Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Raven Dark 08-19-05, 01:49 AM	I want to make a Feral Human character, but I have some questions about this. First, I am one of those people who believes that the template gives its special attacks and qualities for racial HD only, not class levels. Having said that, do I treat my human character as having 1 HD for the purposes of this template (so he gets improved grab, darkvision 60 ft., and fast healing 2) or as having 0 HD (which will mean he gets none of the aforementioned abilities)? Which is it?
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-19-05, 02:15 AM	1HD, and don't forget to take that HD into account when figuring your ECL. Technically, humans don't exist without classes, seeing as they aren't in the MM :)
Callahan 08-19-05, 02:23 AM	Technically all base humanoids don't have Hit Die. When you read elves and the rest in the MM it states that they are all represented as 1st level warrior (NPC class from DMG) and that's where most of their HD come from (aside from those races that have an extra HD).
Raven Dark 08-19-05, 09:12 AM	So I get none of those cool HD dependent abilities then?
Malcoren 08-19-05, 05:01 PM	Actually yes, yes you do. They count as 1 HD. That first Hit Die (of Humanoid) is replaced by their first class level. Any monster has to fall within a given category, and for every category there is a Hit Die allocation. Of course, the thing has a pretty bad ECL, so I wouldn't go too crazy with it, for PC's at least.
The Abominable Darkling 08-19-05, 05:08 PM	Humans have no racial hit dice. It simply isn't possible to have a human without at least 1 class level. This was a foggy issue in 3.0, but it has been cleared up decisively in 3.5.
Raven Dark 08-19-05, 05:40 PM	Humans have no racial hit dice. It simply isn't possible to have a human without at least 1 class level. This was a foggy issue in 3.0, but it has been cleared up decisively in 3.5. What cleared it up exactly? It still seems a little foggy to me.
Malcoren 08-19-05, 05:50 PM	"Humans have no racial hit dice. It simply isn't possible to have a human without at least 1 class level. This was a foggy issue in 3.0, but it has been cleared up decisively in 3.5." Yes, where is it cleared up? Question: So, in your game, please explain to me how people grow up from children, and how do their stats work? A child lacks class levels, yes? How can such a character then exist? Cause, last time I checked, short of being hit by level drain or very specific spells and classes, there's no way for you to permanently 'trade out' one class level for another. So, if you had to stat a 6-year-old, how would you do it? Cause, you know, if you can't stat them, how can they exist? :p And I don't see such youngins already being 1st level Wizards, Monks, and the like. Exceptional characters might, but what about the rest of them?
The Abominable Darkling 08-19-05, 06:17 PM	That has always been an issue. In Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, there is a 6-year-old girl in Hommlet. She's listed as being a 1st-level commoner. My friends and I used to joke that the poor child would be saddled with that commoner level for the rest of her life. :) In any case, the game has no rules for representing children. (Which is probably a good thing, all things considered.) Anyway, the issue has been cleared up by removing the racial hit for the problem monsters. Every single one of them (goblins, orcs, elves, and even aasimar and tieflings) now are represented with level 1 warriors. The reason being that losing your racial hit die is a strange and quirky mechanic (to say the least). The system works better when these races have no racial hit dice and simply always possess a class level.
Malcoren 08-19-05, 06:22 PM	"In any case, the game has no rules for representing children. (Which is probably a good thing, all things considered.)" Perhaps not directly. OR, perhaps the 'replace racial levels with class levels' mechanic is exactly that. A 'child' is a 1 HD (or 1/2 HD) Humanoid. Small size, lesser stats (-3 Str/Dex/Con, -1 Int/Wis/Cha, according to D20 Modern). The kid grows up, picks a path in life, and boom, exchanges racial hit die for class one. Easy. That being said, the issue was never cleared up. What you describe is sweeping it under the rug. They didn't address it in 3.0, they just changed the basic monster info in 3.5 so the problem wouldn't be obvious. I say the solution has been there the whole time, no one bothered to connect the dots.
The Abominable Darkling 08-19-05, 06:31 PM	I really don't see this as sweeping it under the rug. How do you normally figure out how many racial hit dice a creature has? You check its Monster Manual entry and use the number of hit dice listed there. Since the entries for elves, gnomes, and the like indicate no racial hit dice, those races have no racial hit dice.
Tyler Do'Urden 08-19-05, 06:34 PM	The kid grows up, picks a path in life, and boom, exchanges racial hit die for class one. Easy. So going to college makes me harder to kill? I mean, I did take that 8am judo class, but still.
The Abominable Darkling 08-19-05, 06:37 PM	The kid grows up, picks a path in life, and boom, exchanges racial hit die for class one. Easy. Yeah, that really isn't so easy. You're glossing over some serious issues here. For example, an aasimar child (an outsider) who grows up to be a fighter would suddenly become much less skilled upon exchanging her outsider hit die for a fighter level.
Raven Dark 08-19-05, 07:04 PM	...Anyway, the issue has been cleared up by removing the racial hit for the problem monsters. Every single one of them (goblins, orcs, elves, and even aasimar and tieflings) now are represented with level 1 warriors. The reason being that losing your racial hit die is a strange and quirky mechanic (to say the least)... I don't quite agree with this point of view just yet, but this observation certainly lends credit to your argument.
Wayward Son 08-22-05, 09:11 AM	So going to college makes me harder to kill? I mean, I did take that 8am judo class, but still. Nobody said the "path in life" had to be college, or even a career. Loafing around behind the barn and drinking sourmash whiskey is a "path", just not a very productive or exciting one. (And, thus, we get the older 1st level Commoner examples.) Edit for mind-boggling typos. :nonono:
Sir Elton 08-22-05, 09:20 AM	So going to college makes me harder to kill? I mean, I did take that 8am judo class, but still. hmm . . . No. I don't think so.
cammobeast 08-22-05, 09:08 PM	so class levels DONT apply when advancing the power level of a template? where is this rule? it has come up many times and i never found a way to resolve it.
The Abominable Darkling 08-22-05, 10:04 PM	There is no rule, as far as I know. It's a very messy area and could use some clarification from WotC. I think it stems from the rather muddy definitions of character level and hit dice. Sometimes they're the same; sometimes they're not.
cammobeast 08-23-05, 09:19 PM	the statment that the abilities dont increase with class levels has been bothering me since i first read this thread. after looking up examples in the MM3.5, it would seem that class levels are considered HD and that your assumption is incorrect. just look up the spell like abilities of the 7th level human (half fiend) it would seem that her 7th HD gave her poison as well as all abilities leading up to poison. think about it... if anyone sees another example that contradicts this (which wouldnt suprise me), let me know.
codexia 08-23-05, 10:27 PM	Ever since I read this i've been going nuts >.> and I know how i'm solving it to. I'm going to give everybody one level in their race based on the chart in the Savage Species book...just...because...the idea of a race with no hitdice is really giving me a headache *Cries* And I never even noticed it till now :/ My players should be happy at least, lol, they get bonus stuff now.
Gonbow 08-24-05, 01:49 AM	Feral template is a bit twitchy. RAW, it implies that a human with it gets no HD benefits. Cust. Service has been qouted as saying that class levels do count for Feral benefits, however. There have been many threads about this template ;)
Raven Dark 08-24-05, 02:44 AM	the statment that the abilities dont increase with class levels has been bothering me since i first read this thread. after looking up examples in the MM3.5, it would seem that class levels are considered HD and that your assumption is incorrect. just look up the spell like abilities of the 7th level human (half fiend) it would seem that her 7th HD gave her poison as well as all abilities leading up to poison. think about it... if anyone sees another example that contradicts this (which wouldnt suprise me), let me know. The DCs for the half-dragon's breath weapon are based off of racial HD only, not class levels. Look at the example given. As has been said, sometimes HD are the same as class levels, and sometimes they are not.
cammobeast 08-24-05, 07:21 PM	thats no surprise to me. but thats not really a contradication, so much as it is an exception (for the half dragon). look right under the special attacks entry.. it specifically mentions that, for the half dragon, only RACIAL hd are used (someting that is NOT noted in the half fiend). to me, that indicates that the half dragon is a intentional exception to the defult rule of counting class levels toward HD. another example of a template where they dont, specifically mention RACIAL HD, and class levels count toward HD of DC/template abilities is the lich p.167. look at the DCs right above his spells.
cammobeast 08-24-05, 07:33 PM	... of course the feral template has two sentneces (one telling to use HD plainly and the other telling you to use monster HD) back to back. first of all monster hit dice to a vague term probably meaning racial HD, second of all who edits this stuff?