feral PC claw's dmg as "only" natural attack & # of atks [Archive] - Wizards Community

feral PC claw's dmg as "only" natural attack & # of atks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arianna Greenleaf
08-15-03, 09:03 PM No books in front of me, but the MM 3.5 had a section (perhaps the "attack & full-attack section at the beginning, or "natural weapons" in the back?) about monsters with only a SINGLE natural attack getting 1.5x STR added to damage, whereas beasties with more than one natural attack (say, bite & claws) don't get that little bonus.

Q1: So, take a PC (half-ogre, large-size), add the Feral template (gaining TWO natural claws at 2d6), and what is the damage from STR... 1x or 1.5x? These claws would be the only natural weapon it has... but, they have 2 of them.... but, "2 claws" can qualify as a SINGLE primary weapon apparently... I flipped through the MM entries (though it was fast) and didn't find any beasties with a single primary weapon that had "2"... most single weapons were 1 bite or 1 something -- so I couldn't use that as a basis.

Q2: Now, number of attacks. It seems that this combo would grant a primary "2 claws" attack for the PC, which never increases the number of attacks/round? I can't remember where I peiced that together, but I believe it was in the "natural weapons" section in the back of MM 3.5, off the top of my head. So, this PC forever rolls a max of 2 claw atks per round, regardless of how many BAB would grant it?

<EDIT>
Q2b: Does the above also mean that a low level PC (one with less than +6 bab) gets to make TWO attacks as a full-attack action with no attack penalty?
</EDIT>

Q3: Ok, I thought I saw this in MM 3.0, but couldn't find it anywhere in 3.5... if your primary weapon is "2 claws," do you make 1 or 2 attack rolls? I realize that sounds like a stupid question, and things like REND wouldn't make sense with 1 atk roll, since you would ALWAYS hit with "both claws" if you hit at all. BUT, I couldn't find a 3.5 rule on it, and wanted to double check.

Q4: Improved Natural Attack Damage feat from MM 3.5 (near the back); it doesn't say you can take it multiple times and effects stack (such as the wording in the improved natural armor feat), but it also doesn't say you can't do it. We assume you can only take it once - thoughts?

Q5: What happens to a feral/large creature (2d6 claws) that becomes a dragon disciple at the point where it gains claw/bite attacks? We assume that the higher damage (2d6) from before superceeds, rather than bumping up damage a step...
necrosnoop110
07-03-04, 11:12 AM Arianna Greenleaf did you ever get any answers to these very good questions I am looking to find out the answers myself.
Moleman
07-03-04, 01:29 PM Hello there.

Q1
You add your str. bonus to each att.. Not x1.5 or x0.5.

Q2
I'm no expert but I would say that you do not get exstra att. based on BAB. Here is why:
Cloud Giant stats takes from 3.5 system reference documents.
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+32

Attack: Gargantuan morningstar +22 melee (4d6+18) or slam +22 melee (1d6+12)

Full Attack: Gargantuan morningstar +22/+17/+12 melee (4d6+18) or 2 slams +22 melee (1d6+12)

It gets 3 att. with the morningstar but only two with the slam(Natural) att.. Now if you would get extra att. based on high BAB the cloud giant would get the two slam att. more.

Q2b
Yes you get to make two claw att. at lower lvls. I think it's a bit like feats, either you can or you can't. If you have two claws you can use them both. You can also see this when looking at animal stats, those who have claw att. all have two, no more, no less.

Q3
You roll fore each att..

Q4
You can take this feat as many times as you want. The reason it is stated in natural amour is that it makes a difference wether or not the effects stack. the effects of this feat don't stack, they replace that with was there before, so to speak.

Q5
You only get the claw and bite att. from the dragon diciple if you don't already have them. I.E. your hands can't turn into claws if they already are.

Hope I helped, otherwise just disregard this entry.
Elemmakil
07-03-04, 02:39 PM Originally posted by Moleman
You can take this feat as many times as you want. The reason it is stated in natural amour is that it makes a difference wether or not the effects stack. the effects of this feat don't stack, they replace that with was there before, so to speak. I thought that you couldn't take one feat multiple times, because of the line, on, as an example, Weapon Specialization:
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.However, I can't find anything that explicitly says that you can't take a feat more than once. It just seems like you shouldn't be able to. With Improved Natural Attack, it then seems like the feat should have the same 'you can take this multiple times, applying it to different weapons' line Weapon Specialization does.

-Elemmakil
WizO_Negathael
07-03-04, 05:10 PM Originally posted by Arianna Greenleaf
Q1: So, take a PC (half-ogre, large-size), add the Feral template (gaining TWO natural claws at 2d6), and what is the damage from STR... 1x or 1.5x? These claws would be the only natural weapon it has... but, they have 2 of them.... but, "2 claws" can qualify as a SINGLE primary weapon apparently... I flipped through the MM entries (though it was fast) and didn't find any beasties with a single primary weapon that had "2"... most single weapons were 1 bite or 1 something -- so I couldn't use that as a basis.

A1: From the 3.5 SRD:-
When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature's remaining natural weapons are secondary.

The primary weapon is given in the creature's Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature's Full Attack entry.

If you look at the entry for a mule, their Full Attack is 2 hooves +4 melee (1d4+3). A mule has a Strength of 16 (+3 bonus), thus indicating that you add your bonus, not a multiple of your bonus, to the roll. The treant also supports this, having 2 slams +12 melee (2d6+9) with a 29 Strength (+9 bonus).

Q2: Now, number of attacks. It seems that this combo would grant a primary "2 claws" attack for the PC, which never increases the number of attacks/round? I can't remember where I peiced that together, but I believe it was in the "natural weapons" section in the back of MM 3.5, off the top of my head. So, this PC forever rolls a max of 2 claw atks per round, regardless of how many BAB would grant it?

A2: From the 3.5 SRD:-
Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons.

Q2b: Does the above also mean that a low level PC (one with less than +6 bab) gets to make TWO attacks as a full-attack action with no attack penalty?

A2b: Yes, as long as the PC is attacking with a natural weapon, not an unarmed strike.

Q3: Ok, I thought I saw this in MM 3.0, but couldn't find it anywhere in 3.5... if your primary weapon is "2 claws," do you make 1 or 2 attack rolls? I realize that sounds like a stupid question, and things like REND wouldn't make sense with 1 atk roll, since you would ALWAYS hit with "both claws" if you hit at all. BUT, I couldn't find a 3.5 rule on it, and wanted to double check.

A3: You make two seperate attack rolls at the same attack bonus.

Q4: Improved Natural Attack Damage feat from MM 3.5 (near the back); it doesn't say you can take it multiple times and effects stack (such as the wording in the improved natural armor feat), but it also doesn't say you can't do it. We assume you can only take it once - thoughts?

A4: From the Monster Manual 3.5 Errata:-
Improved Natural Attack Feat: You can take this feat multiple times, but each time it applies to a different natural attack.

Q5: What happens to a feral/large creature (2d6 claws) that becomes a dragon disciple at the point where it gains claw/bite attacks? We assume that the higher damage (2d6) from before superceeds, rather than bumping up damage a step...

A5: From the 3.5 SRD:-
Claws and Bite (Ex): At 2nd level, a dragon disciple gains claw and bite attacks if he does not already have them. Use the values above or the disciple's base claw and bite damage values, whichever are greater.

Hope that helps :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arianna Greenleaf 08-15-03, 09:03 PM	No books in front of me, but the MM 3.5 had a section (perhaps the "attack & full-attack section at the beginning, or "natural weapons" in the back?) about monsters with only a SINGLE natural attack getting 1.5x STR added to damage, whereas beasties with more than one natural attack (say, bite & claws) don't get that little bonus. Q1: So, take a PC (half-ogre, large-size), add the Feral template (gaining TWO natural claws at 2d6), and what is the damage from STR... 1x or 1.5x? These claws would be the only natural weapon it has... but, they have 2 of them.... but, "2 claws" can qualify as a SINGLE primary weapon apparently... I flipped through the MM entries (though it was fast) and didn't find any beasties with a single primary weapon that had "2"... most single weapons were 1 bite or 1 something -- so I couldn't use that as a basis. Q2: Now, number of attacks. It seems that this combo would grant a primary "2 claws" attack for the PC, which never increases the number of attacks/round? I can't remember where I peiced that together, but I believe it was in the "natural weapons" section in the back of MM 3.5, off the top of my head. So, this PC forever rolls a max of 2 claw atks per round, regardless of how many BAB would grant it? <EDIT> Q2b: Does the above also mean that a low level PC (one with less than +6 bab) gets to make TWO attacks as a full-attack action with no attack penalty? </EDIT> Q3: Ok, I thought I saw this in MM 3.0, but couldn't find it anywhere in 3.5... if your primary weapon is "2 claws," do you make 1 or 2 attack rolls? I realize that sounds like a stupid question, and things like REND wouldn't make sense with 1 atk roll, since you would ALWAYS hit with "both claws" if you hit at all. BUT, I couldn't find a 3.5 rule on it, and wanted to double check. Q4: Improved Natural Attack Damage feat from MM 3.5 (near the back); it doesn't say you can take it multiple times and effects stack (such as the wording in the improved natural armor feat), but it also doesn't say you can't do it. We assume you can only take it once - thoughts? Q5: What happens to a feral/large creature (2d6 claws) that becomes a dragon disciple at the point where it gains claw/bite attacks? We assume that the higher damage (2d6) from before superceeds, rather than bumping up damage a step...
necrosnoop110 07-03-04, 11:12 AM	Arianna Greenleaf did you ever get any answers to these very good questions I am looking to find out the answers myself.
Moleman 07-03-04, 01:29 PM	Hello there. Q1 You add your str. bonus to each att.. Not x1.5 or x0.5. Q2 I'm no expert but I would say that you do not get exstra att. based on BAB. Here is why: Cloud Giant stats takes from 3.5 system reference documents. Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+32 Attack: Gargantuan morningstar +22 melee (4d6+18) or slam +22 melee (1d6+12) Full Attack: Gargantuan morningstar +22/+17/+12 melee (4d6+18) or 2 slams +22 melee (1d6+12) It gets 3 att. with the morningstar but only two with the slam(Natural) att.. Now if you would get extra att. based on high BAB the cloud giant would get the two slam att. more. Q2b Yes you get to make two claw att. at lower lvls. I think it's a bit like feats, either you can or you can't. If you have two claws you can use them both. You can also see this when looking at animal stats, those who have claw att. all have two, no more, no less. Q3 You roll fore each att.. Q4 You can take this feat as many times as you want. The reason it is stated in natural amour is that it makes a difference wether or not the effects stack. the effects of this feat don't stack, they replace that with was there before, so to speak. Q5 You only get the claw and bite att. from the dragon diciple if you don't already have them. I.E. your hands can't turn into claws if they already are. Hope I helped, otherwise just disregard this entry.
Elemmakil 07-03-04, 02:39 PM	Originally posted by Moleman You can take this feat as many times as you want. The reason it is stated in natural amour is that it makes a difference wether or not the effects stack. the effects of this feat don't stack, they replace that with was there before, so to speak. I thought that you couldn't take one feat multiple times, because of the line, on, as an example, Weapon Specialization: Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.However, I can't find anything that explicitly says that you can't take a feat more than once. It just seems like you shouldn't be able to. With Improved Natural Attack, it then seems like the feat should have the same 'you can take this multiple times, applying it to different weapons' line Weapon Specialization does. -Elemmakil
WizO_Negathael 07-03-04, 05:10 PM	Originally posted by Arianna Greenleaf Q1: So, take a PC (half-ogre, large-size), add the Feral template (gaining TWO natural claws at 2d6), and what is the damage from STR... 1x or 1.5x? These claws would be the only natural weapon it has... but, they have 2 of them.... but, "2 claws" can qualify as a SINGLE primary weapon apparently... I flipped through the MM entries (though it was fast) and didn't find any beasties with a single primary weapon that had "2"... most single weapons were 1 bite or 1 something -- so I couldn't use that as a basis. A1: From the 3.5 SRD:- When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature's remaining natural weapons are secondary. The primary weapon is given in the creature's Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature's Full Attack entry. If you look at the entry for a mule, their Full Attack is 2 hooves +4 melee (1d4+3). A mule has a Strength of 16 (+3 bonus), thus indicating that you add your bonus, not a multiple of your bonus, to the roll. The treant also supports this, having 2 slams +12 melee (2d6+9) with a 29 Strength (+9 bonus). Q2: Now, number of attacks. It seems that this combo would grant a primary "2 claws" attack for the PC, which never increases the number of attacks/round? I can't remember where I peiced that together, but I believe it was in the "natural weapons" section in the back of MM 3.5, off the top of my head. So, this PC forever rolls a max of 2 claw atks per round, regardless of how many BAB would grant it? A2: From the 3.5 SRD:- Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. Q2b: Does the above also mean that a low level PC (one with less than +6 bab) gets to make TWO attacks as a full-attack action with no attack penalty? A2b: Yes, as long as the PC is attacking with a natural weapon, not an unarmed strike. Q3: Ok, I thought I saw this in MM 3.0, but couldn't find it anywhere in 3.5... if your primary weapon is "2 claws," do you make 1 or 2 attack rolls? I realize that sounds like a stupid question, and things like REND wouldn't make sense with 1 atk roll, since you would ALWAYS hit with "both claws" if you hit at all. BUT, I couldn't find a 3.5 rule on it, and wanted to double check. A3: You make two seperate attack rolls at the same attack bonus. Q4: Improved Natural Attack Damage feat from MM 3.5 (near the back); it doesn't say you can take it multiple times and effects stack (such as the wording in the improved natural armor feat), but it also doesn't say you can't do it. We assume you can only take it once - thoughts? A4: From the Monster Manual 3.5 Errata:- Improved Natural Attack Feat: You can take this feat multiple times, but each time it applies to a different natural attack. Q5: What happens to a feral/large creature (2d6 claws) that becomes a dragon disciple at the point where it gains claw/bite attacks? We assume that the higher damage (2d6) from before superceeds, rather than bumping up damage a step... A5: From the 3.5 SRD:- Claws and Bite (Ex): At 2nd level, a dragon disciple gains claw and bite attacks if he does not already have them. Use the values above or the disciple's base claw and bite damage values, whichever are greater. Hope that helps :)