Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CelestialBarbarian 07-19-05, 03:21 PM	According to the Epic Level Handbook, when you pass 20th level you no longer get an increase in your base attack bonus, but get instead a +1 epic attack bonus ever odd level. Yet the Monster Manual calculates the base attack bonus of outsiders and dragons with more than 20 hit points at an additional +1/level. Even the Epic Level Handbook continues the base attack bonus progression of +1/level for outsiders and dragons. So what if you're playing an astral deva under the Savage Species rules? At 20th level you have the full abilities of the standard astral deva from the Monster Manual. What do you do at 21st level? The Monster Manual shows astral deva advancement as 13-18 HD (medium); 19-36 (Large). Do you take another level of outsider, gain a d8 and (8+Intelligence modifier) skill points, and +1 BAB? What about the save bonuses? Do you get bonus feats like the ones that epic levels of standard character classes get? Or do you take some sort of class level, as though you had 20 regular class levels, and get an epic attack bonus of +1 and an epic save bonus of +0? Or can you choose between the two options? An astral deva has a BAB of only +12 at 20th level, and thus only three iterative attacks, so if the character can continue to advance as an outsider and gain +1 BAB/level, he can gain a fourth iterative attack (like a solar) at 24th level (16 HD). I suspect that if the authors of the Monster Manual had given an example of an advanced astral deva they would have done it this way, rather than using the epic attack bonus. What do you think?
Ged Coldplain 07-19-05, 07:26 PM	monsters do not use the epic progression system as far as i know... tired, might come with some useful input later, like in 10 hours
CelestialBarbarian 07-19-05, 11:00 PM	monsters do not use the epic progression system as far as i know... tired, might come with some useful input later, like in 10 hours Heh. :) I looked at the solar, and at the slaadi in Epic Level Handbook and they all appear to follow the epic level progression for saving throw bonuses (+1 every odd-numbered level).
Great Cthulhu 07-19-05, 11:13 PM	If I were you, I'd consider checking the errata on the EPH. :D
CelestialBarbarian 07-19-05, 11:17 PM	If I were you, I'd consider checking the errata on the EPH. :D Ok, I have checked it, and as for changes to the slaadi I find only the addition of Abyssal to their list of languages.
babysamurai 07-20-05, 06:51 AM	The only time you use the epic BAB and the epic Save bonus is when you have more than 20 class levels. Monster/HD levels keep progressing at their regular rate
CelestialBarbarian 07-20-05, 08:18 AM	The only time you use the epic BAB and the epic Save bonus is when you have more than 20 class levels. Monster/HD levels keep progressing at their regular rate Where do you find the rule? The saving throws of creatures with more than 20 racial hit dice do appear to use the epic save bonus rules. How does one handle a character that has a racial ECL of 20? Savage Species appears to indicate that once the character has reached its ECL (taken 20 levels in its racial class) it can take level in a regular class. If the creature would allow for advancement with more racial hit dice, does the player get to choose whether to advance with more racial hit dice or with regular class levels?
babysamurai 07-20-05, 11:26 AM	Where do you find the rule? The saving throws of creatures with more than 20 racial hit dice do appear to use the epic save bonus rules. How does one handle a character that has a racial ECL of 20? Savage Species appears to indicate that once the character has reached its ECL (taken 20 levels in its racial class) it can take level in a regular class. If the creature would allow for advancement with more racial hit dice, does the player get to choose whether to advance with more racial hit dice or with regular class levels? The rules for Monster attack & save bonuses is in the DMG. A creature that has gone through all of it's savage progression levels, can choose whether to gain more monster levels (if that's an option) or start gaining class levels (again if that's an option). Example: If a Medusa tops out at her maximum HD of 7, the only option she has is to gain class levels, since that particular creature cannot gain more monster levels. Whereas, a Pit Fiend can choose to gain more Outsider HD, or could choose to gain some Sorcerer levels (or whatever). Hope that helps.
Murazor 07-20-05, 11:52 AM	Heh. :) I looked at the solar, and at the slaadi in Epic Level Handbook and they all appear to follow the epic level progression for saving throw bonuses (+1 every odd-numbered level). Why would that be epic level progression? That's just their outsider-hitdice with all good saving throws.
Drachasor 07-20-05, 12:36 PM	I've noticed this oddity myself. It really is jus another example of how epic level play really doesn't work the further away you get from level 20. The game cannot be easily altered to handle numbers much, much, much larger than 20, since all rolls are d20 based. Sooner or later the area of variance (a range of 20 numbers) becomes so small relative to what you are adding that it is silly. Given the different ways to improve saves based on creature type, classes, etc, the breakdown happens even quicker. Frankly, the d20 system isn't all that scalable. Systems that use multiple dice (like White Wolf's) are more scalable theoretically, but in practical matters suffer at high numbers of dice which you have to roll. There's no easy solution to this problem, and it is because of this that Epic D&D really can't ever work very well without a fundamental change to the D&D resolution system as well as other tweaks to how saves and BAB are calculated. -Drachasor
CelestialBarbarian 07-20-05, 05:19 PM	I've noticed this oddity myself. It really is jus another example of how epic level play really doesn't work the further away you get from level 20. The game cannot be easily altered to handle numbers much, much, much larger than 20, since all rolls are d20 based. Sooner or later the area of variance (a range of 20 numbers) becomes so small relative to what you are adding that it is silly. Given the different ways to improve saves based on creature type, classes, etc, the breakdown happens even quicker. Frankly, the d20 system isn't all that scalable. Systems that use multiple dice (like White Wolf's) are more scalable theoretically, but in practical matters suffer at high numbers of dice which you have to roll. There's no easy solution to this problem, and it is because of this that Epic D&D really can't ever work very well without a fundamental change to the D&D resolution system as well as other tweaks to how saves and BAB are calculated. -Drachasor Yes, when, for instance, you're rolling a d20 to hit an armor class of 105. I must say on the other hand, however, that I played in one campaign that not only reached epic levels, but allowed the PCs to gain divine ranks. I had a half-celestial character who reached 27th level and a divine rank of 3. We quickly learned why gods don't answer every call for help they get--we never got a moment's rest! Allies we had made along the way were always calling us for help. We had to drop our planned destruction of an evil backup army of aberations in order to teleport into the middle of an army of evil dragons to save the vastly outnumbered good dragons as well as the gnomish city we'd adopted as our home. It was hectic, but it sure was fun! And don't think that just because we were epic-level characters and demigods that we didn't find it challenging or risk death. A half-dozen red dragons converged on our cleric and all breathed on him at the same time. Despite all his levels and even his divine benefits, he couldn't make a single one of the Reflex saves and they burned him to a tiny cinder! We brought him back temporarily with a revenance spell, and then later permanently with a true resurrection, so it wasn't the end of him, but frankly any high-level non-epic party with a cleric can do those things. Even my half-celestial, the party's hit-point monster, had a brush with death at that level. (Actually it was before he leveled up to 27, but you get the idea). The evil dragon forces had some artifact that was tunneling under the Dragonspire, designed to bring the whole good dragon fortress tumbling down. The good dragons had nobody to send out after it, so my half-celestial, Kirk, flew down the tunnel it had created laterally in the mountain under the fortress. He got into melee range and smote it a powerful blow--most of which didn't penetrate its damage reduction. It was giving off waves of energy which did about 250 points of damage to Kirk that round. I didn't think he could destroy the thing on the next round even with a full attack action, and it would probably have killed him with another 250 points of damage. So he said the name of the party's sorcerer, Veth, who with his high Charisma had the Divine Blast salient ability. Veth tuned in on his name and Kirk teleported out. Then Veth started blasting the artifact from a couple of miles away, and right through the mountain, with a Divine Blast each round. He did manage to destroy it eventually, before it had caused enough damage to bring down the whole mountain. It was tense and exciting, and a very near thing.
CelestialBarbarian 07-20-05, 05:25 PM	Why would that be epic level progression? That's just their outsider-hitdice with all good saving throws. The progression ends at 20 hit dice with +12 (for a good saving throw). These outsiders with more than 20 hit dice have an +1 for every 2 hit dice beyond 20, which is the epic save bonus progression.
CelestialBarbarian 07-20-05, 05:38 PM	The rules for Monster attack & save bonuses is in the DMG. A creature that has gone through all of it's savage progression levels, can choose whether to gain more monster levels (if that's an option) or start gaining class levels (again if that's an option). Example: If a Medusa tops out at her maximum HD of 7, the only option she has is to gain class levels, since that particular creature cannot gain more monster levels. Whereas, a Pit Fiend can choose to gain more Outsider HD, or could choose to gain some Sorcerer levels (or whatever). Hope that helps. Reading the back of the Monster Manual I can kind of see some of that, but I couldn't find the material you mentioned in the DMG. Could you direct me to the appropriate pages? Thanks! :)
Randvek 07-21-05, 12:28 AM	I believe that your ability to take Epic Feats, as well as your BA/Saves will be calculated based off of hit dice. I actually play an Epic Astral Deva/Paladin. I don't know how well this conforms to the RAW; it's a little sticky in that area. I do know, however, that said Angelic Paladin is perfectly balanced with other level 24 characters. He's gone lots of advantages, and quite a few disadvantages, too. As for why monsters in manuals seem to not follow the Epic progression is simple: they don't. You'll also notice that, no matter how high that dragon's base attack bouns gets, he never seems to get more than one attack with any of his weapons. Monsters are just funky like that. Hmm... hope that was helpful.
CelestialBarbarian 07-21-05, 01:55 AM	I believe that your ability to take Epic Feats, as well as your BA/Saves will be calculated based off of hit dice. I actually play an Epic Astral Deva/Paladin. I don't know how well this conforms to the RAW; it's a little sticky in that area. I do know, however, that said Angelic Paladin is perfectly balanced with other level 24 characters. He's gone lots of advantages, and quite a few disadvantages, too. As for why monsters in manuals seem to not follow the Epic progression is simple: they don't. You'll also notice that, no matter how high that dragon's base attack bouns gets, he never seems to get more than one attack with any of his weapons. Monsters are just funky like that. Hmm... hope that was helpful. Yes, well the rules specifically say that a creature doesn't get iterative attacks for BAB with natural weapons. I can't however find specific rules for what to do with a 20th-level character that has only 12 HD. Does your 24th-level astral deva have 20 levels of astral deva (12 hit dice) and 4 levels of paladin? Has he gotten a fourth iterative attack? Does he have access to epic feats? (It sounds like he doesn't.) What do you see as his advantages over the other characters? The disadvantages? It must be nice to add something like +5 to his saving throws from divine grace. Have you thought about giving him a level of monk and adding something like another +4 to his AC? :D I've read somewhere (probably in Dragon's "The Sage Column (and later imported to the D&D main FAQ) that any character with an ECL of 21+ has access to epic feats. After reading the various and sundry comments, I'm leaning in this direction: a character with an ECL of 21+ gains access to epic feats for his character-level feats (21st, 24th, 27th, etc.). If his race allows advancement by hit dice, he has the choice at each level above 20th of taking either another hit dice of his race's type (up to the maximum indicated by the Monster Manual or a regular class level. If he takes the racial level, he gets the hit die, skill points, BAB and base save progression of the racial type. If he takes the class level, he gets the hit die and skill points, but takes the epic attack and save progressions. How does that sound?
Freefall 07-21-05, 02:22 AM	The progression ends at 20 hit dice with +12 (for a good saving throw). These outsiders with more than 20 hit dice have an +1 for every 2 hit dice beyond 20, which is the epic save bonus progression. Look at the progression for good saves on page 22 in the Player's Handbook. The Epic Save progression is actually just an extension of this. You can see that the save bonus increases by one for each succeeding even number, which means +1 at 22 hd, another +1 at 24 hd, and so forth, just like the epic. They're the same thing. Outsiders and Monks basically follow the epic save progression from the begining.
runestar 07-21-05, 02:22 AM	The progression ends at 20 hit dice with +12 (for a good saving throw). These outsiders with more than 20 hit dice have an +1 for every 2 hit dice beyond 20, which is the epic save bonus progression. That's because outsiders use the monks save progression, which is +1 to all saves every 2 lvs, which coincidentally matches the epic save progression. I am sure you will have noticed this quirk with an epic monk as well. IIRC, a monster without class lvs will never benefit from epic progression(which may or may not be a a good thing).
babysamurai 07-21-05, 04:52 AM	Also, Celestial Barbarian, effective character level (ECL) has nothing to do with anything except starting wealth and XP to gain your next level. Everthing else (feats, attack bonus, saves, skills etc) is based off of Hit Dice (HD). And, as somebody else pointed out; Monsters never use the epic attack/save bonus uless they have more than 20 Class levels.
Gilean 07-21-05, 01:00 PM	LA doesn't matter. If do you use LA, remember that vampires have huge LA. A vampire with few levels above 10, CR around 16, could have an epic feat. That would not be balanced. Same applies to dragons and such. As said, epic save progression <--> good save progression, which monks, outsiders and dragons share.
Kurama Youko 07-21-05, 01:25 PM	The progression ends at 20 hit dice with +12 (for a good saving throw). These outsiders with more than 20 hit dice have an +1 for every 2 hit dice beyond 20, which is the epic save bonus progression. Incorrect, read the Monster Manual 3.5 on how to calculate Saving Throws for Monsters of Various Types. Outsiders have 3 good saves, if you look at the monk class as a example you'll see that every other lv the saves increase by one, This is how outsiders saves work as well, it has nothing to do with Epic Lv Progression. In Epic Lv characters SAVES DONT IMPROVE, they get a bonus to saving throws every odd lv. Tah-dah. Same goes with BAB. Certain monster types have different mechanics for calculating BAB, a Outsider has a BAB = to its outsider Hit Dice. A Epic lv character doesnt gain anymore BAB it gains a BONUS to BAB of plus 1 every other lv. Dragons are the same exact way as Outsiders in all of these regards. A Monsterous Character who has finished his Racial Progression can take class lvs. Once the Monster accumulates 20 class levels (including PrC) they follow the Epic rules for BAB and Saves should they take that next 21'st class lv. If at some later point after the 21'st class lv a monster decides to gain more racial hit dice (this option must be available.) they can do so and gain the normal benefits for advancing in there racial progression. Check the DMG 3.5 for Epic Monster Characters, and the Monster Manual 3.5 for calculating Saves and BAB for various monster types. The rules for Epic Lv progression were made for non exotic races in the most part, they werent exactly written with monsterous characters in mind. They developers have said before the reason why they stressed that fact that you ONLY Gain a BONUS to saves and BAB after your 20th class lv is because then game would break down to much and combat would become very drawn out with Fighters eventually making 20 attacks around before even using things like TWF or PrC features Like Thousand Cuts.
Kurama Youko 07-21-05, 01:37 PM	I dont think I made it clear enough. 1.) a 25th Level Monk has the following Saves: Fort 12+2 Ref 12+2 Will 12+2 the +2 represent the BONUS epic levels give to saving throws. The monks BASE save however never goes up after 20th lv. 2.) a 24 Hit Dice Outsider such as a Solar has the following Base Saves: Fort 14 Ref 14 Will 14. Their base Saves actually keep going up every even level because they arent subject to Epic level Progression until they have 21 class lvs. Even then they can always go back to their racial hit dice gaining the benefits of those hit dice as detailed in advancing monsters by hit dice in the monster manual 3.5 3.) a 25th Level Paladin has the following Base Attack Bonus: 20+3/15+3/10+3/5+3. The 3's represent the Epic BONUS to BAB obtained at various epic lvs. 4.) a 24 Hit Dice Outsider such as a Solar has the following BAB: 24/19/14/9 Outsiders BAB equals its hit dice. The end results are not the same, this Outsider has a better to Hit than the Paladin who has one more hit dice than he does. The Solar will only gain better to hits as the two continue to progress beyond 20th lv in their respective classes.
CelestialBarbarian 07-21-05, 02:20 PM	Can anyone provide me with specific page references? Thanks. :)
Kurama Youko 07-21-05, 03:31 PM	Page 206-207 of the DMG 3.5 for the rules on Epic Base Attack and Save bonuses and generally everything that deals with leveling up past 20th lv in a class/prc class. Download the FAQ from the main website, because despite what is said in the DMG 3.5 about Monsters as Epic Characters that is incorrect. The FAQ is answered by The Sage himself, and his word overrules even source books. When is a monster character considered epic level? Do you “go epic” when your total class levels equal 20 or when your total Hit Dice equal 20? Is a monster character eligible for epic-level feats (such as Epic Toughness) when its character level is 21+ or when its ECL is 21+? A monster becomes an epic-level character when its character level hits 21, just like any other character. A monster’s character level is equal to its racial Hit Dice + class levels. (See the second sidebar on page 25 of the Epic Level Handbook.) A creature’s ECL has no effect on when it becomes an epic character, although once it becomes an epic character, its ECL continues to affect how much experience it earns and when it can add a new level.
Kurama Youko 07-21-05, 03:34 PM	Okay, I kind of ran into a problem with that last post myself now. :( I'll see if anyone else can find out why I have run into a problem with it. Lets make this a game. :)
CelestialBarbarian 07-21-05, 06:39 PM	Page 206-207 of the DMG 3.5 for the rules on Epic Base Attack and Save bonuses and generally everything that deals with leveling up past 20th lv in a class/prc class. Download the FAQ from the main website, because despite what is said in the DMG 3.5 about Monsters as Epic Characters that is incorrect. The FAQ is answered by The Sage himself, and his word overrules even source books. I checked pages 206-207 of the DMG and didn't find anything about "Monsters as Epic Characters." I have the FAQ and I found the portion you quoted. How do we know that the Sage's answers overrule even the sourcesbooks? The Sage concludes essentially that effective character level does not equal character level. Based on what does he arrive at that conclusion? Thanks. :)
Kurama Youko 07-21-05, 06:50 PM	Never question the Sage!! lol He is all powerful and his word is considered law. :D Pg 206-207 tell you that the bonuses obtained at 21st lv and beyond arent actually increases to BAB or Saves but rather they are bonuses, thats why i refered you to those pages. The sage says that Racial Hit Dice and Class levels make up your character level and thus when you are epic. The only thing I can add is that if a Monster has more than 20 Racial Hit Dice is that it is considered Epic after the 20th Hit Dice when determining when it can gain a Epic Feat. Non PC played Monsters can apparently keep gaining BAB and Saves normally, while PC Monsters are Epic for the purpose of Epic Feat qualification at 20 Hit Dice (Racial HD + Class HD). When do they use Epic Saves and BAB.. I admit, after reviewing the material there is no clear indication. The Passage about this given on Page 209 of the DMG is wrong as far as I can tell because it would be to debilitating. I would just have to say that you can do 1 of 2 things. Start Using Epic Saves and BAB bonuses for PC Monster Characters when their Character Levels equal 21 or more. (Racial Hit Dice + Class Hit Dice.) or Start Using Epic Saves and BAB bonuses for PC Monster Characters when they have 21 or more Class Levels in whatever combination of classes and or PrC's. But normal monsters who are advanced with racial hit dice do not follow the rules for Epic lv Progression.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 07-21-05, 07:40 PM	Pg 206-207 tell you that the bonuses obtained at 21st lv and beyond arent actually increases to BAB or Saves but rather they are bonuses, thats why i refered you to those pages. Although for the purposes of Feats and PrCs, they are increases.