Fallen Arch Angel [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fallen Arch Angel [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Forgehome
03-09-04, 06:36 PM Assuming (at least in my campain) that Solars are councilors to powerful deities or similiarly powered entities, what would an arch angel (read arch-solar) who was the confidant, right hand man and Commander of the gods armies be in terms of power?

For a millenium the Arch Angel was the most powerful of all the angels, fighting off the evil, that to him, seemed to spread more rapidly than it could be contained.

A thousand years past (only a blink to such creatures) the Angel became determined to remold the cosmoplogy to cast out all evil, destroying the very planes themselves where he felt they were spawned, and starting life anew. His dream is to create a cosmopology where there is no evil only good. To do this though he will need to destroy all the planes, (capturing the 'soul sparks' of the ancient dead gods that fuel the planes) including the heavens. He believes he has found the way to achieve his goal, but his radical views caused him to be first ostrasized, then scorned and then finally cast from the heavens themselves by the other angels and the god he served.

He is willing to ally himself with like minded creatures of all alignments to achieve his goals.

Besides simply 'advancing' a solar in terms of Hit Dice or giving it a few class levels with a evil 'tint' what suggestions could you make to reflect the power of such a angel? What powers would he adopt if his alignment changed? What abilities would he lose?

Please help with some ideas about this creature. Currently i am unsure what abilities to give him and whether to make him outright evil or something else?

P.S. I'm not looking for an philosophical argument in this thread just some help with his abilities, stats and possible future motivations/challenges. Thanks again.
Ob_Deamon
03-09-04, 09:25 PM Dicefreaks (http://www.dicefreaks.com), Celestial templates (http://www.dicefreaks.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=127) aught to help you here.
nick012000
03-09-04, 10:44 PM Look in the BoVD. One of the Lords of the Nine is a fallen celestial.
Shemeska the Marauder
03-10-04, 12:02 AM Originally posted by nick012000
Look in the BoVD. One of the Lords of the Nine is a fallen celestial.

several actually. Zariel the former Lord of Avernus (1st layer of Baator) was a former celestial. So was Belial, Lord of Phlegethos (4th layer), and Baalzebul the Lord of the 7th. As well, I want to say that either Mammon or Moloch was a fallen celestial, one of them though I don't recall off the top of my head which one.

A number of other Baatezu nobility are fallen celestials as well, all former Archons and Aasimon. I can't recall off the top of my head any fallen Guardinals or Eladrin. I can't much see the Tanar'ri embracing fallen Eladrin, or the Yugoloths doing much beyond torturing in perpetuity any fallen Guardinals.
Nighttfall
03-10-04, 02:40 AM Nah but then Loths enjoy torturing fallen good guys. Demons might embrace fallen Eladrin IF they were of great power and also willing to fight devils and the Seven Heavens.
Shemeska the Marauder
03-10-04, 03:24 AM Originally posted by Nighttfall
Nah but then Loths enjoy torturing fallen good guys. Demons might embrace fallen Eladrin IF they were of great power and also willing to fight devils and the Seven Heavens.

Very true on the first count, and for the second I can see that working in some cases as well.

So amend what I said on that before. Perhaps since the Tanar'ri really only care about chaos and evil rather than the source of that chaos and evil. If the fallen Eladrin could demonstrate power enough to gain respect they'd probably embrace them if they warred on the Baatezu.
Archangel
03-10-04, 04:36 AM I am here and I am going to destroy the whole world and then make a new one in my image!
Antedeus
03-12-04, 01:08 AM Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
As well, I want to say that either Mammon or Moloch was a fallen celestial, one of them though I don't recall off the top of my head which one.

I'd be inclined to say it's Moloch, since I THINK I remember reading something like that somewhere recently, and, more-concretely, Mammon's previous form was that of a large, nasty Pit Fiend. Perhaps, like Bel, he worked his way up to Lord of the Third from Pit Fiend?
Shemeska the Marauder
03-12-04, 03:09 AM Yeah you're right, it was Moloch
Antedeus
03-12-04, 05:14 PM Sweeeeet. ^_^

I, personally, am very charmed with the names of the fallen angels and the Nine...being a practicing Christian myself, and an avid (although somewhat amateur) scholar of the Bible and the Hebrew Scriptures, it really tickles my fancy that the D&D designers included such familiar names as Bel (Babylonian chief deity), Dis (another name for Hades/Pluto), Mammon (personification of greed), Belial (Hebrew fiend of lust and atheism), Baalzebul (Baal/Beelzebub/chief Canaanite deity), etc.

But I'm rambling. ^_^
TheArchfiend
03-13-04, 02:44 AM as far as im aware of baalzebul is the only fallen archon in the DnD mythos. i will say that i think it was mentioned somewhere that zariel was too, but baalzebul is the only one they go out of their way to say he was.

now bf anyone jumps, baalzebul, moloch, and belial were fallen angels in true canonized doctrines. zariel for the most part, is unnamed in canonical documents, although some equate him/her with zaphkiel and others as the perverse of the afor mentioned watcher. when designing monsters, Master Gary took names from mythology and did what he wanted, using the creatures history as a guideline for their goals and focuses... for the most part. asmodeus would be the "freelance prostitute" (didnt realize you couldnt use the sl..t word) of hell instead of its king if he kept everything. LOL.

i first had placed fallen "angels" among the courts of the various lords, then i looked @ baalzebul. when he fell, asmodeus transformed him into a member of the baatezu race with a dread ritual. THEN he ascended its heirachy. while 1ed says he was already there, 2ed and 3ed changed that, placing asmodeus there from the beginning, or so thats what they all remember. back to the point at hand, if baalzebul had to become a baatezu inorder to gain baatorain nobility, then that would serve as reason to say that in order to be a baatezu noble you have to be a baatezu. now i did manage in my campaign to allow the fallen celestials to have their own palaces in the various lower planes, but it was with the agreements of the lord of the layer. now these fallen could still visit the courts of the other lords, like the baatezu, making and breaking alliances, but they were more placid when concerned with the baatezu and thier wars. while other fiends seemed to relish in their power, the baatezu had their rules to follow. no nonbaatazu within the heirarchy. its keeps the politics of nobility within the "family." this was the baatezu and the lawful good fallen...

the chaotic and neutral evil fallen, thats another POV. the abyss itself may take up these creatures and grant them the powers weilded by the various demon lords, demon princes, yugoloth lords, etc. all my fallen are are using a fallen angel template (not the one used by Green Ronin, an older but similar one of my own design). point is to make them all (including making fallen celestials, dukes of hell, demon lords, demon princes, archdevils, slaad lords, oinoloth, etc.) more easily done, i used templates of my own design to incorperate both deific level power and to account for unique variations there of, tho none of my archfiends, save the ones with DV, are even close to the power of a true deity. they have SIMILAR powers, but not on the scale of a deity. in fact, they have similar immunities (ability damage, ability drain, etc. tho no extra energy immunities unless they hearld from a layer demanding it) but like a deity, are subseptable to these attacks if the attacker is of higher status (for demon lords it was "i.e, demon princes, archdevils, and deities"... but i suppose this is getting a bit off subject. LOL
Shemeska the Marauder
03-13-04, 12:21 PM No those 3 had been mentioned in Planescape material as being fallen celestials, though I don't recall off the top of my head if they were Aasimon or Archons when they fell.
TheArchfiend
03-13-04, 02:13 PM really?!?! scratches head and stares off into space. eh, you are the closest thing to a planescape authority we have here, so ill not trouble myself with looking it up and just believe you. LOL.

ahhh CRAP, this means i have to redo my infernal heirarchy!!
Forgehome
03-13-04, 06:09 PM So, in terms of ranking/power where would you place the Arch Angel I mentioned above next to the Lords of Hell and the Abyss? What about next to dieties?

As I mentioned earlier this Arch Angel was the right hand man(angel)/commander of all the armies of the heavens. He was exceedly more powerful than other solars and council/mediator to all the gods of the celestrial heavens. But in so saying this and after reading your earlier posts about infernals acceptance, perhaps he would have to remain isolated and unallied with other infernal powers.

What Loths would be of significant power to ally themselves with this fallen Angel?

What other powers (evil, neutral or good) could possible join with this angel, sharing his 'rebirth' vision?

Thanks for the banter.
Dipree Xarann
03-13-04, 06:45 PM Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder
No those 3 had been mentioned in Planescape material as being fallen celestials, though I don't recall off the top of my head if they were Aasimon or Archons when they fell.

I'm not sure about the other two, but I know from various AD&D sources that Baalzebul was a fallen archon (which type, that I don't know). His perfectionism & not knowing when to quit is part of what led to his fall from Mount Celestia.
Shemeska the Marauder
03-15-04, 12:09 AM Originally posted by Forgehome

As I mentioned earlier this Arch Angel was the right hand man(angel)/commander of all the armies of the heavens. He was exceedly more powerful than other solars and council/mediator to all the gods of the celestrial heavens. But in so saying this and after reading your earlier posts about infernals acceptance, perhaps he would have to remain isolated and unallied with other infernal powers.

What Loths would be of significant power to ally themselves with this fallen Angel?

If the Yugoloths wished to associate themselves with a fallen celestial (rather than imprison them and use or torture/experiment upon them) I'd suggest the following:

Any of the Baernaloths

The General of Gehenna

The Oinoloth (Mydianchlarus)

Anthraxus the Decayed (former Oinoloth in self imposed wandering/exile)

The 'Overlord of Carceri' (self titled) Bubonix, lord of the Tower of Incarnate Pain

less likely might be the Keeper of the Tower of the Arcanaloths (Helekanalaith), likely in concert with some of the other 'loths mentioned so far
Forgehome
03-15-04, 09:38 PM Thanks for your help Shemeska. I will have to find out more about the individuals you mentioned and then work from there. In any event i appreciate you assistance.:tiphat:
Aurotuli
03-16-04, 08:16 AM Considering the power of the being you suggested (trying, and potentially able, to one day destroy / recreate the cosmology) I would suggest Divine Rank 0. The archangel has no worshippers and thus has no actual divine rank, but this way it has plenty of power and is a significant force to deal with.
Antedeus
03-17-04, 03:20 AM Originally posted by Forgehome

As I mentioned earlier this Arch Angel was the right hand man(angel)/commander of all the armies of the heavens. He was exceedly more powerful than other solars and council/mediator to all the gods of the celestrial heavens. But in so saying this and after reading your earlier posts about infernals acceptance, perhaps he would have to remain isolated and unallied with other infernal powers.

Hmmmm...Shemeska, enlighten me, if you would be so kind: is Eblis a cannonical fallen archon? If so, this description seems to mirror his rather closely...

If not, then Dicefreaks has led me astray, and I curse their name, blah blah blah.:P
Shemeska the Marauder
03-17-04, 10:13 AM Originally posted by Antedeus
Hmmmm...Shemeska, enlighten me, if you would be so kind: is Eblis a cannonical fallen archon? If so, this description seems to mirror his rather closely...

If not, then Dicefreaks has led me astray, and I curse their name, blah blah blah.:P

Drat, I don't recall off the top of my head actually. I want to say that no, he's not, unless his name has radically changed since then. Off the top of my head the major fallen celestials are accounted for and that name isn't among them.

Find me wrong and point me to the reference and... I'll punch a lower ward shopkeeper in the nose on your behalf, just because. Well, I won't personally, but one of his 'customers' might accidentally slip and fall, and their closed fist might come into contact with that particular other arcanaloth's snout. *cackles*

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Forgehome 03-09-04, 06:36 PM	Assuming (at least in my campain) that Solars are councilors to powerful deities or similiarly powered entities, what would an arch angel (read arch-solar) who was the confidant, right hand man and Commander of the gods armies be in terms of power? For a millenium the Arch Angel was the most powerful of all the angels, fighting off the evil, that to him, seemed to spread more rapidly than it could be contained. A thousand years past (only a blink to such creatures) the Angel became determined to remold the cosmoplogy to cast out all evil, destroying the very planes themselves where he felt they were spawned, and starting life anew. His dream is to create a cosmopology where there is no evil only good. To do this though he will need to destroy all the planes, (capturing the 'soul sparks' of the ancient dead gods that fuel the planes) including the heavens. He believes he has found the way to achieve his goal, but his radical views caused him to be first ostrasized, then scorned and then finally cast from the heavens themselves by the other angels and the god he served. He is willing to ally himself with like minded creatures of all alignments to achieve his goals. Besides simply 'advancing' a solar in terms of Hit Dice or giving it a few class levels with a evil 'tint' what suggestions could you make to reflect the power of such a angel? What powers would he adopt if his alignment changed? What abilities would he lose? Please help with some ideas about this creature. Currently i am unsure what abilities to give him and whether to make him outright evil or something else? P.S. I'm not looking for an philosophical argument in this thread just some help with his abilities, stats and possible future motivations/challenges. Thanks again.
Ob_Deamon 03-09-04, 09:25 PM	Dicefreaks (http://www.dicefreaks.com), Celestial templates (http://www.dicefreaks.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=127) aught to help you here.
nick012000 03-09-04, 10:44 PM	Look in the BoVD. One of the Lords of the Nine is a fallen celestial.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-10-04, 12:02 AM	Originally posted by nick012000 Look in the BoVD. One of the Lords of the Nine is a fallen celestial. several actually. Zariel the former Lord of Avernus (1st layer of Baator) was a former celestial. So was Belial, Lord of Phlegethos (4th layer), and Baalzebul the Lord of the 7th. As well, I want to say that either Mammon or Moloch was a fallen celestial, one of them though I don't recall off the top of my head which one. A number of other Baatezu nobility are fallen celestials as well, all former Archons and Aasimon. I can't recall off the top of my head any fallen Guardinals or Eladrin. I can't much see the Tanar'ri embracing fallen Eladrin, or the Yugoloths doing much beyond torturing in perpetuity any fallen Guardinals.
Nighttfall 03-10-04, 02:40 AM	Nah but then Loths enjoy torturing fallen good guys. Demons might embrace fallen Eladrin IF they were of great power and also willing to fight devils and the Seven Heavens.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-10-04, 03:24 AM	Originally posted by Nighttfall Nah but then Loths enjoy torturing fallen good guys. Demons might embrace fallen Eladrin IF they were of great power and also willing to fight devils and the Seven Heavens. Very true on the first count, and for the second I can see that working in some cases as well. So amend what I said on that before. Perhaps since the Tanar'ri really only care about chaos and evil rather than the source of that chaos and evil. If the fallen Eladrin could demonstrate power enough to gain respect they'd probably embrace them if they warred on the Baatezu.
Archangel 03-10-04, 04:36 AM	I am here and I am going to destroy the whole world and then make a new one in my image!
Antedeus 03-12-04, 01:08 AM	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder As well, I want to say that either Mammon or Moloch was a fallen celestial, one of them though I don't recall off the top of my head which one. I'd be inclined to say it's Moloch, since I THINK I remember reading something like that somewhere recently, and, more-concretely, Mammon's previous form was that of a large, nasty Pit Fiend. Perhaps, like Bel, he worked his way up to Lord of the Third from Pit Fiend?
Shemeska the Marauder 03-12-04, 03:09 AM	Yeah you're right, it was Moloch
Antedeus 03-12-04, 05:14 PM	Sweeeeet. ^_^ I, personally, am very charmed with the names of the fallen angels and the Nine...being a practicing Christian myself, and an avid (although somewhat amateur) scholar of the Bible and the Hebrew Scriptures, it really tickles my fancy that the D&D designers included such familiar names as Bel (Babylonian chief deity), Dis (another name for Hades/Pluto), Mammon (personification of greed), Belial (Hebrew fiend of lust and atheism), Baalzebul (Baal/Beelzebub/chief Canaanite deity), etc. But I'm rambling. ^_^
TheArchfiend 03-13-04, 02:44 AM	as far as im aware of baalzebul is the only fallen archon in the DnD mythos. i will say that i think it was mentioned somewhere that zariel was too, but baalzebul is the only one they go out of their way to say he was. now bf anyone jumps, baalzebul, moloch, and belial were fallen angels in true canonized doctrines. zariel for the most part, is unnamed in canonical documents, although some equate him/her with zaphkiel and others as the perverse of the afor mentioned watcher. when designing monsters, Master Gary took names from mythology and did what he wanted, using the creatures history as a guideline for their goals and focuses... for the most part. asmodeus would be the "freelance prostitute" (didnt realize you couldnt use the sl..t word) of hell instead of its king if he kept everything. LOL. i first had placed fallen "angels" among the courts of the various lords, then i looked @ baalzebul. when he fell, asmodeus transformed him into a member of the baatezu race with a dread ritual. THEN he ascended its heirachy. while 1ed says he was already there, 2ed and 3ed changed that, placing asmodeus there from the beginning, or so thats what they all remember. back to the point at hand, if baalzebul had to become a baatezu inorder to gain baatorain nobility, then that would serve as reason to say that in order to be a baatezu noble you have to be a baatezu. now i did manage in my campaign to allow the fallen celestials to have their own palaces in the various lower planes, but it was with the agreements of the lord of the layer. now these fallen could still visit the courts of the other lords, like the baatezu, making and breaking alliances, but they were more placid when concerned with the baatezu and thier wars. while other fiends seemed to relish in their power, the baatezu had their rules to follow. no nonbaatazu within the heirarchy. its keeps the politics of nobility within the "family." this was the baatezu and the lawful good fallen... the chaotic and neutral evil fallen, thats another POV. the abyss itself may take up these creatures and grant them the powers weilded by the various demon lords, demon princes, yugoloth lords, etc. all my fallen are are using a fallen angel template (not the one used by Green Ronin, an older but similar one of my own design). point is to make them all (including making fallen celestials, dukes of hell, demon lords, demon princes, archdevils, slaad lords, oinoloth, etc.) more easily done, i used templates of my own design to incorperate both deific level power and to account for unique variations there of, tho none of my archfiends, save the ones with DV, are even close to the power of a true deity. they have SIMILAR powers, but not on the scale of a deity. in fact, they have similar immunities (ability damage, ability drain, etc. tho no extra energy immunities unless they hearld from a layer demanding it) but like a deity, are subseptable to these attacks if the attacker is of higher status (for demon lords it was "i.e, demon princes, archdevils, and deities"... but i suppose this is getting a bit off subject. LOL
Shemeska the Marauder 03-13-04, 12:21 PM	No those 3 had been mentioned in Planescape material as being fallen celestials, though I don't recall off the top of my head if they were Aasimon or Archons when they fell.
TheArchfiend 03-13-04, 02:13 PM	really?!?! scratches head and stares off into space. eh, you are the closest thing to a planescape authority we have here, so ill not trouble myself with looking it up and just believe you. LOL. ahhh CRAP, this means i have to redo my infernal heirarchy!!
Forgehome 03-13-04, 06:09 PM	So, in terms of ranking/power where would you place the Arch Angel I mentioned above next to the Lords of Hell and the Abyss? What about next to dieties? As I mentioned earlier this Arch Angel was the right hand man(angel)/commander of all the armies of the heavens. He was exceedly more powerful than other solars and council/mediator to all the gods of the celestrial heavens. But in so saying this and after reading your earlier posts about infernals acceptance, perhaps he would have to remain isolated and unallied with other infernal powers. What Loths would be of significant power to ally themselves with this fallen Angel? What other powers (evil, neutral or good) could possible join with this angel, sharing his 'rebirth' vision? Thanks for the banter.
Dipree Xarann 03-13-04, 06:45 PM	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder No those 3 had been mentioned in Planescape material as being fallen celestials, though I don't recall off the top of my head if they were Aasimon or Archons when they fell. I'm not sure about the other two, but I know from various AD&D sources that Baalzebul was a fallen archon (which type, that I don't know). His perfectionism & not knowing when to quit is part of what led to his fall from Mount Celestia.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-15-04, 12:09 AM	Originally posted by Forgehome As I mentioned earlier this Arch Angel was the right hand man(angel)/commander of all the armies of the heavens. He was exceedly more powerful than other solars and council/mediator to all the gods of the celestrial heavens. But in so saying this and after reading your earlier posts about infernals acceptance, perhaps he would have to remain isolated and unallied with other infernal powers. What Loths would be of significant power to ally themselves with this fallen Angel? If the Yugoloths wished to associate themselves with a fallen celestial (rather than imprison them and use or torture/experiment upon them) I'd suggest the following: Any of the Baernaloths The General of Gehenna The Oinoloth (Mydianchlarus) Anthraxus the Decayed (former Oinoloth in self imposed wandering/exile) The 'Overlord of Carceri' (self titled) Bubonix, lord of the Tower of Incarnate Pain less likely might be the Keeper of the Tower of the Arcanaloths (Helekanalaith), likely in concert with some of the other 'loths mentioned so far
Forgehome 03-15-04, 09:38 PM	Thanks for your help Shemeska. I will have to find out more about the individuals you mentioned and then work from there. In any event i appreciate you assistance.:tiphat:
Aurotuli 03-16-04, 08:16 AM	Considering the power of the being you suggested (trying, and potentially able, to one day destroy / recreate the cosmology) I would suggest Divine Rank 0. The archangel has no worshippers and thus has no actual divine rank, but this way it has plenty of power and is a significant force to deal with.
Antedeus 03-17-04, 03:20 AM	Originally posted by Forgehome As I mentioned earlier this Arch Angel was the right hand man(angel)/commander of all the armies of the heavens. He was exceedly more powerful than other solars and council/mediator to all the gods of the celestrial heavens. But in so saying this and after reading your earlier posts about infernals acceptance, perhaps he would have to remain isolated and unallied with other infernal powers. Hmmmm...Shemeska, enlighten me, if you would be so kind: is Eblis a cannonical fallen archon? If so, this description seems to mirror his rather closely... If not, then Dicefreaks has led me astray, and I curse their name, blah blah blah.:P
Shemeska the Marauder 03-17-04, 10:13 AM	Originally posted by Antedeus Hmmmm...Shemeska, enlighten me, if you would be so kind: is Eblis a cannonical fallen archon? If so, this description seems to mirror his rather closely... If not, then Dicefreaks has led me astray, and I curse their name, blah blah blah.:P Drat, I don't recall off the top of my head actually. I want to say that no, he's not, unless his name has radically changed since then. Off the top of my head the major fallen celestials are accounted for and that name isn't among them. Find me wrong and point me to the reference and... I'll punch a lower ward shopkeeper in the nose on your behalf, just because. Well, I won't personally, but one of his 'customers' might accidentally slip and fall, and their closed fist might come into contact with that particular other arcanaloth's snout. cackles