Fiendish Creatures speak.... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fiendish Creatures speak.... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TygerTyger
03-16-07, 12:47 PM Okay, if you have the appropriate language, you can direct your critters summoned via a Summon Monster spell. Its pretty obvious that the Celestial templated critters speak, well, Celestial. But do the Fiendish templated ones speak Abyssal or Infernal?

This may be really obvious, but I've been out of the D&D loop for a decade or more. Still trying to get my feet under me, so to speak.
Narris
03-16-07, 12:58 PM demons: abyssal
devils:infernal
TygerTyger
03-16-07, 01:09 PM Yes. That part is obvious. But what about a Fiendish Dire Ape? Neither demon nor devil...
Ebonyte
03-16-07, 01:22 PM I would say this depends on the alignment of the summoner. A lawful summoner will summon Devils, a Chaotic one Demons. For all practical purposes, the rules for a devil rat and a demon rat are the same, but for your own purposes, I would say that the Hells would have little to do with a chaotic soul, as the Abyss would not heed the calls of an orderly individual.

Then again, I would think that the being summoned woud speak whatever languge it's sumoner speaks, but that's the purview of house rules.

Hope that helps.
TygerTyger
03-16-07, 01:32 PM Good suggestions. Though seeing that a caster of any alignment (arcane caster that is) can summon specific demons or devils, that throws another monkey wrench into the works.
Silversheen197
03-16-07, 01:35 PM Every monster on the summon lists has a given alignment. If they are CE, they speak Abyssal, and if they're LE, they speak Infernal. If they're NE...um...They speak German :confused:
Ebonyte
03-16-07, 01:37 PM Well, depending on the DM, some may forbid a good character from summoing evil beings, though personally I can see the benefit (then again I'm a little flexible, morally). If you're sumoning a specfic demon or devil, it stands to reason that the ritual's activation words would be in Infernal or Abyssal. Also, remember that some intelligent fiends (can't remember which, specifically... no MM on me) have telepathy and can communicate with creatures that way. You COULD house rule that the summoned critter initiates telepathic contact with it's summoner. Also, consider that it would be foolish to summon a creature you can't command.
TygerTyger
03-16-07, 02:00 PM Well, the Summon Monster line of spells states quite clearly that

FROM THE SRD
This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

Emphasis is mine.

Therefore its presumed that there may be creatures that you can not communicate with, due to language difficulties or some other reason.

And yes, some DMs may prohibit the summoning of opposition alignment creatures, but there's no RAW for that, at least for Wizards. Thus far our GM has allowed it.

Something tells me this may just be a GMs discretion thing. I had hoped that maybe there was a rule out there that I was missing, but it doesn't look like it.

Its relevant because I am picking up two languages, Celestial (for speaking to the Celestial Templated summoned critters) and one other, either Abyssal or Infernal... just trying to figure out which.
Ebonyte
03-16-07, 02:09 PM I would go by your own alignment axis, lawful or chaotic, but it's really up to you. That's the best part of the rules: how flexible they are, and the ability to house anything you don't like. I play fast and easy. I like concepts better than laws.
cwslyclgh
03-16-07, 03:10 PM if the critter is CE abyssal, if it is LE infernal, if it is NE, and the creature doesn't have a language listed in the MM, then I would allow both abyssal and infernal to work, but then I am generous.
ArcTan
03-16-07, 03:16 PM Er, no. Check the Fiendish template. It doesn't grant any languages at all. If the base monster doesn't have any languages -- i.e. it's an animal -- then the fiendish version doesn't either.

Celestial templated creatures speak nothing. Fiendish templated creatures speak nothing. You cannot direct them with language any more than you could an ordinary animal. When they appear, they just attack your opponents and keep on fighting anyone hostile to you (they can determine that, since both templates grant Int 3) until the spell wears off.
Thiez
03-16-07, 03:18 PM Every monster on the summon lists has a given alignment. If they are CE, they speak Abyssal, and if they're LE, they speak Infernal. If they're NE...um...They speak German :confused:

Quoted For Truth! :D
ArcTan
03-16-07, 03:19 PM I would say this depends on the alignment of the summoner. A lawful summoner will summon Devils, a Chaotic one Demons. For all practical purposes, the rules for a devil rat and a demon rat are the same, but for your own purposes, I would say that the Hells would have little to do with a chaotic soul, as the Abyss would not heed the calls of an orderly individual.

This is untrue. There is no such thing as a "demon rat" or a "devil rat". Fiendish animals are *fiendish*, and are all of a kind. And the majority of them come from Hades or the adjoining planes like Gehenna (Neutral Evil), not from the Abyss or Baator, just as most celestial animals will come from the Beastlands or Elysium, not from Celestia or Arborea.

The alignment of the summoner has nothing to do with it. Baator may hate Chaos and the Abyss may hate Law, but all the Lower Planes surely hate Good, and yet an NG Wizard can easily conjure forth a fiendish monstrous centipede if he wants. It's an Evil *act* to do so, yes, but only a mild one. The rules merely say that the spell gains the descriptor of the alignment of the creature you're summoning -- all this means is that a Cleric couldn't summon a creature against his deity's alignment, and if a Paladin should somehow get his hands on a scroll of summon monster I he couldn't summon the fiendish centipede without breaking his code. But that's it. Nothing prevents a Good spellcaster from regularly summoning Evil creatures and slowly being corrupted by Evil as she does so.

Then again, I would think that the being summoned woud speak whatever languge it's sumoner speaks, but that's the purview of house rules.

It *is* a house rule, and one I wouldn't use. The privilege of being able to command summoned monsters is one of the big things you get for summoning higher-level monsters with language.
TygerTyger
03-16-07, 03:20 PM Er, no. Check the Fiendish template. It doesn't grant any languages at all. If the base monster doesn't have any languages -- i.e. it's an animal -- then the fiendish version doesn't either.

Celestial templated creatures speak nothing. Fiendish templated creatures speak nothing. You cannot direct them with language any more than you could an ordinary animal. When they appear, they just attack your opponents and keep on fighting anyone hostile to you (they can determine that, since both templates grant Int 3) until the spell wears off.

Except that any critter with INT of 3 or more has a language. Both Fiendish and Celestial templates cause the critter to become intelligent, with an INT score of 3.
cwslyclgh
03-16-07, 03:23 PM Er, no. Check the Fiendish template. It doesn't grant any languages at all. If the base monster doesn't have any languages -- i.e. it's an animal -- then the fiendish version doesn't either.perhaps speak is the wrong twerm, but a celestial or fiendish creature defintaly understands a language.

Intelligence: A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise).

the celestial and fiendish templates raise INT to 3 if it is less then that.
ArcTan
03-16-07, 03:24 PM Every monster on the summon lists has a given alignment. If they are CE, they speak Abyssal, and if they're LE, they speak Infernal. If they're NE...um...They speak German :confused:

The fiendish template grants Evil (any). All animals start out as True Neutral. Therefore the majority of fiendish animals are probably NE German speakers.

Except they're not. You get a language based on the *Language* line in your stat block, *not* the Alignment line. You can be the Lawful Evil-est rat in Baator but you still won't speak Infernal, because RATS DON'T TALK.
ArcTan
03-16-07, 03:25 PM perhaps speak is the wrong twerm, but a celestial or fiendish creature defintaly understands a language.

the celestial and fiendish templates raise INT to 3 if it is less then that.

*shrug* Okay. If you want to rule that way, since there is no "noted otherwise", the animals speak Common.

Since, as the OP noted, the rules *do* presume there will be summons you can't communicate with, and every summon has Int 3 or more, I don't actually like enforcing the "Int 3 means you get a language" rule. It introduces all kinds of contradictions.
TygerTyger
03-16-07, 03:27 PM That's actually a good point on the Common... just didn't seem appropriate that the critter from the "lower planes" would speak Common as their base language...

Running it by the DM as we speak, we'll see what he rules.
ArcTan
03-16-07, 03:34 PM FWIW, demons and devils who speak to mortals tend to have the Common tongue.

If you have to give them a language, it might make sense to say NE have Common and CE and LE have Abyssal and Infernal, which I sort of like because it adds color and prevents you from being able to communicate to all fiendish animals by default. I still prefer glossing over that.
Silversheen197
03-16-07, 04:38 PM The fiendish template grants Evil (any). All animals start out as True Neutral. Therefore the majority of fiendish animals are probably NE German speakers.

Except they're not. You get a language based on the *Language* line in your stat block, *not* the Alignment line. You can be the Lawful Evil-est rat in Baator but you still won't speak Infernal, because RATS DON'T TALK.

Take a look at the Summon Monster tables. You should notice that every single creature, even the templated animals, have a given alignment.

And of course rats don't talk. But, as I believe someone else here mentioned, and Int of 3 or higher can understand a language. I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to assume that an intelligent rat could, while not able to speak, at least understand a language.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TygerTyger 03-16-07, 12:47 PM	Okay, if you have the appropriate language, you can direct your critters summoned via a Summon Monster spell. Its pretty obvious that the Celestial templated critters speak, well, Celestial. But do the Fiendish templated ones speak Abyssal or Infernal? This may be really obvious, but I've been out of the D&D loop for a decade or more. Still trying to get my feet under me, so to speak.
Narris 03-16-07, 12:58 PM	demons: abyssal devils:infernal
TygerTyger 03-16-07, 01:09 PM	Yes. That part is obvious. But what about a Fiendish Dire Ape? Neither demon nor devil...
Ebonyte 03-16-07, 01:22 PM	I would say this depends on the alignment of the summoner. A lawful summoner will summon Devils, a Chaotic one Demons. For all practical purposes, the rules for a devil rat and a demon rat are the same, but for your own purposes, I would say that the Hells would have little to do with a chaotic soul, as the Abyss would not heed the calls of an orderly individual. Then again, I would think that the being summoned woud speak whatever languge it's sumoner speaks, but that's the purview of house rules. Hope that helps.
TygerTyger 03-16-07, 01:32 PM	Good suggestions. Though seeing that a caster of any alignment (arcane caster that is) can summon specific demons or devils, that throws another monkey wrench into the works.
Silversheen197 03-16-07, 01:35 PM	Every monster on the summon lists has a given alignment. If they are CE, they speak Abyssal, and if they're LE, they speak Infernal. If they're NE...um...They speak German :confused:
Ebonyte 03-16-07, 01:37 PM	Well, depending on the DM, some may forbid a good character from summoing evil beings, though personally I can see the benefit (then again I'm a little flexible, morally). If you're sumoning a specfic demon or devil, it stands to reason that the ritual's activation words would be in Infernal or Abyssal. Also, remember that some intelligent fiends (can't remember which, specifically... no MM on me) have telepathy and can communicate with creatures that way. You COULD house rule that the summoned critter initiates telepathic contact with it's summoner. Also, consider that it would be foolish to summon a creature you can't command.
TygerTyger 03-16-07, 02:00 PM	Well, the Summon Monster line of spells states quite clearly that FROM THE SRD This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. Emphasis is mine. Therefore its presumed that there may be creatures that you can not communicate with, due to language difficulties or some other reason. And yes, some DMs may prohibit the summoning of opposition alignment creatures, but there's no RAW for that, at least for Wizards. Thus far our GM has allowed it. Something tells me this may just be a GMs discretion thing. I had hoped that maybe there was a rule out there that I was missing, but it doesn't look like it. Its relevant because I am picking up two languages, Celestial (for speaking to the Celestial Templated summoned critters) and one other, either Abyssal or Infernal... just trying to figure out which.
Ebonyte 03-16-07, 02:09 PM	I would go by your own alignment axis, lawful or chaotic, but it's really up to you. That's the best part of the rules: how flexible they are, and the ability to house anything you don't like. I play fast and easy. I like concepts better than laws.
cwslyclgh 03-16-07, 03:10 PM	if the critter is CE abyssal, if it is LE infernal, if it is NE, and the creature doesn't have a language listed in the MM, then I would allow both abyssal and infernal to work, but then I am generous.
ArcTan 03-16-07, 03:16 PM	Er, no. Check the Fiendish template. It doesn't grant any languages at all. If the base monster doesn't have any languages -- i.e. it's an animal -- then the fiendish version doesn't either. Celestial templated creatures speak nothing. Fiendish templated creatures speak nothing. You cannot direct them with language any more than you could an ordinary animal. When they appear, they just attack your opponents and keep on fighting anyone hostile to you (they can determine that, since both templates grant Int 3) until the spell wears off.
Thiez 03-16-07, 03:18 PM	Every monster on the summon lists has a given alignment. If they are CE, they speak Abyssal, and if they're LE, they speak Infernal. If they're NE...um...They speak German :confused: Quoted For Truth! :D
ArcTan 03-16-07, 03:19 PM	I would say this depends on the alignment of the summoner. A lawful summoner will summon Devils, a Chaotic one Demons. For all practical purposes, the rules for a devil rat and a demon rat are the same, but for your own purposes, I would say that the Hells would have little to do with a chaotic soul, as the Abyss would not heed the calls of an orderly individual. This is untrue. There is no such thing as a "demon rat" or a "devil rat". Fiendish animals are fiendish, and are all of a kind. And the majority of them come from Hades or the adjoining planes like Gehenna (Neutral Evil), not from the Abyss or Baator, just as most celestial animals will come from the Beastlands or Elysium, not from Celestia or Arborea. The alignment of the summoner has nothing to do with it. Baator may hate Chaos and the Abyss may hate Law, but all the Lower Planes surely hate Good, and yet an NG Wizard can easily conjure forth a fiendish monstrous centipede if he wants. It's an Evil act to do so, yes, but only a mild one. The rules merely say that the spell gains the descriptor of the alignment of the creature you're summoning -- all this means is that a Cleric couldn't summon a creature against his deity's alignment, and if a Paladin should somehow get his hands on a scroll of summon monster I he couldn't summon the fiendish centipede without breaking his code. But that's it. Nothing prevents a Good spellcaster from regularly summoning Evil creatures and slowly being corrupted by Evil as she does so. Then again, I would think that the being summoned woud speak whatever languge it's sumoner speaks, but that's the purview of house rules. It is a house rule, and one I wouldn't use. The privilege of being able to command summoned monsters is one of the big things you get for summoning higher-level monsters with language.
TygerTyger 03-16-07, 03:20 PM	Er, no. Check the Fiendish template. It doesn't grant any languages at all. If the base monster doesn't have any languages -- i.e. it's an animal -- then the fiendish version doesn't either. Celestial templated creatures speak nothing. Fiendish templated creatures speak nothing. You cannot direct them with language any more than you could an ordinary animal. When they appear, they just attack your opponents and keep on fighting anyone hostile to you (they can determine that, since both templates grant Int 3) until the spell wears off. Except that any critter with INT of 3 or more has a language. Both Fiendish and Celestial templates cause the critter to become intelligent, with an INT score of 3.
cwslyclgh 03-16-07, 03:23 PM	Er, no. Check the Fiendish template. It doesn't grant any languages at all. If the base monster doesn't have any languages -- i.e. it's an animal -- then the fiendish version doesn't either.perhaps speak is the wrong twerm, but a celestial or fiendish creature defintaly understands a language. Intelligence: A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise). the celestial and fiendish templates raise INT to 3 if it is less then that.
ArcTan 03-16-07, 03:24 PM	Every monster on the summon lists has a given alignment. If they are CE, they speak Abyssal, and if they're LE, they speak Infernal. If they're NE...um...They speak German :confused: The fiendish template grants Evil (any). All animals start out as True Neutral. Therefore the majority of fiendish animals are probably NE German speakers. Except they're not. You get a language based on the Language line in your stat block, not the Alignment line. You can be the Lawful Evil-est rat in Baator but you still won't speak Infernal, because RATS DON'T TALK.
ArcTan 03-16-07, 03:25 PM	perhaps speak is the wrong twerm, but a celestial or fiendish creature defintaly understands a language. the celestial and fiendish templates raise INT to 3 if it is less then that. shrug Okay. If you want to rule that way, since there is no "noted otherwise", the animals speak Common. Since, as the OP noted, the rules do presume there will be summons you can't communicate with, and every summon has Int 3 or more, I don't actually like enforcing the "Int 3 means you get a language" rule. It introduces all kinds of contradictions.
TygerTyger 03-16-07, 03:27 PM	That's actually a good point on the Common... just didn't seem appropriate that the critter from the "lower planes" would speak Common as their base language... Running it by the DM as we speak, we'll see what he rules.
ArcTan 03-16-07, 03:34 PM	FWIW, demons and devils who speak to mortals tend to have the Common tongue. If you have to give them a language, it might make sense to say NE have Common and CE and LE have Abyssal and Infernal, which I sort of like because it adds color and prevents you from being able to communicate to all fiendish animals by default. I still prefer glossing over that.
Silversheen197 03-16-07, 04:38 PM	The fiendish template grants Evil (any). All animals start out as True Neutral. Therefore the majority of fiendish animals are probably NE German speakers. Except they're not. You get a language based on the Language line in your stat block, not the Alignment line. You can be the Lawful Evil-est rat in Baator but you still won't speak Infernal, because RATS DON'T TALK. Take a look at the Summon Monster tables. You should notice that every single creature, even the templated animals, have a given alignment. And of course rats don't talk. But, as I believe someone else here mentioned, and Int of 3 or higher can understand a language. I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to assume that an intelligent rat could, while not able to speak, at least understand a language.