Evolved Undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Evolved Undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
meta
11-29-06, 09:46 AM Hi all. I recently bought Libris Mortis, and have been exploring the wonders of NPC undead, necromancers, etc. Among many of the things discussed in the book, I really like the idea of Evolved Undead (pg 99). I've been playing around with the stats, just for the heck of it, and thought I'd share some of the (amusing and interesting) results.

The idea behind evolved undead is that the longer an undead survives, the more likely it is to gain in power. Game mechanically, there is a 1% (plus 1% per previous evolution) chance each century an undead survives that it will "evolve" (+1 natural armor, one of various spell-like abilities usable once/day, fast healing 3, +2 Strength, +2 Charisma), and an undead can evolve multiple times, with effects stacking with each other.

Here are some statistics about very long lived undead for your amusement. Based on a trivial little script that iterates 100,000 times (emulating 100,000 individual undead entities) and counts the number of times each entity evolves (using the above 1% + 1%/evolution rule).

Limiting ourselves to 10,000 years, it is interesting to note that 36.8% of the undead never evolve (it is hardest to evolve the first time, after all). 23.1% evolve exactly once, 14.8% evolve twice, 9.3% evolve 3 times, 5.9% evolve 4 times, 3.75% evolve 5 times, 2.4% evolve 6 times, etc. The interesting thing is that one particularily impressive undead entity manages to evolve 24 times over a 10,000 year period.

Now, we can probably all agree that it is unlikely that an undead creature will survive 10,000 years in an area populated by those freaky-ass Pelor-obsessed clerics waving around holy symbols and all sorts of pun-pun style undead-hating munchin characters hunting them down. But we can easily imagine some reclusive lich spending 10,000 years in its own demiplane contemplating the best response to the Sicilian defense in chess, or some equally fascinating topic. Undead that don't kill things tend not to get killed, after all. And just because one is horribly evil doesn't mean they can't like chess :-) Maybe Mr. Lich has a mild case of OCD that makes him veg out in demi-plane land for 100 centuries.

The problem is, an undead that evolves 24 times starts getting a little silly. A natural AC bonus of +24, fast heal 72, +48 Strength, +48 Charisma, not to mention the 24 spell-like abilities (kinda irrelevant to most liches with their uber spell abilities, but damn useful for all sorts of other undead).

Things get more and more crazy the longer we allow these undead to survive. Limiting ourselves to 20,000 years, 13.6% never evolve (poor pathetic little dudes), 11.5% evolve once, 9.9% evolve twice, etc. etc. One in 100,000 undead will evolve 71 times in 20,000 years.

An interesting phenomenon occurs if we extend our time horizon to 30,000 years - we end up getting undead that evolve more than 99 times. And, using the rules for evolution as written, that means they are guaranteed to evolve every single century thereafter. 4.7% never evolve during this time period, 4.7% evolve once, 4.5% evolve twice, etc., but there are numerous undead (424 per 100,000) that evolve more than 99 times (in fact, one undead evolved 188 times during this time period, because she/he managed to evolve 99 times in the first 211 centuries, then every century thereafter for another 89 centuries.

Extending the time horizon to 100,000 years makes it pretty obvious we'd need to change the suggestions for evolved undead somewhat if we are going to assume any undead can live this long. Over this period of time, only 7 in 100000 undead do NOT evolve (and I'm sure they would get killed off long before they got to the age of 100,000 years, if only because the other evolved undead would tease them into non-existence for being so lameass). The other 99993 undead will evolve at least 1 time. In fact, 99553 of them evolve at least 99 times (meaning they always evolve every century thereafter). One undead evolved 879 times over 1000 centuries. Using RAW, this would mean that it has natural AC +879, fast heal 2637, +1758 Strength, +1758 Charisma, and 879 spell-like abilities. The strength alone means it has at least a +879 to attack and damage. And the number of bonus spells granted to a sorcerer lich with a charisma of +1758 is rather amusing (219 extra 1st and 2nd level, 218 extra 3rd-6th level, and 217 extra 7th-9th level spells).

So, I'm wondering if anyone has done any exploration of variations on the idea of evolved undead. For example, vampires are a big thing in the fantasy and horror genres (outside the world of D&D), and I can see much better (and more comprehensive) lists of spell-like abilities for evolved vampires than the list given on pg 100 of LM.
Thiez
11-29-06, 11:27 AM Maybe this is the reason the clerics from pelor are so keen on destroying undead. Because they know there's a danger that some zombie might some day in the future turn them into fanatics by making an untrained diplomacy check ;)
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
11-29-06, 01:45 PM The Fast Healing doesn't stack, by the way. Makes it a bit more manageable.
Critical_Failure
11-29-06, 02:46 PM i want to make a lich!
meta
11-30-06, 09:56 AM Maybe this is the reason the clerics from pelor are so keen on destroying undead. Because they know there's a danger that some zombie might some day in the future turn them into fanatics by making an untrained diplomacy check ;)

Indeed! The potential behind evolved undead using RAW is pretty terrifying, if we want to allow enough back-time. I think it makes sense to limit the number of times an undead can evolve (and to have that number be race-specific). Zombies just shouldn't be able to evolve too far, whereas I can see a vampire evolving maybe 20 times. But evolving 879 times in 100,000 years is just a little too crazy. I simply cannot wrap my head around the CR of an entity that has 217 extra 9th-level spell slots (and similar higher-level slots if they go epic). The amount of pre-combat buffing such an entity could do is mind boggling.
meta
11-30-06, 10:23 AM The Fast Healing doesn't stack, by the way. Makes it a bit more manageable.

This would indeed make them a wee bit more manageable. But what is the reasoning behind concluding they don't stack? (I'm totally fine with that assumption, but the RAW is a little ambiguous). In general, I agree that fast healing doesn't stack, but since the description specifics states that the benefits can be obtained multiple times, there seems to be valid points on both sides of this issue.

For example, since vampires already have 'fast heal 5', does this mean that they do not get any additional fast healing from evolving? Seems a pity, since it makes sense that the more evolved an undead is, the faster it should heal.

Personally, I think a more general structure for evolved undead might work better. Instead of having an undead gain +1 natural armor (which, btw, also normally doesn't stack, but does stack in this situation and in numerous other special case situations in the D&D literature - I wish they would be a little more consist on natural armor issues), +2 Str, +2 Cha, fast heal 3, and a special ability, we could do the following instead:

Each time a vampire evolves, they choose one of the following things to improve:
1) +2 Str and +2 Cha
2) +1 fast heal (stacking with existing fast heal)
3) +1 natural armor
4) acquire a new feat (but only if this evolution is a multiple of 3)
5) acquire a spell-like ability from the following list, usable once per day (multiple uses possible by taking the same ability twice). circle of death, cloudkill, cone of cold, ... However, I think that race-specific lists of special abilities would be more interesting. Especially for vampires, in which I've seen lots of fiction that explores the idea of individual vampires having many varying abilities (harm from a distance, increased power via sexual energy, ability to fly, ability to rot, etc. etc.

Allowing them to pick a new feat every time they evolve might be too excessive if we don't put a limit on how many times they can do so (hence my limitation that feats can only be acquired the 3rd, 6th, 9th, ... time the undead evolves).

However, I think that it makes sense to put a limit on how many times an undead can evolve, and for the limit to vary from race to race. It could be something as simple as "Can only evolve as many times as the original undead has HD", or "Can only evolve N times, where N is the CR of the original undead", etc. Keep in mind that 1 in 100,000 undead can end up evolving 24 times in 10,000 years (and in my simulations, 318 evolved 10 times, 208 evolved 11 times, 137 evolved 12 times, etc. etc.) Without some limit on this process, all the worlds would be ruled by ancient undead unless we put some other limit on things (like a cumulative increase in the likelihood that an undead creature would go bonkers from age, etc.)

I realize there are all sorts of other similar issues wrt undead that have already been discussed. Without additional rules limiting the amount of spawning allowed by undead, it seems only natural to assume that every plane would be completely overrun by undead and nothing but. I just find the evolved undead idea particularily appealing, and want to find some game balance.
meta
11-30-06, 10:28 AM i want to make a lich!

Yeah, I have a soft spot for lich NPCs. I played in an ongoing 6 year campaign awhile back in which our party was adopted by a lich. He would show up and send us on an errand every once in awhile. He had a Deck of Many Things that he would offer party members to draw from. It was pretty amusing how most of the characters were smart enough to resist the temptation. Too much chance for catastrophe to strike :-) After a few characters drew cards, the leaders of the party ruled that we were to all refuse to take a card when offered.

I don't think I'd like a lich as a PC though - but I prefer low-level campaigns - too much of a munchkin factor to deal with at high levels. Each to their own though.
Critical_Failure
11-30-06, 10:53 AM just had an idea

mindflayer lich NPC

sweet boss or what?
qwert
11-30-06, 12:49 PM What, an alhoon? Been there, done that. Not personally, but it's nothing new.
Critical_Failure
11-30-06, 02:04 PM what would the face look like though,

it retains the tenticle attacks but what would they look like?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
11-30-06, 02:09 PM This would indeed make them a wee bit more manageable. But what is the reasoning behind concluding they don't stack?
The fast healing explicitly does not stack. It says so right in the template.
Sildatorak
11-30-06, 04:07 PM A vampire or lich that had evolved 20 times would probably be worse off than a vampire or lich that had evolved 3. Each evolution boosts ECL, making it increasingly difficult for the class-based undead to gain additional HD. Your CR 800+ level 12 sorcerer lich who has evolved 800 times is going to get hurt quite badly when a sun domain cleric of around 15th level manages to beat him in an initiative roll.
meta
11-30-06, 06:35 PM The fast healing explicitly does not stack. It says so right in the template.

You are using the template on page 100 of Libris Mortis, yes? I'm totally missing where it says it. In my version, I see the following relevant sections:

------------------------------------------------
...

Note: Unlike most templates, an evolved undead can potentially acquire this template more than once, evolving more with each application.

...

Special Qualities: An evolved undead retains all the special qualitifes of the base creature and gains the one described below.
Fast Healing (Ex): An evolved undead heals 3 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hp.

------------------------------------------------

I'm not trying to be diffcult - just not seeing where it excludes it. And it does seem kinda unfair that the template is "weaker" for undead that already have fast healing than for those that do. As always, there are valid arguments both ways. Just wondering if there is any official position on this wrt evolved undead.
meta
11-30-06, 06:41 PM A vampire or lich that had evolved 20 times would probably be worse off than a vampire or lich that had evolved 3. Each evolution boosts ECL, making it increasingly difficult for the class-based undead to gain additional HD. Your CR 800+ level 12 sorcerer lich who has evolved 800 times is going to get hurt quite badly when a sun domain cleric of around 15th level manages to beat him in an initiative roll.

Hmmm. I definitely agree that the levelling issue is problematic for undead that want to continuing advancing (and it certainly makes more sense to gain power by advancing a class than to just twiddle one's thumbs for 100,000 years :-) However, just to play a little devils advocate here, I'm not entirely sure the 12th level sorcerer lich evolved 800 times would be bothered by the sun domain cleric. Having something like 226 6th level spell slots available every single day means one ridiculous amount of buffing potential. Would probably be better for a wizard though - more spell flexibility. Anyways - it is an amusing thought experiment, but not one worth a great deal of effort unless WoC sanctions 800 levels of evolution :- )
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
11-30-06, 06:59 PM Nothing stacks unless it is stated that it does.

Gah, meant implicitly.
Adolph_Kheebler
11-30-06, 07:45 PM Nothing stacks unless it is stated that it does.

Yes. And here it says it stacks.

Note: Unlike most templates, an evolved undead can potentially acquire this template more than once, evolving more with each application.

...

Special Qualities: An evolved undead retains all the special qualitifes of the base creature and gains the one described below.
Fast Healing (Ex): An evolved undead heals 3 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hp.

It is utterly ridiculous to say that it doesn't stack here when it says that an evolved undead can gain the template more than once and continue to apply the results. The whole idea of evolved undead is that their connection to the negative energy plane is growing stronger and they are getting more powerful. If the fast heal and the natural armour doesn't stack, then it is worthless and ridiculous.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
11-30-06, 08:36 PM Fast Healing, as an ability, does not stack, hence the use of the word "gain". Natural Armor from templates does, hence the use of the word "increase".
Roivas
11-30-06, 09:07 PM So a 10,000,000 year old lich is a CR 9999 or whatever? Big deal I say. Any Gm who is going to bother making a creature that ungodly powerful, that ironically can still be turned, is crazy. No party is ever going to have to face an undead that has evolved more than 10 times, mostly due to the fact that the template's boosts go under the idea of diminishing returns.
A vampire with the template applied 10 times on top of it's normal CR of lets say 18 is going to be a CR 28 monster with 16 HD. Even with maximum hp the vampire will have 172 hp, and fast healing 35. Any 26th level character can dish out about 100 point of damage a round, and that natural armor +1 isn't going to save them for long. A group effort by 4 26th, or even 24th level characters could topple this creature with hardly any effort.
When you continue along this progression the creature's abilities that aren't effected by the template continue to lag behind making an super evolved undead a creature waiting to get punked. As was said in Evangelion the end of evolution is extinction.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
meta 11-29-06, 09:46 AM	Hi all. I recently bought Libris Mortis, and have been exploring the wonders of NPC undead, necromancers, etc. Among many of the things discussed in the book, I really like the idea of Evolved Undead (pg 99). I've been playing around with the stats, just for the heck of it, and thought I'd share some of the (amusing and interesting) results. The idea behind evolved undead is that the longer an undead survives, the more likely it is to gain in power. Game mechanically, there is a 1% (plus 1% per previous evolution) chance each century an undead survives that it will "evolve" (+1 natural armor, one of various spell-like abilities usable once/day, fast healing 3, +2 Strength, +2 Charisma), and an undead can evolve multiple times, with effects stacking with each other. Here are some statistics about very long lived undead for your amusement. Based on a trivial little script that iterates 100,000 times (emulating 100,000 individual undead entities) and counts the number of times each entity evolves (using the above 1% + 1%/evolution rule). Limiting ourselves to 10,000 years, it is interesting to note that 36.8% of the undead never evolve (it is hardest to evolve the first time, after all). 23.1% evolve exactly once, 14.8% evolve twice, 9.3% evolve 3 times, 5.9% evolve 4 times, 3.75% evolve 5 times, 2.4% evolve 6 times, etc. The interesting thing is that one particularily impressive undead entity manages to evolve 24 times over a 10,000 year period. Now, we can probably all agree that it is unlikely that an undead creature will survive 10,000 years in an area populated by those freaky-ass Pelor-obsessed clerics waving around holy symbols and all sorts of pun-pun style undead-hating munchin characters hunting them down. But we can easily imagine some reclusive lich spending 10,000 years in its own demiplane contemplating the best response to the Sicilian defense in chess, or some equally fascinating topic. Undead that don't kill things tend not to get killed, after all. And just because one is horribly evil doesn't mean they can't like chess :-) Maybe Mr. Lich has a mild case of OCD that makes him veg out in demi-plane land for 100 centuries. The problem is, an undead that evolves 24 times starts getting a little silly. A natural AC bonus of +24, fast heal 72, +48 Strength, +48 Charisma, not to mention the 24 spell-like abilities (kinda irrelevant to most liches with their uber spell abilities, but damn useful for all sorts of other undead). Things get more and more crazy the longer we allow these undead to survive. Limiting ourselves to 20,000 years, 13.6% never evolve (poor pathetic little dudes), 11.5% evolve once, 9.9% evolve twice, etc. etc. One in 100,000 undead will evolve 71 times in 20,000 years. An interesting phenomenon occurs if we extend our time horizon to 30,000 years - we end up getting undead that evolve more than 99 times. And, using the rules for evolution as written, that means they are guaranteed to evolve every single century thereafter. 4.7% never evolve during this time period, 4.7% evolve once, 4.5% evolve twice, etc., but there are numerous undead (424 per 100,000) that evolve more than 99 times (in fact, one undead evolved 188 times during this time period, because she/he managed to evolve 99 times in the first 211 centuries, then every century thereafter for another 89 centuries. Extending the time horizon to 100,000 years makes it pretty obvious we'd need to change the suggestions for evolved undead somewhat if we are going to assume any undead can live this long. Over this period of time, only 7 in 100000 undead do NOT evolve (and I'm sure they would get killed off long before they got to the age of 100,000 years, if only because the other evolved undead would tease them into non-existence for being so lameass). The other 99993 undead will evolve at least 1 time. In fact, 99553 of them evolve at least 99 times (meaning they always evolve every century thereafter). One undead evolved 879 times over 1000 centuries. Using RAW, this would mean that it has natural AC +879, fast heal 2637, +1758 Strength, +1758 Charisma, and 879 spell-like abilities. The strength alone means it has at least a +879 to attack and damage. And the number of bonus spells granted to a sorcerer lich with a charisma of +1758 is rather amusing (219 extra 1st and 2nd level, 218 extra 3rd-6th level, and 217 extra 7th-9th level spells). So, I'm wondering if anyone has done any exploration of variations on the idea of evolved undead. For example, vampires are a big thing in the fantasy and horror genres (outside the world of D&D), and I can see much better (and more comprehensive) lists of spell-like abilities for evolved vampires than the list given on pg 100 of LM.
Thiez 11-29-06, 11:27 AM	Maybe this is the reason the clerics from pelor are so keen on destroying undead. Because they know there's a danger that some zombie might some day in the future turn them into fanatics by making an untrained diplomacy check ;)
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 11-29-06, 01:45 PM	The Fast Healing doesn't stack, by the way. Makes it a bit more manageable.
Critical_Failure 11-29-06, 02:46 PM	i want to make a lich!
meta 11-30-06, 09:56 AM	Maybe this is the reason the clerics from pelor are so keen on destroying undead. Because they know there's a danger that some zombie might some day in the future turn them into fanatics by making an untrained diplomacy check ;) Indeed! The potential behind evolved undead using RAW is pretty terrifying, if we want to allow enough back-time. I think it makes sense to limit the number of times an undead can evolve (and to have that number be race-specific). Zombies just shouldn't be able to evolve too far, whereas I can see a vampire evolving maybe 20 times. But evolving 879 times in 100,000 years is just a little too crazy. I simply cannot wrap my head around the CR of an entity that has 217 extra 9th-level spell slots (and similar higher-level slots if they go epic). The amount of pre-combat buffing such an entity could do is mind boggling.
meta 11-30-06, 10:23 AM	The Fast Healing doesn't stack, by the way. Makes it a bit more manageable. This would indeed make them a wee bit more manageable. But what is the reasoning behind concluding they don't stack? (I'm totally fine with that assumption, but the RAW is a little ambiguous). In general, I agree that fast healing doesn't stack, but since the description specifics states that the benefits can be obtained multiple times, there seems to be valid points on both sides of this issue. For example, since vampires already have 'fast heal 5', does this mean that they do not get any additional fast healing from evolving? Seems a pity, since it makes sense that the more evolved an undead is, the faster it should heal. Personally, I think a more general structure for evolved undead might work better. Instead of having an undead gain +1 natural armor (which, btw, also normally doesn't stack, but does stack in this situation and in numerous other special case situations in the D&D literature - I wish they would be a little more consist on natural armor issues), +2 Str, +2 Cha, fast heal 3, and a special ability, we could do the following instead: Each time a vampire evolves, they choose one of the following things to improve: 1) +2 Str and +2 Cha 2) +1 fast heal (stacking with existing fast heal) 3) +1 natural armor 4) acquire a new feat (but only if this evolution is a multiple of 3) 5) acquire a spell-like ability from the following list, usable once per day (multiple uses possible by taking the same ability twice). circle of death, cloudkill, cone of cold, ... However, I think that race-specific lists of special abilities would be more interesting. Especially for vampires, in which I've seen lots of fiction that explores the idea of individual vampires having many varying abilities (harm from a distance, increased power via sexual energy, ability to fly, ability to rot, etc. etc. Allowing them to pick a new feat every time they evolve might be too excessive if we don't put a limit on how many times they can do so (hence my limitation that feats can only be acquired the 3rd, 6th, 9th, ... time the undead evolves). However, I think that it makes sense to put a limit on how many times an undead can evolve, and for the limit to vary from race to race. It could be something as simple as "Can only evolve as many times as the original undead has HD", or "Can only evolve N times, where N is the CR of the original undead", etc. Keep in mind that 1 in 100,000 undead can end up evolving 24 times in 10,000 years (and in my simulations, 318 evolved 10 times, 208 evolved 11 times, 137 evolved 12 times, etc. etc.) Without some limit on this process, all the worlds would be ruled by ancient undead unless we put some other limit on things (like a cumulative increase in the likelihood that an undead creature would go bonkers from age, etc.) I realize there are all sorts of other similar issues wrt undead that have already been discussed. Without additional rules limiting the amount of spawning allowed by undead, it seems only natural to assume that every plane would be completely overrun by undead and nothing but. I just find the evolved undead idea particularily appealing, and want to find some game balance.
meta 11-30-06, 10:28 AM	i want to make a lich! Yeah, I have a soft spot for lich NPCs. I played in an ongoing 6 year campaign awhile back in which our party was adopted by a lich. He would show up and send us on an errand every once in awhile. He had a Deck of Many Things that he would offer party members to draw from. It was pretty amusing how most of the characters were smart enough to resist the temptation. Too much chance for catastrophe to strike :-) After a few characters drew cards, the leaders of the party ruled that we were to all refuse to take a card when offered. I don't think I'd like a lich as a PC though - but I prefer low-level campaigns - too much of a munchkin factor to deal with at high levels. Each to their own though.
Critical_Failure 11-30-06, 10:53 AM	just had an idea mindflayer lich NPC sweet boss or what?
qwert 11-30-06, 12:49 PM	What, an alhoon? Been there, done that. Not personally, but it's nothing new.
Critical_Failure 11-30-06, 02:04 PM	what would the face look like though, it retains the tenticle attacks but what would they look like?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 11-30-06, 02:09 PM	This would indeed make them a wee bit more manageable. But what is the reasoning behind concluding they don't stack? The fast healing explicitly does not stack. It says so right in the template.
Sildatorak 11-30-06, 04:07 PM	A vampire or lich that had evolved 20 times would probably be worse off than a vampire or lich that had evolved 3. Each evolution boosts ECL, making it increasingly difficult for the class-based undead to gain additional HD. Your CR 800+ level 12 sorcerer lich who has evolved 800 times is going to get hurt quite badly when a sun domain cleric of around 15th level manages to beat him in an initiative roll.
meta 11-30-06, 06:35 PM	The fast healing explicitly does not stack. It says so right in the template. You are using the template on page 100 of Libris Mortis, yes? I'm totally missing where it says it. In my version, I see the following relevant sections: ------------------------------------------------ ... Note: Unlike most templates, an evolved undead can potentially acquire this template more than once, evolving more with each application. ... Special Qualities: An evolved undead retains all the special qualitifes of the base creature and gains the one described below. Fast Healing (Ex): An evolved undead heals 3 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hp. ------------------------------------------------ I'm not trying to be diffcult - just not seeing where it excludes it. And it does seem kinda unfair that the template is "weaker" for undead that already have fast healing than for those that do. As always, there are valid arguments both ways. Just wondering if there is any official position on this wrt evolved undead.
meta 11-30-06, 06:41 PM	A vampire or lich that had evolved 20 times would probably be worse off than a vampire or lich that had evolved 3. Each evolution boosts ECL, making it increasingly difficult for the class-based undead to gain additional HD. Your CR 800+ level 12 sorcerer lich who has evolved 800 times is going to get hurt quite badly when a sun domain cleric of around 15th level manages to beat him in an initiative roll. Hmmm. I definitely agree that the levelling issue is problematic for undead that want to continuing advancing (and it certainly makes more sense to gain power by advancing a class than to just twiddle one's thumbs for 100,000 years :-) However, just to play a little devils advocate here, I'm not entirely sure the 12th level sorcerer lich evolved 800 times would be bothered by the sun domain cleric. Having something like 226 6th level spell slots available every single day means one ridiculous amount of buffing potential. Would probably be better for a wizard though - more spell flexibility. Anyways - it is an amusing thought experiment, but not one worth a great deal of effort unless WoC sanctions 800 levels of evolution :- )
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 11-30-06, 06:59 PM	Nothing stacks unless it is stated that it does. Gah, meant implicitly.
Adolph_Kheebler 11-30-06, 07:45 PM	Nothing stacks unless it is stated that it does. Yes. And here it says it stacks. Note: Unlike most templates, an evolved undead can potentially acquire this template more than once, evolving more with each application. ... Special Qualities: An evolved undead retains all the special qualitifes of the base creature and gains the one described below. Fast Healing (Ex): An evolved undead heals 3 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hp. It is utterly ridiculous to say that it doesn't stack here when it says that an evolved undead can gain the template more than once and continue to apply the results. The whole idea of evolved undead is that their connection to the negative energy plane is growing stronger and they are getting more powerful. If the fast heal and the natural armour doesn't stack, then it is worthless and ridiculous.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 11-30-06, 08:36 PM	Fast Healing, as an ability, does not stack, hence the use of the word "gain". Natural Armor from templates does, hence the use of the word "increase".
Roivas 11-30-06, 09:07 PM	So a 10,000,000 year old lich is a CR 9999 or whatever? Big deal I say. Any Gm who is going to bother making a creature that ungodly powerful, that ironically can still be turned, is crazy. No party is ever going to have to face an undead that has evolved more than 10 times, mostly due to the fact that the template's boosts go under the idea of diminishing returns. A vampire with the template applied 10 times on top of it's normal CR of lets say 18 is going to be a CR 28 monster with 16 HD. Even with maximum hp the vampire will have 172 hp, and fast healing 35. Any 26th level character can dish out about 100 point of damage a round, and that natural armor +1 isn't going to save them for long. A group effort by 4 26th, or even 24th level characters could topple this creature with hardly any effort. When you continue along this progression the creature's abilities that aren't effected by the template continue to lag behind making an super evolved undead a creature waiting to get punked. As was said in Evangelion the end of evolution is extinction.