Fight CR? [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Fight CR? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DragoneyeIIVX
11-26-07, 10:24 AM I'm making a custom creature that'll basically be a 'blood elemental' and I'm curious what you all think the CR of this thing will be. (If any of you own the Heroes of Horror book, it's a taint elemental with it's taint-abilities removed and some of the Bloodrot's abilities put in)

Elder Blood Elemental -
HP: 252 (24 hd)
Init: +6
Speed: 40 (8 squares), Climb 10 ft.
AC: 27, (Touch: 14, Flat-f: 17)
BaB/Grapple: +18/+35
Attack: Slam +27 melee (2d10+13)
Full Attack: 2 Slam +27 melee (2d10+13)
Space/Reach: 15 ft/15 ft
Special Attacks: Blood Fever
Special Qualities: Damage Reduction 10/-, Darkvision 60 ft. Dimension Door, Elemental Traits, Split
Saves: Fort +20, Ref +16, Will +12
Skills: Hide +25, Listen +29, Move Silently +33, Spot +29, Survival +29
Great Cleave,Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Iron Will, Lightning reflexes, Power Attack

--
Blood Fever – Supernatural Disease – (physical contact) DC 17 Fort save. Every minute is 1d6 con damage and 1d4 cha damage. Doesn't heal until either death or curing. To cure, break enchantment or remove curse must be cast before it can be cured normally.
Split – If damaged by piercing or slashing weapons, the elemental splits into two identical elementals, halving it's hp between the two and taking no damage. This doesn't work if the elemental has less than 10 hp.
Dimension Door – 3 times per day a Blood Elemental can use D-door, but only to the point of it's creation. (In the case of my campaign, in the same room of the fight)

Aiming for CR: 14 (How do you do that 'spoiler' thing?)

So any advice on bringing it around that number would be great. Thanks in advance.
NyMpHoMaNiAc_FaNtAsIA
11-26-07, 01:18 PM You may find this (http://64.223.12.31/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20030314a) very useful.
Don't forget about the Blood Elementals (http://64.223.12.31/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20030208a)!

Hope it helps.
Gnarl
11-26-07, 02:02 PM Aiming for CR: 14 (How do you do that 'spoiler' thing?)

So any advice on bringing it around that number would be great. Thanks in advance.

CR 12 - 14 seems about right IMHO. 14 is maybe a bit high for the critter though.

Simple question, why is the Fortitude save DC only 17 by the way? Shouldn't it be 10 + 1/2 HD + some ability modifier (CHA)?
DragoneyeIIVX
11-26-07, 02:08 PM Oh, that's perfect. Much thanks.

In the HoH book, blood fever is 15 + cha modifier. It does have 10 HD, though, so that makes sense. I took at look at mummy rot (almost identical effect) and that one seems to be based of HD also.

So you'd suggest an edit to the first DC, making it 24? That seems really high to me (to the point where it'd almost be an assured death) but I've rarely played a game higher than 10 so I don't know much about that level of play (which is why I come here).
Gnarl
11-26-07, 04:06 PM So you'd suggest an edit to the first DC, making it 24? That seems really high to me (to the point where it'd almost be an assured death) but I've rarely played a game higher than 10 so I don't know much about that level of play (which is why I come here).

DC 24 for a CR 14 is what other CR 14 critters have. Check out the young adult silver dragon or the gelugon's DC.

I would certainly make it 24. And honestly, if your PCs don't plan for these kind of things by level 10-14, they're supposed to have at least one dead among their ranks.
DragoneyeIIVX
11-26-07, 11:12 PM Works for me, thanks. I'm aiming at making this a 13, maybe 14 at worst, level encounter. So what you've said is perfect.
Talisman
11-26-07, 11:47 PM (How do you do that 'spoiler' thing?)

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DragoneyeIIVX
11-27-07, 10:46 AM Woot?
SupaTalka
11-27-07, 12:07 PM I really feel like the CR needs to be 14 or higher.

Imagine something like this:

Your fighter type wins initiative and like is typical of melee, he charges in with his greatsword. Look, he just took an AoO! Look, he just split it in half!

Now there are two monsters with +27 melee hits with 15ft reach.

They can easily dump half their hit mod into Power Attack, and score 3 or even 4 hits on a charger. 3 hits coming in at 2d10+26 each? 6d10+78? 111 average damage. If you consider the AoO, which probably hit, that would be another 24.

135 hp is quite a bit in 1 round. If every swing came in on that round, they would most certainly be dead, in 1 round, possibly dead already considering their con might be only 14-16, they might have rolled low HP scores for their level, they might already have damage coming into the encounter (etc etc.)

Granted, I know that stupid PC actions should be rewarded with death, but I'm just saying that death in 1 round could very easily happen considering the base damage of the monster if it splits. It's not a save or die effect, this is just through melee damage.

135hp is average damage, not maximum, and without a crit.

With reach and Dimension Door, any melee will have a hard time in this encounter. Given that most of the melee weapons are slashing/piercing, you almost certainly will be facing 2 of these monsters, both able to DD with huge reach.

It really depends on your group.

If you're melee heavy or even moderate melee, using slashing/piercing weapons this will be a tough encounter. Same if you have any kind of archer character, they will just make the situation exponentially worse.

If you're all arcane spell casters I guess the encounter would be pretty much a joke.
DragoneyeIIVX
11-27-07, 12:34 PM If you're all arcane spell casters I guess the encounter would be pretty much a joke.

Always seems like that, doesn't it >.< (just kidding, sortof)

In any case, I still need to get my group to finalize their characters, we aren't playing for a while so what you've said is very helpful. If the group happens to be mostly caster-types, do you think it would be reasonable to substitute the 'split' ability for a nasty SR? (What would be the calculation for figuring out an SR, like how there was with Blood Fever)

When I DM I rarely work in exp, so the exact level of the encounter doesn't matter too terribly much for me, I'm mainly looking for something that would challenge them. (They are level 14, and these things will be coming at them 1 at a time. They'll keep coming, up to a max of 6, if they don't follow obvious hints to get them to stop)
Talisman
11-27-07, 01:24 PM (What would be the calculation for figuring out an SR, like how there was with Blood Fever)

The usual method is 11 + CR, giving casters of the appropriate level a 50/50 chance to overcome SR (ignoring things like Spell Penetration, etc).

For "nasty" SR, you might bump it up to 13 + CR, or (possibly) even 15 + CR, though I wouldn't do that last one unless the monster's schtick is "heavily resistant to magic" or the PC casters are of noticeably higher level than the monster's CR.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DragoneyeIIVX 11-26-07, 10:24 AM	I'm making a custom creature that'll basically be a 'blood elemental' and I'm curious what you all think the CR of this thing will be. (If any of you own the Heroes of Horror book, it's a taint elemental with it's taint-abilities removed and some of the Bloodrot's abilities put in) Elder Blood Elemental - HP: 252 (24 hd) Init: +6 Speed: 40 (8 squares), Climb 10 ft. AC: 27, (Touch: 14, Flat-f: 17) BaB/Grapple: +18/+35 Attack: Slam +27 melee (2d10+13) Full Attack: 2 Slam +27 melee (2d10+13) Space/Reach: 15 ft/15 ft Special Attacks: Blood Fever Special Qualities: Damage Reduction 10/-, Darkvision 60 ft. Dimension Door, Elemental Traits, Split Saves: Fort +20, Ref +16, Will +12 Skills: Hide +25, Listen +29, Move Silently +33, Spot +29, Survival +29 Great Cleave,Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Iron Will, Lightning reflexes, Power Attack -- Blood Fever – Supernatural Disease – (physical contact) DC 17 Fort save. Every minute is 1d6 con damage and 1d4 cha damage. Doesn't heal until either death or curing. To cure, break enchantment or remove curse must be cast before it can be cured normally. Split – If damaged by piercing or slashing weapons, the elemental splits into two identical elementals, halving it's hp between the two and taking no damage. This doesn't work if the elemental has less than 10 hp. Dimension Door – 3 times per day a Blood Elemental can use D-door, but only to the point of it's creation. (In the case of my campaign, in the same room of the fight) Aiming for CR: 14 (How do you do that 'spoiler' thing?) So any advice on bringing it around that number would be great. Thanks in advance.
NyMpHoMaNiAc_FaNtAsIA 11-26-07, 01:18 PM	You may find this (http://64.223.12.31/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20030314a) very useful. Don't forget about the Blood Elementals (http://64.223.12.31/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20030208a)! Hope it helps.
Gnarl 11-26-07, 02:02 PM	Aiming for CR: 14 (How do you do that 'spoiler' thing?) So any advice on bringing it around that number would be great. Thanks in advance. CR 12 - 14 seems about right IMHO. 14 is maybe a bit high for the critter though. Simple question, why is the Fortitude save DC only 17 by the way? Shouldn't it be 10 + 1/2 HD + some ability modifier (CHA)?
DragoneyeIIVX 11-26-07, 02:08 PM	Oh, that's perfect. Much thanks. In the HoH book, blood fever is 15 + cha modifier. It does have 10 HD, though, so that makes sense. I took at look at mummy rot (almost identical effect) and that one seems to be based of HD also. So you'd suggest an edit to the first DC, making it 24? That seems really high to me (to the point where it'd almost be an assured death) but I've rarely played a game higher than 10 so I don't know much about that level of play (which is why I come here).
Gnarl 11-26-07, 04:06 PM	So you'd suggest an edit to the first DC, making it 24? That seems really high to me (to the point where it'd almost be an assured death) but I've rarely played a game higher than 10 so I don't know much about that level of play (which is why I come here). DC 24 for a CR 14 is what other CR 14 critters have. Check out the young adult silver dragon or the gelugon's DC. I would certainly make it 24. And honestly, if your PCs don't plan for these kind of things by level 10-14, they're supposed to have at least one dead among their ranks.
DragoneyeIIVX 11-26-07, 11:12 PM	Works for me, thanks. I'm aiming at making this a 13, maybe 14 at worst, level encounter. So what you've said is perfect.
Talisman 11-26-07, 11:47 PM	(How do you do that 'spoiler' thing?) (sblock=insert title here)Text and images to be hidden here(/sblock). Replace parentheses () with brackets []
DragoneyeIIVX 11-27-07, 10:46 AM	Woot?
SupaTalka 11-27-07, 12:07 PM	I really feel like the CR needs to be 14 or higher. Imagine something like this: Your fighter type wins initiative and like is typical of melee, he charges in with his greatsword. Look, he just took an AoO! Look, he just split it in half! Now there are two monsters with +27 melee hits with 15ft reach. They can easily dump half their hit mod into Power Attack, and score 3 or even 4 hits on a charger. 3 hits coming in at 2d10+26 each? 6d10+78? 111 average damage. If you consider the AoO, which probably hit, that would be another 24. 135 hp is quite a bit in 1 round. If every swing came in on that round, they would most certainly be dead, in 1 round, possibly dead already considering their con might be only 14-16, they might have rolled low HP scores for their level, they might already have damage coming into the encounter (etc etc.) Granted, I know that stupid PC actions should be rewarded with death, but I'm just saying that death in 1 round could very easily happen considering the base damage of the monster if it splits. It's not a save or die effect, this is just through melee damage. 135hp is average damage, not maximum, and without a crit. With reach and Dimension Door, any melee will have a hard time in this encounter. Given that most of the melee weapons are slashing/piercing, you almost certainly will be facing 2 of these monsters, both able to DD with huge reach. It really depends on your group. If you're melee heavy or even moderate melee, using slashing/piercing weapons this will be a tough encounter. Same if you have any kind of archer character, they will just make the situation exponentially worse. If you're all arcane spell casters I guess the encounter would be pretty much a joke.
DragoneyeIIVX 11-27-07, 12:34 PM	If you're all arcane spell casters I guess the encounter would be pretty much a joke. Always seems like that, doesn't it >.< (just kidding, sortof) In any case, I still need to get my group to finalize their characters, we aren't playing for a while so what you've said is very helpful. If the group happens to be mostly caster-types, do you think it would be reasonable to substitute the 'split' ability for a nasty SR? (What would be the calculation for figuring out an SR, like how there was with Blood Fever) When I DM I rarely work in exp, so the exact level of the encounter doesn't matter too terribly much for me, I'm mainly looking for something that would challenge them. (They are level 14, and these things will be coming at them 1 at a time. They'll keep coming, up to a max of 6, if they don't follow obvious hints to get them to stop)
Talisman 11-27-07, 01:24 PM	(What would be the calculation for figuring out an SR, like how there was with Blood Fever) The usual method is 11 + CR, giving casters of the appropriate level a 50/50 chance to overcome SR (ignoring things like Spell Penetration, etc). For "nasty" SR, you might bump it up to 13 + CR, or (possibly) even 15 + CR, though I wouldn't do that last one unless the monster's schtick is "heavily resistant to magic" or the PC casters are of noticeably higher level than the monster's CR.