadn't thought about the low number of hit dice. That's part of why I post these things before finalizing them. :) The paragon template does give SR = CR + 25. In this case, the minotaur would have SR 49. The party's wizard, currently 21st level with greater spell penetration, could overcome only CR 45 even with the roll of a natural 20. So the cleric, with an effective caster level of 19 and only spell penetration, could not affect the minotaur with a holy word. Alas I don't have the book you mention, so I can't compare it to the paragon template, but the paragon template does appear to offer a great many significant benefits.
Morwen 03-25-07, 05:23 PM	There is a whole lot of very useful spells that don't care about Spell Resistance, though. Some of them would wreak havoc with any 6-HD monster..
Holy_Beholder 03-25-07, 08:44 PM	I would probably just create a new monster. Maybe base it off the greek mythology monster. Gargantuan, 30HD, Gore attack, one massively powerful powerful charge, spell resistance, ect.
Dead_Weasel 03-25-07, 09:33 PM	The Paragon template is big and bad, but despite the HP boosts the template gives it's still usually still anemic compared to something that actually gets 15 HD. Or 30 nonassociated HD (like cleric or druid, for minotaurs).
runestar 03-26-07, 01:14 AM	You could use baphomet from FC1 and just change his name...:D A goristo is quite minotaur-like itself. Just advance it to the appropriate HD(6-8 extra outsider HD)?
CelestialBarbarian 03-26-07, 01:32 AM	You could use baphomet from FC1 and just change his name...:D Nah. Like every other demon prince in FCI, he's much too weak. At a CR of only 20 he's not even epic! I guess I could level him up too. I think Baphomet might have appeared in a stronger version in Dragon magazine. Storyline-wise, however, I wouldn't want it to actually be a demon prince. A goristo is quite minotaur-like itself. Just advance it to the appropriate HD(6-8 extra outsider HD)? Yeah, I suppose I could do that too.
Needle 03-26-07, 01:57 AM	You need to be giving the minotaur class levels to increase his HP / attack bonuses / saving throws. Dont think of templates. You'll be making him a 1 shot wonder. 'And here is the SUPER evil bad guy of monsterous proportions!' 'i cast magic missile' 'He err.. drops dead to the floor. Moving on..' If you're after making him an epic threat, you need to be giving im enough class levels to fit. Templates affect class levels, on their own they dont do much. I would advise making him a barbarian / frenzied berzerker. Those are terrifying bad guys..
CelestialBarbarian 03-26-07, 02:56 AM	You need to be giving the minotaur class levels to increase his HP / attack bonuses / saving throws. Dont think of templates. You'll be making him a 1 shot wonder. 'And here is the SUPER evil bad guy of monsterous proportions!' 'i cast magic missile' 'He err.. drops dead to the floor. Moving on..' If you're after making him an epic threat, you need to be giving im enough class levels to fit. Templates affect class levels, on their own they dont do much. I would advise making him a barbarian / frenzied berzerker. Those are terrifying bad guys.. Doing this quickly: 1. Hit points: increase by 183 from 39 to 222; 2. Attack bonus: increases by +25 (luck) +13 (Strength) = +38 3. Damage bonus: increases by +20 (luck) +20 Strength) = +40 3a. on charge/gore increases another +13 for a total of +53 4. Save bonus: +10 (insight) +3 unnamed = +13 4a. Fort: +13 (Constitution) = +26 (for a total of +32) 4b. Reflex: +10 (Dexterity) = +23 (for a total of +28) 4c. Will: +8 (Wisdom) = +21 (for a total of +26) 5. SR: increases from nothing to 49 (higher than anyone in the party can beat) 6. Fast healing: increases from nothing to 20 7. DR goes from nothing to 10/epic (which nobody in the party can currently overcome, although they can certainly overpower) 8. AC: increases by +7 (natural) +12 (insight) +12 (luck) +10 (Dexterity) = +41 (from 14 to 55, which unbuffed the main melee specialist in the party would need a natural 21 to hit with his best iterative attack) 9. Special abilities: 9a. gains pounce (can charge to gore and make both axe attacks) 9b. spell-like abilities 3/day: greater dispel magic, haste, and see invisibility 9c. plus it acually can act hasted at all times 9d. immune to two of the following: acid, electricity, fear, polymorphing, or mind-affecting effects 9e. See in darkness 9f. Either cold or fire subytpe (and the corresponding immunity and weakness) 9g. Fire and cold resistance 10 9h. +10 competence bonus on all skill checks, and assorted bonuses, ranging from +8 to +13 from ability score increases, plus additional skill points for higher intelligence (64 extra skill points) 10. Feats: Improved Initiative, Multiattack, plus two others than can be epic feats (somehow the paragon mind flayer got 5 epic feats, which makes no sense under the paragon template rules, which add only two bonus feats). It looks like it would lose 1 feat, and its skill rank maximum would remain much lower. Other than that it appears to get much more than it would from 15 class levels. So for most of its abilities the combination of the three templates will prove the minotaur with much better benefits than it would get from 15 class levels. As for the barbarian/frenzied berserker, I have used one before in this campaign. It was quite a while ago, so repeating it wouldn't have the effect of using it repeatedly in rapid succession, but it would still provide a rather familiar challenge. Edit: If he got 16 barbarian/frenzied berserker levels, and I added 3 of his 4 ability score increase to his Con, he would gain 174 hit points, 9 less than the 183 hit points from the three templates.
Needle 03-26-07, 03:12 AM	Hmm, i see. I'm not too up on the templates you mentioned, so forgive me if i assumed they were more '+8 Str and +4NA' type things :)
CelestialBarbarian 03-26-07, 03:23 AM	Hmm, i see. I'm not too up on the templates you mentioned, so forgive me if i assumed they were more '+8 Str and +4NA' type things :) No problem. The monster of legend grants a +10 increase to both Strength and Constitution, +6 to Dexterity, +4 to Charisma and +2 to Intelligence and Wisdom. The paragon template, however, befitting its epic status, grants a +15 increase to every ability score. And that's not even the best benefit of the paragon template. It has bonuses on all sorts of things flying left and right. It's pretty awesome. I neglected to even mention giving the epic minotaur the benefit of wealth according to its ECL. It might have, for instance, a +5 vorpal greataxe, a +5 amulet of mighty fists (for the gore attack), a +5 cloak of resistance, a +5 ring of protection, etc. I mean it might not have each and every one of these things, but the point is that the magic items appropriate for a CR 22 encounter would make it even more powerful than I calculated above. :) Edit: I missed two of its best abilities (both from the monster of legend template): 9i. It has a permanent spell turning supernatural ability in effect! 9j. It regrows lost extremities in one round, so a vorpal effect can't kill it
Morrowner 03-26-07, 11:53 AM	Take a minotaur. Give it 12 more HD. Throw Pseudonatural Monster of Legend on it and give it two size increases to Gargantuan. Yeah, that is going to be a pounding! Edit:Any you think the SR is nasty on your monster now? Aint no thing but a chicken wing, the Pseudonatural Minotaur would have SR 90! 378 HP, too. 68 Strength(Sweet Sassy Molassey!) Oh, and assuming that the gore attack is 3 bumps of the Gore Attack damage plus strength and a half the damage would be 8d6+42 at +55. Say full power attack/Leap attack/Powerful Lunge the damage goes to 8d6+228! I'm one sick puppy! Edit:Check out the Greathorn Minotaur in Monster Manual 4 if you have it.
Sylvaroth 03-26-07, 12:13 PM	Paragon Half-Fiend/Half-Greathorn Minotaur/Were-Dire Ox druid :D
CelestialBarbarian 03-26-07, 09:25 PM	Take a minotaur. Give it 12 more HD. Throw Pseudonatural Monster of Legend on it and give it two size increases to Gargantuan. Yeah, that is going to be a pounding! Edit:Any you think the SR is nasty on your monster now? Aint no thing but a chicken wing, the Pseudonatural Minotaur would have SR 90! 378 HP, too. 68 Strength(Sweet Sassy Molassey!) Oh, and assuming that the gore attack is 3 bumps of the Gore Attack damage plus strength and a half the damage would be 8d6+42 at +55. Say full power attack/Leap attack/Powerful Lunge the damage goes to 8d6+228! I'm one sick puppy! Edit:Check out the Greathorn Minotaur in Monster Manual 4 if you have it. I noticed the pseudonatural template, but I've always thought it fit better for something Cthulhuish. I've heard of the greathorn minotaur, but I don't have MM4. What's it like? Is it good enough to justify getting MM4? I'd though of just advancing the minotaur by monster hit dice, or partially by monster hit dice and then adding the paragon template.
CelestialBarbarian 03-26-07, 09:27 PM	Paragon Half-Fiend/Half-Greathorn Minotaur/Were-Dire Ox druid :D :rofl: