Fallen Angels in 3.5 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fallen Angels in 3.5 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Thorsbjorn
12-04-07, 03:36 PM I know that 4E is going to make all devils fallen angels, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that one or perhaps two well-known devils were fallen angels under 3.5 or previous versions of the game. Does anyone know which one(s)? Thanks. :)
HernetheHunter
12-04-07, 04:07 PM Forgotten Realms has one, I believe, called Malkizid.
baron_rando
12-04-07, 04:18 PM 3.5 the Erinyes is supposedly a fallen angel.
Thorsbjorn
12-04-07, 04:25 PM Forgotten Realms has one, I believe, called Malkizid.

Oh, I hadn't thought about looking on the Forgotten Realms. Is that in the Campaign Setting somewhere? Thanks. :)

3.5 the Erinyes is supposedly a fallen angel.

Ah, well that would explain why I can't find it looking under the archdevil entries. :D Thanks! :tiphat:
Space_Dragon
12-04-07, 06:13 PM Baalzvuv is a fallen angel. According to the FC2, Asmodeous, Mephistopheles, and Dispater are as well.
Thorsbjorn
12-04-07, 06:36 PM For some reason no matter what I do the Wizards thread won't allow me to quote Space_Dragon's post, and doesn't even show it when I'm in "Reply to Thread" mode. The most recent post it shows is my previous post. Isn't it great that Wizards is so adept at using the web that despite being the only website I use that closes down for daily maintenance it still can't maintain something as simply as its Quote function?

Anyway thank you Space_Dragon. I see on page 152, just after the statistics block, that Baalzebul is called The Fallen One. I don't see anything, however, under their entries about Asmodeus, Dispater, or Mephistopheles having fallen.
Thegans
12-04-07, 06:50 PM For some reason no matter what I do the Wizards thread won't allow me to quote Space_Dragon's post, and doesn't even show it when I'm in "Reply to Thread" mode. The most recent post it shows is my previous post. Isn't it great that Wizards is so adept at using the web that despite being the only website I use that closes down for daily maintenance it still can't maintain something as simply as its Quote function?

Anyway thank you Space_Dragon. I see on page 152, just after the statistics block, that Baalzebul is called The Fallen One. I don't see anything, however, under their entries about Asmodeus, Dispater, or Mephistopheles having fallen.

I don't have it with me right now but its near the begning the book it might be that myth. Basically Asmodeous, Dispater, and Mephistopheles were the first three archdevils along with the eyrines being the first normal devils.
Thorsbjorn
12-04-07, 07:01 PM I don't have it with me right now but its near the begning the book it might be that myth. Basically Asmodeous, Dispater, and Mephistopheles were the first three archdevils along with the eyrines being the first normal devils.

Thank you for the reference. They all appear under the preface on the Pact Primeval. I don't like the story of the Pact Primeval, as it makes the gods look pretty stupid, but then whole trend of late 3.5 has been anti-divine and pro-fiend. I don't mind, however, having four of the archdevils and the erinyes as fallen (or dark) angels.
Thegans
12-04-07, 07:17 PM Thank you for the reference. They all appear under the preface on the Pact Primeval. I don't like the story of the Pact Primeval, as it makes the gods look pretty stupid, but then whole trend of late 3.5 has been anti-divine and pro-fiend. I don't mind, however, having four of the archdevils and the erinyes as fallen (or dark) angels.

Actually assuming that some part of the 'myth' haven't changed the gods would have probably been ignorant of morality before Asmodeous played his trick because they never interacted with it before.
Thorsbjorn
12-04-07, 07:45 PM Actually assuming that some part of the 'myth' haven't changed the gods would have probably been ignorant of morality before Asmodeous played his trick because they never interacted with it before.

No matter how you spin it, in this version of the story Asmodeus snookers the gods completely. Of course this might just be his version of the story. :D
Thegans
12-04-07, 07:57 PM No matter how you spin it, in this version of the story Asmodeus snookers the gods completely. Of course this might just be his version of the story. :D

Asmodeous - "Leave out the part about the divine angry mob and the trial that I won by bribing the evil gods to not let the other ones use the lawyers."
Devil - "Yes sir Asmodeous."

Then again its not much different from the other older myths about him form before the Fiendish Codex's.
Thorsbjorn
12-04-07, 08:33 PM Asmodeous - "Leave out the part about the divine angry mob and the trial that I won by bribing the evil gods to not let the other ones use the lawyers."
Devil - "Yes sir Asmodeous."

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Then again its not much different from the other older myths about him form before the Fiendish Codex's.

I don't really recall previous versions' stories about him. He didn't appear at all in original D&D. He appeared in the AD&D (1st Ed) Monster Manual without too much backstory. The 2nd Ed Monstrous Manual didn't even include archdevils (or demon princes). I don't really recall where they showed up again in 2nd Ed--was it in Deities and Demigods?

Edit: I just remembered a story in Dragon from the early 1980s in which the author detailed how Asmodeus had come to power in Hell by leading the other 1st Ed archdevils in a coup against Satan. So the very earliest stories of Asmodeus differed radically from the FC 2 version.
Thegans
12-04-07, 08:50 PM :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I don't really recall previous versions' stories about him. He didn't appear at all in original D&D. He appeared in the AD&D (1st Ed) Monster Manual without too much backstory. The 2nd Ed Monstrous Manual didn't even include archdevils (or demon princes). I don't really recall where they showed up again in 2nd Ed--was it in Deities and Demigods?

Don't know I don't have 2nd edition but Manual of the Planes and a few other 3rd edition books seem to imply that he was some ancient primordial ultimate evil thats only the avatar of a more powerful being or just a highly advanced project image spell.
Space_Dragon
12-05-07, 12:39 AM Keep also in mind that the "gods" mentioned in FC2 probably weren't divine in the literal sense. While the versions of the Pact Primeval myth told by the races of today work their own gods (Moradin, St. Cuthbert, etc) into the story, in reality this would have taken place before those gods were born.

What I (and many others) believe is that Asmodeous was created by lawful good or lawful neutral cosmic entities, similar to himself. Archangels like Zaphkiel and Michael might have been among Asmodeous' former masters, or the modron overlord Primus. If you want to go by the Serpents of Law myth from earlier editions, you could say that the LG and LN serpents created their evil brother to help them defeat the forces of chaos (to simplify it, you could say that there was one Serpent who split into three to better fight chaos), but he then betrayed them.

Personally, I would go with either Primus (because I like Primus) or the Serpents of Law (so I can reconsile the Pact Premeval with Dicefreaks :) ). If you use the Serpents, simply replace the word "Asmodeous" with "Overlord" in the Pact Primeval fluff, and add the bit where he makes an avatar called Asmodeous after the fall.
HernetheHunter
12-05-07, 01:05 AM Malkizid appears in the FR supplement Champions of Ruin. Along with a broken outsider.
black dragon karameikos
12-05-07, 01:38 AM I don't really recall previous versions' stories about him. He didn't appear at all in original D&D. He appeared in the AD&D (1st Ed) Monster Manual without too much backstory. The 2nd Ed Monstrous Manual didn't even include archdevils (or demon princes). I don't really recall where they showed up again in 2nd Ed--was it in Deities and Demigods?

There was a AD&D 2nd Ed. book called "Guide to Hell" that Asmodeus is listed in. In the book it listed the leaders of the nine layers of Hell. It also listed Asmodeus as well, as well as giving stat's for each of the nine lords of hell. It was a good source book and was fun to read.

There was also a companion book to Guide to Hell as well, it was called Warriors of Heaven.
Thorsbjorn
12-05-07, 04:52 PM Keep also in mind that the "gods" mentioned in FC2 probably weren't divine in the literal sense. While the versions of the Pact Primeval myth told by the races of today work their own gods (Moradin, St. Cuthbert, etc) into the story, in reality this would have taken place before those gods were born.

What I (and many others) believe is that Asmodeous was created by lawful good or lawful neutral cosmic entities, similar to himself. Archangels like Zaphkiel and Michael might have been among Asmodeous' former masters, or the modron overlord Primus. If you want to go by the Serpents of Law myth from earlier editions, you could say that the LG and LN serpents created their evil brother to help them defeat the forces of chaos (to simplify it, you could say that there was one Serpent who split into three to better fight chaos), but he then betrayed them.

Personally, I would go with either Primus (because I like Primus) or the Serpents of Law (so I can reconsile the Pact Premeval with Dicefreaks :) ). If you use the Serpents, simply replace the word "Asmodeous" with "Overlord" in the Pact Primeval fluff, and add the bit where he makes an avatar called Asmodeous after the fall.

I started off my campaign world 29 years ago using the cosmology of Tolkein's Middle Earth: one supreme being that created everything, including two divine races, a greater and a lesser. In my world all of the so-called "gods" belonged to the lesser divine race. Later I kept the basic concept but made my own members of the great divine race. Two of the most powerful, a twin brother and sister, became evil, and warred on the others. During the millennia of war four of the others had two children who married. The married couple of the next generation tired of the war and left the world, founding another world in the void. The others eventually defeated the evil twins, but at great cost to the world, and ejected them from the world. The evil twins found the other realm and destroyed it. The others realized what was going to happen and followed them, but too late. In the brief absence (about 1500 years) of the other members of the more powerful divine race, members of the lesser divine races set themselves up as gods, mostly over the short-lived humans. That's how we ended up with all these human pantheons of gods.

When the greater divine race returned that didn't want to cause more damage to the world, so they mostly let the "gods" be.

As for Asmodeus, he's actually the son of one of the two consorts of the evil sister. When the greater divine race defeated her they leveled her fortress of Hell and sealed off the layers that had been tunneled into the fabric of the world, so that Asmodeus' father survived. Eventually thought Asmodeus plotted with her other consort, Druaga, and together they killed Asmodeus' father. Druaga though had been outside the fortress for much time and so he didn't have the internal connections that Asmodeus had developed, so Asmodeus was able to claim the rulership of Hell over Druaga but not destroy or even really defeat him. Thus in my campaign world Asmodeus actually has divine ranks, and this accounts for the inability of the other archdevils to really make any sort of dent in him.

Oh, I should mention that I especially don't like the role of Cuthbert in the Pact Primeval story. It simply ignores his history. He actually started out as a lawful good cleric and then rose first to sainthood, then demigod status, then lesser god status, and finally intermediate god status. As he got more powerful, however, he got more lawful and less good, so that his alignment slowly slipped from LG to LG (N) to LN. I actually played an astral deva character who had flocked to Cuthbert's banner when he first gained demigod status, only to break ranks with Cuthbert centuries later after Cuthbert's power corrupted him from good to neutral. Cuthbert stripped him of much of his power and exiled him to the campaign world where I ran the character, using Savage Species rules, from about 4th-8th levels.

Malkizid appears in the FR supplement Champions of Ruin. Along with a broken outsider.

During the early days of 3.0 I bought all the D&D books, but as Wizards started to follow the losing strategy of TSR's final days and saturate the market, I stopped buying every book and since I don't use FR I never bought Champions of Ruin. What's a broken outsider anyway?
HernetheHunter
12-05-07, 05:13 PM The Broken Outsider was a race called a Draegloth. They gave it the outsider type but the Hit Die of a Construct.

It was fixed in Drow of the Underdark though.
Thorsbjorn
12-05-07, 06:06 PM There was a AD&D 2nd Ed. book called "Guide to Hell" that Asmodeus is listed in. In the book it listed the leaders of the nine layers of Hell. It also listed Asmodeus as well, as well as giving stat's for each of the nine lords of hell. It was a good source book and was fun to read.

There was also a companion book to Guide to Hell as well, it was called Warriors of Heaven.

That must have been during the period when I'd given up buying new 2nd Ed books. Does the Guide to Hell give an origin for Asmodeus? Thanks. :)

Oh, Space_Dragon, I meant to say earlier that I've never really integrated the epic level celestials from Book of Exalted Deeds into my campaign. I have three powerful celestial beings called quasars (not to be confused with the quesar), one lawful good, one neutral good and one chaotic good, that oversee all the other celestials. They all appear in the war between the evil twins and the greater divine beings, as heralds of the greater divine beings. In fact the archons, guardinals and eladrin take their names from the last name of the corresponding quasars. I have nothing against the epic level celestials from Book of Exalted Deeds, and they could conceivably appear as high-level lieutenants of the quasars. I just haven't done anything with them in any way, even though I love Book of Exalted Deeds.

HernetheHunter, thanks for clearing up the mystery of the broken celestial.
Space_Dragon
12-05-07, 06:11 PM Um...if you're using your own homebrew cosmology, why do you even care if there are any fallen angels in core?
Thorsbjorn
12-05-07, 10:41 PM Um...if you're using your own homebrew cosmology, why do you even care if there are any fallen angels in core?

I like to incorporate as much of the official D&D cosmology as possible. In this case, if one of the archdevils is listed as a fallen angel, and I hadn't previously made it one of the original followers of the evil twins, I might make it having fallen later, perhaps seduced by Asmodeus himself.

By the way, I love Primus and the modrons. I was very disappointed to see them replaced by the inevitables, which do nothing for me at all. I have never used an inevitable nor do I have any plans to use one, although I'm not ruling out that I might at some point for some reason. They just don't do much for me. I loved the modrons, and was thrilled to see the 3.5 update in Dragon. I have to confess though that I never figured out a way to introduce them into a campaign. Have you?
Space_Dragon
12-06-07, 01:22 AM By the way, I love Primus and the modrons. I was very disappointed to see them replaced by the inevitables, which do nothing for me at all. I have never used an inevitable nor do I have any plans to use one, although I'm not ruling out that I might at some point for some reason. They just don't do much for me. I loved the modrons, and was thrilled to see the 3.5 update in Dragon. I have to confess though that I never figured out a way to introduce them into a campaign. Have you?

Yes. Very yes.

In my homebrew cosmology, modrons are the universe's maintenance squad. They are charged with policing the metaphysics of the universe and making sure that gravity and inertia always function as they were meant to. Their biggest job is fighting off the Far Realms, which threatens to corrupt their precious physical laws. The modrons are led by Primus, a being left behind by the Creator to look after the world.

The modrons built machines called Inevitables to use both as agents on the Prime Material, and as infantry against invaders from the Far Realms. Inevitables are made in factories, where they are built and programmed by modrons.

Formians are lawful evil vermin that infest the modron home plane. The modrons exterminate them whenever they grow too numerous.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thorsbjorn 12-04-07, 03:36 PM	I know that 4E is going to make all devils fallen angels, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that one or perhaps two well-known devils were fallen angels under 3.5 or previous versions of the game. Does anyone know which one(s)? Thanks. :)
HernetheHunter 12-04-07, 04:07 PM	Forgotten Realms has one, I believe, called Malkizid.
baron_rando 12-04-07, 04:18 PM	3.5 the Erinyes is supposedly a fallen angel.
Thorsbjorn 12-04-07, 04:25 PM	Forgotten Realms has one, I believe, called Malkizid. Oh, I hadn't thought about looking on the Forgotten Realms. Is that in the Campaign Setting somewhere? Thanks. :) 3.5 the Erinyes is supposedly a fallen angel. Ah, well that would explain why I can't find it looking under the archdevil entries. :D Thanks! :tiphat:
Space_Dragon 12-04-07, 06:13 PM	Baalzvuv is a fallen angel. According to the FC2, Asmodeous, Mephistopheles, and Dispater are as well.
Thorsbjorn 12-04-07, 06:36 PM	For some reason no matter what I do the Wizards thread won't allow me to quote Space_Dragon's post, and doesn't even show it when I'm in "Reply to Thread" mode. The most recent post it shows is my previous post. Isn't it great that Wizards is so adept at using the web that despite being the only website I use that closes down for daily maintenance it still can't maintain something as simply as its Quote function? Anyway thank you Space_Dragon. I see on page 152, just after the statistics block, that Baalzebul is called The Fallen One. I don't see anything, however, under their entries about Asmodeus, Dispater, or Mephistopheles having fallen.
Thegans 12-04-07, 06:50 PM	For some reason no matter what I do the Wizards thread won't allow me to quote Space_Dragon's post, and doesn't even show it when I'm in "Reply to Thread" mode. The most recent post it shows is my previous post. Isn't it great that Wizards is so adept at using the web that despite being the only website I use that closes down for daily maintenance it still can't maintain something as simply as its Quote function? Anyway thank you Space_Dragon. I see on page 152, just after the statistics block, that Baalzebul is called The Fallen One. I don't see anything, however, under their entries about Asmodeus, Dispater, or Mephistopheles having fallen. I don't have it with me right now but its near the begning the book it might be that myth. Basically Asmodeous, Dispater, and Mephistopheles were the first three archdevils along with the eyrines being the first normal devils.
Thorsbjorn 12-04-07, 07:01 PM	I don't have it with me right now but its near the begning the book it might be that myth. Basically Asmodeous, Dispater, and Mephistopheles were the first three archdevils along with the eyrines being the first normal devils. Thank you for the reference. They all appear under the preface on the Pact Primeval. I don't like the story of the Pact Primeval, as it makes the gods look pretty stupid, but then whole trend of late 3.5 has been anti-divine and pro-fiend. I don't mind, however, having four of the archdevils and the erinyes as fallen (or dark) angels.
Thegans 12-04-07, 07:17 PM	Thank you for the reference. They all appear under the preface on the Pact Primeval. I don't like the story of the Pact Primeval, as it makes the gods look pretty stupid, but then whole trend of late 3.5 has been anti-divine and pro-fiend. I don't mind, however, having four of the archdevils and the erinyes as fallen (or dark) angels. Actually assuming that some part of the 'myth' haven't changed the gods would have probably been ignorant of morality before Asmodeous played his trick because they never interacted with it before.
Thorsbjorn 12-04-07, 07:45 PM	Actually assuming that some part of the 'myth' haven't changed the gods would have probably been ignorant of morality before Asmodeous played his trick because they never interacted with it before. No matter how you spin it, in this version of the story Asmodeus snookers the gods completely. Of course this might just be his version of the story. :D
Thegans 12-04-07, 07:57 PM	No matter how you spin it, in this version of the story Asmodeus snookers the gods completely. Of course this might just be his version of the story. :D Asmodeous - "Leave out the part about the divine angry mob and the trial that I won by bribing the evil gods to not let the other ones use the lawyers." Devil - "Yes sir Asmodeous." Then again its not much different from the other older myths about him form before the Fiendish Codex's.
Thorsbjorn 12-04-07, 08:33 PM	Asmodeous - "Leave out the part about the divine angry mob and the trial that I won by bribing the evil gods to not let the other ones use the lawyers." Devil - "Yes sir Asmodeous." :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Then again its not much different from the other older myths about him form before the Fiendish Codex's. I don't really recall previous versions' stories about him. He didn't appear at all in original D&D. He appeared in the AD&D (1st Ed) Monster Manual without too much backstory. The 2nd Ed Monstrous Manual didn't even include archdevils (or demon princes). I don't really recall where they showed up again in 2nd Ed--was it in Deities and Demigods? Edit: I just remembered a story in Dragon from the early 1980s in which the author detailed how Asmodeus had come to power in Hell by leading the other 1st Ed archdevils in a coup against Satan. So the very earliest stories of Asmodeus differed radically from the FC 2 version.
Thegans 12-04-07, 08:50 PM	:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I don't really recall previous versions' stories about him. He didn't appear at all in original D&D. He appeared in the AD&D (1st Ed) Monster Manual without too much backstory. The 2nd Ed Monstrous Manual didn't even include archdevils (or demon princes). I don't really recall where they showed up again in 2nd Ed--was it in Deities and Demigods? Don't know I don't have 2nd edition but Manual of the Planes and a few other 3rd edition books seem to imply that he was some ancient primordial ultimate evil thats only the avatar of a more powerful being or just a highly advanced project image spell.
Space_Dragon 12-05-07, 12:39 AM	Keep also in mind that the "gods" mentioned in FC2 probably weren't divine in the literal sense. While the versions of the Pact Primeval myth told by the races of today work their own gods (Moradin, St. Cuthbert, etc) into the story, in reality this would have taken place before those gods were born. What I (and many others) believe is that Asmodeous was created by lawful good or lawful neutral cosmic entities, similar to himself. Archangels like Zaphkiel and Michael might have been among Asmodeous' former masters, or the modron overlord Primus. If you want to go by the Serpents of Law myth from earlier editions, you could say that the LG and LN serpents created their evil brother to help them defeat the forces of chaos (to simplify it, you could say that there was one Serpent who split into three to better fight chaos), but he then betrayed them. Personally, I would go with either Primus (because I like Primus) or the Serpents of Law (so I can reconsile the Pact Premeval with Dicefreaks :) ). If you use the Serpents, simply replace the word "Asmodeous" with "Overlord" in the Pact Primeval fluff, and add the bit where he makes an avatar called Asmodeous after the fall.
HernetheHunter 12-05-07, 01:05 AM	Malkizid appears in the FR supplement Champions of Ruin. Along with a broken outsider.
black dragon karameikos 12-05-07, 01:38 AM	I don't really recall previous versions' stories about him. He didn't appear at all in original D&D. He appeared in the AD&D (1st Ed) Monster Manual without too much backstory. The 2nd Ed Monstrous Manual didn't even include archdevils (or demon princes). I don't really recall where they showed up again in 2nd Ed--was it in Deities and Demigods? There was a AD&D 2nd Ed. book called "Guide to Hell" that Asmodeus is listed in. In the book it listed the leaders of the nine layers of Hell. It also listed Asmodeus as well, as well as giving stat's for each of the nine lords of hell. It was a good source book and was fun to read. There was also a companion book to Guide to Hell as well, it was called Warriors of Heaven.
Thorsbjorn 12-05-07, 04:52 PM	Keep also in mind that the "gods" mentioned in FC2 probably weren't divine in the literal sense. While the versions of the Pact Primeval myth told by the races of today work their own gods (Moradin, St. Cuthbert, etc) into the story, in reality this would have taken place before those gods were born. What I (and many others) believe is that Asmodeous was created by lawful good or lawful neutral cosmic entities, similar to himself. Archangels like Zaphkiel and Michael might have been among Asmodeous' former masters, or the modron overlord Primus. If you want to go by the Serpents of Law myth from earlier editions, you could say that the LG and LN serpents created their evil brother to help them defeat the forces of chaos (to simplify it, you could say that there was one Serpent who split into three to better fight chaos), but he then betrayed them. Personally, I would go with either Primus (because I like Primus) or the Serpents of Law (so I can reconsile the Pact Premeval with Dicefreaks :) ). If you use the Serpents, simply replace the word "Asmodeous" with "Overlord" in the Pact Primeval fluff, and add the bit where he makes an avatar called Asmodeous after the fall. I started off my campaign world 29 years ago using the cosmology of Tolkein's Middle Earth: one supreme being that created everything, including two divine races, a greater and a lesser. In my world all of the so-called "gods" belonged to the lesser divine race. Later I kept the basic concept but made my own members of the great divine race. Two of the most powerful, a twin brother and sister, became evil, and warred on the others. During the millennia of war four of the others had two children who married. The married couple of the next generation tired of the war and left the world, founding another world in the void. The others eventually defeated the evil twins, but at great cost to the world, and ejected them from the world. The evil twins found the other realm and destroyed it. The others realized what was going to happen and followed them, but too late. In the brief absence (about 1500 years) of the other members of the more powerful divine race, members of the lesser divine races set themselves up as gods, mostly over the short-lived humans. That's how we ended up with all these human pantheons of gods. When the greater divine race returned that didn't want to cause more damage to the world, so they mostly let the "gods" be. As for Asmodeus, he's actually the son of one of the two consorts of the evil sister. When the greater divine race defeated her they leveled her fortress of Hell and sealed off the layers that had been tunneled into the fabric of the world, so that Asmodeus' father survived. Eventually thought Asmodeus plotted with her other consort, Druaga, and together they killed Asmodeus' father. Druaga though had been outside the fortress for much time and so he didn't have the internal connections that Asmodeus had developed, so Asmodeus was able to claim the rulership of Hell over Druaga but not destroy or even really defeat him. Thus in my campaign world Asmodeus actually has divine ranks, and this accounts for the inability of the other archdevils to really make any sort of dent in him. Oh, I should mention that I especially don't like the role of Cuthbert in the Pact Primeval story. It simply ignores his history. He actually started out as a lawful good cleric and then rose first to sainthood, then demigod status, then lesser god status, and finally intermediate god status. As he got more powerful, however, he got more lawful and less good, so that his alignment slowly slipped from LG to LG (N) to LN. I actually played an astral deva character who had flocked to Cuthbert's banner when he first gained demigod status, only to break ranks with Cuthbert centuries later after Cuthbert's power corrupted him from good to neutral. Cuthbert stripped him of much of his power and exiled him to the campaign world where I ran the character, using Savage Species rules, from about 4th-8th levels. Malkizid appears in the FR supplement Champions of Ruin. Along with a broken outsider. During the early days of 3.0 I bought all the D&D books, but as Wizards started to follow the losing strategy of TSR's final days and saturate the market, I stopped buying every book and since I don't use FR I never bought Champions of Ruin. What's a broken outsider anyway?
HernetheHunter 12-05-07, 05:13 PM	The Broken Outsider was a race called a Draegloth. They gave it the outsider type but the Hit Die of a Construct. It was fixed in Drow of the Underdark though.
Thorsbjorn 12-05-07, 06:06 PM	There was a AD&D 2nd Ed. book called "Guide to Hell" that Asmodeus is listed in. In the book it listed the leaders of the nine layers of Hell. It also listed Asmodeus as well, as well as giving stat's for each of the nine lords of hell. It was a good source book and was fun to read. There was also a companion book to Guide to Hell as well, it was called Warriors of Heaven. That must have been during the period when I'd given up buying new 2nd Ed books. Does the Guide to Hell give an origin for Asmodeus? Thanks. :) Oh, Space_Dragon, I meant to say earlier that I've never really integrated the epic level celestials from Book of Exalted Deeds into my campaign. I have three powerful celestial beings called quasars (not to be confused with the quesar), one lawful good, one neutral good and one chaotic good, that oversee all the other celestials. They all appear in the war between the evil twins and the greater divine beings, as heralds of the greater divine beings. In fact the archons, guardinals and eladrin take their names from the last name of the corresponding quasars. I have nothing against the epic level celestials from Book of Exalted Deeds, and they could conceivably appear as high-level lieutenants of the quasars. I just haven't done anything with them in any way, even though I love Book of Exalted Deeds. HernetheHunter, thanks for clearing up the mystery of the broken celestial.
Space_Dragon 12-05-07, 06:11 PM	Um...if you're using your own homebrew cosmology, why do you even care if there are any fallen angels in core?
Thorsbjorn 12-05-07, 10:41 PM	Um...if you're using your own homebrew cosmology, why do you even care if there are any fallen angels in core? I like to incorporate as much of the official D&D cosmology as possible. In this case, if one of the archdevils is listed as a fallen angel, and I hadn't previously made it one of the original followers of the evil twins, I might make it having fallen later, perhaps seduced by Asmodeus himself. By the way, I love Primus and the modrons. I was very disappointed to see them replaced by the inevitables, which do nothing for me at all. I have never used an inevitable nor do I have any plans to use one, although I'm not ruling out that I might at some point for some reason. They just don't do much for me. I loved the modrons, and was thrilled to see the 3.5 update in Dragon. I have to confess though that I never figured out a way to introduce them into a campaign. Have you?
Space_Dragon 12-06-07, 01:22 AM	By the way, I love Primus and the modrons. I was very disappointed to see them replaced by the inevitables, which do nothing for me at all. I have never used an inevitable nor do I have any plans to use one, although I'm not ruling out that I might at some point for some reason. They just don't do much for me. I loved the modrons, and was thrilled to see the 3.5 update in Dragon. I have to confess though that I never figured out a way to introduce them into a campaign. Have you? Yes. Very yes. In my homebrew cosmology, modrons are the universe's maintenance squad. They are charged with policing the metaphysics of the universe and making sure that gravity and inertia always function as they were meant to. Their biggest job is fighting off the Far Realms, which threatens to corrupt their precious physical laws. The modrons are led by Primus, a being left behind by the Creator to look after the world. The modrons built machines called Inevitables to use both as agents on the Prime Material, and as infantry against invaders from the Far Realms. Inevitables are made in factories, where they are built and programmed by modrons. Formians are lawful evil vermin that infest the modron home plane. The modrons exterminate them whenever they grow too numerous.