Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Keenath 08-02-07, 11:15 AM	I've thought for a long time that Chromatic dragons got screwed. The metallics all have a secondary "less lethal" breath weapon; the evil dragons don't get that benefit. On one hand, adding a new effect does represent a power increase; it means the dragon can attack a new save, and cause new status conditions. On the other hand, each use of the secondary weapon means a turn not spent using other attacks. And it drains a use of the breath weapon, which is a significant cost (using your damaging weapon, say, only twice instead of three times during a battle). Furthermore, "attacking a different save" is maybe not as big a deal as it seems at first, considering that a dragon of significant age could use spell slots to do the same thing. And last, while a good dragon is likely to use his non-lethal breath weapon to put an end to a battle without killing, an evil dragon is more likely to use his secondary weapon to inhibit its enemies, and then use that weakness to deal extra damage. For this last reason, while I created new breath weapons for the evil dragons, I tried to avoid anything that's unduly dangerous. For example, the silver's paralysis or the brassie's sleep breath would be horrible in the hands of an evil creature -- make your enemies helpless and then CDG them one at a time with a bite... or just use your breath weapon again when it recharges, hitting the helpless opponents at a huge reflex penalty. So, I tried to find weapons that would be 1) Useful to the dragon with respect to its primary tactics; 2) Complimentary to the dragon's flavor (no, chromatic dragons do not taste like Skittles); and 3) A penalty to the targets, but not unduly deadly. Edit: Oh yeah. And 4) It doesn't duplicate any of the existing secondary breath weapons. Here's what I came up with... White - White dragons have two types of breath weapon, a cone of cold and a cone of tiring gas. Creatures within the cone must succeed on a Fortitude save or become fatigued for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per age category of the dragon. Creatures that are already fatigued are exhausted for the duration of this effect. Notes: This follows the concept of cold and freezing, of course, and while it's a little weak, it's a good long duration. This weapon stacks nicely with their environment and ambush-predator style, too -- any creature that takes nonlethal damage from cold weather is fatigued, so the dragon waits until the targets are tired and cold, then attacks from hiding, opening with a breath weapon that can further inhibit those who are already having trouble with the weather. Black - Black dragons have two types of breath weapon, a line of acid and a cone of toxic gas. Creatures within the cone must succeed on a Fortitude save or become nauseated for 1 round per age category of the dragon. Notes: This is more or less equivalent to the Bronze's repulsion gas. While it doesn't force you to move in any particular direction, nausea is effectively non-helpless turn loss, which falls in the same general category. And it fits the corruption/poison/disease flavor of liquorice dragons, of course. Blue - Blue dragons have two types of breath weapon, a line of lightning and a cone of mirage gas. Creatures within the cone must succeed on a will save or become confused for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per age category of the dragon. Notes: I don't like confusion much, in general, as a status effect, but it fits too well in this case. A dragon maybe does better than most creatures with it, too; if it takes to the air or burrows just after using the confuse gas, any "attack closest creature" results are guranteed to hit the target's allies rather than attacking the dragon (which they probably were going to do anyway), and "attack caster" results might not be able to reach. Green - Green dragons have two types of breath weapon, a cone of corrosive (acid) gas and a cone of blinding gas. Creatures within the cone must succeed on a fortitude save or become blinded for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per age category of the dragon. Notes: I kind of like the idea of a dragon that can spit teargas, and it totally fits with the Green, who smells like a shocked pool anyway. Red - Red dragons have two types of breath weapon, a cone of fire and a cone of beguiling gas. Creatures within the cone must succeed on a will save or take a -4 penalty on Will saves, Wisdom checks, and Wisdom-based skill checks for 1 round per age category of the dragon. This effect does not stack with itself. Notes: This is the one I was most unsure of, but I think I got it to work pretty well. It's sort of a minor Mind Fog effect that makes the intimidating, manipulative Red dragon even better at those. Follow up this weapon with Charm or Dominate spells, a Suggestion spell-like ability, or just Intimidate, Bluff, and such! So -- what do you think?
Talisman 08-02-07, 11:47 AM	Let me start by saying that I actually dislike the secondary breath weapons of the metallics. I understand them mechanically, but c'mon! Dragons breathe fire, ice, acid or poison! IMHO, they detract from the "mythic" feel of these great beasts. That being said... White-Fatigue: I get your reasoning, and the effect makes sense. Not bad, but a little bit of a stretch. Black-Nausea: Excellent. This is the first secondary breath I've seen that I totally agree with. Blue-Mirage: Ehh...I dunno. I see where you're going, and I think the effect is okay mechanically, but...:nonono: Dazzled fits better, but it's a pretty weak effect. Maybe dazed? Green-Tear Gas: Not bad. It's a little potent, but I can see it working. Red-Beguiling: :nonono: I understand your reasoning, but I just don't like this one. "The dragon breathes gas on you...and suddenly, what he says makes a lot of sense!" Unfortunately, I've got no alternative ideas just now.\ Even though I'm not sold on the idea, I appreciate that these are well thought-out and make sense. Good on you.:D
skydin 08-02-07, 11:59 AM	also, maybe the evil dragon wants to end it without killing them, so he can keep them as 'pets' for all sorts of thigns that are nice for him, and make them scream.
Draginja 08-02-07, 12:29 PM	Red-Beguiling: :nonono: I understand your reasoning, but I just don't like this one. "The dragon breathes gas on you...and suddenly, what he says makes a lot of sense!" Unfortunately, I've got no alternative ideas just now.\ The way you say it, the dragon sounds retarded. Much like people talk about blackmail as a bad thing... Anyway, I'm sure the event would go something like this... DM:The dragon breathes a cloud of gas at you, and your mind seems thick and clouded. Suddenly, a strikingly clear voice echoes in your head, and you realise that the bard actually did spend the evening with your wife. Fighter: YOU SPOONY BARD! (attacks bard.) Red Dragon:Muahaha.
Morwen 08-02-07, 07:41 PM	One quick way to make the chromatic dragons closer in power to the metallic ones would be to allow all of them to take cleric spells (currently, only blue and red get cleric spells among the chromatics, while all the metallics get them).
Keenath 08-02-07, 08:36 PM	DM:The dragon breathes a cloud of gas at you, and your mind seems thick and clouded. Suddenly, a strikingly clear voice echoes in your head, and you realise that the bard actually did spend the evening with your wife.I was thinking more along the lines of "The dragon exhales a cloud of thin, dark gas, and your head starts to feel heavy and slow, as if stuffed with cotton." A little later -- "The dragon roars, and it seems to grow larger, more fearsome -- you need to get out of here!" It's an enhancement to the effects a dragon already has. But, yes, the Red was the hardest one to come up with a decent secondary for. If you have good suggestions for an alternate, I'm happy to listen; my only comment is that I tried not to duplicate the existing alternate breath weapons (in addition to the aforementioned limitations).
Draginja 08-02-07, 08:41 PM	Your version makes it sound like the dragon-RED dragon-tries to scare away it's prey. My version makes it sound like the dragon makes them more susceptable to it's mind-influencing spells, thus using the party's own resources against them. (And by resources I of course mean main melee fighter/tank/meat shield...) My version is based off of a Feeblemind spell I once cast on the party fighter, combined with an admixture of modify memory and suggestion. I really hated that bard...
Keenath 08-02-07, 08:43 PM	One quick way to make the chromatic dragons closer in power to the metallic ones would be to allow all of them to take cleric spells (currently, only blue and red get cleric spells among the chromatics, while all the metallics get them). Seems like you missed the point a bit. I'm not saying I think chromas are underpowered; not at all. As I said above, I don't think a secondary weapon actually represents a major power change. My goal is more of just to add some new, more interesting breath weapon uses. I think it gets a little old after a while, throwing out the same old elemental breath weapon every time it's available.
Keenath 08-02-07, 08:46 PM	Your version makes it sound like the dragon-RED dragon-tries to scare away it's prey. My version makes it sound like the dragon makes them more susceptable to it's mind-influencing spells, thus using the party's own resources against them. (And by resources I of course mean main melee fighter/tank/meat shield...)Well, certainly, it's ANY will save that's being nerfed. It makes fear effects more potent; spells more likely to succeed; and the dragon's speech more convincing. Anyway, I'm not sure a red dragon WOULDN'T try to leverage his fearsomeness to get rid of enemies. Humans are lousy food, and when the kingdom's best come back running scared, that's a good time to start suggesting concepts like tribute. He's a LAWFUL evil dragon, after all -- leave it to Whitey to go for the straight up pounce-and-eat routine.
Talisman 08-02-07, 11:09 PM	He's a LAWFUL evil dragon, after all -- leave it to Whitey to go for the straight up pounce-and-eat routine. Um...red dragons are some of the most profoundly chaotic evil creatures this side of the Abyss. Of the chromo's, only blue and green are lawful (yet for some reason, their goddess is lawful :thinks: )
Keenath 08-03-07, 09:25 AM	Aww, crap. Teach me to talk before I check it in the SRD. I was thinking of greens, yes. Le sigh. Well, damn. That will-sapping stuff was sorta based on the idea that these are lawful dragons. Gonna have to come up with something else...
Johnny_Angel 08-03-07, 10:27 AM	RED: Burnination: The red dragon can spend a full round action to hit one target with a concentrated burst of its flame breath weapon. This ability manifests as a 5 foot wide line with a range dependent upon the age category of the dragon; it starts at 5 feet and increases by 5 feet for every age category the dragon has. A creature hit by burnination takes twice the amount of damage that the creature normally would take from the dragon's normal breath weapon; the creature may still make a reflex save for half damage as normal for defending against breath weapons. A red dragon of the adult category or older may concentrate its breath even more in order to use burnination to attempt to sunder (via melting) a creature's equipment. If the dragon uses the breath in this manner, the creature is still entitled to a reflex save. If the creature fails the reflex save, the item which the dragon was aiming for takes 10 points of melting damage; the creature also takes damage as normal for being hit with the burnination effect.
Aubri 08-03-07, 11:48 AM	OK, two things: First, damage on top of damage isn't a very interesting ability. Dragons are fast enough that he'd almost never want to use his standard cone breath weapon. In any case, dragons don't exactly need yet another way to deal damage. Second, that's already the special ability of wingaling dragons. :D
Asra 08-03-07, 01:18 PM	Also, Red Dragons do enjoy eating humanoids. Especially young female humanoids, according to the flavor text. Perhaps you could just give the red dragons the confusing breath, since confusion and lighting things on fire sounds pretty chaotic.
Terraneaux 08-03-07, 05:10 PM	Ummm... If a red dragon needs to confuse somebody, it can use its SLA's or spellcasting. Besides, unless a dragon is pyroclastic, its breath weapon is one of its weakest abilities anyway. In 3.X dragons are the kings of melee, not breath weapons.
Korone 08-03-07, 06:33 PM	While I have no real suggestion for secondary breath weapons, to make chromatics on par with metallic, is to bump one of them as a 'greater' dragon, in my opinion. Metallic have the gold and silver dragon as greater ones, while the chromatics only have the red, I'd make the blue one a greater dragon like these three.
HuManBing 08-03-07, 06:54 PM	For some reason, I'm thinking a breath weapon that slows enemies, perhaps using a sonic energy type, would suit Red Dragons.
Dazzer 08-03-07, 07:10 PM	Where Chromatics actually lose, with the exception of the Red, is spellcasting. Check out WHEN the dragon gets access, and you'll find a trend. Age Catagory 3: All the Metallic, and Red Age Catagory 4: Blue and Green Age Catagory 5: Black Age Catagory 6: White This and a significant reduction in caster level for all the dragons. All metallic dragons end up with 9th level spells, two breath weapons (The stat-effecting one is usually the trump card when it comes to these). They also generally have better spell-likes. Additionally, the Silver Dragon has TWO energy immunities instead of just one. This and the ability to choose cleric spells, makes all chromatics except the blue and red seem like pansies, they realistically can't really put up a good fight against an equal age catagory (starting at age catagory 4) metallic (except brass, since the secondary sleep breath all dragons are immune to). The damaging breath weapon, albeit it can be very effective, is generally not as good as a full-round attack is. With a good full-attack with feats to back it up, any dragon can knock out a single party member in one or two rounds. with a good breath weapon, maybe, MAYBE, the wizard goes down. My suggestion for the secondary breaths for chromatic go like this btw. White: Fatigue (1d6 + 1/age catagory rounds) (fort) (line) Fatigues those that fail their save, previously fatigued creatures are now exhausted. The breath weapon can stack with itself to determine fatigue then exhaustion. Black: Nauseating (1d6 +1/age catagory rounds) (fort) (cone) Nauseates those that fail their saving throw. Green: Charming (1d6 +1/age catagory rounds) (will) (line) Creatures are effected by a charm person spell, and see the dragon as a friend, rather then an enemy. They receive a second save if the dragon attempts to hurt an ally, and automatically break if the dragon tries to hurt them. While charmed a character may not take direct hostile actions towards the dragon but they are not forced to aid the dragon either unless further charmed by some other means to do so. Creatures take a -2 penalty on will saves vs. enchantment (charm) and (compulsion) effects created by the dragon for the duration (for example, dominate) Blue: Stunning Breath (1d6 +1/age catagory rounds) (fort) (cone) Creatures in the effected area are stunned for the duration of the breath weapon if they fail a save. Red: Awing Breath (1d6 +1/age catagory rounds) (will) (cone) Creatures in the area are fascinated by the dragon's magnificence. Treat them as fascinated with the following exception. Hostile actions towards a character other than the effected person, do not allow additional saving throws. Only direct hostile action towards the effected creature breaks the effect. Another creature may use a standard action to grant an effected victim another saving throw at the same DC. Otherwise for the duration, treat as fascinated with the above changes.
Keenath 08-03-07, 09:07 PM	The damaging breath weapon, albeit it can be very effective, is generally not as good as a full-round attack is. With a good full-attack with feats to back it up, any dragon can knock out a single party member in one or two rounds. with a good breath weapon, maybe, MAYBE, the wizard goes down.If you're only interested in how many people fall over, yeah, full attacks are better. But spread across four, five, or six party members -- the breath weapon is quite likely to hit more than one, which multiplies its total damage output. On one hand, dropping a party member is definitely good for the dragon, but on the other hand, unless you actually pull them down to -10, there's a good chance they'll be back at you in a second. Concentrated damage can be removed by concentrated healing, such as a Cure Critical or Heal. Spreading out that damage among many allies has two benefits -- first, it makes the party less aware of the extent of their damage, because each person might say, "Well, I'm still at 60%...". Second, it makes it harder to heal off; mass effects are rare and much weaker than their single-target bretheren. Anyway. I had an interesting idea for the Red's breath weapon; how about a "Terror gas" or similar -- if you fail your will save against it, each turn for 1d6+X turns, if you're inside the dragon's fear aura radius (whether you've saved against it or not), you have to make a save against the fear aura or be Frightened for one turn and flee the dragon at top speed (or cower). Seems to me that fits with A) the red as really scary, most powerful evil dragon; B) Reds who like to play with their food and extract as much fear as possible; and C) A penalty that affects the party, but doesn't totally destroy their ability to fight. White: Fatigue (1d6 + 1/age catagory rounds) (fort) (line) Fatigues those that fail their save, previously fatigued creatures are now exhausted. The breath weapon can stack with itself to determine fatigue then exhaustion. Why a line? All the secondary weapons are gas-cones -- is there a compelling reason to change it? And it doesn't really seem to even make sense anyway... What's he shooting that would be cohesive enough to stay in a line? Green: Charming (1d6 +1/age catagory rounds) (will) (line) Creatures are effected by a charm person spell, and see the dragon as a friend, rather then an enemy. I dunno... Greens already have Suggestion and Dominate -- doesn't adding a Charm effect seem to go overboard on the "dance, my puppets!" side of things? Blue: Stunning Breath (1d6 +1/age catagory rounds) (fort) (cone) Creatures in the effected area are stunned for the duration of the breath weapon if they fail a save.This was my first thought for what to give the blue, but I decided against it primarily because it's such a party-killer. You can easily lose two or more party members for 5 or more rounds, and if that happens -- you'd better just retreat (unless you have some sorta magical stun defense, or an alert and prepared cleric). I stayed away from strong character removal attacks in my work, just because it's so devastating. Do a test battle against a Brassie or a Silver if you wanna see what I mean. Red: Awing Breath (1d6 +1/age catagory rounds) (will) (cone) Creatures in the area are fascinated by the dragon's magnificence. Treat them as fascinated with the following exception. Hostile actions towards a character other than the effected person, do not allow additional saving throws. Only direct hostile action towards the effected creature breaks the effect. Another creature may use a standard action to grant an effected victim another saving throw at the same DC. Otherwise for the duration, treat as fascinated with the above changes.I tried to put together something on this line myself, but I never could get it to work well without being massively complicated and/or a party-killer. Once again, this is a mass-removal effect, which is a good way to put even a good party into TPK territory.
stunspore 08-05-07, 01:03 PM	Fatigue for white is good. I would base blue on effects from lightning - either deafen (thunder) or blind (flash). Or an EMP like burst from the mouth. Green used to be chlorine gas attack, but I sort of like the effects from Rith the Awakener in magic. How about an entangle effect from quick growing plants, which die and wither to dust in a few rounds? Nauseating attack for black is ok, since swamps stinks. Or even a drowning effect, as the gas displaces oxygen? Noxious gas can also create hallucinations Red is harder, but considering that it is usually associated with sulphur (which stinks) then how about nauseating (if black has something else) or dehydrating dry heated air breath? Dealing some constitution dmg or exhaustation?
Keenath 08-06-07, 11:16 AM	Fatigue for white is good. I would base blue on effects from lightning - either deafen (thunder) or blind (flash). Or an EMP like burst from the mouth.I tried some of that out, but I think it's better to stay away from the whole thunder-and-lightning thing when the monster already has lightning breath. Going by the Metallic alt breath weapons, they should probably reflect the monster's flavor in some OTHER way than just more-of-the-same elemental attacks. Green used to be chlorine gas attack, but I sort of like the effects from Rith the Awakener in magic. How about an entangle effect from quick growing plants, which die and wither to dust in a few rounds? What do you mean "used to be"? It still has the caustic gas, this is in addition to it. I'm not sure how plant growth relates to breath, but it's probably not a great idea simply because it's a very weak effect. Most of the breath effects are 3rd to 4th spell-level-equivalent; entangle is a 1st level spell with a long duration (and thus not as good if it's a 1d6+X round effect) -- I can't see any way to upgrade that to something decent without totally changing the mechanic. And anyway, the Green has plant growth already, which is far superior for the purpose of battlefield control. And it does a better job of what you're talking about -- which still doesn't really match Rith, who actually creates plant creatures. Anyway. I rather like the White, Black, and Green as they are; it's the Blue and Red I'm considering alternate ideas for. Nauseating attack for black is ok, since swamps stinks.Not just that "a swamp stinks", but black dragons are clearly related to decay and corruption. Or even a drowning effect, as the gas displaces oxygen?TPK much? Drowning tends to be very unpredictable -- it either does absolutely nothing, causing virtually no problem for the PCs -- or it kills somebody outright. Noxious gas can also create hallucinationsI prefer the nausea. Red is harder, but considering that it is usually associated with sulphur (which stinks) then how about nauseating (if black has something else) or dehydrating dry heated air breath? Dealing some constitution dmg or exhaustation?Sulfur doesn't smell THAT bad. It's only mildly unpleasant; I don't think it'd cause anyone to double over with sickness. Dehydration is a possibility, but I'm not sure a red is really that kind of heat. Reds strike me as related to the volcanic sort of searing heat, not desert-dryness. I don't know.
Keenath 08-06-07, 11:18 AM	double post... :P