Epic Monsters: Which is it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Epic Monsters: Which is it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sken Dingle
09-12-05, 11:20 PM I read somewhere that any monster with class levels or HD over 20 uses epic save and attack advancement. BUT, in all the monster books, this is not true. The progression is normal.

I assume the books are right, but I just wanted to see if there was something I missed.

Thanks
Lyinginbedmon
09-13-05, 02:39 AM This was ruled during the days of V3.0, so it's possible that the books you're reading either were published as V3.5 or prior to the Epic Level Handbook, as little has changed since its publication.

I'd use the epic progressions when applicable
Sken Dingle
09-13-05, 03:13 AM That's confusing. I got these stats from MM3 and MM3.5. So you're saying I should ignore the NEW 3.5 books and use epic progression? 3.5 is the end all be all (tongue in cheek), so that's counter intuitive.
Morwen
09-13-05, 06:34 AM I believe you progress by racial hit dice until you're done with those, then you proceed to Epic progressions.

If you reach 21 HD by way of class levels (alone or in addition to racial levels) you proceed to Epic progressions right away.

Not sure if that's actually how it works, but your findings seem to imply that.
Sledged
09-13-05, 01:23 PM Here's how I've determined epic progression works based on the examples I've seen on WotC's site and the epic monsters in the SRD. Despite what the rules say, racial HD do not use epic progression for BAB and saves, but EAB and epic saves do apply to class levels after 20 HD/chracter level. And to give an example, here's the breakdown of the BAB and saves for Raulothim: Male great wyrm emerald dragon wizard 10 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20031119a): BAB Fort Ref Will
Dragon 20 +20 +12 +12 +12
Abilities +8 +1 +8
Feats +2

Pre-Epic Total +20 +20 +15 +20
Dragon 19 +19 +9 +9 +9
Wizard 10 +5 +5 +5 +5

Totals +44 +34 +29 +34If Raulothim were to age to the point of gaining 4 more racial HD, his BAB and Fort, Ref, and Will saves would increase by +4, +2, +2, and +2 respectively. (Some of his ability scores would increase, too, thus raising his saves even further.) Again, this may not be what the rules say, but it's how the developers do it.
Sken Dingle
09-13-05, 01:41 PM Though this is still not what the monster books say.

The Edritch Giant has 25 HD, and is not Epic progression. Then adding the 11 levels of cleric for the EG Confessor, still does not go into epic progression.

Is there an example anyone has from any of the 3.5 monster books?
Sledged
09-13-05, 05:14 PM Though this is still not what the monster books say.Disappointed, but not surprised.The Edritch Giant has 25 HD, and is not Epic progression. Then adding the 11 levels of cleric for the EG Confessor, still does not go into epic progression.Epic Progression
BAB Fort Ref Will
Giant 20 +15 +12 +6 +6
Abilities +11 0 +7
Feats +2
Natural Willpower +6

Pre-Epic Total +15 +23 +6 +21
Giant 5 +3 +2 +2 +2
Cleric 11 +6 +5 +5 +5

Totals +24 +30 +13 +28No Epic Progression
BAB Fort Ref Will
Giant 25 +18 +14 +8 +8
Abilities +11 0 +7
Feats +2
Natural Willpower +6
Cleric 11 +8 +7 +3 +7

Totals +26 +32 +11 +30Yup, you're right. The monster entries are inconsistant, the rules are inconsistant, the monster entries conflict with the rules, and the one place you'd want to see a monster entry with both class levels and racial HD totaling 21+ to help clear up the confusion is the ELH. And it doesn't list any such monsters.Is there an example anyone has from any of the 3.5 monster books?Yes, there's Jarl the Frost Giant in the 3.5 SRD/MM, and he doesn't follow epic advancement rules either.
Starmage21
09-13-05, 05:20 PM the answer to this may be viewed in the epic forums where the question has arised countless times.

The dark of it:

Monsters follow a progression dictated by their type for all their monstrous hit dice. A solar with 40 Hit Dice has +40 BAB; though he only has the maximum 4 melee attacks/round. He receives epic feats for his hit dice beyond 20HD (so the Solar straight out of the MM can have a feat replaced with an Epic feat legally).
Monsters with class levels use the epic progression for their class based bonuses after 20 class levels. A solar Fighter 14 has a BAB of +37, but a solar ftr 30 has BAB +43 w/ a +5 Epic Attack Bonus (for a total attack bonus of +48).
Sledged
09-13-05, 05:41 PM Monsters with class levels use the epic progression for their class based bonuses after 20 class levels.Then how do you deal with the Attack Bonus and saves a 21+ HD monster with no class levels that takes a level in an epic PrC, such as the Agent Retriever? It doesn't list a BAB or save progression.
Sken Dingle
09-13-05, 08:11 PM So this is a rule not supported by any of the current 3.5 books. That's good. Nice rule. Wizards must really believe in that rule.
Sledged
09-13-05, 11:45 PM So this is a rule not supported by any of the current 3.5 books.Pretty much.That's good. Nice rule. Wizards must really believe in that rule.To quote Derren S. (albeit a little out of context):monster + epic is screwed and [...] every DM should handle it like they want it as even WotC apparently has no idea what to do

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sken Dingle 09-12-05, 11:20 PM	I read somewhere that any monster with class levels or HD over 20 uses epic save and attack advancement. BUT, in all the monster books, this is not true. The progression is normal. I assume the books are right, but I just wanted to see if there was something I missed. Thanks
Lyinginbedmon 09-13-05, 02:39 AM	This was ruled during the days of V3.0, so it's possible that the books you're reading either were published as V3.5 or prior to the Epic Level Handbook, as little has changed since its publication. I'd use the epic progressions when applicable
Sken Dingle 09-13-05, 03:13 AM	That's confusing. I got these stats from MM3 and MM3.5. So you're saying I should ignore the NEW 3.5 books and use epic progression? 3.5 is the end all be all (tongue in cheek), so that's counter intuitive.
Morwen 09-13-05, 06:34 AM	I believe you progress by racial hit dice until you're done with those, then you proceed to Epic progressions. If you reach 21 HD by way of class levels (alone or in addition to racial levels) you proceed to Epic progressions right away. Not sure if that's actually how it works, but your findings seem to imply that.
Sledged 09-13-05, 01:23 PM	Here's how I've determined epic progression works based on the examples I've seen on WotC's site and the epic monsters in the SRD. Despite what the rules say, racial HD do not use epic progression for BAB and saves, but EAB and epic saves do apply to class levels after 20 HD/chracter level. And to give an example, here's the breakdown of the BAB and saves for Raulothim: Male great wyrm emerald dragon wizard 10 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20031119a): BAB Fort Ref Will Dragon 20 +20 +12 +12 +12 Abilities +8 +1 +8 Feats +2 Pre-Epic Total +20 +20 +15 +20 Dragon 19 +19 +9 +9 +9 Wizard 10 +5 +5 +5 +5 Totals +44 +34 +29 +34If Raulothim were to age to the point of gaining 4 more racial HD, his BAB and Fort, Ref, and Will saves would increase by +4, +2, +2, and +2 respectively. (Some of his ability scores would increase, too, thus raising his saves even further.) Again, this may not be what the rules say, but it's how the developers do it.
Sken Dingle 09-13-05, 01:41 PM	Though this is still not what the monster books say. The Edritch Giant has 25 HD, and is not Epic progression. Then adding the 11 levels of cleric for the EG Confessor, still does not go into epic progression. Is there an example anyone has from any of the 3.5 monster books?
Sledged 09-13-05, 05:14 PM	Though this is still not what the monster books say.Disappointed, but not surprised.The Edritch Giant has 25 HD, and is not Epic progression. Then adding the 11 levels of cleric for the EG Confessor, still does not go into epic progression.Epic Progression BAB Fort Ref Will Giant 20 +15 +12 +6 +6 Abilities +11 0 +7 Feats +2 Natural Willpower +6 Pre-Epic Total +15 +23 +6 +21 Giant 5 +3 +2 +2 +2 Cleric 11 +6 +5 +5 +5 Totals +24 +30 +13 +28No Epic Progression BAB Fort Ref Will Giant 25 +18 +14 +8 +8 Abilities +11 0 +7 Feats +2 Natural Willpower +6 Cleric 11 +8 +7 +3 +7 Totals +26 +32 +11 +30Yup, you're right. The monster entries are inconsistant, the rules are inconsistant, the monster entries conflict with the rules, and the one place you'd want to see a monster entry with both class levels and racial HD totaling 21+ to help clear up the confusion is the ELH. And it doesn't list any such monsters.Is there an example anyone has from any of the 3.5 monster books?Yes, there's Jarl the Frost Giant in the 3.5 SRD/MM, and he doesn't follow epic advancement rules either.
Starmage21 09-13-05, 05:20 PM	the answer to this may be viewed in the epic forums where the question has arised countless times. The dark of it: Monsters follow a progression dictated by their type for all their monstrous hit dice. A solar with 40 Hit Dice has +40 BAB; though he only has the maximum 4 melee attacks/round. He receives epic feats for his hit dice beyond 20HD (so the Solar straight out of the MM can have a feat replaced with an Epic feat legally). Monsters with class levels use the epic progression for their class based bonuses after 20 class levels. A solar Fighter 14 has a BAB of +37, but a solar ftr 30 has BAB +43 w/ a +5 Epic Attack Bonus (for a total attack bonus of +48).
Sledged 09-13-05, 05:41 PM	Monsters with class levels use the epic progression for their class based bonuses after 20 class levels.Then how do you deal with the Attack Bonus and saves a 21+ HD monster with no class levels that takes a level in an epic PrC, such as the Agent Retriever? It doesn't list a BAB or save progression.
Sken Dingle 09-13-05, 08:11 PM	So this is a rule not supported by any of the current 3.5 books. That's good. Nice rule. Wizards must really believe in that rule.
Sledged 09-13-05, 11:45 PM	So this is a rule not supported by any of the current 3.5 books.Pretty much.That's good. Nice rule. Wizards must really believe in that rule.To quote Derren S. (albeit a little out of context):monster + epic is screwed and [...] every DM should handle it like they want it as even WotC apparently has no idea what to do