FCII: Is the Legion Devil too good? [Archive] - Wizards Community

FCII: Is the Legion Devil too good? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Keenath
05-28-07, 07:29 PM I've been reading the Fiendish Compendium II, and I'm really uncertain about the Legion Devils.

For those who don't have the book, they're a 3-HD, CR 3 devil, who have a set of special abilities that give major benefits when they fight in a unit with other legion devils.

First, they share their HP; all the legion devils in a unit (defined as being within 100 feet) pool their HP; any injury is deducted from the pool, and healing to any individual is added to that pool -- they all live or die together.

Second, they have evasion, plus a special ability that, when any spell or effect hits more than one legion devil, they all roll saves, and then they all use the best of the lot. In other words, area effects are unlikely to work, because the more you can catch in the area (and they tend to form closely-packed clusters), the more likely that one will save successfully, which means they ALL save successfully. And with evasion, reflex-half evocations are virtually useless unless your DC is so high that they only save on a 20.

Third, if you target a single legion devil with a mind effect, the whole legion saves against it, and they share the result -- success or fail. That would make "will partial" effects useful, if only for the partial, but these guys are also immune to fear, which removes most of the interesting effects.

Now, the effect I'm most confused by is this: Legion's Battle Skill gives each legion devil "a +4 bonus on attack rolls for every other legion devil within 60 feet."

WHAT?!

I mean, a half-dozen of these geeks would have an attack bonus of +28, with an encounter level of 8. That's a ridiculous value -- at 8th level, a dedicated melee fighter would only be able to come up with, maybe, +18. They don't have power attack by default, but I don't know why -- they'd be able to kill anything with a decent squad of two dozen. It doesn't matter if they can't survive a full round of melee when each one has an attack bonus of +100. Power attacking for 40, the group could easily drop a Balor before he got to act. And even if he did, with pooled HP (over 400!), they'd survive his full attack easily... All this with an encounter level of about 12!

Furthermore, a single Legion Devil won't get the benefit of any of these -- he'd have a CR much less than the 3 specified in the book -- I'd say closer to CR 1!

These guys need their per-ally bonus reduced or capped, or else specify that the normal encounter calculation rules don't apply -- they seem like their CR is closer to the number of devils in the legion.
KurenaiYami
05-28-07, 07:44 PM I've been reading the Fiendish Compendium II, and I'm really uncertain about the Legion Devils.
Just to nitpick, it's Fiendish Codex, not Compendium. I'm not trying to be rude, it's just the OCD.

For those who don't have the book, they're a 3-HD, CR 3 devil, who have a set of special abilities that give major benefits when they fight in a unit with other legion devils.

First, they share their HP; all the legion devils in a unit (defined as being within 100 feet) pool their HP; any injury is deducted from the pool, and healing to any individual is added to that pool -- they all live or die together.
This is calculated into their CR fairly well. More of them makes this ability better, but the +2 EL for every doubling still works well.

Second, they have evasion, plus a special ability that, when any spell or effect hits more than one legion devil, they all roll saves, and then they all use the best of the lot. In other words, area effects are unlikely to work, because the more you can catch in the area (and they tend to form closely-packed clusters), the more likely that one will save successfully, which means they ALL save successfully. And with evasion, reflex-half evocations are virtually useless unless your DC is so high that they only save on a 20.
I would definately suggest not using AoE attacks against them, then. This is simply one of the creature's special tactics that you have to learn to get around, and it isn't especially hard to get around either. Most monsters' abilities are far more troublesome.

Third, if you target a single legion devil with a mind effect, the whole legion saves against it, and they share the result -- success or fail. That would make "will partial" effects useful, if only for the partial, but these guys are also immune to fear, which removes most of the interesting effects.
See reply above. Makes about as much sense to use a mind-affecting effect on these guys as it does to use fire against something with the fire subtype. You just have to use something different.

Now, the effect I'm most confused by is this: Legion's Battle Skill gives each legion devil "a +4 bonus on attack rolls for every other legion devil within 60 feet."

WHAT?!

I mean, a half-dozen of these geeks would have an attack bonus of +28, with an encounter level of 8. That's a ridiculous value -- at 8th level, a dedicated melee fighter would only be able to come up with, maybe, +18. They don't have power attack by default, but I don't know why -- they'd be able to kill anything with a decent squad of two dozen. It doesn't matter if they can't survive a full round of melee when each one has an attack bonus of +100. Power attacking for 40, the group could easily drop a Balor before he got to act. And even if he did, with pooled HP (over 400!), they'd survive his full attack easily... All this with an encounter level of about 12!

These guys need their per-ally bonus reduced or capped, or else specify that the normal encounter calculation rules don't apply -- they seem like their CR is closer to two plus the number of devils in the legion.

This would be far more troublesome if it weren't for the fact that their attacks are rather weak, and you can only be surrounded by eight at a time, assuming you're medium.

What this is is a creature that scales very well. It doesn't hit that point most creatures hit where 32 or so is just fodder for a big bad guy. Even then, it will be a threat.

Also, power attack for forty? What? You can only power attack up to your base attack bonus, which for this creature is 3.
El_Machinae
05-28-07, 08:29 PM With those bonuses (and they seem stupidly high ...) they'd always powerattack.
Lina_Inverse
05-28-07, 08:42 PM These guys need their per-ally bonus reduced or capped, or else specify that the normal encounter calculation rules don't apply -- they seem like their CR is closer to the number of devils in the legion.

20 legion devils are certainly not 1024 times as strong as 1 of them. Remember +2CR x2 as powerful.
Karak_Nechot
05-28-07, 11:55 PM Power attacking for 40

Impossible. They can only Power Attack for 3 with their BAB

With those bonuses (and they seem stupidly high ...) they'd always powerattack.

For 3 extra damage per hit, or 6 if they get a two-handed weapon at the MOST. And that I find questionable, as they have a built-in shield arm.

Doing anything that increases their BAB to get more use out of Power Attack raises the CR of the creature, so that's not an issue. Potentially, you could find a min/max point with levels of a full BAB class to make Power Attack incredibly potent, but, at that point, the CR of these things makes them an impractical encounter.

Really, getting a horde of these guys is pretty rough, but, at the same time, it's really accounted in the raise in EL. If you got something like 80 of these guys all packed in together, you have a near-epic encounter, and epic characters can quite easily deal with +248 attacks, especially with the pitance of 1d8+3 damage per attack. It's just not that big a deal when you look at the overall game impact.
Keenath
05-29-07, 09:04 AM Okay, okay, I forgot the power attack limit, never mind.

Yes, as long as they can't power attack more than 3, they're just sure-hit mosquito bites. My appologies.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Keenath 05-28-07, 07:29 PM	I've been reading the Fiendish Compendium II, and I'm really uncertain about the Legion Devils. For those who don't have the book, they're a 3-HD, CR 3 devil, who have a set of special abilities that give major benefits when they fight in a unit with other legion devils. First, they share their HP; all the legion devils in a unit (defined as being within 100 feet) pool their HP; any injury is deducted from the pool, and healing to any individual is added to that pool -- they all live or die together. Second, they have evasion, plus a special ability that, when any spell or effect hits more than one legion devil, they all roll saves, and then they all use the best of the lot. In other words, area effects are unlikely to work, because the more you can catch in the area (and they tend to form closely-packed clusters), the more likely that one will save successfully, which means they ALL save successfully. And with evasion, reflex-half evocations are virtually useless unless your DC is so high that they only save on a 20. Third, if you target a single legion devil with a mind effect, the whole legion saves against it, and they share the result -- success or fail. That would make "will partial" effects useful, if only for the partial, but these guys are also immune to fear, which removes most of the interesting effects. Now, the effect I'm most confused by is this: Legion's Battle Skill gives each legion devil "a +4 bonus on attack rolls for every other legion devil within 60 feet." WHAT?! I mean, a half-dozen of these geeks would have an attack bonus of +28, with an encounter level of 8. That's a ridiculous value -- at 8th level, a dedicated melee fighter would only be able to come up with, maybe, +18. They don't have power attack by default, but I don't know why -- they'd be able to kill anything with a decent squad of two dozen. It doesn't matter if they can't survive a full round of melee when each one has an attack bonus of +100. Power attacking for 40, the group could easily drop a Balor before he got to act. And even if he did, with pooled HP (over 400!), they'd survive his full attack easily... All this with an encounter level of about 12! Furthermore, a single Legion Devil won't get the benefit of any of these -- he'd have a CR much less than the 3 specified in the book -- I'd say closer to CR 1! These guys need their per-ally bonus reduced or capped, or else specify that the normal encounter calculation rules don't apply -- they seem like their CR is closer to the number of devils in the legion.
KurenaiYami 05-28-07, 07:44 PM	I've been reading the Fiendish Compendium II, and I'm really uncertain about the Legion Devils. Just to nitpick, it's Fiendish Codex, not Compendium. I'm not trying to be rude, it's just the OCD. For those who don't have the book, they're a 3-HD, CR 3 devil, who have a set of special abilities that give major benefits when they fight in a unit with other legion devils. First, they share their HP; all the legion devils in a unit (defined as being within 100 feet) pool their HP; any injury is deducted from the pool, and healing to any individual is added to that pool -- they all live or die together. This is calculated into their CR fairly well. More of them makes this ability better, but the +2 EL for every doubling still works well. Second, they have evasion, plus a special ability that, when any spell or effect hits more than one legion devil, they all roll saves, and then they all use the best of the lot. In other words, area effects are unlikely to work, because the more you can catch in the area (and they tend to form closely-packed clusters), the more likely that one will save successfully, which means they ALL save successfully. And with evasion, reflex-half evocations are virtually useless unless your DC is so high that they only save on a 20. I would definately suggest not using AoE attacks against them, then. This is simply one of the creature's special tactics that you have to learn to get around, and it isn't especially hard to get around either. Most monsters' abilities are far more troublesome. Third, if you target a single legion devil with a mind effect, the whole legion saves against it, and they share the result -- success or fail. That would make "will partial" effects useful, if only for the partial, but these guys are also immune to fear, which removes most of the interesting effects. See reply above. Makes about as much sense to use a mind-affecting effect on these guys as it does to use fire against something with the fire subtype. You just have to use something different. Now, the effect I'm most confused by is this: Legion's Battle Skill gives each legion devil "a +4 bonus on attack rolls for every other legion devil within 60 feet." WHAT?! I mean, a half-dozen of these geeks would have an attack bonus of +28, with an encounter level of 8. That's a ridiculous value -- at 8th level, a dedicated melee fighter would only be able to come up with, maybe, +18. They don't have power attack by default, but I don't know why -- they'd be able to kill anything with a decent squad of two dozen. It doesn't matter if they can't survive a full round of melee when each one has an attack bonus of +100. Power attacking for 40, the group could easily drop a Balor before he got to act. And even if he did, with pooled HP (over 400!), they'd survive his full attack easily... All this with an encounter level of about 12! These guys need their per-ally bonus reduced or capped, or else specify that the normal encounter calculation rules don't apply -- they seem like their CR is closer to two plus the number of devils in the legion. This would be far more troublesome if it weren't for the fact that their attacks are rather weak, and you can only be surrounded by eight at a time, assuming you're medium. What this is is a creature that scales very well. It doesn't hit that point most creatures hit where 32 or so is just fodder for a big bad guy. Even then, it will be a threat. Also, power attack for forty? What? You can only power attack up to your base attack bonus, which for this creature is 3.
El_Machinae 05-28-07, 08:29 PM	With those bonuses (and they seem stupidly high ...) they'd always powerattack.
Lina_Inverse 05-28-07, 08:42 PM	These guys need their per-ally bonus reduced or capped, or else specify that the normal encounter calculation rules don't apply -- they seem like their CR is closer to the number of devils in the legion. 20 legion devils are certainly not 1024 times as strong as 1 of them. Remember +2CR x2 as powerful.
Karak_Nechot 05-28-07, 11:55 PM	Power attacking for 40 Impossible. They can only Power Attack for 3 with their BAB With those bonuses (and they seem stupidly high ...) they'd always powerattack. For 3 extra damage per hit, or 6 if they get a two-handed weapon at the MOST. And that I find questionable, as they have a built-in shield arm. Doing anything that increases their BAB to get more use out of Power Attack raises the CR of the creature, so that's not an issue. Potentially, you could find a min/max point with levels of a full BAB class to make Power Attack incredibly potent, but, at that point, the CR of these things makes them an impractical encounter. Really, getting a horde of these guys is pretty rough, but, at the same time, it's really accounted in the raise in EL. If you got something like 80 of these guys all packed in together, you have a near-epic encounter, and epic characters can quite easily deal with +248 attacks, especially with the pitance of 1d8+3 damage per attack. It's just not that big a deal when you look at the overall game impact.
Keenath 05-29-07, 09:04 AM	Okay, okay, I forgot the power attack limit, never mind. Yes, as long as they can't power attack more than 3, they're just sure-hit mosquito bites. My appologies.