every creature should be able to have every template [Archive] - Wizards Community

every creature should be able to have every template [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mr.Waesel
03-29-04, 09:57 AM Why do some templates have type restrictions?. You can't have a beholder of legend, so you have to make "custom monster #1" that does exactly the same thing. :bored:

Since that is essentially the same as just applying the template, I feel type restrictions for templates should be removed. Does anyone agree?

Hmm..the title doesn't make much sense
Gez
03-29-04, 11:01 AM Yeah. Like a half-dragon half-bee swarm. It makes sense.

Or a gelatinous gelatinous cube. Useful. Maybe a tauric centaur. Novator enough.

There's some restrictions on templates, like there are on prestige classes or feats. Why can't a hulk of kitten take power attack? With Str 7, it is a real musclor for its kind!

Of course, you can ignore these restrictions if you want. You can also totally bypass templates and rules and give some random powers/boosts/whatever to anything. You don't need to use a template to give, say, a +12 in Dex and the ability to cast magic missile at will to an ogre. Just say he's a weird mutant ogre. Or he's actually another kind of critter altogether. Maybe he looks like a giant medusa rather than an ogre.

But use of templates are silly enough. There's some simple rules to help you, the DM, make use of the material you have in a consistent way. You can breach these rules if you think you need to. There's no gaming police that will interrupt your session.

But it would be a bad idea to suppress these guidelines altogether.
captainswift
03-29-04, 06:03 PM I think a half-dragon, half-bee swarm would be cool.

At any rate, everything is a guideline. If you want vampire monkeys, go right ahead.
nullex
03-29-04, 06:21 PM Originally posted by captainswift
I think a half-dragon, half-bee swarm would be cool.

At any rate, everything is a guideline. If you want vampire monkeys, go right ahead.

LOL!

I thought it would be cool too!
Lord Deadite
03-30-04, 10:14 AM Ignore the restrictions and apply them to what you want.

If I want to make a Pitfiend sorcerer lich, I'll make one and am not going to let some template restriction get in my way.

I just made two vampire erinyes, which shouldnt have been possible if I went along with the guidelines.

I try not to make stupid combo's like a half-red dragon, half-fiend, half-troll white dragon
ieattrollsforbreakfast
03-30-04, 10:46 AM I dont ignore restrictions as such. I see them as guidelines. If there is a restriction on type I'll try to figure out why first, and if what I'm trying to make doesn't fit< I'll do one of a few things.
1) If its for a player trying to be the best munchkin he can, I'll just say no.
2) If its for making a monster, I'll either just apply the template anyway and see what I get.
3) ...or just create a new monster with the template as a guide.
KAR 120 C
03-30-04, 11:09 AM As is so often the case with D&D the restrictions are at once completely arbitrary and fairly sensible.

Ther are basically two reasons for disallowing a particular template to a particular monster. The first is the most obvious and (arguably) most flexible - some things just seem really stupid. Vampire Treants don't make a lot of sense ("I vaant to suuuck your saaap"), neither do Half-Dragon gelatinous cubes ("just... duuuude how *drunk* were you....")

The other reasons for restrictions are slightly more subtle. Quite simply there are some templates which, while they could be *applicable* to certain classes, shouldn't give the same bonuses. You *could* in theory, have a half-celestial, half-feind, but it clearly (or I hope clearly) makes very little sense to get the combined stat bonuses of both. Similarly it is obviously nonsensical to have a half-dragon dragon.
Nei
03-31-04, 04:00 AM I only use the creature type restriction when it makes common sense. So no half-dragon dragons for me, but beholders of legend are perfectly acceptable to me.
.
.
.
Okay, it doesn't have to completely make sense. A goldfish lich is just plain cool. ;)

Originally posted by captainswift
I think a half-dragon, half-bee swarm would be cool.

Depends... Does each bee get a breath weapon? :devil:

Nei
The Ethereal Wickerman
03-31-04, 07:45 AM Exactly what everyone else has said, just mix and macth monsters and templates as you like. The once my players had to destroy these 3 'ghosts' that were haunting this village. They looked like large, dark, headless horses; supposedly the spirits of 3 wild horse that were slaughtered by hunters. It turns out however they were actually a strange trio of newely-discovered Elemental's.

They were Invisible Stalker + Umbral Dire Horse taurics... :D
Edymnion
03-31-04, 11:40 AM You can half a half-dragon swarm.
Take a single bee.
Give it the half dragon template.
Get about 10,000 of these buggers together.
There, you now have a half-dragon swarm.

Only problem is that each one gets a breath weapon.
Easy enough to justify, say that they are so small that their individual breath weapons are so weak as to be negligable, but all of them together can make a breath weapon as strong as the template says they should have.

Problem solved.
Now go make a half-dragon queen african bee ;)
Riznar
03-31-04, 12:09 PM I'd make a half-dragon bee swarm breath every 1d4 rounds for free and toast everyone in it's area.

That seems the simple way to go...
KAR 120 C
03-31-04, 05:29 PM Of course if you *do* go with the half-dragon half-be you run into a serious problem, which is of course that half a bee, philosophically, must, ipso facto, half not be. But can a bee be said to be, or not to be an entire bee, when half a bee is not a bee, due to some ancient injury? D'you see?
The Ethereal Wickerman
04-01-04, 01:38 AM Originally posted by KAR 120 C
Of course if you *do* go with the half-dragon half-be you run into a serious problem, which is of course that half a bee, philosophically, must, ipso facto, half not be. But can a bee be said to be, or not to be an entire bee, when half a bee is not a bee, due to some ancient injury? D'you see?

:confused:
Mr.Waesel
04-01-04, 05:15 AM ...anyway, does anyone agree?
tiggrhoo
04-01-04, 05:52 AM Originally posted by Mr.Waesel
...anyway, does anyone agree? Well, sort of. I do agree that you should be able to add whatever template you like, by ignoring the template restrictions if you feel like it. It's your game, you paid good money for it.

But so did I, and I don't think the restrictions should be abolished, because I enjoy having them for guidelines. And the restrictions do make sense to me, by prohibiting combinations that weren't intended by the designers. I generally don't ignore them; that's my game.

Which is better: To have them for enjoyment, knowing they aren't binding when we don't like them, or to abolish them altogether and lose the enjoyment? What do you gain, one sentence saved in each template? Nah! Keep 'em for me to read, you can still ignore them (and so can I) whenever you want to.

If there are no speeding tickets, at least let me read the pretty signs. I agree with your right to speed.

Respectfully,
:)
radu the wanderer
04-02-04, 04:52 AM Originally posted by KAR 120 C
Of course if you *do* go with the half-dragon half-be you run into a serious problem, which is of course that half a bee, philosophically, must, ipso facto, half not be. But can a bee be said to be, or not to be an entire bee, when half a bee is not a bee, due to some ancient injury? D'you see?

singing... alaa dee dee, 1 2 3, Eric the Half a Bee!
a b c d e f g, Eric the half a bee!
Is this a wretched demi-bee half asleep upon my knee?
A freak from some menagerie? NO!
It's Eric the Half a bee!

That's great!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mr.Waesel 03-29-04, 09:57 AM	Why do some templates have type restrictions?. You can't have a beholder of legend, so you have to make "custom monster #1" that does exactly the same thing. :bored: Since that is essentially the same as just applying the template, I feel type restrictions for templates should be removed. Does anyone agree? Hmm..the title doesn't make much sense
Gez 03-29-04, 11:01 AM	Yeah. Like a half-dragon half-bee swarm. It makes sense. Or a gelatinous gelatinous cube. Useful. Maybe a tauric centaur. Novator enough. There's some restrictions on templates, like there are on prestige classes or feats. Why can't a hulk of kitten take power attack? With Str 7, it is a real musclor for its kind! Of course, you can ignore these restrictions if you want. You can also totally bypass templates and rules and give some random powers/boosts/whatever to anything. You don't need to use a template to give, say, a +12 in Dex and the ability to cast magic missile at will to an ogre. Just say he's a weird mutant ogre. Or he's actually another kind of critter altogether. Maybe he looks like a giant medusa rather than an ogre. But use of templates are silly enough. There's some simple rules to help you, the DM, make use of the material you have in a consistent way. You can breach these rules if you think you need to. There's no gaming police that will interrupt your session. But it would be a bad idea to suppress these guidelines altogether.
captainswift 03-29-04, 06:03 PM	I think a half-dragon, half-bee swarm would be cool. At any rate, everything is a guideline. If you want vampire monkeys, go right ahead.
nullex 03-29-04, 06:21 PM	Originally posted by captainswift I think a half-dragon, half-bee swarm would be cool. At any rate, everything is a guideline. If you want vampire monkeys, go right ahead. LOL! I thought it would be cool too!
Lord Deadite 03-30-04, 10:14 AM	Ignore the restrictions and apply them to what you want. If I want to make a Pitfiend sorcerer lich, I'll make one and am not going to let some template restriction get in my way. I just made two vampire erinyes, which shouldnt have been possible if I went along with the guidelines. I try not to make stupid combo's like a half-red dragon, half-fiend, half-troll white dragon
ieattrollsforbreakfast 03-30-04, 10:46 AM	I dont ignore restrictions as such. I see them as guidelines. If there is a restriction on type I'll try to figure out why first, and if what I'm trying to make doesn't fit< I'll do one of a few things. 1) If its for a player trying to be the best munchkin he can, I'll just say no. 2) If its for making a monster, I'll either just apply the template anyway and see what I get. 3) ...or just create a new monster with the template as a guide.
KAR 120 C 03-30-04, 11:09 AM	As is so often the case with D&D the restrictions are at once completely arbitrary and fairly sensible. Ther are basically two reasons for disallowing a particular template to a particular monster. The first is the most obvious and (arguably) most flexible - some things just seem really stupid. Vampire Treants don't make a lot of sense ("I vaant to suuuck your saaap"), neither do Half-Dragon gelatinous cubes ("just... duuuude how drunk were you....") The other reasons for restrictions are slightly more subtle. Quite simply there are some templates which, while they could be applicable to certain classes, shouldn't give the same bonuses. You could in theory, have a half-celestial, half-feind, but it clearly (or I hope clearly) makes very little sense to get the combined stat bonuses of both. Similarly it is obviously nonsensical to have a half-dragon dragon.
Nei 03-31-04, 04:00 AM	I only use the creature type restriction when it makes common sense. So no half-dragon dragons for me, but beholders of legend are perfectly acceptable to me. . . . Okay, it doesn't have to completely make sense. A goldfish lich is just plain cool. ;) Originally posted by captainswift I think a half-dragon, half-bee swarm would be cool. Depends... Does each bee get a breath weapon? :devil: Nei
The Ethereal Wickerman 03-31-04, 07:45 AM	Exactly what everyone else has said, just mix and macth monsters and templates as you like. The once my players had to destroy these 3 'ghosts' that were haunting this village. They looked like large, dark, headless horses; supposedly the spirits of 3 wild horse that were slaughtered by hunters. It turns out however they were actually a strange trio of newely-discovered Elemental's. They were Invisible Stalker + Umbral Dire Horse taurics... :D
Edymnion 03-31-04, 11:40 AM	You can half a half-dragon swarm. Take a single bee. Give it the half dragon template. Get about 10,000 of these buggers together. There, you now have a half-dragon swarm. Only problem is that each one gets a breath weapon. Easy enough to justify, say that they are so small that their individual breath weapons are so weak as to be negligable, but all of them together can make a breath weapon as strong as the template says they should have. Problem solved. Now go make a half-dragon queen african bee ;)
Riznar 03-31-04, 12:09 PM	I'd make a half-dragon bee swarm breath every 1d4 rounds for free and toast everyone in it's area. That seems the simple way to go...
KAR 120 C 03-31-04, 05:29 PM	Of course if you do go with the half-dragon half-be you run into a serious problem, which is of course that half a bee, philosophically, must, ipso facto, half not be. But can a bee be said to be, or not to be an entire bee, when half a bee is not a bee, due to some ancient injury? D'you see?
The Ethereal Wickerman 04-01-04, 01:38 AM	Originally posted by KAR 120 C Of course if you do go with the half-dragon half-be you run into a serious problem, which is of course that half a bee, philosophically, must, ipso facto, half not be. But can a bee be said to be, or not to be an entire bee, when half a bee is not a bee, due to some ancient injury? D'you see? :confused:
Mr.Waesel 04-01-04, 05:15 AM	...anyway, does anyone agree?
tiggrhoo 04-01-04, 05:52 AM	Originally posted by Mr.Waesel ...anyway, does anyone agree? Well, sort of. I do agree that you should be able to add whatever template you like, by ignoring the template restrictions if you feel like it. It's your game, you paid good money for it. But so did I, and I don't think the restrictions should be abolished, because I enjoy having them for guidelines. And the restrictions do make sense to me, by prohibiting combinations that weren't intended by the designers. I generally don't ignore them; that's my game. Which is better: To have them for enjoyment, knowing they aren't binding when we don't like them, or to abolish them altogether and lose the enjoyment? What do you gain, one sentence saved in each template? Nah! Keep 'em for me to read, you can still ignore them (and so can I) whenever you want to. If there are no speeding tickets, at least let me read the pretty signs. I agree with your right to speed. Respectfully, :)
radu the wanderer 04-02-04, 04:52 AM	Originally posted by KAR 120 C Of course if you do go with the half-dragon half-be you run into a serious problem, which is of course that half a bee, philosophically, must, ipso facto, half not be. But can a bee be said to be, or not to be an entire bee, when half a bee is not a bee, due to some ancient injury? D'you see? singing... alaa dee dee, 1 2 3, Eric the Half a Bee! a b c d e f g, Eric the half a bee! Is this a wretched demi-bee half asleep upon my knee? A freak from some menagerie? NO! It's Eric the Half a bee! That's great!