Experienced Mounts and Long Term Campaigns [Archive] - Wizards Community

Experienced Mounts and Long Term Campaigns [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zitchas
04-27-05, 06:25 PM OK, my question is this: Is there any actual sugested way of progressing mounts throughout gameplay other than the Palladin's mount? Has anyone played in campaigns where mounts were used regularly enough to actually qualify for experience and/or progression? If so, what method was used to do so?

In general, I'm talking about normal mounts: Horses, ponies, camels, etc. These mounts, especially the wartrained, can and do learn through experience. The fresh horse that hasn't seen combat beyond it's war training is a lot less likely to survive than the old vetran who's seen many wars. (so long as age, disease, health and other factors don't kick in, anyway) So how is best to incorporate this?

I've got a couple ideas for this, but I'm not too sure how they work out in the long term. Mounts should never get to be hugely powerfull in and of themselves. I'm thinking, for a general frame work, that mounts that start off in the range of 1 CR shouldn't ever exceed a CR of 10, and even that's probably too high. (I'm running on the basis of a mount that the PC starts off with at level 1 and rides regularly through to level 20. And actually rides the mount in combat. If he's never using it in combat or for anything but sheer travel it's not going to progress much at all.

First idea: For every three levels the mount's rider gains, the mount gains an extra hit dice. For each hit dice it gains, it gets an additional rank in that mount's basic skills (the ones it has in the MM. Usually spot and listen), and an extra rank to be placed somewhere apropriate to what the mount has been through (balance, tumble, use rope, jump, could be good ones). Every two hit dice it gains it gets an ability increase. These should usually not be put in Int or Cha unless you're RPing a particularly bright mount. Every three hit dice it gains it gets a feat. Restricted to mount appropriate feats. Again, common sense here, limited to ones suitable for an animal. Adjust saving throws according to hit dice. Most mounts have good fort, some have good reflexes, and almost all have poor will saves.

Second idea: Give the mount "points" for each learning situation (aka unusual or combat) the mount goes through. Every, say, ten points the mount gains a hit dice. Use the same system as above for bonus ability scores, skills, and feats.

Depending on the campaign and how much of an effect that one wants mounts to have on general gameplay, adjust the number of the rider's levels or number of points required for each gained hitdice. By the first idea, a mount used solidly through to 20th level will result in it having +6 hitdice, +3 ability bonus, +2 feats. Which will deffinitly make for a powerfull mount, although I don't think it should overpower things. Although at higher levels, depending on campaign time span, the age category of the mount may start having an effect.
Thomar_of_Uointer
04-27-05, 07:09 PM You mean if I just buy a horse and keep it with me as I go on my adventures?

I would do simple Hit Die advancement ad hoc.
Zitchas
04-27-05, 10:12 PM Yes, although with the restriction that you actually have to be doing stuff with it, not just riding it to the ruins and leaving it tied up in shelter while you go inside to fight.

I was thinking of that, but seemed too powerfull to me. Even if you do nothing in regards to skills, ability scores, or feats, having (eventually) a 23 hit die horse seems rather powerfull to me. Essentially, it lets everyone have a horse familiar, and allows those who get familiars to have a horse and their normal one. And takes a large chunk out of a Palladin's special mount. And it would make having a mount of some kind almost essential. I'd rather keep it in the realm of usefull and strong, but not brokenly so. This would be why I toned it down a chunk. It's supposed to be a mount that has learned somewhat through adventuring with you, not a full out NPC companion.

Which is another idea: Treat it like a cohort, albeit a very dumb one. I think my first idea's probably best.
Zitchas
04-28-05, 01:41 PM Another would simply be to give the mount a skill point for every serious encounter it goes through (or several, DM's discretion). Every so often (say, five to ten skill points) give it an additional hit die. (with resulting save increases, although nothing else) When the DM deems it apropriate, a stat increase or feat could be dolled out. This method is more of a DM reward to the player for using the mount regularly and/or RPing well. But it could still work fairly effectively.

Anyway, any thoughts, all you who have glanced through this without posting?
Zitchas
05-04-05, 12:17 AM Anyway, a proposed way of dealing with progression and some thoughts...

For simplicity, this is based on the main rider’s Character Level (CL). Using a combination of the Paladins mount table and the Animal Companion tables to create a progression that mirrors these two pre-established patterns without equaling or surpassing them. If everyone can get a super mount, then the paladins divinely gifted mount is rather less special, which isn't good. Those animals granted as part of class abilities should remain a deffinite several notchs above these "experienced" normal mounts. This is also compared to the Ranger’s and Druid’s animal companion. All in all, comparing at 20th level, it works out to being about 1/3 as powerfull as a Druid’s compainion, about 2/3 that of a rangers. In sheer hp, it’s about 3/4 as powerfull as a palladin’s mount, but is much, much weaker in other aspects (doesn’t gain improved evasion, SR, int, huge nat armor increase, and numerous other benefits)

Lvl___B.HD___Nat Armor___Special
2____+1______+1_________free trick
3-4__ +2______+1_________attentive mount, free trick
6-8__ +2______+2_________evasion
9-11_ +3______+3_________bonus feat, free trick
12-14_+3_____+4_________herd leader
15-17_+4_____+5_________free trick
18-20_+5_____+6_________bonus feat

(sorry, don't have time to make a table, and the original was posted in forums where all the extra spaces and tabs got deleted)

Hit Dice increase: At each level grouping the mount gains an additional hit dice. With each such increase, adjust the BAB, FS, RS, and WS as appropriate

Attentive mount: As of 3rd level, the mount is more attentive to a rider’s signals. The rider may make one free ride check at no cost per round. The rider gains +2 to all handle animal and ride checks made in regards to this mount.

Free trick: at this level the mount learns a new trick through experience. This trick should be chosen to reflect things that the mount has been exposed to or has been pushed to do.

evasion: as per rogue special ability

bonus feat: the mount may chose any applicable feat, but it must meet all prerequisites.

herd leader: At this level the mount is a longtime veteran of adventuring, campaigning, and general warfare. It’s overall experience with the world and combat in specific make it a notch above others of it’s kind, a true alpha member of it’s herd. It adds it’s number of hitdice to all will saves. It also adds half it’s hitdice to any diplomacy, bluff, or intimidation checks made against others of it’s own kind.

Ability score increase: At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level the mount increases any one ability score by one point. These bonus points cannot be used to boost a mount’s Int score past 5 unless it started out higher than that.

Natural Armor increase: at each hit dice grouping the mount gains an additional point of natural armor. This increase stacks with all other natural armor increases, including feats and magical items.

thoughts, anyone?
CzarGarrett
05-04-05, 09:08 AM Thats something I would have done.

Every X number of class levels, the mount gets +1 HD, maybe +4 skill points. And every 2X class levels, 1 feat.

Sounds good though, what you have.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zitchas 04-27-05, 06:25 PM	OK, my question is this: Is there any actual sugested way of progressing mounts throughout gameplay other than the Palladin's mount? Has anyone played in campaigns where mounts were used regularly enough to actually qualify for experience and/or progression? If so, what method was used to do so? In general, I'm talking about normal mounts: Horses, ponies, camels, etc. These mounts, especially the wartrained, can and do learn through experience. The fresh horse that hasn't seen combat beyond it's war training is a lot less likely to survive than the old vetran who's seen many wars. (so long as age, disease, health and other factors don't kick in, anyway) So how is best to incorporate this? I've got a couple ideas for this, but I'm not too sure how they work out in the long term. Mounts should never get to be hugely powerfull in and of themselves. I'm thinking, for a general frame work, that mounts that start off in the range of 1 CR shouldn't ever exceed a CR of 10, and even that's probably too high. (I'm running on the basis of a mount that the PC starts off with at level 1 and rides regularly through to level 20. And actually rides the mount in combat. If he's never using it in combat or for anything but sheer travel it's not going to progress much at all. First idea: For every three levels the mount's rider gains, the mount gains an extra hit dice. For each hit dice it gains, it gets an additional rank in that mount's basic skills (the ones it has in the MM. Usually spot and listen), and an extra rank to be placed somewhere apropriate to what the mount has been through (balance, tumble, use rope, jump, could be good ones). Every two hit dice it gains it gets an ability increase. These should usually not be put in Int or Cha unless you're RPing a particularly bright mount. Every three hit dice it gains it gets a feat. Restricted to mount appropriate feats. Again, common sense here, limited to ones suitable for an animal. Adjust saving throws according to hit dice. Most mounts have good fort, some have good reflexes, and almost all have poor will saves. Second idea: Give the mount "points" for each learning situation (aka unusual or combat) the mount goes through. Every, say, ten points the mount gains a hit dice. Use the same system as above for bonus ability scores, skills, and feats. Depending on the campaign and how much of an effect that one wants mounts to have on general gameplay, adjust the number of the rider's levels or number of points required for each gained hitdice. By the first idea, a mount used solidly through to 20th level will result in it having +6 hitdice, +3 ability bonus, +2 feats. Which will deffinitly make for a powerfull mount, although I don't think it should overpower things. Although at higher levels, depending on campaign time span, the age category of the mount may start having an effect.
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-27-05, 07:09 PM	You mean if I just buy a horse and keep it with me as I go on my adventures? I would do simple Hit Die advancement ad hoc.
Zitchas 04-27-05, 10:12 PM	Yes, although with the restriction that you actually have to be doing stuff with it, not just riding it to the ruins and leaving it tied up in shelter while you go inside to fight. I was thinking of that, but seemed too powerfull to me. Even if you do nothing in regards to skills, ability scores, or feats, having (eventually) a 23 hit die horse seems rather powerfull to me. Essentially, it lets everyone have a horse familiar, and allows those who get familiars to have a horse and their normal one. And takes a large chunk out of a Palladin's special mount. And it would make having a mount of some kind almost essential. I'd rather keep it in the realm of usefull and strong, but not brokenly so. This would be why I toned it down a chunk. It's supposed to be a mount that has learned somewhat through adventuring with you, not a full out NPC companion. Which is another idea: Treat it like a cohort, albeit a very dumb one. I think my first idea's probably best.
Zitchas 04-28-05, 01:41 PM	Another would simply be to give the mount a skill point for every serious encounter it goes through (or several, DM's discretion). Every so often (say, five to ten skill points) give it an additional hit die. (with resulting save increases, although nothing else) When the DM deems it apropriate, a stat increase or feat could be dolled out. This method is more of a DM reward to the player for using the mount regularly and/or RPing well. But it could still work fairly effectively. Anyway, any thoughts, all you who have glanced through this without posting?
Zitchas 05-04-05, 12:17 AM	Anyway, a proposed way of dealing with progression and some thoughts... For simplicity, this is based on the main rider’s Character Level (CL). Using a combination of the Paladins mount table and the Animal Companion tables to create a progression that mirrors these two pre-established patterns without equaling or surpassing them. If everyone can get a super mount, then the paladins divinely gifted mount is rather less special, which isn't good. Those animals granted as part of class abilities should remain a deffinite several notchs above these "experienced" normal mounts. This is also compared to the Ranger’s and Druid’s animal companion. All in all, comparing at 20th level, it works out to being about 1/3 as powerfull as a Druid’s compainion, about 2/3 that of a rangers. In sheer hp, it’s about 3/4 as powerfull as a palladin’s mount, but is much, much weaker in other aspects (doesn’t gain improved evasion, SR, int, huge nat armor increase, and numerous other benefits) Lvl___B.HD___Nat Armor___Special 2____+1______+1_________free trick 3-4__ +2______+1_________attentive mount, free trick 6-8__ +2______+2_________evasion 9-11_ +3______+3_________bonus feat, free trick 12-14_+3_____+4_________herd leader 15-17_+4_____+5_________free trick 18-20_+5_____+6_________bonus feat (sorry, don't have time to make a table, and the original was posted in forums where all the extra spaces and tabs got deleted) Hit Dice increase: At each level grouping the mount gains an additional hit dice. With each such increase, adjust the BAB, FS, RS, and WS as appropriate Attentive mount: As of 3rd level, the mount is more attentive to a rider’s signals. The rider may make one free ride check at no cost per round. The rider gains +2 to all handle animal and ride checks made in regards to this mount. Free trick: at this level the mount learns a new trick through experience. This trick should be chosen to reflect things that the mount has been exposed to or has been pushed to do. evasion: as per rogue special ability bonus feat: the mount may chose any applicable feat, but it must meet all prerequisites. herd leader: At this level the mount is a longtime veteran of adventuring, campaigning, and general warfare. It’s overall experience with the world and combat in specific make it a notch above others of it’s kind, a true alpha member of it’s herd. It adds it’s number of hitdice to all will saves. It also adds half it’s hitdice to any diplomacy, bluff, or intimidation checks made against others of it’s own kind. Ability score increase: At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level the mount increases any one ability score by one point. These bonus points cannot be used to boost a mount’s Int score past 5 unless it started out higher than that. Natural Armor increase: at each hit dice grouping the mount gains an additional point of natural armor. This increase stacks with all other natural armor increases, including feats and magical items. thoughts, anyone?
CzarGarrett 05-04-05, 09:08 AM	Thats something I would have done. Every X number of class levels, the mount gets +1 HD, maybe +4 skill points. And every 2X class levels, 1 feat. Sounds good though, what you have.