Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Silversheen197 04-23-08, 12:01 AM	I went and saw The Forbidden Kingdom today, and I decided to stat up the Monkey King (the one from the actual Chinese legend, not the one from the movie). Here's what I came up with: Monkey King; paragon anthropomorphic monkey, 30th-level monk Small Outsider (Native) Hit Dice: 30d8+630 (870 hp) Initiative: +12 Speed: 190 ft. (38 squares), climb 190 ft. Armor Class: 69 (+1 size, +12 Dex, +5 natural, +12 insight, +12 luck, +18 Wisdom), touch 64, flat-footed 57 Base Attack/Grapple: +20/+19 Attack: Monkey King’s staff +64 melee (1d6+52) or bite +58 melee (1d4+27) Full Attack: Monkey King’s staff +62/+62/+62/+57/+52 melee (1d6+45) +66/+66/+66/+61/+56 melee (1d4+37) and bite +53 melee (1d4+24) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with Large quarterstaff) Special Attacks: Ki strike (epic, lawful, adamantine), quivering palm, spell-like abilities Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/epic, empty body, fast healing 20, immunity to disease and poison, improved evasion, low-light vision, resistance to cold 10 and fire 10, slow fall, spell resistance 55, tongue of the sun and moon, wholeness of body (60 points) Saves: Fort +27, Ref +31, Will +31 (+29, +32, +33 vs. enchantments) Abilities: Str 27, Dex 34, Con 28, Int 23, Wis 34, Cha 24 Skills: Balance +65, Climb +63, Escape Artist +57, Hide +59, Jump +115, Listen +55, Spot +55, Tumble +55 Feats: Agile, Combat Reflexes, Defensive Sweep (PH2), Deflect Arrows, Fiery Fist (PH2), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Strike, Infinite Deflection, Ki Blast (PH2), Monkey Grip (CW), Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting, Reflect Arrows, Stunning Fist (DC 37; 37/day), Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Proficiency (monk weapons), Wield Oversized Weapon (CW) Possessions: +10 ki focus adamantine (+7) quarterstaff of sizing Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day--dimension door. Caster level 45th. 3/day--greater dispel magic, haste, see invisibility. Caster level 15th. As of now, he's a 30th-level monk paragon anthropomorphic monkey.Questions, comments, and critiques are welcome, especially if they're critiques of the feats I've chosen and of what other items he should have. Also, can anyone suggest how I could (legally) give him an ability like the legend's ability to transform his hairs into clones of himself?
Space_Dragon 04-23-08, 01:37 AM	I'd give him more information pertaining to divination and movement and less combat powers. From what little I know of Chinese mythology, the monkey king was really good at getting around and learning things, but I don't recall his battle prowess being a talking point. Could be wrong, of course. I think the only way to do justice to the legend would be to give him divine ranks, actually. The monkey king was a divine being, one who interacted regularly with the Celestial Beaurocracy (even if he wasn't part of it) and his cloning ability screams "Salient Divine Ability." I'd make him a demigod, DvR 2 or 3 perhaps.
DebiHuman 04-23-08, 01:44 AM	Feats: Agile, Combat Reflexes, Defensive Sweep, Deflect Arrows, Fiery Fist, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Strike, Infinite Deflection, Ki Blast, Monkey Grip, Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting, Reflect Arrows, Stunning Fist (DC 37; 37/day), Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Proficiency (monk weapons), Wield Oversized Weapon With 20 feats, the Monkey King should have 60 Hit Dice. You neglected to note which (if any) feats are bonus feats. Also, after 20th level or 20 HD, creatures are eligible for epic feats. You are using feats from books that aren't open gaming content (PH2), please designate where these feats are from. At this point, it may be worth giving him Divine Rank as in Deities and Demigods. These rules are open gaming content and can be found in the SRD here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm Small creatures cannot use Huge weapons. Debby
Silversheen197 04-23-08, 02:40 AM	I'd give him more information pertaining to divination and movement and less combat powers. From what little I know of Chinese mythology, the monkey king was really good at getting around and learning things, but I don't recall his battle prowess being a talking point. Could be wrong, of course. I think the only way to do justice to the legend would be to give him divine ranks, actually. The monkey king was a divine being, one who interacted regularly with the Celestial Beaurocracy (even if he wasn't part of it) and his cloning ability screams "Salient Divine Ability." I'd make him a demigod, DvR 2 or 3 perhaps. While the Monkey King was Immortal, he wasn't a god. While immortals have tons of nifty abilities, they are still a far cry from gods. And as to his battle prowess, before he even got his signature staff, he defeated an extremely powerful demon. With 20 feats, the Monkey King should have 60 Hit Dice. You neglected to note which (if any) feats are bonus feats. Also, after 20th level or 20 HD, creatures are eligible for epic feats. You are using feats from books that aren't open gaming content (PH2), please designate where these feats are from. At this point, it may be worth giving him Divine Rank as in Deities and Demigods. These rules are open gaming content and can be found in the SRD here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm Small creatures cannot use Huge weapons. Debby The feats in italics are his bonus feats (I find it easier to do italics than write a (B)). And he does have epic feats: Improved Combat Expertise, Infinite Deflection and Reflect Arrows, as well as Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting. The Huge weapon was supposed to say Large (which it now does), and with both Monkey Grip and Wield Oversized Weapon, he can use a Large quarterstaff in two hands for a -2 penalty to attack.
DebiHuman 04-23-08, 02:58 AM	The feats in italics are his bonus feats (I find it easier to do italics than write a (B)). And he does have epic feats: Improved Combat Expertise, Infinite Deflection and Reflect Arrows, as well as Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting. The Huge weapon was supposed to say Large (which it now does), and with both Monkey Grip and Wield Oversized Weapon, he can use a Large quarterstaff in two hands for a -2 penalty to attack. If you had stated that from the beginning it would have saved a lot of headaches :) Not bad then. Actually Divine Rank 0 is for immortals who aren't necessarily gods. Rank 0 Creatures of this rank are sometimes called quasi-deities or hero deities. Creatures that have a mortal and a deity as parents also fall into this category. These entities cannot grant spells, but are immortal and usually have one or more ability scores that are far above the norm for their species. They may have some worshipers. Ordinary mortals do not have a divine rank of 0. They lack a divine rank altogether. As I previously mentioned: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm This is exactly the reason Divine Rank 0 exists--for immortal creatures. I think giving out 8 bonus feats is too many even for an immortal creature. Why does he have all these bonus feats? Did any of them come from the Templates you used? If so, then you really need to indicate that as well in a separate feats section. Just as you would indicate a separate section for skills. Creatures with a climb speed should have this noted: A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC higher than 0, but it always can choose to take 10, even if rushed or threatened while climbing. If a creature with a climb speed chooses an accelerated climb (see above), it moves at double its climb speed (or at its land speed, whichever is slower) and makes a single Climb check at a -5 penalty. Such a creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it. It cannot, however, use the run action while climbing. I don't know if you factored it in, but small creatures have a +4 bonus on Hide (I always forget to factor that stuff in so I wasn't sure if you remembered or not). Debby
Silversheen197 04-23-08, 09:58 AM	If you had stated that from the beginning it would have saved a lot of headaches :) Not bad then. Actually Divine Rank 0 is for immortals who aren't necessarily gods. As I previously mentioned: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm This is exactly the reason Divine Rank 0 exists--for immortal creatures. I know about DR 0 being for immortals that aren't actual deities, but I invite you to actually look at what it offers: Hit Dice: max hp per die (paragon gets max hp per die +12) Speed: Base speed for Small biped is 50 ft. (paragon gets normal base speed x3, which is higher) Armor Class: Since the MK doesn't have 20 HD of Outsider, it gets its normal natural armor + its DR...which is 0, and a deflection bonus equal to its DR...again 0. Attack/Full Attack: Bonus to attacks equal to its DR...0 again. Special Attacks: All the listed special attacks are for DR 1 and higher. Special Qualities: DR 10/epic (same as paragon template), fire resistance 5 + DR (less than paragon template), and SR 32+DR (less than paragon template) Saves: +DR to saving throws...0, less than the paragon template's +10. Abilities: Here's actually something good. It's not listed, but he would get the divine ability array. However, that ends up being less overall than the paragon template's +15 to all abilities. Skills: +DR to all skills...+0. Paragon gives +10. Feats: As for Hit Dice and class (paragon gives one bonus feat of your choice) So, DR 0 really doesn't give anything except for divine ability array, DR, SR, and slight fire resistance. I think giving out 8 bonus feats is too many even for an immortal creature. Why does he have all these bonus feats? Did any of them come from the Templates you used? If so, then you really need to indicate that as well in a separate feats section. Just as you would indicate a separate section for skills. Creatures with a climb speed should have this noted: Insert Climb speed text here. Six of the bonus feats are for being a monk. A monk normally gives three, I added the weapon proficiencies as one (They normally don't "count" as feats), and then he gets two Epic Monk Bonus Feats. Monkies automatically get Weapon Finesse, and the paragon template adds any one bonus feat of your choice. I know, I forgot to add the Climb speed description. I was going quickly. I don't know if you factored it in, but small creatures have a +4 bonus on Hide (I always forget to factor that stuff in so I wasn't sure if you remembered or not). I did remember to add the +4 to Hide, but you've just reminded me to add the +1 to attack from being Small. I'll do that when I get back! Thanks for the critiquing so far!
DebiHuman 04-23-08, 11:40 PM	Six of the bonus feats are for being a monk. A monk normally gives three, I added the weapon proficiencies as one (They normally don't "count" as feats), and then he gets two Epic Monk Bonus Feats. Monkies automatically get Weapon Finesse, and the paragon template adds any one bonus feat of your choice. Ah, you should note how many levels of Monk the Monkey King has. If you list it as an outsider then it seems like all of the dice are strictly outsider dice. Who would be the wiser? Debby
Silversheen197 04-24-08, 01:31 AM	Ah, you should note how many levels of Monk the Monkey King has. If you list it as an outsider then it seems like all of the dice are strictly outsider dice. Who would be the wiser? Debby It has been changed.
EvilCouch 04-24-08, 01:59 AM	Also, can anyone suggest how I could (legally) give him an ability like the legend's ability to transform his hairs into clones of himself?Major Image. It creates an illusion that appears to all senses but touch to be real. A backup option would be a Simulacrum with Rapid Spell applied to it. The down side of that is that even with Rapid Spell, it still has an incredibly long casting time. Also, the plural of monkey is monkeys.
DebiHuman 04-25-08, 02:49 PM	I think he still has too many feats. At 30 HD he should have 10 feats not 12 and the rest are accounted for as bonus feats. Also these are his epic feats: Epic Feats: Improved Combat Reflexes, Infinite Deflection, Reflect Arrows, Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting. He doesn't have Improved Combat Expertise. Debby
Silversheen197 04-25-08, 06:29 PM	I think he still has too many feats. At 30 HD he should have 10 feats not 12 and the rest are accounted for as bonus feats. Also these are his epic feats: Epic Feats: Improved Combat Reflexes, Infinite Deflection, Reflect Arrows, Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting. He doesn't have Improved Combat Expertise. Debby It's possible that I may have miscounted. I'll double check (I'm thinking I gave him one too many epic monk bonus feats), although, at 30 HD, a creature has 11 feats (don't forget the one you get at 1st level!). And I meant to say Improved Combat Reflexes instead of Improved Combat Expertise, but apparently my mind was elsewhere when I was typing.
DebiHuman 04-26-08, 02:15 PM	You are correct; the Monkey King should have 11 feats. I forgot the one at first level. I really like what you've done. I'm still toying with the idea of stating up a Divine Rank 0 version using your creature as a basis if you don't mind. Mostly this would be for comparison sake (and for explaining the immortality). Also, you left off some parts of the stat block. I took a stab at it here but I wasn't sure if this was what you had in mind or not, especially since I have not seen the movie so these are just a guess. Environment: Any Organization: Unique Challenge Rating: 27 Treasure: Standard (or maybe double or triple?) Alignment: Chaotic Neutral Advancement:— Level Adjustment:— Debby
sally_jones 04-26-08, 03:14 PM	throw monk levels out. the legendary monkey king wore armor. swordsage is where its at. the quarterstaff is definately the weapon. sacred vow and vow of obediance are must. its almost summer again so its about time i read journey to the west again. also, we can all learn something from the monkey king.
Silversheen197 04-27-08, 12:57 AM	You are correct; the Monkey King should have 11 feats. I forgot the one at first level. I really like what you've done. I'm still toying with the idea of stating up a Divine Rank 0 version using your creature as a basis if you don't mind. Mostly this would be for comparison sake (and for explaining the immortality). Also, you left off some parts of the stat block. I took a stab at it here but I wasn't sure if this was what you had in mind or not, especially since I have not seen the movie so these are just a guess. Environment: Any Organization: Unique Challenge Rating: 27 Treasure: Standard (or maybe double or triple?) Alignment: Chaotic Neutral Advancement:— Level Adjustment:— Debby Go ahead and do your comparison, I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with. Oh, and treasure is really just his staff, so far. throw monk levels out. the legendary monkey king wore armor. swordsage is where its at. the quarterstaff is definately the weapon. sacred vow and vow of obediance are must. its almost summer again so its about time i read journey to the west again. also, we can all learn something from the monkey king. Really? I haven't read Journey to the West actually, so I'm basing my creature off what is probably the very, very beginning of the entire story, where there isn't much to go on. I should probably read it.
DebiHuman 04-27-08, 02:49 PM	This may be helpful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Wukong. Other magical items the Monkey King acquired were golden chain mail, a phoenix-feather cap and cloud-walking boots. Also, his Strength should be his highest ability. Hmmmm. Also, I think your attack and full attack lines are incorrect. Melee is BAB plus Str bonus plus size. Should be 20+8 +1 for a total of 29 not 62. Both the staff and the bite would be primary attacks. Debby
Silversheen197 04-27-08, 07:19 PM	This may be helpful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Wukong. Other magical items the Monkey King acquired were golden chain mail, a phoenix-feather cap and cloud-walking boots. Also, his Strength should be his highest ability. Hmmmm. Also, I think your attack and full attack lines are incorrect. Melee is BAB plus Str bonus plus size. Should be 20+8 +1 for a total of 29 not 62. Both the staff and the bite would be primary attacks. Debby Thanks, that's good information! The Attack/Full Attack lines are actually correct: He has a BAB of +20, Str of +8, size of +1, luck bonus of +25 (from paragon template), and enhancement bonus of +10 (from his staff) for a total of +64. On Full Attack, he's Two-Weapon Fighting, which means he takes a -2 penalty, bringing him to +62, and he gets to apply his Dex to his off-hand attacks, giving him a +66. Of course, this matters little, as because of the info you just gave me, I'm going to have to re-stat him completely. And I don't even have Tome of Battle. Hmm, what to do, what to do... And to head it off before you mention it, he also gets a +20 luck bonus to damage from the paragon template as well, so that's where all the extra damage is coming from.
DebiHuman 04-27-08, 10:44 PM	Thanks, that's good information! The Attack/Full Attack lines are actually correct: He has a BAB of +20, Str of +8, size of +1, luck bonus of +25 (from paragon template), and enhancement bonus of +10 (from his staff) for a total of +64. On Full Attack, he's Two-Weapon Fighting, which means he takes a -2 penalty, bringing him to +62, and he gets to apply his Dex to his off-hand attacks, giving him a +66. Of course, this matters little, as because of the info you just gave me, I'm going to have to re-stat him completely. And I don't even have Tome of Battle. Hmm, what to do, what to do... And to head it off before you mention it, he also gets a +20 luck bonus to damage from the paragon template as well, so that's where all the extra damage is coming from. Sheesh, that's what I get for not knowing what the templates add. I need Templates for Dummies to keep up with the rules! My brain hurts just looking at all the work you've put into this. I think I'm gonna pass on trying to make my own Monkey King after all. Not because it wouldn't be cool, but I'm not sure I'd do a decent job of it. You're obviously much better at this than I am. Debby
lunoc 04-29-08, 09:55 PM	i thought the monkey king was medium. plus he seemed like a caotic to me from what ive read. just a thought
sally_jones 04-29-08, 11:39 PM	i agree w/ the paragon template because monkey's skill was because he was inherently awesome not because of levels. that being said, he definately picked up swordsage and/or rogue levels in the part of his life before imprisonment. the levels gained after imprisonment would be sohei, because he protected the monk tripitaka(sp?). monkey was definately small size. after all he was a monkey.
Silversheen197 04-30-08, 06:06 PM	i agree w/ the paragon template because monkey's skill was because he was inherently awesome not because of levels. that being said, he definately picked up swordsage and/or rogue levels in the part of his life before imprisonment. the levels gained after imprisonment would be sohei, because he protected the monk tripitaka(sp?). monkey was definately small size. after all he was a monkey. I definately think swordsage is where it's at, but, as I mentioned earlier, I don't have ToB, so I can't restat him like that. And yes, he is inherently awesome, plus the triple speed from paragon template helps with increasing his Jump modifier, which helps mimic the "cloud flip" ability he has.
RAGNAROKISCOMING2007 05-01-08, 09:53 AM	The monkey king was the size of a human so he should be medium sie. Also wikipedia has the best description on him. Instead of making him immortal or a deity, I would make him a cosmic entity with a cosmic rank of 13 or 14.
DebiHuman 05-01-08, 01:57 PM	According to wikepedia, the monkey was the size of a monkey i.e. Small, only in the movie is he portrayed as Medium. The version you create depends on which is your primary source. As for "cosmic entity" where are the rules on that? Divine Ranks are in the SRD and in Deities and Demigods . Debby
RAGNAROKISCOMING2007 05-01-08, 04:39 PM	According to wikepedia, the monkey was the size of a monkey i.e. Small, only in the movie is he portrayed as Medium. The version you create depends on which is your primary source. As for "cosmic entity" where are the rules on that? Divine Ranks are in the SRD and in Deities and Demigods . Debby cosmic entities were created by dicefreaks. essentially it's a very powerful creature with powers rivaling deities, though they are not deities. For example: Asmodeus would be a cosmic entity as he is the ruler of hell but he's still not a god.
sally_jones 05-01-08, 04:56 PM	monkey is small. anything more or less is blasphemy. anyone posting on these threads who hasn't read journey to the west should delete their post, go read journey to the west, come back, and post much more enlightened comments. yes. i am a monkey fanboy. it took a hyped up movie with two good actors and some bad writers for me to realize this.