Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KangTheCallipygian 06-16-05, 02:44 PM	A question about fiendish monstrous centipedes and charms, compulsions, etc.: This is one of the Vermin Traits:Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).A fiendish monstrous centipede's type changes from Vermin to Magical Beast, but the entry for fiendish creatures specifies that it keeps all the base creature's special qualities (which is where "vermin traits" appears in the description of a medium monstrous centipede). The fiendish creatures entry also says they get an intelligence of at least 3. Should the immunities associated with the mindless trait be removed? The mindless trait altogether? Or should the minimum Int of 3 simply be the exception to the "no intelligence score" rule for mindless creatures? I'm leaning toward just dropping the mindless trait because it just seems to make the most sense. Wondering if anyone knows the "official" answer. Thanks, Kang
KangTheCallipygian 06-20-05, 08:29 AM	:bump: Anyone?
KangTheCallipygian 06-23-05, 02:43 PM	:bump: Well, they say the third time's the "charm"... I'm sinking perilously close to page 4 here and it's been well over 48 hours since my first bump, so here goes nothin': At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'll put my question in more general terms in case the lack of response is because my OP was somehow unclear... Somebody out there must have run across this before! Where a template calls for the base creature to keep all of its special qualities, but one of those qualities seems to be incompatible with one of the other effects of adding the template, which takes precedence? Specifically, fiendish medium monstrous centipedes - Following the steps in "Creating a Fiendish Creature", they've got both the Fiendish template (including a minimum Int of 3) and Vermin Traits (including "Mindless" - no Int score, immunity to charms, etc.). I lean toward thinking the minimum Int score trumps the Mindless trait, despite the fact that fiendish creatures are supposed to retain the base creature's special qualities. Looking for a little confirmation or refutation here - can a fiendish medium monstrous centipede be charmed? Someone please reply - bumping just makes me feel dirty all over. Thanks, Kang
Sildatorak 06-23-05, 03:06 PM	I believe that monsters with intelligence scores cannot be mindless. I don't know if it says that anywhere in the books, but I don't think it makes a lot of difference. Most people's reaction to monstrous vermin (fiendish or otherwise) is either kill or run and hardly ever charm it.
KangTheCallipygian 06-23-05, 04:28 PM	Much appreciated, Sildatorak. That sounds entirely logical to me - both the 'intelligence and mindlessness are mutually exclusive' part and how people in combat don't often try to charm the monsters summoned by their enemies. In fact, that's how I've plan on ruling too if it comes up, until and unless someone offers an official ruling. I feel there could be some practical applications where this call could matter though; Mindless provides immunities not just to charms, but to compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects as well (I left the rest of those out of post #3 merely to save a few keystrokes). It's conceivable the PC's might try one of those - spells intended to affect the summoner but that are capable of affecting more than one creature, for instance... Pretty much every evil caster I've seen used in play who casts Summon Monster 1, for instance, uses it to summon fiendish centipedes or fiendish scorpions, so this is bound to come up eventually in one form or another. I'm also wondering if there is anything like the official errata documents' "primary source" rule that covers this but that I've overlooked - ie. a general rule for prioritizing these sorts of conflicting rules when all else fails. I'm concerned about questions like, "if such a general rule does in fact exist and I overlooked it, what else might I be missing?" To me these are valid concerns; you're probably right that it doesn't make "a lot" of difference, but IMO it makes enough that it's worth asking about... I suspect you're right though; I'd be surprised to see an official ruling on this that didn't agree with yours. Thanks again for your thoughts, Kang
Amadan 06-23-05, 04:52 PM	Keep the Mindless trait, drop the Int 3
KangTheCallipygian 06-27-05, 08:37 AM	Is that official, Amadan? I was leaning toward doing just the opposite (keep Int 3, drop mindless)... I can certainly see how this method could work out OK - 'fiendish' wouldn't add a weakness to vermin by making them susceptible to charms etc. - but I'm curious as to how you came up with it. If you've got an official source, I'd very much appreciate a reference to it; if it's a houserule, I'd be equally interested in knowing the reasons behind it. Thanks for the input either way, Kang
Wolf72 06-27-05, 09:41 AM	bah, just give it both ... mindless and int 3 ... and try to scare your players a bit :D *wolf is thinking of a fiendish large monstrous spider-webspinner*
The Abominable Darkling 06-27-05, 09:53 AM	If you've got an official source, I'd very much appreciate a reference to it; if it's a houserule, I'd be equally interested in knowing the reasons behind it. There is no official source for this. However, I think you should leave the fiendish vermin's intelligence as undefined. The rules are very clear that a nonability is not equivalent to an ability score of 0.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-27-05, 10:29 AM	There is no official source for this. However, I think you should leave the fiendish vermin's intelligence as undefined. The rules are very clear that a nonability is not equivalent to an ability score of 0. WotC did a Fiendish creature with a nonablility in Intelligence, an ooze, and it gained 3 Int and lost the Mindless quality.
KangTheCallipygian 06-27-05, 02:02 PM	Aha! An official precedent... Thanks a million, Ray. The fact it agrees with my 'until and unless someone offers an official ruling' backup is just gravy. BTW, where can I find this fiendish ooze? Thanks again, Kang
Sildatorak 06-27-05, 09:25 PM	A thought occurs to me. Bumping it to int 3 and tagging "immune to mind-affecting abilities" would basically be the same as int 3 & mindless.
KangTheCallipygian 06-28-05, 04:40 PM	A thought occurs to me. Bumping it to int 3 and tagging "immune to mind-affecting abilities" would basically be the same as int 3 & mindless.Sure; that's basically what I was getting at when I asked, "Or should the minimum Int of 3 simply be the exception to the 'no intelligence score' rule for mindless creatures?" above, though I must admit your way of wording it was a little clearer. I'm happy enough just dropping Mindless though, since this apparently agrees with the way WotC statted out another normally-mindless fiendish creature (the ooze Raymond_Luxury_Yacht mentioned above, though I still haven't found it to have a look for myself). In any case, as you pointed out above, it's probably not going to make a huge difference in most cases anyhow. But I do agree that at the very least, this option would make a decent middle-of-the-road/best-of-both-worlds solution... Thanks again, Kang