Post/Author/DateTime	Post
runestar 04-12-07, 08:13 AM	As you would all be aware of, monsters in the MM(and other splatbooks) have wealth as per the monster treasure guidelines in the DMG. They are quite paltry, but they are there nonetheless. My question is how far do you enforce this guidelines and outfit the monsters accordingly? I am asking since many monsters in the MM do not have any eq listed in their stat blocks, or simply equipped with token equipment. Take for example the bearded devil. At cr5, it gets 1600gp worth of treasure. How you would handle this? I would perhaps give it a masterwork glaive and studded leather armour, maybe a potion or 2 and the rest consisting of gold/gems/etc. Naturally, its stats would have to be adjusted accordingly. Then comes the big guns like dragons, with quad the typical wealth guidelines. This means they should have access to quite a few potent magic items in their stash, not to mention powerful scrolls and the like. Do you have the dragon use them in combat, or simply let them collect dust? I am curious because our dms have been doing the former for quite some time now, and we are wondering if this has already been factored into said monster's cr or not. For example, a balor's cr is 20. Does this take into consideration the 80000gp worth of magic gear it can potentially access, or must that be calculated separately?:confused: It would definitely be a lot stronger with access to a monk's belt, bracers of armour and maybe a oil of greater magic weapon on its vorpal longsword. Thanks everyone for your insight and feedback.:)
Yayhya 04-12-07, 08:32 AM	I convert the loot into GP and use it to buy items for the monster. Dragons natrauly kepp a lot of there loot in coins and gems etc . . . but in my games they have lots and lots of items. Yeah you would have to change the monsters stats but thats simple enogh. . .
Leilond 04-12-07, 08:33 AM	Usually X thousand golds of treasure means treasures divided among different types, like the DMG tables about treasure clearly demostrate I usually give 1/4 treasure in "permanent magic items" (like armor, weapon, rings, amulet and so on) and the monster will wear and use them if it can, 1/4 of treasure is in "limited use item" (like scrolls, potions, wands, staves) and the monster will use them if it can, 1/4 in jewelery and art objects, 1/4 coins Obviously different monster will have different distributions. Wizards, for examples, will surely have more "scrolls and wands" than "magical weapons and armor", while an Ogre Barbarian will not have "sorcerer scroll" except for those that he didn't find a place/sorcerer to sell them
runestar 04-13-07, 10:13 PM	What about the case for powerful fiends, such as balors and pitfiends, which actually quad standard treasure, in addition to any other magic items listed in their stat block? This means that a balor, apart from his vorpal longsword and flaming whip, also gets an additional 320,000gp of treasure. Assuming we reserve about 1/2 for gold and gems, this still leaves 160,000gp worth of magic gear for him to use. Technically, he is supposed to get only 80,000gp of gear, but I noticed that entries such as the Molydeus(fiendish codex) clearly violate this trend, so I assume its treasure allocation guidelines are interchangeable. How many of you just throw naked balors at the PCs and call that a cr20? How many of you have actually outfitted them properly prior to combat? I am wondering because 160,000gp worth of extra treasure is a very significant difference that can make all that difference in combat. This allows the balor to be equipped with monk's belt, bracers of armour, cloak of resistance, amulet of NA and still have some left over for whatever best caters to the fight. Maybe an amulet of mighty fists for the pit fiend so he can overcome dr/magic. Which is the true cr20? A naked balor or a balor outfitted to the teeth with magic gear?:confused:
Gnarl 04-14-07, 08:16 AM	I've never played past 15th level so I can't say anything about the higher levels. In the games I run, I try to stick as much as possible to the suggested wealth per encounter. I tried a lot of combinations: random treasure, selecting magic items using this suggested wealth per level to equip my baddies, a combination of both. I currently use the later method. All of the above combinations failed to equip properly my PCs. Even with item creation feats and the expenditure of thousands of experiences points, my PCs barely managed to make it to average wealth per level. When you equip your bad guys using their money, you end up giving only half the normal treasure since you almost always end up buying items the PCs don’t need anymore (rings of protection, cloaks of resistance, magic weapons and so on). The only reliable method I have found so far to ensure that my PCs get the gear they should have for their level is to keep track of both awarded experience and wealth, and hand out money so that all PCs have average wealth per level by the time they make it to their next level. This requires two adjustments: adding a little extra money per character to take into account the expenditure of potions, scrolls and wands; and counting minor magic items at one-half their market price. This way, I can spice up my encounters giving the bad guys some gear and still enforce average wealth per level.
runestar 04-14-07, 09:04 AM	Yah, that happens to us sometimes. Most of our loot tends to end up being sold on the open market at 1/2 price since they are usually inferior to the existing eq we are using(with the gimped npc wealth guidelines, it is usually better to buy a variety of minor magic items than have 1 or 2 powerful ones). The shortfall is usually literally thrown in our faces in the form of treasure chests and the like. :P And we don't count potions consumed as part of their starting treasure. This way, monsters can still buff themselves on the cheap, and we don't feel cheated.:)
blindcynic 04-14-07, 01:31 PM	This is an interesting thread particularly since I have been in the three day process of making a very old red dragon. With all that treasure I found it difficult NOT to equip him with stuff. Particularly since he's way smarter than me and I WOULD buy stuff, beg, steal or borrow to get magical equipment. A very old dragon just KNOWS that someone out their is after his treasure and he must defend it. Not to mention he probably has **** off a lot of folks getting that treasure. If the gargantuan genius knows to put traps in his lair and enslave minions as guards/tools it only stands to reason that he has beneficial equipment. In my mind this should NOT raise the CR for anything over CR 14 simply because characters in my campaigns often just walk through basic monsters without some sort of equipment or whatever. To that end I gave the dragon a medallion of huge proportions that acts as a greater rod of chaining, +2 wingspurs of disspelling and two special earrings. 1 that acts as a ring of counterspells (Cone of cold) and the other acts as a ring of ring of energy resistance (Acid). Plus he has a greater resistance spell permanently placed on him, and I picked some feats that suit his spells and tactical abilities. These items are NOT party specific, to my knowledge the party wizard doesn't even know cone of cold or use acid that often. However, the dragon is smart and knows that he has a vulnerability to cold and would likely shore that up. As for the acid resistance I thought that fit the story nicely as he once fought a black dragon and likely prepared for that in some way. To put it even further I think the dragon will buy equipment or supply minions with party specific equipment if they tick him off and he has time to research them. So what I am trying to say here in a really, longwinded way is that the balor should have equipment, the dragon and all intelligent NPC's/monsters should have good equipment and spend a significant portion of their wealth on items that will help them survive and succeed.
Ebonyte 04-15-07, 12:37 AM	Speaking personally, I like to make my treasure piles more personal. Jewelery, paintings, expensive mundane objects (heavily jeweled masterwork swords, etc), or even arcane components and the like (nothing like that diamond dust for a Raise Dead right when you need it!) The way I like to keep this down is to assume that plenty of monsters DON'T keep all of their wealth and possessions on them at all times. After all, while an adventurer (before they start taking over the materiel plane as we know it) may carry their world with them, plenty of people are packrats who have all their mementos in their homes. So who's to say that that orc isn't carrying all of his treasure? Maybe it's back at the village? Or the conniving vampire aristocrat, maybe she has it invested in banks or some such. And there's always the old pirate treasure map standby: Maybe Jack Rackam had 50000 good dubloons, but 40000 of them were buried somewhere "safe".
Slagger the Chuul 04-15-07, 01:02 AM	The way I like to keep this down is to assume that plenty of monsters DON'T keep all of their wealth and possessions on them at all times. After all, while an adventurer (before they start taking over the materiel plane as we know it) may carry their world with them, plenty of people are packrats who have all their mementos in their homes. For a lot of people, a substantial amount of money is invested not just in things to keep at home, but in the homes themselves. It costs a lot of personal wealth to put up a decent wizard's tower or forbidding lair of evil.