Post/Author/DateTime	Post
crimsonsky 03-16-05, 06:41 AM	Just wondering if anyone else thinks that Keepers are underpowered for a CR 7 creature. I just don't see what makes them that tough. With AC 19 and 26 hp, most 7th level tanks I know can will kill it in one shot, maybe before it even gets an action. It's poison is decent, and it has a few useful special qualities, so sure I could see it being a CR 5, but 7? Has anyone actually used them in an encounter?
ksbsnowowl 03-16-05, 10:36 AM	Don't have my books with me, so this is from memory; and I haven't looked at keepers for quite a while: I think you are looking at a keeper the wrong way. Sure, a single keeper as a CR7 encounter is a joke. But several keepers as an EL 8-10 encounter is where the power is. They get to freely interpose themselves with one another. Place them in several adjacent rooms and use good tactics with them, and I'm pretty sure they will give your PC's fits.
crimsonsky 03-16-05, 11:10 AM	The encounter is for a 10th level party. It has a CR 12 monster and its 3 keepers, making an EL 13 encounter. Only one keeper would be in the room with the monster. The other two would be in a sealed room with lots of healing/buff items. The second keeper would ready an action to teleport in when the first keeper drops. The third keeper will buff the second then heal the first. The three keepers rotate as needed. The low AC and hp of the keepers means that the party tank could easily charge up to it, full power attack, most likely hit and kill it in one shot. Fine, I can deal with that by taking away the charge paths with terrain. Here's where it gets to be a bigger problem. An archer can rapid shot with 3 arrows. He'd likely hit with all 3 attacks for somewhere around 3d8+15 total damage. If he's smart enought to wait for the mage to haste him (which he likely is) that's 4d8+20 damage, which should also drop a keeper straight up. The arcane caster could also just blow it up. A 10th level wizard would likely have Spell Penetration, meaning he'd automatically beat the Keeper's SR 13. At that point only the keeper's resistances and/or saves would keep it anywhere near alive after the wizard's turn, though an empowered spell could also get past that. I guess what I'm saying is that a party of well designed 10th level characters should have no problem killing a keeper outright, negating the usefulness of their tactic. I think they are easily CR 5 creatures, but not really much bigger than that.
Ogre4Hire 03-16-05, 12:03 PM	There are a lot of creatures in the Fiend Folio who are quite weak for their CRs. The designers seem to have realized this and attempted to overcompensate with the powerhouses in the MM3.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-16-05, 01:57 PM	To heck with the CR, they're just fun to use. They're effectively the MIB of DnD (in the UFO lore, not the Will Smith movies). One or two it's not a problem, but when they start showing up in groups... I've used them before *points to storyhour link* If you want more detail about them, take a look at their original entry in the Planescape Monstrous Compendium II.