Fair to remove hit dice? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fair to remove hit dice? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gemstone
09-06-07, 06:46 AM I've been toying with the idea to remove the hit dice for such creatures as Centaurs and ogres, to lower their ECL and make them more playable... those this sound fair, or will it grossly overpower them to give them better HD?
runestar
09-06-07, 08:04 AM Racial HD should serve to mitigate what would otherwise be a higher LA. Thus, if a centaur had no racial HD, you would probably need to increase its LA to balance it out.
Omega_Grey
09-06-07, 08:23 AM I dont know if Racial Hit Dice really exist to mitigate a higher ecl or not. I've heard it many times and at one point believe it, but I dont really see how that is true, all it does is give me a few 'useless' levels that are actually worse (usually) then the warrior NPC class. The best advice I can give is take the base creature as is and add four levels to it (such as a centaur barbarian 4) and one without it and make it be the same level (centaur barbarian 8) and a human of the same level (Human barbarian 10) and see if any is more powerful.
runestar
09-06-07, 10:35 AM It should in theory at least. Whether wotc actually follows their own advice is another matter though. I saw this trend in the ethergaunts entry in fiend folio, where the more powerful versions actually had a lower LA despite being far more powerful. The only viable explanation is that the massive amounts of aberration HD they had helped in lowering their total LA.

For instance, in your example, imagine a centaur without any racial HD, and 4 lvs of barb in its place instead. This is obviously far superior to a MM centaur. Likewise, consider its bonuses in a vacuum. +8str, +4dex/con, +2wis, -2int, +2NA, good speed and natural weapons, this is clearly worth at least LA+3, or even low LA+4 (considerably more powerful than the half-dragon template, but less so than half-celestial).

Likewise, compare the ogre (MM) vs the half-ogre (RoD). Both have the same LA of +2, but the ogre has better stats than the half-ogre, and wotc is not known for being generous when it comes to determining LA. The only explanation is that the ogre's 4 giant HD served in lowering what would otherwise have been a LA > +2.
RobbyPants
09-06-07, 12:00 PM I dont know if Racial Hit Dice really exist to mitigate a higher ecl or not. I've heard it many times and at one point believe it, but I dont really see how that is true, all it does is give me a few 'useless' levels that are actually worse (usually) then the warrior NPC class. The best advice I can give is take the base creature as is and add four levels to it (such as a centaur barbarian 4) and one without it and make it be the same level (centaur barbarian 8) and a human of the same level (Human barbarian 10) and see if any is more powerful.
I agree with Runestar on this one.

I don't think that the RHD themselves exist to mitigate the ECL, but rather, they're taken into account when assigning the LA for the creature. It's sort of like solving an alegebra equation for one unknown. In this case ECL = X + RHD, where X is an appropriate LA for the creature. The RHD have already been established in the monster entry, and the ECL needs to be evaluated before you can correctly apply a suitable LA.

Of course, I'll be the first to say that there are some very bad LA assignments in the book, and this is in no way a nice system.
Ogreman
09-06-07, 05:29 PM I'd have to say yeah, runestar is right. You could remove or reduce the racial hit dice, but you'd have to bump up the LA in its place. You might end up with a slightly lower ECL this way, but you don't want to watch in terror as mind flayer psions and troll barbarians tear your campaign a new one.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gemstone 09-06-07, 06:46 AM	I've been toying with the idea to remove the hit dice for such creatures as Centaurs and ogres, to lower their ECL and make them more playable... those this sound fair, or will it grossly overpower them to give them better HD?
runestar 09-06-07, 08:04 AM	Racial HD should serve to mitigate what would otherwise be a higher LA. Thus, if a centaur had no racial HD, you would probably need to increase its LA to balance it out.
Omega_Grey 09-06-07, 08:23 AM	I dont know if Racial Hit Dice really exist to mitigate a higher ecl or not. I've heard it many times and at one point believe it, but I dont really see how that is true, all it does is give me a few 'useless' levels that are actually worse (usually) then the warrior NPC class. The best advice I can give is take the base creature as is and add four levels to it (such as a centaur barbarian 4) and one without it and make it be the same level (centaur barbarian 8) and a human of the same level (Human barbarian 10) and see if any is more powerful.
runestar 09-06-07, 10:35 AM	It should in theory at least. Whether wotc actually follows their own advice is another matter though. I saw this trend in the ethergaunts entry in fiend folio, where the more powerful versions actually had a lower LA despite being far more powerful. The only viable explanation is that the massive amounts of aberration HD they had helped in lowering their total LA. For instance, in your example, imagine a centaur without any racial HD, and 4 lvs of barb in its place instead. This is obviously far superior to a MM centaur. Likewise, consider its bonuses in a vacuum. +8str, +4dex/con, +2wis, -2int, +2NA, good speed and natural weapons, this is clearly worth at least LA+3, or even low LA+4 (considerably more powerful than the half-dragon template, but less so than half-celestial). Likewise, compare the ogre (MM) vs the half-ogre (RoD). Both have the same LA of +2, but the ogre has better stats than the half-ogre, and wotc is not known for being generous when it comes to determining LA. The only explanation is that the ogre's 4 giant HD served in lowering what would otherwise have been a LA > +2.
RobbyPants 09-06-07, 12:00 PM	I dont know if Racial Hit Dice really exist to mitigate a higher ecl or not. I've heard it many times and at one point believe it, but I dont really see how that is true, all it does is give me a few 'useless' levels that are actually worse (usually) then the warrior NPC class. The best advice I can give is take the base creature as is and add four levels to it (such as a centaur barbarian 4) and one without it and make it be the same level (centaur barbarian 8) and a human of the same level (Human barbarian 10) and see if any is more powerful. I agree with Runestar on this one. I don't think that the RHD themselves exist to mitigate the ECL, but rather, they're taken into account when assigning the LA for the creature. It's sort of like solving an alegebra equation for one unknown. In this case ECL = X + RHD, where X is an appropriate LA for the creature. The RHD have already been established in the monster entry, and the ECL needs to be evaluated before you can correctly apply a suitable LA. Of course, I'll be the first to say that there are some very bad LA assignments in the book, and this is in no way a nice system.
Ogreman 09-06-07, 05:29 PM	I'd have to say yeah, runestar is right. You could remove or reduce the racial hit dice, but you'd have to bump up the LA in its place. You might end up with a slightly lower ECL this way, but you don't want to watch in terror as mind flayer psions and troll barbarians tear your campaign a new one.