Erynes (Devil), Advanced [Archive] - Wizards Community

Erynes (Devil), Advanced [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kilsek of Sheverash
03-07-04, 04:37 PM I'm looking to provide a stiff ranged opponent and challenge to a group of early epic level PCs in the campaign finale.

I thought some advanced Erynes devils would be perfect.

I've advanced her below, pls let me know if anything looks like it was done wrong, as it's a pretty complicated process to advance creatures sometimes. Giving her 12 levels of fighter made her Epic, which was the perfect opportunity for one specific epic feat: Swarm of Arrows.

The format is the same as monters listed in the SRD, without the labels on the left, but most are easy to figure out (i.e. when feats are listed, that's obviously the feats section).

Thank you!

------------------------------->

ERYNES (Devil), Advanced

Medium Outsider, Advanced (Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful) [+Ftr 12]
[21 HD (232 hp] = 9d8+54 (94 hp) + 12d10+72 (138 hp) = hp range 147-318
+13 (Dex +9, Improved Initiative +4)
30 ft. (6 squares), fly 50 ft. (good)
27 (+9 Dex, +8 natural) touch 19, flat-footed 18

+21*/+28*
MELEE: Longsword +28 (1d8+7/19–20) or
RANGE: +5 flaming burst longbow (+7 Str bonus) +37 [+21 B +9 D, +2 Foci, +5 Magic] (1d8+16/19-20x3 +1d6 fire, +2d10 fire on critical) or rope +29 (entangle)
MELEE: Longsword +28/+23/+18+13 melee (1d8+7/19–20) or
RANGE: +5 flaming burst longbow (+7 Str bonus) +37/+32/+27/+22 (1d8+16/19-20x3 +1d6 fire, +2d10 fire on critical) or rope +29 (entangle)

5 ft./5 ft.
Entangle, spell-like abilities, summon devil
Damage reduction 5/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, see in darkness, spell resistance 31**, telepathy 100 ft., true seeing

Fort +21, Ref +21, Will +18
[Good Base Saves 9th: F +6, R +6, W +6] [Ftr 12: F+7*, R+4, W +4] [Feats: +2 to F, R, W]
Str 24 (+7), Dex 28 (+9), Con 23 (+6), Int 12 (+1), Wis 18 (+4), Cha 22 (+6)
[Elite Array: S 14, D 18(15), C 13, I 8, W 10, Ch 12] [+3 Dex @ 12, 16, 20 HD]
[Ability Modifiers: S +10, D +10, C +10, I +4, W +8, Ch +10]

[9 Skills @ Max Ranks of 24] Concentration +30, Diplomacy +30, Escape Artist +9, Hide +9, Knowledge (Planes) +25, Knowledge (Arcana) +25, Listen +28, Move Silently +9, Search +1, Sense Motive +28, Spot +28, Survival +28 (+30 following tracks), Use Rope +33 (+35 with bindings)

[16: 1 Epic +7 Normal +2 Bonus Feats +6 Bonus Ftr Feats] DodgeB, MobilityB, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run [] Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will []Weapon Focus: Longbow, Greater Weapon Focus: Longbow, Weapon Specialization: Longbow, Greater Weapon Specialization: Longbow, Improved Critical: Longbow, Improved Initiative [] Epic: Swarm of Arrows

A lawful evil-aligned plane
Solitary
20
Standard, plus rope and +5 flaming burst composite longbow (+7 Str bonus)
Always lawful evil
10–18 HD (Medium)
--
*indicates Epic modifiers included.
**corrected to SR 31 from originally posted SR 20. Thx to d_nychus!

Entangle (Ex): Each erinyes carries a stout rope some 50 feet long that entangles opponents of any size as an animate rope spell (caster level 16th). An erinyes can hurl its rope 30 feet with no range penalty. Typically, an erinyes entangles a foe, lifts it into the air, and drops it from a great height.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), charm monster (DC 20/19 advanced/normal), minor image (DC 18/17 advanced/normal), unholy blight (DC 20/19 advanced/normal). Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Summon Devil (Sp): Once per day an erinyes can attempt to summon 2d10 lemures or 1d4 bearded devils with a 50% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell.
True Seeing (Su): Erinyes continuously use true seeing, as the spell (caster level 14th).

Edits (2): Added the three abilities just above, and corrected SR.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
03-08-04, 05:13 PM Epic modifiers to attack and saves don't come into play until you get 21 levels in character classes.
Kingrames
03-08-04, 06:44 PM Make a prestige class, and you can make her an epic class.
But Erinyes are fun.

you might think of something like "Demonslayer", a demon killing archer prestige class.
Kingrames
03-08-04, 06:49 PM Originally posted by Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
Epic modifiers to attack and saves don't come into play until you get 21 levels in character classes.

I think your hit dice plus your character clas have to be 21+, because there are some monsters with epic feats and they obviously don't have 21+ levels in a character class.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
03-09-04, 12:06 AM Originally posted by Kingrames
I think your hit dice plus your character clas have to be 21+, because there are some monsters with epic feats and they obviously don't have 21+ levels in a character class.

I said saves and attacks, not epic feats.
Craith
03-09-04, 08:27 AM IIRC Epic Attack Boni/ Epic Save Boni are used when your HD are > 21 and you DON'T increase Monster HD
Monster HD always use their Pre-Epic BAB advancement (but can't get more than 4 iterative attacks)

Craith
d_nychus
03-09-04, 09:32 AM Well, as a CR 20 NPC-like character, I think it would have more possessions. The books are a little muddled on this, but I would use the NPC chart and give it a few more items. You only spent 99,100 gold out of 220,000 gold available. Of course, if you went by the Epic rules and used it as an ECL 28 NPC, you would have a LOT more gold to deal with, 470,000 gold to be exact. That seems a little excessive to me, but it might be appropriate.

Personally, I would include some armor of some kind, since an AC of 27 is really....useless as a CR 20 encounter. Frankly, as is, I am seeing this lady being able to dish out the flaming damage, but not being able to take it in return, even with her hp that high. Maybe some bracers or a claok of displacement, or something to boost her AC into the high 30's, just so that the PC's miss every once and a while.

Other than that, I think you did a pretty good job.
Kilsek of Sheverash
03-09-04, 10:52 AM The rules say a character is "Epic" at 21st character level, which is what the advanced Erynes here is: 9 HD of Outsider (its base) +12 Fighter levels.

So, I included a +1 Epic Attack Bonus, and +0 Save bonus, since the advanced Erynes is 21st level and that's what you get at those levels.

If I'm wrong, pls point out where in the rules it explains I'm off on this, I'd appreciate it :)
Kilsek of Sheverash
03-09-04, 11:21 AM Originally posted by d_nychus
Well, as a CR 20 NPC-like character, I think it would have more possessions. The books are a little muddled on this, but I would use the NPC chart and give it a few more items. You only spent 99,100 gold out of 220,000 gold available. Of course, if you went by the Epic rules and used it as an ECL 28 NPC, you would have a LOT more gold to deal with, 470,000 gold to be exact. That seems a little excessive to me, but it might be appropriate.

Yeah, I knew the improved version of the magic bow I gave it was a decent chunk of its allowed GPV in gear. I didn't realize the +5 flaming burst bow was only about ~33% of the GP pool value, however. Part of me also had concerns about its Challenge Rating if I gave it more and more powerful magic items. Then again, that *IS* supposed to be built into the rules and its CR anyway - whether it's CR 9 or 20 - so I guess I shouldn't worry about it.

I'm a little confused where the advanced Erynes as a "monster" ends and the advanced Erynes as an "NPC" begins, which you allude to? The Epic GPV in gear was startling too. I hadn't even considered looking at the creature's GPV in gear from the ELH. Huge difference in value! And yet the CR would remain the same? Or no?

Originally posted by d_nychus
Personally, I would include some armor of some kind, since an AC of 27 is really....useless as a CR 20 encounter. Frankly, as is, I am seeing this lady being able to dish out the flaming damage, but not being able to take it in return, even with her hp that high. Maybe some bracers or a claok of displacement, or something to boost her AC into the high 30's, just so that the PC's miss every once and a while.

When I finished, there were three weaknesses I saw in the advanced Erynes: 1) Armor Class, 2) Spell Resistance, and 3) Melee Prowess.

#1 Armor Class: can be easily fixed with gear, good suggestions. Bracers and a cloak of displacement sound quite good actually, and easily within the GPV limit in gear. Makes it more challenging for the warrior-types to hit her.

#2 Spell Resistance: I was disappointed in her SR of 20, and according to the advancement to the rules, saw NO way to improve it either. This certainly makes her an easier challenge for the spellcasters than I thought, but OTOH her saves are all strong and around +20, so perhaps it won't be so bad.

#3 Melee Prowess: Not a big deal bc she's a master of the bow, with great supporting feats, including that pretty terrifying Swarm of Arrows epic feat that can be used continuously in every round of combat. A Swarm of Advanced Erynes + Swarms of Swarm of Arrows... :eek: ...

:OMG!:
Originally posted by d_nychus
Other than that, I think you did a pretty good job.

:) Thank you. And your feedback was GREAT, thanks for that!
d_nychus
03-09-04, 11:54 AM Originally posted by Kilsek of Sheverash
Yeah, I knew the improved version of the magic bow I gave it was a decent chunk of its allowed GPV in gear. I didn't realize the +5 flaming burst bow was only about ~33% of the GP pool value, however. Part of me also had concerns about its Challenge Rating if I gave it more and more powerful magic items. Then again, that *IS* supposed to be built into the rules and its CR anyway - whether it's CR 9 or 20 - so I guess I shouldn't worry about it.

I'm a little confused where the advanced Erynes as a "monster" ends and the advanced Erynes as an "NPC" begins, which you allude to? The Epic GPV in gear was startling too. I hadn't even considered looking at the creature's GPV in gear from the ELH. Huge difference in value! And yet the CR would remain the same? Or no?

Personally, I'm confused as well. I am certain that this lady archer would not have the gear of a mere 12th level fighter. I am certain that the gear for a CR 20 NPC would be enough, but if one goes by the little blurb in the back of the 3.5 MM for monsters that advance by character class (which yours does now, since you have added levels) it should have the gear of a 28th level NPC...which I would be hesitant to give. (page 291, very first para)

The main reason is that the PC's would defeat a CR 20 creature, and get the treasure of a 28th level character. That's just a little excessive.

Originally posted by Kilsek of Sheverash
#2 Spell Resistance: I was disappointed in her SR of 20, and according to the advancement to the rules, saw NO way to improve it either. This certainly makes her an easier challenge for the spellcasters than I thought, but OTOH her saves are all strong and around +20, so perhaps it won't be so bad.

WEll, then I got good news for you. You're wrong!! :D

But its the good kind of wrong, at least. ;)

Heh, I had to double check myself, but when a creature has SR, it usually has an SR equal to its CR + 11. This is calculated after the CR is calculated. (page 300, the Behind the Curtain section) So Tweety's SR here should be 31, by the rules.

In case you have any doubts, note that the Hound Archon Hero has SR 11 points higher a regular Hound Archon. And the Hound Archon Hero has 11 paladin levels above the regular Hound Archon.
Kilsek of Sheverash
03-09-04, 01:01 PM Originally posted by d_nychus
Heh, I had to double check myself, but when a creature has SR, it usually has an SR equal to its CR + 11. This is calculated after the CR is calculated. (page 300, the Behind the Curtain section) So Tweety's SR here should be 31, by the rules.

In case you have any doubts, note that the Hound Archon Hero has SR 11 points higher a regular Hound Archon. And the Hound Archon Hero has 11 paladin levels above the regular Hound Archon.

Yes, I was wrong!! The good kind as you say, of course, heh.

That's great news, bc I had looked up Spell Resistance in the MM showed only this tiny paragraph that talked nothing about advanced creatures and SR. I tried the DMG before too, saw nothing.

Now I know why I missed it - it was in a sidebar! I'm not sure how much I like "crunchy rules" in sidebars rather than the main text, but at least it's there. Thank you for the catch.

The irony of course is that SR 31 is still relatively easy for an early epic level caster to punch through - but it at least carries a small risk of failure compared to SR 20.

And thanks for the Hound Archon reference - the paladin version of the Hound Archon is very, very cool. I even have his D&D mini - one of my favorites! :)
Krelios
03-09-04, 01:42 PM Epic modifiers to attack and saves don't come into play until you get 21 levels in character classes. Nope, if your HD are 21 or higher, you get Epic modifiers to attacks and saves. You're correct in your assigning them to your creature.

Oh, and a pet peeve of mine... There's no such word as "boni," it's "bonuses."

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kilsek of Sheverash 03-07-04, 04:37 PM	I'm looking to provide a stiff ranged opponent and challenge to a group of early epic level PCs in the campaign finale. I thought some advanced Erynes devils would be perfect. I've advanced her below, pls let me know if anything looks like it was done wrong, as it's a pretty complicated process to advance creatures sometimes. Giving her 12 levels of fighter made her Epic, which was the perfect opportunity for one specific epic feat: Swarm of Arrows. The format is the same as monters listed in the SRD, without the labels on the left, but most are easy to figure out (i.e. when feats are listed, that's obviously the feats section). Thank you! -------------------------------> ERYNES (Devil), Advanced Medium Outsider, Advanced (Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful) [+Ftr 12] [21 HD (232 hp] = 9d8+54 (94 hp) + 12d10+72 (138 hp) = hp range 147-318 +13 (Dex +9, Improved Initiative +4) 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 50 ft. (good) 27 (+9 Dex, +8 natural) touch 19, flat-footed 18 +21/+28 MELEE: Longsword +28 (1d8+7/19–20) or RANGE: +5 flaming burst longbow (+7 Str bonus) +37 [+21 B +9 D, +2 Foci, +5 Magic] (1d8+16/19-20x3 +1d6 fire, +2d10 fire on critical) or rope +29 (entangle) MELEE: Longsword +28/+23/+18+13 melee (1d8+7/19–20) or RANGE: +5 flaming burst longbow (+7 Str bonus) +37/+32/+27/+22 (1d8+16/19-20x3 +1d6 fire, +2d10 fire on critical) or rope +29 (entangle) 5 ft./5 ft. Entangle, spell-like abilities, summon devil Damage reduction 5/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, see in darkness, spell resistance 31*, telepathy 100 ft., true seeing Fort +21, Ref +21, Will +18 [Good Base Saves 9th: F +6, R +6, W +6] [Ftr 12: F+7, R+4, W +4] [Feats: +2 to F, R, W] Str 24 (+7), Dex 28 (+9), Con 23 (+6), Int 12 (+1), Wis 18 (+4), Cha 22 (+6) [Elite Array: S 14, D 18(15), C 13, I 8, W 10, Ch 12] [+3 Dex @ 12, 16, 20 HD] [Ability Modifiers: S +10, D +10, C +10, I +4, W +8, Ch +10] [9 Skills @ Max Ranks of 24] Concentration +30, Diplomacy +30, Escape Artist +9, Hide +9, Knowledge (Planes) +25, Knowledge (Arcana) +25, Listen +28, Move Silently +9, Search +1, Sense Motive +28, Spot +28, Survival +28 (+30 following tracks), Use Rope +33 (+35 with bindings) [16: 1 Epic +7 Normal +2 Bonus Feats +6 Bonus Ftr Feats] DodgeB, MobilityB, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run [] Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will []Weapon Focus: Longbow, Greater Weapon Focus: Longbow, Weapon Specialization: Longbow, Greater Weapon Specialization: Longbow, Improved Critical: Longbow, Improved Initiative [] Epic: Swarm of Arrows A lawful evil-aligned plane Solitary 20 Standard, plus rope and +5 flaming burst composite longbow (+7 Str bonus) Always lawful evil 10–18 HD (Medium) -- indicates Epic modifiers included. *corrected to SR 31 from originally posted SR 20. Thx to d_nychus! Entangle (Ex): Each erinyes carries a stout rope some 50 feet long that entangles opponents of any size as an animate rope spell (caster level 16th). An erinyes can hurl its rope 30 feet with no range penalty. Typically, an erinyes entangles a foe, lifts it into the air, and drops it from a great height. Spell-Like Abilities: At will—greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), charm monster (DC 20/19 advanced/normal), minor image (DC 18/17 advanced/normal), unholy blight (DC 20/19 advanced/normal). Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. Summon Devil (Sp): Once per day an erinyes can attempt to summon 2d10 lemures or 1d4 bearded devils with a 50% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell. True Seeing (Su): Erinyes continuously use true seeing, as the spell (caster level 14th). Edits (2): Added the three abilities just above, and corrected SR.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-08-04, 05:13 PM	Epic modifiers to attack and saves don't come into play until you get 21 levels in character classes.
Kingrames 03-08-04, 06:44 PM	Make a prestige class, and you can make her an epic class. But Erinyes are fun. you might think of something like "Demonslayer", a demon killing archer prestige class.
Kingrames 03-08-04, 06:49 PM	Originally posted by Raymond_Luxury_Yacht Epic modifiers to attack and saves don't come into play until you get 21 levels in character classes. I think your hit dice plus your character clas have to be 21+, because there are some monsters with epic feats and they obviously don't have 21+ levels in a character class.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-09-04, 12:06 AM	Originally posted by Kingrames I think your hit dice plus your character clas have to be 21+, because there are some monsters with epic feats and they obviously don't have 21+ levels in a character class. I said saves and attacks, not epic feats.
Craith 03-09-04, 08:27 AM	IIRC Epic Attack Boni/ Epic Save Boni are used when your HD are > 21 and you DON'T increase Monster HD Monster HD always use their Pre-Epic BAB advancement (but can't get more than 4 iterative attacks) Craith
d_nychus 03-09-04, 09:32 AM	Well, as a CR 20 NPC-like character, I think it would have more possessions. The books are a little muddled on this, but I would use the NPC chart and give it a few more items. You only spent 99,100 gold out of 220,000 gold available. Of course, if you went by the Epic rules and used it as an ECL 28 NPC, you would have a LOT more gold to deal with, 470,000 gold to be exact. That seems a little excessive to me, but it might be appropriate. Personally, I would include some armor of some kind, since an AC of 27 is really....useless as a CR 20 encounter. Frankly, as is, I am seeing this lady being able to dish out the flaming damage, but not being able to take it in return, even with her hp that high. Maybe some bracers or a claok of displacement, or something to boost her AC into the high 30's, just so that the PC's miss every once and a while. Other than that, I think you did a pretty good job.
Kilsek of Sheverash 03-09-04, 10:52 AM	The rules say a character is "Epic" at 21st character level, which is what the advanced Erynes here is: 9 HD of Outsider (its base) +12 Fighter levels. So, I included a +1 Epic Attack Bonus, and +0 Save bonus, since the advanced Erynes is 21st level and that's what you get at those levels. If I'm wrong, pls point out where in the rules it explains I'm off on this, I'd appreciate it :)
Kilsek of Sheverash 03-09-04, 11:21 AM	Originally posted by d_nychus Well, as a CR 20 NPC-like character, I think it would have more possessions. The books are a little muddled on this, but I would use the NPC chart and give it a few more items. You only spent 99,100 gold out of 220,000 gold available. Of course, if you went by the Epic rules and used it as an ECL 28 NPC, you would have a LOT more gold to deal with, 470,000 gold to be exact. That seems a little excessive to me, but it might be appropriate. Yeah, I knew the improved version of the magic bow I gave it was a decent chunk of its allowed GPV in gear. I didn't realize the +5 flaming burst bow was only about ~33% of the GP pool value, however. Part of me also had concerns about its Challenge Rating if I gave it more and more powerful magic items. Then again, that IS supposed to be built into the rules and its CR anyway - whether it's CR 9 or 20 - so I guess I shouldn't worry about it. I'm a little confused where the advanced Erynes as a "monster" ends and the advanced Erynes as an "NPC" begins, which you allude to? The Epic GPV in gear was startling too. I hadn't even considered looking at the creature's GPV in gear from the ELH. Huge difference in value! And yet the CR would remain the same? Or no? Originally posted by d_nychus Personally, I would include some armor of some kind, since an AC of 27 is really....useless as a CR 20 encounter. Frankly, as is, I am seeing this lady being able to dish out the flaming damage, but not being able to take it in return, even with her hp that high. Maybe some bracers or a claok of displacement, or something to boost her AC into the high 30's, just so that the PC's miss every once and a while. When I finished, there were three weaknesses I saw in the advanced Erynes: 1) Armor Class, 2) Spell Resistance, and 3) Melee Prowess. #1 Armor Class: can be easily fixed with gear, good suggestions. Bracers and a cloak of displacement sound quite good actually, and easily within the GPV limit in gear. Makes it more challenging for the warrior-types to hit her. #2 Spell Resistance: I was disappointed in her SR of 20, and according to the advancement to the rules, saw NO way to improve it either. This certainly makes her an easier challenge for the spellcasters than I thought, but OTOH her saves are all strong and around +20, so perhaps it won't be so bad. #3 Melee Prowess: Not a big deal bc she's a master of the bow, with great supporting feats, including that pretty terrifying Swarm of Arrows epic feat that can be used continuously in every round of combat. A Swarm of Advanced Erynes + Swarms of Swarm of Arrows... :eek: ... :OMG!: Originally posted by d_nychus Other than that, I think you did a pretty good job. :) Thank you. And your feedback was GREAT, thanks for that!
d_nychus 03-09-04, 11:54 AM	Originally posted by Kilsek of Sheverash Yeah, I knew the improved version of the magic bow I gave it was a decent chunk of its allowed GPV in gear. I didn't realize the +5 flaming burst bow was only about ~33% of the GP pool value, however. Part of me also had concerns about its Challenge Rating if I gave it more and more powerful magic items. Then again, that IS supposed to be built into the rules and its CR anyway - whether it's CR 9 or 20 - so I guess I shouldn't worry about it. I'm a little confused where the advanced Erynes as a "monster" ends and the advanced Erynes as an "NPC" begins, which you allude to? The Epic GPV in gear was startling too. I hadn't even considered looking at the creature's GPV in gear from the ELH. Huge difference in value! And yet the CR would remain the same? Or no? Personally, I'm confused as well. I am certain that this lady archer would not have the gear of a mere 12th level fighter. I am certain that the gear for a CR 20 NPC would be enough, but if one goes by the little blurb in the back of the 3.5 MM for monsters that advance by character class (which yours does now, since you have added levels) it should have the gear of a 28th level NPC...which I would be hesitant to give. (page 291, very first para) The main reason is that the PC's would defeat a CR 20 creature, and get the treasure of a 28th level character. That's just a little excessive. Originally posted by Kilsek of Sheverash #2 Spell Resistance: I was disappointed in her SR of 20, and according to the advancement to the rules, saw NO way to improve it either. This certainly makes her an easier challenge for the spellcasters than I thought, but OTOH her saves are all strong and around +20, so perhaps it won't be so bad. WEll, then I got good news for you. You're wrong!! :D But its the good kind of wrong, at least. ;) Heh, I had to double check myself, but when a creature has SR, it usually has an SR equal to its CR + 11. This is calculated after the CR is calculated. (page 300, the Behind the Curtain section) So Tweety's SR here should be 31, by the rules. In case you have any doubts, note that the Hound Archon Hero has SR 11 points higher a regular Hound Archon. And the Hound Archon Hero has 11 paladin levels above the regular Hound Archon.
Kilsek of Sheverash 03-09-04, 01:01 PM	Originally posted by d_nychus Heh, I had to double check myself, but when a creature has SR, it usually has an SR equal to its CR + 11. This is calculated after the CR is calculated. (page 300, the Behind the Curtain section) So Tweety's SR here should be 31, by the rules. In case you have any doubts, note that the Hound Archon Hero has SR 11 points higher a regular Hound Archon. And the Hound Archon Hero has 11 paladin levels above the regular Hound Archon. Yes, I was wrong!! The good kind as you say, of course, heh. That's great news, bc I had looked up Spell Resistance in the MM showed only this tiny paragraph that talked nothing about advanced creatures and SR. I tried the DMG before too, saw nothing. Now I know why I missed it - it was in a sidebar! I'm not sure how much I like "crunchy rules" in sidebars rather than the main text, but at least it's there. Thank you for the catch. The irony of course is that SR 31 is still relatively easy for an early epic level caster to punch through - but it at least carries a small risk of failure compared to SR 20. And thanks for the Hound Archon reference - the paladin version of the Hound Archon is very, very cool. I even have his D&D mini - one of my favorites! :)
Krelios 03-09-04, 01:42 PM	Epic modifiers to attack and saves don't come into play until you get 21 levels in character classes. Nope, if your HD are 21 or higher, you get Epic modifiers to attacks and saves. You're correct in your assigning them to your creature. Oh, and a pet peeve of mine... There's no such word as "boni," it's "bonuses."