FERAL - the ultimate cheese [Archive] - Wizards Community

FERAL - the ultimate cheese [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Emir
12-29-04, 11:37 AM The other night I was at a friend's place and he's got the Savage Species. I checked the book out, and I found the Feral really interesting. Nice look, abilities and all that (Imp. Grab, Pounce, Rake, and Rend), but my DM, being himself, instantly said it's over powered. Now I ask you, is it really over powered, or should we just raise the LA ?
The Vorpal Tribble
12-29-04, 12:14 PM In one of my games I play a feral druid, and the only thing I say thats overpowered is the Fast Healing. However, the Improved Grab, Pounce etc, I've been told it wasn't intended for players, because you can't take levels in a template or some such.
cwslyclgh
12-29-04, 04:02 PM what makes the template not over powered is that the special abilities are specifically tied to its "monster Hit Dice", there for HD from class levels never improve your spcial attacks or fast healing etc. there for a feral human only gains the benifits of a 1 HD feral creature, no matter what level they are.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
12-29-04, 04:41 PM And the massive hit to Int makes it damn near unplayable.
The Vorpal Tribble
12-29-04, 07:02 PM Bah, my druid character with the template got some pretty good rolls and I gave my 16 to intelligence and so now he has a 12. A 12 isn't exactly a dummy. This is the equivalent of an I.Q. of 120, which is considered decently bright. His Wisdom, which is needed the most for Druidical spells is around 19.
ronyon
12-29-04, 07:22 PM What are the benifits of being a one hd feral creature?
What are considered " monsterous Hd"? Would levels in a racial class(paragon), or in a template(ghost,werewolf) work?
Willie the Duck
12-29-04, 07:33 PM VT, there is no direct relation between Int score and I.Q. Even bell-curve games like GURPS don't usually declare a 10 x int = I.Q. ruling.

Ronyon, monster hd are exactly that, the hd of the monster. look up the creature in the MM, see how many hd it has. That's how many monstrous hd it has. At the DM's discression, you can advance in hd as your ecl improves if the type of monster has a variable hd. otherwise, you eventually have to take PC classes, which are almost always statistically better, but don't advance your feral template abilities.

Emir, Savage Species did a number on power levels. That's why 3.0 players say it is 3.5 and 3.5 players say it is 3.0. The only good thing I have to say about it is that they had an impossible task to accomplish, so they met my expectations. That said, feral is not the worst thing in there.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
12-29-04, 09:30 PM Bah, my druid character with the template got some pretty good rolls and I gave my 16 to intelligence and so now he has a 12. A 12 isn't exactly a dummy. This is the equivalent of an I.Q. of 120, which is considered decently bright. His Wisdom, which is needed the most for Druidical spells is around 19.
And the feral template managed to only grant a -4 to Int how? It's -6, IIRC.
The Vorpal Tribble
12-29-04, 10:41 PM VT, there is no direct relation between Int score and I.Q. Even bell-curve games like GURPS don't usually declare a 10 x int = I.Q. ruling.

Well it makes perfect sense. Human standard IQ is 10 in D&D, and 100 in real life. 18 is about the highest you can start out with, and in real life 180 is the upper end of genius. Anything beyond both these points is nigh world class.

And the feral template managed to only grant a -4 to Int how? It's -6, IIRC.

Its -4 in Savage Species, which is what I was going by. Whats IIRC?
Slagger the Chuul
12-29-04, 11:48 PM If I Recall/Remember Correctly.

Raymond_Luxury_Yacht apparently didn't. :P
Willie the Duck
12-30-04, 08:01 PM Well it makes perfect sense. Human standard IQ is 10 in D&D, and 100 in real life. 18 is about the highest you can start out with, and in real life 180 is the upper end of genius. Anything beyond both these points is nigh world class.

But the distributions don't work out, for heroes or regular 3d6 dice rolls. 180 is awefully genious, but those int 6 barbarians are alot more functional than 60 IQ people. It also makes it hard to figure out how to explain anyone with an int over 24.
The Vorpal Tribble
12-31-04, 05:25 AM 180 is awefully genious, but those int 6 barbarians are alot more functional than 60 IQ people.

6 means they are nigh retarded, but not quite. That famous TV guy who I can't remember the name of probably only has an IQ around there, but he's a millionaire. However, he still needs help with day to day life. The only reason your 6 int barbarian is able to do what he does is because he's not being roleplayed correctly. And I don't consider talking in monosylalbles and saying things like 'Tog is mad, Tog bang bang on bear head' as being an indicator of low intelligence.

Apes can learn advance sign language and wolves can learn strategy, but there IQ is still animal, and so barbarians with 6 int can have cunning. However, try to ask them something abstract or philosohpical and they'll have no clue.

24+ means they are bordering superhuman. I believe there have been those with I.Q.'s that high, but its fabulously rare. 18's are VERY generous, specially since half of the world is be low 10. 10 is the average. However, they may still not be that 'smart'. Thats where the other stats come in. An Iq of 20 with a wisdom of 5 means you are an idiot savant. Can calculate faster than a supercomputer but can't be trusted to order a pizza.

A strength of 18-19 is considered the world's strongest man, yet we have those who go up past it. After scores of 18 they become people that the world only sees every few generations, if not centuries. Not just record holders, but those who will almost never be matched again.

Mary Lou Rettin (may be spelling it wrong..) would probably have been considered having a deterity of 19-20 or so. It wasn't until this Olympic year that her score was matched and possibly beaten.

Once past 18 you are getting to those people who by a fabulous sequence of genetics, natural proclivity, and training have pushed themselves beyond what billions of others will ever achieve, or are even capable of achieving.

That these kind of people came together into one party however is where fantasy kicks in ;)
TemporalEnergon
12-31-04, 04:34 PM He has a good point and besides, a few issues back in Dragon they said that it was safe to assume a 10/1 ratio for I.Q./Int.
11d7
12-31-04, 05:47 PM "18's are VERY generous, specially since half of the world is be low 10"

not really, remember, when compairing the real world to d20 games d20 Modern is the way you have to do it, and in D20 modern, normal people use the Elite array.

You cant say that D&Ds 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11 commoners 10 in Int is higher than a modern 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10 smart heros 15 in Int, modern people are just overall more mentally powerful, thats why an ordinary smart hero has 11 + int mod skill point when a PC rogue only has 8 + int mod, its called school systems and a greater understanding of the world.

In Modern everyone PC and NPCs share the same classes, that also goes to show you how modern things such as IQ cant be converted into D&D worlds that way. Modern is always going to be higher becuase more people with higher Int scores are around so IQ cant equal Int x 10 for D&D.
The Vorpal Tribble
01-01-05, 01:17 AM lol, then though they are smarter the average raises. By definition half the population is below the average and the other half above it.
Willie the Duck
01-01-05, 03:06 AM Like I said, the distributions are wrong. even the rarity of rolling an 18 on 3d6 is an order of magnitude more common that 180+ IQ people really are.

For the record, the highest tested IQ was 238.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Emir 12-29-04, 11:37 AM	The other night I was at a friend's place and he's got the Savage Species. I checked the book out, and I found the Feral really interesting. Nice look, abilities and all that (Imp. Grab, Pounce, Rake, and Rend), but my DM, being himself, instantly said it's over powered. Now I ask you, is it really over powered, or should we just raise the LA ?
The Vorpal Tribble 12-29-04, 12:14 PM	In one of my games I play a feral druid, and the only thing I say thats overpowered is the Fast Healing. However, the Improved Grab, Pounce etc, I've been told it wasn't intended for players, because you can't take levels in a template or some such.
cwslyclgh 12-29-04, 04:02 PM	what makes the template not over powered is that the special abilities are specifically tied to its "monster Hit Dice", there for HD from class levels never improve your spcial attacks or fast healing etc. there for a feral human only gains the benifits of a 1 HD feral creature, no matter what level they are.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 12-29-04, 04:41 PM	And the massive hit to Int makes it damn near unplayable.
The Vorpal Tribble 12-29-04, 07:02 PM	Bah, my druid character with the template got some pretty good rolls and I gave my 16 to intelligence and so now he has a 12. A 12 isn't exactly a dummy. This is the equivalent of an I.Q. of 120, which is considered decently bright. His Wisdom, which is needed the most for Druidical spells is around 19.
ronyon 12-29-04, 07:22 PM	What are the benifits of being a one hd feral creature? What are considered " monsterous Hd"? Would levels in a racial class(paragon), or in a template(ghost,werewolf) work?
Willie the Duck 12-29-04, 07:33 PM	VT, there is no direct relation between Int score and I.Q. Even bell-curve games like GURPS don't usually declare a 10 x int = I.Q. ruling. Ronyon, monster hd are exactly that, the hd of the monster. look up the creature in the MM, see how many hd it has. That's how many monstrous hd it has. At the DM's discression, you can advance in hd as your ecl improves if the type of monster has a variable hd. otherwise, you eventually have to take PC classes, which are almost always statistically better, but don't advance your feral template abilities. Emir, Savage Species did a number on power levels. That's why 3.0 players say it is 3.5 and 3.5 players say it is 3.0. The only good thing I have to say about it is that they had an impossible task to accomplish, so they met my expectations. That said, feral is not the worst thing in there.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 12-29-04, 09:30 PM	Bah, my druid character with the template got some pretty good rolls and I gave my 16 to intelligence and so now he has a 12. A 12 isn't exactly a dummy. This is the equivalent of an I.Q. of 120, which is considered decently bright. His Wisdom, which is needed the most for Druidical spells is around 19. And the feral template managed to only grant a -4 to Int how? It's -6, IIRC.
The Vorpal Tribble 12-29-04, 10:41 PM	VT, there is no direct relation between Int score and I.Q. Even bell-curve games like GURPS don't usually declare a 10 x int = I.Q. ruling. Well it makes perfect sense. Human standard IQ is 10 in D&D, and 100 in real life. 18 is about the highest you can start out with, and in real life 180 is the upper end of genius. Anything beyond both these points is nigh world class. And the feral template managed to only grant a -4 to Int how? It's -6, IIRC. Its -4 in Savage Species, which is what I was going by. Whats IIRC?
Slagger the Chuul 12-29-04, 11:48 PM	If I Recall/Remember Correctly. Raymond_Luxury_Yacht apparently didn't. :P
Willie the Duck 12-30-04, 08:01 PM	Well it makes perfect sense. Human standard IQ is 10 in D&D, and 100 in real life. 18 is about the highest you can start out with, and in real life 180 is the upper end of genius. Anything beyond both these points is nigh world class. But the distributions don't work out, for heroes or regular 3d6 dice rolls. 180 is awefully genious, but those int 6 barbarians are alot more functional than 60 IQ people. It also makes it hard to figure out how to explain anyone with an int over 24.
The Vorpal Tribble 12-31-04, 05:25 AM	180 is awefully genious, but those int 6 barbarians are alot more functional than 60 IQ people. 6 means they are nigh retarded, but not quite. That famous TV guy who I can't remember the name of probably only has an IQ around there, but he's a millionaire. However, he still needs help with day to day life. The only reason your 6 int barbarian is able to do what he does is because he's not being roleplayed correctly. And I don't consider talking in monosylalbles and saying things like 'Tog is mad, Tog bang bang on bear head' as being an indicator of low intelligence. Apes can learn advance sign language and wolves can learn strategy, but there IQ is still animal, and so barbarians with 6 int can have cunning. However, try to ask them something abstract or philosohpical and they'll have no clue. 24+ means they are bordering superhuman. I believe there have been those with I.Q.'s that high, but its fabulously rare. 18's are VERY generous, specially since half of the world is be low 10. 10 is the average. However, they may still not be that 'smart'. Thats where the other stats come in. An Iq of 20 with a wisdom of 5 means you are an idiot savant. Can calculate faster than a supercomputer but can't be trusted to order a pizza. A strength of 18-19 is considered the world's strongest man, yet we have those who go up past it. After scores of 18 they become people that the world only sees every few generations, if not centuries. Not just record holders, but those who will almost never be matched again. Mary Lou Rettin (may be spelling it wrong..) would probably have been considered having a deterity of 19-20 or so. It wasn't until this Olympic year that her score was matched and possibly beaten. Once past 18 you are getting to those people who by a fabulous sequence of genetics, natural proclivity, and training have pushed themselves beyond what billions of others will ever achieve, or are even capable of achieving. That these kind of people came together into one party however is where fantasy kicks in ;)
TemporalEnergon 12-31-04, 04:34 PM	He has a good point and besides, a few issues back in Dragon they said that it was safe to assume a 10/1 ratio for I.Q./Int.
11d7 12-31-04, 05:47 PM	"18's are VERY generous, specially since half of the world is be low 10" not really, remember, when compairing the real world to d20 games d20 Modern is the way you have to do it, and in D20 modern, normal people use the Elite array. You cant say that D&Ds 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11 commoners 10 in Int is higher than a modern 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10 smart heros 15 in Int, modern people are just overall more mentally powerful, thats why an ordinary smart hero has 11 + int mod skill point when a PC rogue only has 8 + int mod, its called school systems and a greater understanding of the world. In Modern everyone PC and NPCs share the same classes, that also goes to show you how modern things such as IQ cant be converted into D&D worlds that way. Modern is always going to be higher becuase more people with higher Int scores are around so IQ cant equal Int x 10 for D&D.
The Vorpal Tribble 01-01-05, 01:17 AM	lol, then though they are smarter the average raises. By definition half the population is below the average and the other half above it.
Willie the Duck 01-01-05, 03:06 AM	Like I said, the distributions are wrong. even the rarity of rolling an 18 on 3d6 is an order of magnitude more common that 180+ IQ people really are. For the record, the highest tested IQ was 238.