Fallen Celestial and subtypes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fallen Celestial and subtypes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tyrant of the Moonsea
03-06-05, 07:58 PM I was wondering if a fallen celestial, for exemple a hound archon or planetar who shifted his allegiance to an evil power who still maintain his good subtype or change it to evil. I know that his alignment would be changed but does his subtype, his good essence would also be changed?

Another thing on the same subject, does a good half-fiend (yeah its rare I know) keeps the evil subtype in her description. If so, spell affecting evil outsider would affect her even though she's not evil. Same for evil outsider bane weapons...
The Vorpal Tribble
03-06-05, 08:06 PM Heh, I had a looong heated argument about just this, because one player in a higher-leveled game wanted to be a Chaotic Good Succubus.

Basically, you should keep the subtype, but are now good aligned, so evil and good spells both affect you the same, and you are also harmed by evil and good weapons, and blocked by circles of good and evil.

So really, its not much fun to be a converted creature ;)

---

Thing is, my argument is that it is stupid to even have good aligned demons, or fallen angels (in D&D-based universes anyways). They are literally congealed evil. They are fabrications of pure moral stance. Evil should not be able to become good, nor good evil. It'd be like you turning into pure anti-matter, all your atoms abruptly changing their charge.

Hey, y'know, that'd make a really cool epic spell or psionic ability...
Tyrant of the Moonsea
03-06-05, 08:51 PM Your probably right, the soul of an outsider is composed of pure good or evil so its normally impossible to change the essence of the soul. Its even noted in the Book of Exalted Deeds that the spell that convert an evil being to the "light side" doesnt work on evil outsiders.

But what about the half-fiend? Normally he gains the evil subtype but its also noted that not every half-fiend become evil, some being "tempted" to go against their parents...Does he gains the subtype? I would normally say yes since the sould is half evil. Would he be affected by evil outsider bane weapons or spells?
Greyman
03-06-05, 09:34 PM Heh, I had a looong heated argument about just this, because one player in a higher-leveled game wanted to be a Chaotic Good Succubus.

Basically, you should keep the subtype, but are now good aligned, so evil and good spells both affect you the same, and you are also harmed by evil and good weapons, and blocked by circles of good and evil.That's not entirely true, IMO. When determining aura strength by hit die, a chaotic good succubus (6 HD) should register an overwhelming aura as an Evil Outsider on detect evil, and an overwhelming aura a Chaotic Outsider for detect chaos, but only a faint aura as a Good Creature for detect good.Aura Power: An aligned aura’s power depends on the type of aligned creature or object that you’re detecting and its HD, caster level, or (in the case of a cleric) class level; see the accompanying table. If an aura falls into more than one strength category, the spell indicates the stronger of the two. ———————— Aura Power ————————
Creature/Object Faint Mod. Strong Overwhelming
Aligned creature (HD) 10 or lower 11–25 26–50 51 or higher
Aligned outsider (HD) 1 or lower 2–4 5–10 11 or higher
Greyman
03-06-05, 09:43 PM But what about the half-fiend? Normally he gains the evil subtype but its also noted that not every half-fiend become evil, some being "tempted" to go against their parents...Does he gains the subtype? I would normally say yes since the sould is half evil. Would he be affected by evil outsider bane weapons or spells?Half-Fiends do not gain the evil subtype. Applying the template changes the creature's type to Outsider, and they gain the Native subtype. That is all there is to it, there isn't any more.

Okay. The alignment changes to "Always Evil (Any)", but that only indicates how broadly alignment applies to half-fiends as a whole, and places no restriction on an individual basis. Always Evil does not exclude the possibility of exceptions to the general population.
GrandMarquis
03-07-05, 03:03 AM I'm far from an expert, so feel free to ignore my opinion, but I'll bring up the Erinyes devil. Now, "rumors" say that the Erinyes are fallen celestials, and they look the part. I don't have the MM with me, but I'm almost certain that Erinyes don't have the Good descriptor. So if you base your decision on this, and in your campaign, Erinyes are indeed fallen angels, then they should probably lose their original alignment descriptor if they change alignment, but maybe it takes a certain amount of time or evil deeds (or good, lawful/chaotic depending on the outsider and alignment). If they're just like any other devil, and just happen to resemble angels, then this post doesn't really help I guess.

Both ways make sense, it's probably a campaign/DM-based decision.
Jefepato
03-07-05, 03:44 AM There may be "rumors," but in RAW, erinyes are not really fallen celestials. They're a lot prettier than most devils, but they're still just another rank in the baatezu hierarchy.
catharz
03-07-05, 03:47 AM Its even noted in the Book of Exalted Deeds that the spell that convert an evil being to the "light side" doesnt work on evil outsiders.

Actually, it does convert evil outsiders, and they use a converted Barbazu (?) as a specific example.

Anyway, technically speaking TVT is right. However, it might be important to realize that Half-fiends (or -celestials) do not gain an alignment subtype.
The Vorpal Tribble
03-07-05, 06:47 AM Ungh... thats kind of what gets on my nerves though. WOTC is getting pretty bad about 'This is how things must be... well, except in this case... and maybe this one... wellll, and if you do this then possibly...'

Convert the very embodiment of evil into good, positive-energy undead, sentient oozes, thinking constructs... everything has a contradiction, something that completely breaks the former standards. Now every munchkin can point to this or that and say, 'Well THIS creature here, or THAT spell there says that my bizarre, completely messed-up idea can be used.'

I guess I can just turn it back on them and have a black dragon who has converted to good and went to a monestary to get training as a monk and took the vow of poverty and so got rid of all his treasure months ago so when the players come to hunt it down or some such I'll have to tell them at the end 'Sorry, after defeating the dragon you find only a simple bowl with porridge in it'.

:yuck: :bored: :pbbbtt: :nonono: :blink: :twitch: :crazy: :looloo: :doh:
Tyrant of the Moonsea
03-07-05, 11:45 AM I would agree on you about this "we can bypass the rules since we're the designers" but on the other hand a powerful god or celestial like those in the Book of Exalted Deeds could theorically covert evil beings with the use of powerful divine or celestial magic. An exemple of this can be found in the FR page where the God Set has corrupted an hound archon into serving him (his template changes his alignment descriptor).

Normally, fiends are seen as corruptors and deceivers while celestial try hard to convince bad people to change their mindsets so I dont see why they could not try on their ennemies. For sure, it would be more difficult but imagine the satisfaction of a fiend when he succeeds in converting a planetar to his cause...Even more fun than a small puny human! And a far better weapon against his ennemies in the Blood war. It fits the concept (thats my opinion) :)
TheArchfiend
03-07-05, 12:13 PM Thing is, my argument is that it is stupid to even have good aligned demons, or fallen angels (in D&D-based universes anyways). They are literally congealed evil. They are fabrications of pure moral stance. Evil should not be able to become good, nor good evil. It'd be like you turning into pure anti-matter, all your atoms abruptly changing their charge.

i think where everyone gets the notion is from the judeo-christian mythos... but as far as DnD... there are fallen celestials. Baalzebul, lord of the 7th is a fallen celestial, given his original form by Asmodeus and after a series of tests, promoted to a full memeber of the Baatezu race in a dread ritual. Belial is also rumored to be another fallen celestial, though i have not found any information that concretely says that he is, unlike the afor mentioned Baalzebul.
Ogre4Hire
03-07-05, 01:58 PM One thing I've always hated has been the people who look at the fallen celestials and say "Yeah, that's fine," then see a risen fiend and suddenly blow their top about how they shouldn't do that, it's wrong, bla bla bla.

Fallen celestials, and mentioned above, are directly supported in D&D, and always have been. Equally as old, but recieving far less attention, are the few fiends who have turned their backs on evil. This happened in 2E (the Planescape accessory Faces of Evil: The Fiends mentions it), and it happens in 3E as well.
Vatras
03-07-05, 02:31 PM I am oldfashioned, and a fallen celestial changes alignment and type with me, becoming effectively a fiend. I dont think someone thoroughly evil can have the good subtype and vice versa...thats somehow contradictory.
jgbrowning
03-07-05, 03:55 PM No change in subtype for evil [good] creatures and good [evil] creatures.

If I'm remembering properly that reason is that outsiders are composed of the same matter that the plane is composed of and do not have a separate soul, as do creatures in the material plane. Hence, no matter how good you become, if you're formed from evil, you're still subject to effects that effect evil.

From the SRD:

Good Subtype: A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the good-aligned Outer Planes. Most creatures that have this subtype also have good alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a good alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the good subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were good-aligned (see Damage Reduction, above).

Evil Subtype: A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were evil-aligned (see Damage Reduction, above).

joe b.
Masker
03-07-05, 05:51 PM If you want more information, try in DiceFreaks. The got a suplement called the Gates of Hell who has detailed information on the devils and a Fallen Angel template.

In fact, both Beelzebul (under the name of Triel) and Belial are fallen angel.

My 2 cents
Gurthoron
03-08-05, 02:02 PM I'm currently playing a fallen Solar character who was Mind Raped to evil through repeated uses of that spell. (Damn CE Faerie Dragons) I based my changes off the sanctified creature template in the Exalted Deeds, except going to evil. I lost my spell casting and spell like abilites, but retained everything else. Those abilities just went from being against evil or weak against evil to being weak against good. While my form is an epitomie of good, in DnD a characters actions determine the aligment. Therefore, with my newfound evilness I have become an evil Outsider. I see the subtype as a flexible thing, able to change when the person changes.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tyrant of the Moonsea 03-06-05, 07:58 PM	I was wondering if a fallen celestial, for exemple a hound archon or planetar who shifted his allegiance to an evil power who still maintain his good subtype or change it to evil. I know that his alignment would be changed but does his subtype, his good essence would also be changed? Another thing on the same subject, does a good half-fiend (yeah its rare I know) keeps the evil subtype in her description. If so, spell affecting evil outsider would affect her even though she's not evil. Same for evil outsider bane weapons...
The Vorpal Tribble 03-06-05, 08:06 PM	Heh, I had a looong heated argument about just this, because one player in a higher-leveled game wanted to be a Chaotic Good Succubus. Basically, you should keep the subtype, but are now good aligned, so evil and good spells both affect you the same, and you are also harmed by evil and good weapons, and blocked by circles of good and evil. So really, its not much fun to be a converted creature ;) --- Thing is, my argument is that it is stupid to even have good aligned demons, or fallen angels (in D&D-based universes anyways). They are literally congealed evil. They are fabrications of pure moral stance. Evil should not be able to become good, nor good evil. It'd be like you turning into pure anti-matter, all your atoms abruptly changing their charge. Hey, y'know, that'd make a really cool epic spell or psionic ability...
Tyrant of the Moonsea 03-06-05, 08:51 PM	Your probably right, the soul of an outsider is composed of pure good or evil so its normally impossible to change the essence of the soul. Its even noted in the Book of Exalted Deeds that the spell that convert an evil being to the "light side" doesnt work on evil outsiders. But what about the half-fiend? Normally he gains the evil subtype but its also noted that not every half-fiend become evil, some being "tempted" to go against their parents...Does he gains the subtype? I would normally say yes since the sould is half evil. Would he be affected by evil outsider bane weapons or spells?
Greyman 03-06-05, 09:34 PM	Heh, I had a looong heated argument about just this, because one player in a higher-leveled game wanted to be a Chaotic Good Succubus. Basically, you should keep the subtype, but are now good aligned, so evil and good spells both affect you the same, and you are also harmed by evil and good weapons, and blocked by circles of good and evil.That's not entirely true, IMO. When determining aura strength by hit die, a chaotic good succubus (6 HD) should register an overwhelming aura as an Evil Outsider on detect evil, and an overwhelming aura a Chaotic Outsider for detect chaos, but only a faint aura as a Good Creature for detect good.Aura Power: An aligned aura’s power depends on the type of aligned creature or object that you’re detecting and its HD, caster level, or (in the case of a cleric) class level; see the accompanying table. If an aura falls into more than one strength category, the spell indicates the stronger of the two. ———————— Aura Power ———————— Creature/Object Faint Mod. Strong Overwhelming Aligned creature (HD) 10 or lower 11–25 26–50 51 or higher Aligned outsider (HD) 1 or lower 2–4 5–10 11 or higher
Greyman 03-06-05, 09:43 PM	But what about the half-fiend? Normally he gains the evil subtype but its also noted that not every half-fiend become evil, some being "tempted" to go against their parents...Does he gains the subtype? I would normally say yes since the sould is half evil. Would he be affected by evil outsider bane weapons or spells?Half-Fiends do not gain the evil subtype. Applying the template changes the creature's type to Outsider, and they gain the Native subtype. That is all there is to it, there isn't any more. Okay. The alignment changes to "Always Evil (Any)", but that only indicates how broadly alignment applies to half-fiends as a whole, and places no restriction on an individual basis. Always Evil does not exclude the possibility of exceptions to the general population.
GrandMarquis 03-07-05, 03:03 AM	I'm far from an expert, so feel free to ignore my opinion, but I'll bring up the Erinyes devil. Now, "rumors" say that the Erinyes are fallen celestials, and they look the part. I don't have the MM with me, but I'm almost certain that Erinyes don't have the Good descriptor. So if you base your decision on this, and in your campaign, Erinyes are indeed fallen angels, then they should probably lose their original alignment descriptor if they change alignment, but maybe it takes a certain amount of time or evil deeds (or good, lawful/chaotic depending on the outsider and alignment). If they're just like any other devil, and just happen to resemble angels, then this post doesn't really help I guess. Both ways make sense, it's probably a campaign/DM-based decision.
Jefepato 03-07-05, 03:44 AM	There may be "rumors," but in RAW, erinyes are not really fallen celestials. They're a lot prettier than most devils, but they're still just another rank in the baatezu hierarchy.
catharz 03-07-05, 03:47 AM	Its even noted in the Book of Exalted Deeds that the spell that convert an evil being to the "light side" doesnt work on evil outsiders. Actually, it does convert evil outsiders, and they use a converted Barbazu (?) as a specific example. Anyway, technically speaking TVT is right. However, it might be important to realize that Half-fiends (or -celestials) do not gain an alignment subtype.
The Vorpal Tribble 03-07-05, 06:47 AM	Ungh... thats kind of what gets on my nerves though. WOTC is getting pretty bad about 'This is how things must be... well, except in this case... and maybe this one... wellll, and if you do this then possibly...' Convert the very embodiment of evil into good, positive-energy undead, sentient oozes, thinking constructs... everything has a contradiction, something that completely breaks the former standards. Now every munchkin can point to this or that and say, 'Well THIS creature here, or THAT spell there says that my bizarre, completely messed-up idea can be used.' I guess I can just turn it back on them and have a black dragon who has converted to good and went to a monestary to get training as a monk and took the vow of poverty and so got rid of all his treasure months ago so when the players come to hunt it down or some such I'll have to tell them at the end 'Sorry, after defeating the dragon you find only a simple bowl with porridge in it'. :yuck: :bored: :pbbbtt: :nonono: :blink: :twitch: :crazy: :looloo: :doh:
Tyrant of the Moonsea 03-07-05, 11:45 AM	I would agree on you about this "we can bypass the rules since we're the designers" but on the other hand a powerful god or celestial like those in the Book of Exalted Deeds could theorically covert evil beings with the use of powerful divine or celestial magic. An exemple of this can be found in the FR page where the God Set has corrupted an hound archon into serving him (his template changes his alignment descriptor). Normally, fiends are seen as corruptors and deceivers while celestial try hard to convince bad people to change their mindsets so I dont see why they could not try on their ennemies. For sure, it would be more difficult but imagine the satisfaction of a fiend when he succeeds in converting a planetar to his cause...Even more fun than a small puny human! And a far better weapon against his ennemies in the Blood war. It fits the concept (thats my opinion) :)
TheArchfiend 03-07-05, 12:13 PM	Thing is, my argument is that it is stupid to even have good aligned demons, or fallen angels (in D&D-based universes anyways). They are literally congealed evil. They are fabrications of pure moral stance. Evil should not be able to become good, nor good evil. It'd be like you turning into pure anti-matter, all your atoms abruptly changing their charge. i think where everyone gets the notion is from the judeo-christian mythos... but as far as DnD... there are fallen celestials. Baalzebul, lord of the 7th is a fallen celestial, given his original form by Asmodeus and after a series of tests, promoted to a full memeber of the Baatezu race in a dread ritual. Belial is also rumored to be another fallen celestial, though i have not found any information that concretely says that he is, unlike the afor mentioned Baalzebul.
Ogre4Hire 03-07-05, 01:58 PM	One thing I've always hated has been the people who look at the fallen celestials and say "Yeah, that's fine," then see a risen fiend and suddenly blow their top about how they shouldn't do that, it's wrong, bla bla bla. Fallen celestials, and mentioned above, are directly supported in D&D, and always have been. Equally as old, but recieving far less attention, are the few fiends who have turned their backs on evil. This happened in 2E (the Planescape accessory Faces of Evil: The Fiends mentions it), and it happens in 3E as well.
Vatras 03-07-05, 02:31 PM	I am oldfashioned, and a fallen celestial changes alignment and type with me, becoming effectively a fiend. I dont think someone thoroughly evil can have the good subtype and vice versa...thats somehow contradictory.
jgbrowning 03-07-05, 03:55 PM	No change in subtype for evil [good] creatures and good [evil] creatures. If I'm remembering properly that reason is that outsiders are composed of the same matter that the plane is composed of and do not have a separate soul, as do creatures in the material plane. Hence, no matter how good you become, if you're formed from evil, you're still subject to effects that effect evil. From the SRD: Good Subtype: A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the good-aligned Outer Planes. Most creatures that have this subtype also have good alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a good alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the good subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were good-aligned (see Damage Reduction, above). Evil Subtype: A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were evil-aligned (see Damage Reduction, above). joe b.
Masker 03-07-05, 05:51 PM	If you want more information, try in DiceFreaks. The got a suplement called the Gates of Hell who has detailed information on the devils and a Fallen Angel template. In fact, both Beelzebul (under the name of Triel) and Belial are fallen angel. My 2 cents
Gurthoron 03-08-05, 02:02 PM	I'm currently playing a fallen Solar character who was Mind Raped to evil through repeated uses of that spell. (Damn CE Faerie Dragons) I based my changes off the sanctified creature template in the Exalted Deeds, except going to evil. I lost my spell casting and spell like abilites, but retained everything else. Those abilities just went from being against evil or weak against evil to being weak against good. While my form is an epitomie of good, in DnD a characters actions determine the aligment. Therefore, with my newfound evilness I have become an evil Outsider. I see the subtype as a flexible thing, able to change when the person changes.