Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Draconigeno 12-28-05, 11:55 AM	I gave my players the URL to the message board and told them to look through and see it there's any ideas they'd like incorperated into the game. One of them ran across the awakened animal thread and brought up using awakened animals. I rather disliked the mechanics behind the Awakened Animal spell for a number of reasons, partly due to the increase in HD making the ECL of the awakened animals higher than I would have prefered with little other benifit as well as the spell restricting the applicible types to Animals and Plants (when there were things such as Constructs and non-intelligent magical beasts/abberations that the characters wanted to try). I used the 'Highly Evolved' template from Star Wars D20 as a basis to try and come up with an alternitive. Highly Evolved Highly evolved creatures have developed an advanced intelligence, although the may not have much of a cuilture. This template can be used to represent an unusual new sentient species (such as intelligent plants or a rare mutant that is unique in it's sentience. Highly evolved creatures can't serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount. A Highly evolved creature can speak one language, usually know by nearby settlements, per point of Intelligence bonus (if any). CREATING A HIGHLY EVOLVED CREATURE "Highly Evolved" is an acquired template that can be added to any non-construct creature with an intelligence of 0-2. A Highly Evolved creature has all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here. Size and Type: The creature's type changes to magical beast (augmented animal) if the base creature's type was Animal or Magical Beast (augmented Vermin) if the base creature was Vermin. If the base creature was of the Ooze type then their type becomes Abberation. Otherwise the base type remains the same. Evolved Swarms gain the Evolved Swarm sub-type rather than the Augmented subtype usually granted by a template. Recalculate HD size, BAB and saves if type changes. Size is unchanged. Hit Dice: Recalculate according to new type (where applicible). If the Evolved creature has class levels then the class Hit Dice can be substituted for one or more Racial HD at the DMs discretion. For example an Evolved Ape would normally have 4d10 Hit Dice but an Evolved Ape Barbarian might have from 1d12 to 4d12 in place of his Racial HD at the DM's discretion. Speed: Same as Base Creature Armor Class: Same as Base Creature Attack: Same as Base Creature, Recalculate BAB if Type changes Damage: Same as Base Creature Special Attacks: Same as Base Creature Special Qualities: Same as base creature plus the following. Note that swarms to which this template is applied gain the Hivemind special quality and have an additional +1 to LA: Functional hands: If the base creature does not have appendages that can manipulate objects as well as human hands, than they evolved creature gains appropriate appendages. This could be anything from a highly prehensile tail/tentacles to hands with opposable thumbs. For quadrapedal creatures, the toes on their forelegs are longer and more dexterous, similar in nature to a raccoon. For those creatures without apendages, the DM should determine an appropriate appendage. For example, Oozes manipulate objects with pseudopods, a snake might have a prehensile tail or a fish's first set of fins might develope into a frog/salamander-like set of for limbs with opposible thumbs. The DM might also decide that a given creature might not be capible of developing limbs. Hive Mind (Ex): Any swarm with at least 1 hit point per Hit Die forms a hive mind, giving it Intelligence. When the swarm is reduced below this hit point threshold, or is dispersed, it becomes mindless unless there are sufficient members of the swarm left to reform the swarm. All members of the swarm within 20 feet of each other are in constant communication. If one is aware of a particular danger, they all are. If one in a group is not flatfooted, none of them are. Evolved Swarm (Ex): Dispite still being a swarm, evolved swarms are different enough to be differenciated via a different sub-type. This subtype replaces the Augmented sub-type the template would otherwise impart. >Any magical effect affecting the leader, beneficial or not, affects the rest of the swarm. The leader is the only swarm member whom is able to use magic items, that are appropriate to it's size, but the effects spread to the whole swarm. For example, the energy resistance from a Ring of Energy Resistance, protects the entire swarm, not only the leader. >A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking (See Hivemind). >A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. >A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. >Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or lower causes it to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms reduced to -10 or lower hitpoints are considered to be broken up to the point where they no longer have enough swarm members to reform. >Evolved swarms can be staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage as this eliminates swarm members from the hive mind. An evolved swarm can be killed by destroying the leader, whom is considered as having total concealment for purposes of combat. >Swarms cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent. >Sneak attacks as well as critical hits can affect the swarm by hitting the leader. This happens 25% of the time with a swarm of fine creatures, 50% of the time with a swarm of diminutive Creatures and 75% of the time with tiny creatures. >Due to the extent that evolved swarms are linked, they are treated as a single creature for Transmutation and Enchantment spells. A swarm is still immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate) unless such attacks target the leader, with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. >A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells. >Swarms made up of Diminutive or Fine creatures are susceptible to high winds such as that created by a gust of wind spell. For purposes of determining the effects of wind on a swarm, treat the swarm as a creature of the same size as its constituent creatures. A swarm rendered unconscious by means of nonlethal damage becomes disorganized and dispersed, and does not reform until its hit points exceed its nonlethal damage. Saves: Recalculate saves if type changes Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Int 2d6+4 (Max 18), Wis 2d6+4 (Max 18), Cha 2d6+4 (Max 18). If used on a plant that does not that does not have a stat block then do the following: Follow the rules for animated objects but use the Plant type rather than construct. Constitution for a medium evolved tree is 12, constitution increases by 4 for every size catagory larger than medium and falls by 2 if smaller than medium. Skills: Recalculate according to new type/abilities (where applicible), Base creature's skills are considered Class Skills, other skills are considered to be cross-class. Environment: Same as base creature Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature + 1 Alignment: Neutral but evolved predators tend towards chaos (pack/group living predators tend towards law however) and most herbivores tend towards law (certain wilder species, like Boars or Bulls, tend towards chaos) Level Adjustment: Same as base creature +2
OamuTheMonk 12-28-05, 05:42 PM	There are also too many unanswered questions, like how to calculate LA for creatures who currently have LA-. I mean, really, how are you going to handle things like this: Highly Evolved Gelatinous Cube Large Aberration Hit Dice: 4d8+32 (50 hp) Initiative: -1 Speed: 15 ft. (3 squares) Armor Class: 4 (-1 size, -5 Dex), touch 4, flat-footed 4 Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+7 Attack: Slam +2 melee (1d6 plus 1d6 acid) Full Attack: Slam +2 melee (1d6 plus 1d6 acid) Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Acid, engulf, paralysis Special Qualities: Blindsight 60 ft., immunity to electricity, ooze traits, transparent Saves: Fort +9, Ref -4, Will +4 Abilities: Str 10, Dex 1, Con 26, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 11 Skills: Search +9, Survival +7 Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative Environment: Underground Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 4 Treasure: 1/10th coins, 50% goods (no nonmetal or nonstone), 50% items (no nonmetal or nonstone) Alignment: chaotic neutral Advancement: by character class Level Adjustment: +2?
Draconigeno 12-28-05, 10:56 PM	The way I normally handle it is to use Soldarin's ECL Calculator ( http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/shadows/Handbook/ECLcalc.html ) to get a rough guess of the ECL then subtract the creature's HD to get the initial level adjustment.
Draconigeno 12-30-05, 01:39 PM	Here's a partial list of various LAs of various creatures in the monstrous manual that are applicible with the template. It's a rough list since I could not find any aids to figure out LA aside from Soldarin's ECL Calculator, which I tend to use more for figuring out ECL/LA for humanoid characters than compiling a list like this. A few of them have LAs that seem a little low to me, those ones are marked with a question mark. A lot of them seem to be prohibitively high in ECL when the template as well as racial HD are added, these ones would likely be best saved for Epic campaignes if used at all. Monster LA Ankheg +5 Assassin Vine +5 Basilisk +4? Bulette +7 Cockatrice +2? Darkmantle +4 Devil, Lemure +5 Digester +5 Dinosaur, Deinonychus +4 Dinosaur, Elasmosaurus +4 Dinosaur, Megaraptor +6 Dinosaur, Triceratops +7 Dinosaur, Tyrannosaurus +6 Dire Ape +4 Dire Badger +3 Dire Bat +4 Dire Bear +5 Dire Boar +4 Dire Lion +6 Dire Rat +2 Dire Shark +6 Dire Tiger +6 Dire Weasel +3 Dire Wolf +4 Dire Wolverine +5 Frost Worm +9 Violet Fungus +2 Girallon +5 Gorgon +5? Hippogriff +4 Hydra, 5 Headed +6 Hydra, 5 Headed (Pyro/Cryo) +8 Ooze, Black Pudding +4? Ooze, Gelatinous Cube +3? Ooze, Gray +2? Ooze, Ochre Jelly +2? Owlbear +4 Phantom Fungus +2 Purple Worm +10 Roc +8 Rust Monster +3 Sea Cat +4 Shocker Lizard +3 Spider Eater +6 Stirge +2 Swarm, Bat +4 Swarm, Centipede +3 Swarm, Locust +3 Swarm, Rat +3 Swarm, Spider +3 Animals Ape +4 Baboon +1 Badger +1 Bat +1 (+2 if able to use appropriately sized equipment) Bear, Black +2 Bear, Brown +3 Bear, Polar +5 Bison +3 Boar +2 Camel +2 Cat +1 (+2 if able to use appropriately sized equipment) Cheetah +3 Crocodile +2 Crocodile, Giant +4 Dog +2 Dog, Riding +2 Donkey +0? Eagle +1 (Cannot use most armors due to need to keep weight down for flight, magical or specially crafted Armor allowable at DM's Discretion) Elephant +6 Hawk +2? (Cannot use most armors due to need to keep weight down for flight, magical or specially crafted Armor allowable at DM's Discretion) Horse, Heavy +2 Horse, Light +2 Horse, Heavy Warhorse +2 Horse, Light Warhorse +3 Hyena +2 Leopard +4 Lion +4 Lizard +0 (+1 if able to use appropriately sized equipment) Lizard, Monitor +2 Manta Ray +1 in Aquatic Campaign. (Due to it's aquatic nature, it is doubtful it would make a good PC/NPC in a land-based setting) Monkey +1 (+2 if able to use appropriately sized equipment) Mule +1 Octopus +1 (+2 in Aquatic Campaign. Due to it's aquatic nature, it is doubtful it would make a good PC/NPC in a land-based setting) Octopus, Giant +4 (+5 in Aquatic Campaign. Due to it's aquatic nature, it is doubtful it would make a good PC/NPC in a land-based setting) Owl +2 (Cannot use most armors due to need to keep weight down for flight, magical or specially crafted Armor allowable at DM's Discretion) Pony +1 Pony, War +1 Porpoise +2 in Aquatic Campaign. (Due to it's aquatic nature, it is doubtful it would make a good PC/NPC in a land-based setting) Rat +0 Raven +0 (+1 if able to use appropriately sized equipment) Rhinoceros +4 Shark, Medium +1 in Aquatic Campaign. (Due to it's aquatic nature, it is doubtful it would make a good PC/NPC in a land-based setting) Shark, Large +2 in Aquatic Campaign. (Due to it's aquatic nature, it is doubtful it would make a good PC/NPC in a land-based setting) Shark, Huge +4 in Aquatic Campaign. (Due to it's aquatic nature, it is doubtful it would make a good PC/NPC in a land-based setting) Snake, Constrictor +1 Snake, Giant Constrictor +4 Snake, Tiny Viper +1 Snake, Small Viper +1 Snake, Medium Viper +1 Snake, Large Viper +1? Snake, Huge Viper +2? Squid +2 in Aquatic Campaign. (Due to it's aquatic nature, it is doubtful it would make a good PC/NPC in a land-based setting) Squid, Giant +7 in Aquatic Campaign. (Due to it's aquatic nature, it is doubtful it would make a good PC/NPC in a land-based setting) Tiger +4 Toad +0 (+1 if able to use appropriately sized equipment) Weasel +1 (+2 if able to use appropriately sized equipment) Whale, Baleen +8 in Aquatic Campaign. (Due to it's aquatic nature, it is doubtful it would make a good PC/NPC in a land-based setting) Whale, Cachalot +9 in Aquatic Campaign. (Due to it's aquatic nature, it is doubtful it would make a good PC/NPC in a land-based setting) Whale, Orca +6 Wolf +1 Wolverine +3 Vermin Giant Ant, Worker +1 Giant Ant, Soldier +3 Giant Ant, Queen +2 Giant Bee +1 Giant Bombardier Beetle +2 Giant Fire Beetle +0 Giant Stag Beetle +4 Giant Praying Mantis +4 Giant Wasp +2 Coming next, Rest of the Vermin LAs
OamuTheMonk 12-30-05, 05:28 PM	I know that as a DM, it's difficult to develop even one session that keeps all the PCs interested. Appropriate and inclusive challenges that are interesting both to run (as a DM) and overcome (as a player) are hard enough to come by, given all the options that players have. Now, experienced players may decide that they want more interesting and unusual characters, and many monstrous races are a reasonable step. I can't really see anything too game-breaking as playing as a Troll, or a Doppelganger, or a Centaur, or Pixie, or even a Hill Giant (assuming that the campaign is high-powered enough to support these antics). However, any campaign that begins with an adventuring party composed of a Highly Evolved Phantom fungus Rogue, A Highly Evolved Centipede Swarm Cleric of Wee Jas, a Highly Evolved Black pudding Bard, and a Highly Evolved Gorgon Barbarian is destined to set a new standard for pointlessness. Any explanation as to how a group with this configuration could begin adventuring together is bound to be ludicrous. None of the characters could concieveably interact with standard NPCs in any sort of meaningful manner. How would you do it? How would you write the first session for my sample party? Highly Evolved Black pudding Bard Highly Evolved Phantom fungus Rogue Highly Evolved Gorgon Barbarian Highly Evolved Centipede Swarm Cleric of Wee Jas I'm curious if you're as dedicated to this idea as you seem. How does this party meet?
Draconigeno 12-30-05, 07:09 PM	I am dedicated, as you put it :blink: , to providing a roleplaying enviroment (For lack of a better term) that my players enjoy. Even it that means catering to a request that I find odd, such as the request to find a way for a player to play a Dire Ape Barbarian which led to this template. I'm never said that the whole party would be composed of recipients of the template, I have one (Two counting one undecided) player whom would like to play such a character. The other party members are: Dwarf Fighter, Elf Rogue, Human Sorcerer and two new players still making their characters. The first player wanted to play something unusual and happened across a thread on this board dealing with awakened animals. As I said in my first post I dislike using the Awaken animal spell so I used the Evolved Creature template from Star Wars D20 as a basis for this template, changing things slightly here and there to make it fitting for my campaign. The reason I posted the list of LAs was because of the post where you inquired: There are also too many unanswered questions, like how to calculate LA for creatures who currently have LA-. I mean, really, how are you going to handle things like this: Highly Evolved Gelatinous Cube Normally I handle things like that on a case by case basis.
JiCi 12-30-05, 07:23 PM	That template seems nice, although vermins should become magical beasts (augmented vermin) instead of aberrations. For templates, animals and vermins alike become magical beasts, so why not on this template too. Also, I don't think that prehentile paws/hooves would slow a quadruped's speed that much, if not at all. And how you get a int score of 18 if the real maximum is 16 (2x6+2)+0/1/2 = 14/15/16. How about 2d6+4 instead ?
neilthrun 12-30-05, 07:28 PM	I love it! Mostly because its something I tried doing, and I love to see a new take on it. Heres a template,Genius (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=547552) ,I made, as kind of a counterpoint to the feral template that provides everything from oozes to racoons to undead to golems with a bit of sentience. Its also interesting, because while your template is different, I also think it might be a bit weaker than mine which has an LA of +1. Although maybe mine is just overpowered for +1 LA, I never got much response.
Draconigeno 12-30-05, 07:55 PM	JiCi Thanks for pointing that out, I thought the max was 18 (Due to poor math skills after a day working at the farm ;) ). Thanks for the suggestions, will add them soon as I finish this reply. neilthrun Thanks, wish I could take credit but I just converted the template from Star Wars D20 to D&D. I actually saw yours when I went through the thread archive before having my players go through, before I had registered a username, and liked what I saw. I was going to give yours a try in place of making a new one but before I tried it I was going through the Star Wars Alien Anthology and saw the Evolved Creature template and decided to give it a try.
OamuTheMonk 12-30-05, 10:37 PM	I am dedicated, as you put it :blink: , to providing a roleplaying enviroment (For lack of a better term) that my players enjoy. Even it that means catering to a request that I find odd, such as the request to find a way for a player to play a Dire Ape Barbarian which led to this template. I was thinking that this would lead to all kind of craziness. It seems like you've got a fairly conservative bunch of players there. A Dire Ape Barbarian isn't nutty at all--It'll probably make for a really cool character. In the wrong hands, however, I still think that this template could lead to headaches.
CaptFrigate 12-30-05, 10:55 PM	This is the kind of thing that would work best if yea'ed or nay'ed on a case by case basis. Things like dire ape barbarians and such I would judge as fine, but things like a dire rat swarm sorcerer, I would have to disallow. A rat sorcerer, however, would be fine in my book. This template can add a great amount of interesting flavor to a campeign, but only if used in heavy moderation. After all, every other creature is not Highly Evolved.
Draconigeno 12-30-05, 11:56 PM	OamuTheMonk Lol, I have conservitive characters and then some. I just went through the monster manual and did up the LA for any creature that applied in the event someone in the board wanted to use the template for a specific creature, even though I would not personally allow it in my game. Purple Worm for example would be a combat monster in and of itself if someone used it, even without classes. While I do have a lot of LAs posted, not all of them are ones I'd allow in my campaign. If my fellow DMs on the board feel otherwise, go nuts. CaptFrigate The swarms are one of those ones that are on the list just because they technically were eligible for the template. The player, whom askd to be kept nameless, actually wanted to play as a bat swarm but when he couldn't give a reason why it would make a good character other than 'It'd be cool' I had him go with another choice. Thus was born, and these are his words, Kong the Barbarian.
neilthrun 12-31-05, 01:20 AM	I'm a little unclear with the Special Abilities section. Lets say I put this template on a fish, does it gain hands, tentacles, tail, or something simlar? Perhaps a sentace like "The DM determines what kind of appendages you recieve" could be in place. But then again, I guess thats rule zero. Regardless, it could use a little clarification. Personally I don't like the ooze to abberation change. That goes back to a long story when I was playing an oozemaster cleric with the ooze domain. I cast awaken ooze(dragon magizine) and my ochre jelly turned into an abberation and I could no longer command/rebuke it. Rule wise though, I feel there is more to distinguish oozes from abberations than intelligence. Abberations are otherworldy, an affront to nature. I always saw oozes as a non-biological component of nature. Like stone, and dirt. Although if you don't change the type, you have to deal with the fact all oozes are mindless. Oh and I now see why you've got the +2 La. giving a creature an intelligence score, wisdom score and charisma score can deffinately give it a 2 level edge.
Draconigeno 12-31-05, 01:50 AM	Quote: <I'm a little unclear with the Special Abilities section. Lets say I put this template on a fish, does it gain hands, tentacles, tail, or something simlar? Perhaps a sentace like "The DM determines what kind of appendages you recieve" could be in place. But then again, I guess thats rule zero. Regardless, it could use a little clarification.> I tried making it a little clearer. Certain limb-less animals such as a snake are easy to do in that they might use their tails prehensily in the manner of an octopus, sans suction cups of course ;), but Fish are another matter. There are a few fish that have fins that, for lack of a better term, mimic limbs. Extinct Lobe-fins and the modern Mudskippers, Sea Robins and Rosette Sharks are the ones off the top of my head. While the ability to manipulate objects is though of as a prerequisite for intellegence, it is not nessicary in a campaign world where magic or a Charmed minion can do it for you so leaving it out won't hurt the character too badly. Quote <Personally I don't like the ooze to abberation change. That goes back to a long story when I was playing an oozemaster cleric with the ooze domain. I cast awaken ooze(dragon magizine) and my ochre jelly turned into an abberation and I could no longer command/rebuke it. Rule wise though, I feel there is more to distinguish oozes from abberations than intelligence. Abberations are otherworldy, an affront to nature. I always saw oozes as a non-biological component of nature. Like stone, and dirt. Although if you don't change the type, you have to deal with the fact all oozes are mindless.> I agree with you on the point that an intelligent ooze would likely better be classified as something other than abberation. Oozes are no more abberations than slime molds, which are RL creatures that are mobile plants (or fungi depending on one's point of view) that live much like oozes, save that their 'prey' is microscopic organisms and decaying biological material. Sadly abberation is the only one that comes close to describing an intelligent ooze. I do have a suggestion, should you play an ooze master again and you wish to awaken an ooze, I'd suggest this house rule to your DM. It is based on a rule from the Monster manual, under Half-Orc. Augmented Ooze (Ex): While the ooze has been augmented and is no longer considered an ooze, it still retains certain traits common to oozes, jellies and puddings. For the purposes of spells and class features relating to the Ooze type, the ooze is still considered to be of the ooze type. Quote <Oh and I now see why you've got the +2 La. giving a creature an intelligence score, wisdom score and charisma score can definately give it a 2 level edge.> Yup, between the stat increases and the addition of the ability to weild weapons and manipulate objects, I figured that it was worth the +2 LA.
JiCi 12-31-05, 09:48 AM	Here's a partial list of various LAs of various creatures in the monstrous manual that are applicible with the template. It's a rough list since I could not find any aids to figure out LA aside from Soldarin's ECL Calculator, which I tend to use more for figuring out ECL/LA for humanoid characters than compiling a list like this. A few of them have LAs that seem a little low to me, those ones are marked with a question mark. A lot of them seem to be prohibitively high in ECL when the template as well as racial HD are added, these ones would likely be best saved for Epic campaignes if used at all. Monster LA Swarm, Bat +4 Swarm, Centipede +3 Swarm, Locust +3 Swarm, Rat +3 Swarm, Spider +3 Coming next, LA of Animals & Vermin :)That list of yours is the creatures' LAs WITH the template, right ? If so, I don't think highly evolved swarms should be eligible, because it is composed of multiples creatures. But if you add a special ability similar to the formian's hive mind, with an additionnal +1 to LA, then it might be playable, since all creatures would now act as a single realistic intelligent unit.
Draconigeno 12-31-05, 12:16 PM	JiCi There we go. I took your advice and kind of combined the Hive Mind entries from the hellwasp swarm and the Formorians. While I wouldn't personally use the template on swarms, I can't think of a specific reason why they are not suited other than *Cue voice of god* The DM says so. Thank you for the suggestion of the hive mind special quality as this adds a realilistic touch to it, ironic choice of words as we are discussing intelligent swarms ;) , and would lend more of a natural feel to anyone whom would use a swarm character. Before the addition of hivemind applying the template to a swarm, my reason to a certain munchkin player of mine as to why swarms would not make good PCs, the swarm would have been more like an organized group of individual sentient creatures cooperating a swarm PC'd now more be an individual where individual swarm members are part of a single hivemind. The reason I added the 20' requirement to the communication range, and thusly the range the swarm must stay in to retain intelligence, is to keep a possible swarm PC from possibly abusing the swarm sub-type's abilities. For example ranging across a battlefield to haggar and distract a whole group of adversaries. Now the PC would have to focus on a single, or small group at the most, opponent in combat.
JiCi 12-31-05, 12:53 PM	JiCi There we go. I took your advice and kind of combined the Hive Mind entries from the hellwasp swarm and the Formorians. While I wouldn't personally use the template on swarms, I can't think of a specific reason why they are not suited other than *Cue voice of god* The DM says so. Thank you for the suggestion of the hive mind special quality as this adds a realilistic touch to it, ironic choice of words as we are discussing intelligent swarms ;) , and would lend more of a natural feel to anyone whom would use a swarm character. Before the addition of hivemind applying the template to a swarm, my reason to a certain munchkin player of mine as to why swarms would not make good PCs, the swarm would have been more like an organized group of individual sentient creatures cooperating a swarm PC'd now more be an individual where individual swarm members are part of a single hivemind. The reason I added the 20' requirement to the communication range, and thusly the range the swarm must stay in to retain intelligence, is to keep a possible swarm PC from possibly abusing the swarm sub-type's abilities. For example ranging across a battlefield to haggar and distract a whole group of adversaries. Now the PC would have to focus on a single, or small group at the most, opponent in combat.Glad I could help. What I was trying to say is that intelligent swarm players actually control only one creature, but in order to keep the swarm together, there's must be a leader (the PC) who can control each and every action as a swarm. Cranial Rats, from Fiend Folio, are good examples. As for the hive mind, well the 20-ft radius isn't too bad, considering that swarms take either a 10-ft square or a 10-ft cube. Seriously, you should also list a few rules for swarms, such as equipment, magic items, spells, etc. For example: - A swarm could be treated as a single creature for transmutation spells - Only the leader can use or wear magic items, but the effects spread into the entire swarm. - If the leader wears a custom-shaped full plate, the whole swarm gains a +8 armor bonus to AC. You know, things like that. Long to write ? yes. Useless ? not at all. Worth it ? definitely yes.
Draconigeno 12-31-05, 01:32 PM	JiCi <Glad I could help. What I was trying to say is that intelligent swarm players actually control only one creature, but in order to keep the swarm together, there's must be a leader (the PC) who can control each and every action as a swarm. Cranial Rats, from Fiend Folio, are good examples.> A good point. While there are not many examples of swarms in RL, there are a few and many of those do have a designated 'leader' caste. Naked mole rats for example have the whole colony following the pheramonal cues from a queen. A Portugese man-o-war technically would fit the swarm sub-type as it is a colony of different creatures existing together. Having one swarm member as the leader, that directs other swarm members also could be used as a means of further balancing it should someone want to use it as a PC. <As for the hive mind, well the 20-ft radius isn't too bad, considering that swarms take either a 10-ft square or a 10-ft cube. Seriously, you should also list a few rules for swarms, such as equipment, magic items, spells, etc.> Thought it over and came up with this, lemme know what you think. Evolved Swarm (Ex) An evolved swarm is guided by a central member, refered to as the leader, that is one size catagory larger than it's compatriots. While the leader's physical abilities increase, this has no effect on the abilities of the swarm. Any magical effect, beneficial or not, affects the rest of the swarm. The leader is the only swarm member whom is able to use magic items, that are appropriate to it's size, but the effects spread to the whole swarm. For example, the energy resistance from a Ring of Energy Resistance, protects the entire swarm, not only the leader. A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking (See Hivemind). A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or lower causes it to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Evolved swarms can be staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage as this eliminates swarm members from the hive mind. An evolved swarm can be killed by destroying the leader, whom is considered as having total concealment for purposes of combat. Swarms cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent. Because they are governed by a single intelligent member, evolved swarms are subject to critical hits. Such hits are considered as hitting this controlling swarm member. Due to the extent that evolved swarms are linked, they are treated as a single creature for Transmutation and Enchantment spells. A swarm is still immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate) unless such attacks target the leader, with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells. Swarms made up of Diminutive or Fine creatures are susceptible to high winds such as that created by a gust of wind spell. For purposes of determining the effects of wind on a swarm, treat the swarm as a creature of the same size as its constituent creatures. A swarm rendered unconscious by means of nonlethal damage becomes disorganized and dispersed, and does not reform until its hit points exceed its nonlethal damage. If one of my players should want to play a swarm character, now allowed thanks to feedback from the board that's helped me balance swarms as possible PC characters, or someone in the thread requests it then I will work out equipment for swarm characters. For example, a special construct/suit of armor that the swarm can inhabit to allow it to interact better with it's enviroment or something like that. Thanks for the feedback every one :) , if anyone else has any feedback, feel free to chime in. I tend to check the board every now and then when I am on the comp. I've schedualed a game sunday that will make the first time the player's Ape Barbarian will see combat. I'll let you all know how it goes.
JiCi 12-31-05, 02:27 PM	Evolved Swarm (Ex) An evolved swarm is guided by a central member, refered to as the leader, that is one size catagory larger than it's compatriots. While the leader's physical abilities increase, this has no effect on the abilities of the swarm. Any magical effect, beneficial or not, affects the rest of the swarm. The leader is the only swarm member whom is able to use magic items, that are appropriate to it's size, but the effects spread to the whole swarm. For example, the energy resistance from a Ring of Energy Resistance, protects the entire swarm, not only the leader. -A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking (See Hivemind). -A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. -A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. -Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or lower causes it to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. -Evolved swarms can be staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage as this eliminates swarm members from the hive mind. An evolved swarm can be killed by destroying the leader, whom is considered as having total concealment for purposes of combat. -Swarms cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent. -Because they are governed by a single intelligent member, evolved swarms are subject to critical hits. Such hits are considered as hitting this controlling swarm member. -Due to the extent that evolved swarms are linked, they are treated as a single creature for Transmutation and Enchantment spells. A swarm is still immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate) unless such attacks target the leader, with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. -A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells. Swarms made up of Diminutive or Fine creatures are susceptible to high winds such as that created by a gust of wind spell. For purposes of determining the effects of wind on a swarm, treat the swarm as a creature of the same size as its constituent creatures. A swarm rendered unconscious by means of nonlethal damage becomes disorganized and dispersed, and does not reform until its hit points exceed its nonlethal damage.I hilighted what I wanted to talk about. The whole subtype is great, but there are a few things that need clarifying. - The leader shouldn't be one size larger. That would make the leader easier to hit and ruin the swarm traits, since you only need to attack the leader. - For critical hits and sneak attacks, it should rolled to see if it really hit the leader. How about adding a Light, Moderate or Heavy fortification ? A Fine swarm has 25% to get hit by a critical hit, a Diminutive swarm has 50% and a Tiny swarm has 75%. What do you think ?
howlingwolf 12-31-05, 04:33 PM	A alternative if involving epic levels is the Paragon template from the epic handbook. However that's more in terms of raw numbers, ( Enhancement bonuses, racial bonuses, insight bonuses, etc. ) than extra powers. Also for the singular being. Granted could also chop -those- numbers to make them scale down.
Draconigeno 12-31-05, 07:57 PM	Good suggestions. How's this sound? Evolved Swarm (Ex) Any magical effect affecting the leader, beneficial or not, affects the rest of the swarm. The leader is the only swarm member whom is able to use magic items, that are appropriate to it's size, but the effects spread to the whole swarm. For example, the energy resistance from a Ring of Energy Resistance, protects the entire swarm, not only the leader. -A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking (See Hivemind). -A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. -A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. -Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or lower causes it to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. -Evolved swarms can be staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage as this eliminates swarm members from the hive mind. An evolved swarm can be killed by destroying the leader, whom is considered as having total concealment for purposes of combat. -Swarms cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent. -Sneak attacks as well as critical hits can affect the swarm by hitting the leader. This happens 25% of the time with a swarm of fine creatures, 50% of the time with a swarm of diminutive Creatures and 75% of the time with tiny creatures. -Due to the extent that evolved swarms are linked, they are treated as a single creature for Transmutation and Enchantment spells. A swarm is still immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate) unless such attacks target the leader, with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. -A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells. Swarms made up of Diminutive or Fine creatures are susceptible to high winds such as that created by a gust of wind spell. For purposes of determining the effects of wind on a swarm, treat the swarm as a creature of the same size as its constituent creatures. A swarm rendered unconscious by means of nonlethal damage becomes disorganized and dispersed, and does not reform until its hit points exceed its nonlethal damage.
JiCi 12-31-05, 08:49 PM	Good, very good. Now all you need to do is update your first post and maybe you could also put some text format (bold titles, italic names) so it could be easier to read.
JiCi 01-09-06, 06:03 PM	Here's a partial list of various LAs of various creatures in the monstrous manual that are applicible with the template. It's a rough list since I could not find any aids to figure out LA aside from Soldarin's ECL Calculator, which I tend to use more for figuring out ECL/LA for humanoid characters than compiling a list like this. A few of them have LAs that seem a little low to me, those ones are marked with a question mark. A lot of them seem to be prohibitively high in ECL when the template as well as racial HD are added, these ones would likely be best saved for Epic campaignes if used at all. Coming next, LA of Animals & Vermin :)Don't want to be rude or aggressive, but may I ask you when are you going to post LAs for highly evolved "standard" animals and vermins ? And why do I have the term highly evolved living spell in my head ?
Draconigeno 01-11-06, 10:42 AM	Sorry for the delay, some problems with my family derailed any chance at my working on it but everything's allright now so I'll have the Animal LA list tomarrow and the Vermin one shortly afterwards.
Draconigeno 01-11-06, 01:53 PM	JiCi <Don't want to be rude or aggressive, but may I ask you when are you going to post LAs for highly evolved "standard" animals and vermins ?> Naw, not rude or aggressive, like I said in my initial post, I have had a lot of family problems going on. Not to get into it my family lives in Altoona, PA while I live in Marshall, MN so the distance adds to the stress a bit so it takes a while to sort things out. Finished the Animal LAs early so I updated the LA list earlier in this thread. Also changed the names to Bold so it was easier to read. <And why do I have the term highly evolved living spell in my head ?> I've heard of a template called that but it's not one I have myself but so long as it fits the criteria, or not if one wants to take 'DM's License' and alter the template to allow them ;) then it would be possible but I caution letting players use any animals/living spells with too high a LA. I actually had one player, a rather hyper munchkin, whom wanted to play a Tyrannosaur Barbarian :rolleyes: at one point when I let the players look over the template.
TheLastOfTheFallen 01-11-06, 01:57 PM	The creature's type changes to magical beast (augmented animal) if the base creature's type was Animal or Magical Beast (augmented Vermin) if the base creature was Vermin. If the base creature was of the Ooze or Vermin type then their type becomes Abberation So which does a Vermin become, Magical Beast or Abberation?
Draconigeno 01-11-06, 02:08 PM	Magical beast (Augmented Vermin), the bit about them becoming abberations was from an earlier version of the template that I missed. *Goes to remedy that*
TheLastOfTheFallen 01-11-06, 02:11 PM	Magical beast (Augmented Vermin), the bit about them becoming abberations was from an earlier version of the template that I missed. *Goes to remedy that* Ahh, ok. That little comment aside, I love the template. Very interesting. I think it would be fun to unleash an Evolved Living Blasphemy Warlock against my party as a new BBEG. I was wondering if your players had made characters with this template yet, and what they ended up doing. Also, it would be nice to see some sample characters using this template, though I can understand you probably don’t have time to mix them up.
JiCi 01-11-06, 07:23 PM	Is that list of creatures' LAs WITH the template or WITHOUT the template ?
Draconigeno 01-11-06, 07:55 PM	Jici The list is of the applicible creatures without the template applied.
JiCi 01-11-06, 08:16 PM	The list is of the applicible creatures without the template applied.Oh it's without the template. Ok, thanks for clearing this up.
Draconigeno 01-11-06, 08:52 PM	JiCi No problem. Will be adding a little part under Hit Dice to try and offset some of the high ECL that can result from adding the templates. TheLastOfTheFallen Actually there is one character, an Ape Barbarian named Kong, whom I will post to the thread as soon as I put him into stat-block form.
Draconigeno 02-09-06, 01:39 PM	Been a long time since I updated the template's LA list. Did the first batch of Vermin LAs, will post the others as soon as I figure them out.
JiCi 02-09-06, 07:05 PM	Been a long time since I updated the template's LA list. Did the first batch of Vermin LAs, will post the others as soon as I figure them out.Hey ! good to see you, is been a while since we saw you ! So a giant wasp is ECL 7 (5 HD + 2 LA = 7 ECL) heh ? That's nice, except for the part that it is getting close to that dumbhead of Waspinator from Beast Wars. :P
Draconigeno 02-09-06, 07:46 PM	JiCi Lol, near as I can figure that's what the LA/ECL comes out to be. Hadn't thought of the waspinator angle but it does remind one of Waspinator. Not a bad show, beast wars, but I always thought it needed explained better how it fit in with the rest of the transformer's universe.