Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Harzerkatze 09-11-03, 05:39 AM	While I like most of the changes 3.5 introduced, the grapple rules aren't among them. That is mainly because monsters are so bad a grappling now. One example: Let's say you face a giant squid. The monster hammers down on you with it's 10 tentacle attacks. What do you do? Well, start a grapple, of course! Because then, the giant squid can only either attack you with ONE of it's tentacles, or grapple you, which does damage like being hit with two tentacles. The other tentacles can do nothing. Now it can either put all it's energy in hurting you this way and be hacked apart in the meantime by your collegues which stayed out of the grapple. Or it tries to battle them too with it's other tentacles, but then it incurs the -20 grapple check penalty which probably means you can just pin the giant squid. May sound strange, but it's true: The more arms a monster has, the better you are off to grapple it, for all the arms do nothing for it in a grapple, but give it extra attack outside of it. One attack or one grapple check, unmodified by number of arms. The optinal but logical rule from S&F saying you get a +4 per set of arms hasn't made it into 3.5. Neither did monsters keep their attack routine in a grapple: They can either claw at you or bite at you, but not both, and if they claw at you, they only use one claw... Another grapple rule which makes no sense: When you pinned an opponent, you can move him as a standart action. That would have been a nice rule, only that a pin only lasts for one round and is an attack action. Since it is impossible to have more than one standart action per round, you cannot pin someone and then use a standart action to move him before your pin is over again. Haste might help, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the intend. The rule is just plain wrong.
d_nychus 09-11-03, 06:21 AM	Originally posted by Harzerkatze While I like most of the changes 3.5 introduced, the grapple rules aren't among them. That is mainly because monsters are so bad a grappling now. One example: Let's say you face a giant squid. The monster hammers down on you with it's 10 tentacle attacks. What do you do? Well, start a grapple, of course! Because then, the giant squid can only either attack you with ONE of it's tentacles, or grapple you, which does damage like being hit with two tentacles. The other tentacles can do nothing. No idea where you are getting that "ONE" from. A giant squid gets 10 grapple check from its ten arms, each doing 2d6+16 points of damage per successful grapple check. Multiple attacks means multiple grappling attempts. Grappling a giant squid is a good way to get killed. Originally posted by Harzerkatze Now it can either put all it's energy in hurting you this way and be hacked apart in the meantime by your collegues which stayed out of the grapple. Or it tries to battle them too with it's other tentacles, but then it incurs the -20 grapple check penalty which probably means you can just pin the giant squid. It can take a -20 to its grapple check with you, leaving a +9 to grapple, and can then make up to 10 attacks Originally posted by Harzerkatze May sound strange, but it's true: The more arms a monster has, the better you are off to grapple it, for all the arms do nothing for it in a grapple, but give it extra attack outside of it. One attack or one grapple check, unmodified by number of arms. Really not true. The more arms it has, the more attacks. The more attacks, the more grapple checks it makes. Reread the the section entitled If You're Grappling. Originally posted by Harzerkatze The optinal but logical rule from S&F saying you get a +4 per set of arms hasn't made it into 3.5. The squid and giant squid do, but they are the only ones I noticed. Originally posted by Harzerkatze Neither did monsters keep their attack routine in a grapple: They can either claw at you or bite at you, but not both, and if they claw at you, they only use one claw... Utterly false. Originally posted by Harzerkatze Another grapple rule which makes no sense: When you pinned an opponent, you can move him as a standart action. That would have been a nice rule, only that a pin only lasts for one round and is an attack action. Since it is impossible to have more than one standart action per round, you cannot pin someone and then use a standart action to move him before your pin is over again. Haste might help, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the intend. The rule is just plain wrong. Yes, making it impossible for you ALONE to gain the bonus for moving a pinned opponent, but moving an opponent that your grappling parnter has pinned gets the bonus. Seems fine by me.
Harzerkatze 09-11-03, 09:40 AM	That's the way I would like to have it, too. But if you look at the description of the "rake" special attack in 3.5, for example, it says: . Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual –4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple. That's pretty clear wording, I fear. A creature can only attack with one natural weapon in a grapple, and it get's a -4 on it's attack for that. Other monsters that get a +4 to grapple checks include the octopus and the choker, it seems, but the bonus doesn't seem to be related to the number of arms, seeing that an octopus has two less then a squid. Regarding the moving rules: Technically, the partner pinning wouldn't be pinned himself and thus would prevent the grapple from moving. Given, you could argue that a consensual movement is possible, but that's not in the rules AFAIK. It also means that a giant eagle or owl can't carry away an opponent it grabbed unless another eagle comes by to help him (giant eagles/owls don't have improved grab). Knowing how e.g. owls hunt, that makes as much sense to me as imagining a giant squid wrestling with just one arm... IMO, moving an opponent was either supposed to be an attack action or a move action and they wrote it wrong, or they just didn't think it through. The rules don't look like they are supposed to be used for grappling pairs only.
Xychotic 09-11-03, 06:27 PM	Good catch! As far as I can tell, you're right on about screwing certain monsters by grappling them. For a squid, or any creature with improved grab, I could easily see letting it make multiple attacks because of multiple limbs. Those tacky squid movies show some pretty wicked stuff coming from one of those critters. Within the rules, though, you're right. But this is where you get to remember one of the coolest things about playing a paper based RPG, if you don't like it, fix it. For your squid, and any critter like it, let him make no more than half of his attacks as grapple checks. He's got 10 tentacles, he uses all of them, but half are more for holding himself in place, the others are for ripping you a new one, and that's not to mention the bite. As for dragging off a guy, play some Metal Gear Solid and it becomes pretty obvious that a guy can cart another one off if he were strong enough. Also, one of the Dragon magazines caught this issue (I don't recall which). The deal is this, pin the guy, and if you're not grappled, drag him away. So, in this case 'haste' would be a great help but only for the first 5 ft. E.g. Joe Samurai finds himself on the wrong side of an angry jujitsu monk. The monk pulls a fast one and gets him (easy with the feat). At this point, the monk is grappling, but not grappled. That is, Joe's still flailing around to get grip and he's grappled but not grappling. Joe (with his crazy attack bonus) decides that this monk needs to cool off. He turns around and tries to wrestle with the monk. Now their going at it, probably in the dirt. Both grappled and grappling. After a bit of rolling around, Joe gets lucky. his first attack breaks the grapple (he's no longer grappled) and his second pins the monk. He's strong, so he drags Neo (our jujitsu monk) about 5 ft. Neo is in dire straits, he tries his hardest but Joe is just too tough. Joe makes a second pin and since he can drag Neo, he carts him over to the horse trough a mere 15 ft away. Then, with one more grappling maneuver, he "cools him off." It's all about how cool the action is, and whether the DM agrees. There'll be a lot of rolling involved in such a set of actions, but the results can be funny (horse trough) or deadly (lava pit).
d_nychus 09-11-03, 07:07 PM	Actually, all the Rake ruling says is what is in the PHB, that you cannot use offhand weapons for grappling. So say a monster with tentacle attack, a bite attack, and a tail attack grapples you, whenever it makes a successful grapple check it HAS to deal damage with only one of those attacks. Example, if the first attack is the tail attack, all other attacks that round need to be tail attacks. If it has a 5 attacks as its full attack, it can deal damage with 5 times with 5 grapple checks, but only with ONE attack source in a given round. Basically, you have only one hand/tentacle/bite/psuedopod free to strike as you want, but the rest of your body is busy holding onto your enemy. A giant suid has 10 tentacle attacks and a bite as a full round attack, and can replace everyone of those attacks with a grapple check when grappled (provided it is doing something that is an attack action with the grapple check, which is MOST of the options.) So, here is why it is really dumb to grapple a giant squid. 10 grapple checks at +29 for damage and one at +24, each dealing 1d6+8 each successful grapple check thanks to constrict, including the grapple check to start a hold from improved grab. You can let go of a charcter you have pinned as a free action. So, you have three guys holding a fourth. One of them pins and the other two get ready to move. THey then get a +4 to their grapple check to pull the opponent half their normal speed. The third guy uses his remaining move to keep up. Next round the two guards ready action again, and the third guy grapples and pins, and the other two move off. It's like in the movies when the valiatn hero is being drug away from the evil overlord by his guards. That is what it is supposed to represent.
Ob_Deamon 09-11-03, 08:20 PM	Ya seen my Delf-Ahar template? Try grapplin' one o' dem... hehehehehehe. Specially bad if your charecter is good...
Harzerkatze 09-12-03, 03:45 AM	Xychotic: I have moved quite some pinned guys when I was still training Jiu-Jitzu, and have been moved quite a bit by my trainers, too. Of course I can make house rules for this. I can house rule anything. But as a true follower of the Oberoni Principle, I try to find the loops and holes in the official rules and point them out, in the hope that they are fixed someday. Beacuse I use to play in different groups, on small cons Eetc., and thesy would be a mess if everybody would first list up all of their house rules. That's why I for one want to have a conclusive official rules set. d_nychus: The PHB says nothing on the issue. It says that you cannot get multiple attacks through two-weapon-fighting in a grapple, but can get them through BAB. It remains totally silent on the matter of multiple attacks trough natural attack pattern. The only reference is that a natural attack is considered to be a normal attack and thus has a -4 mod. The rake description, however, seems totally clear to me: When grappling, only one natural attack, unless you can rake. Period. I don't see how you deduct your version from that. For example, the rake description doesn't mention two-weapon-fighting, what isn't surprising seeing that I know of no monster that can both rake and use two-weapon fighting. Don't misunderstand me: I would like the giant squid to make it's 10 grapple checks, too - but I see nothing in the rules that allows this. Your reasoning doesn't sound conclusive to me. Regarding the "moving a pin" I still disagree, but of course it is moot for us to imagine what could have been the designers intent.
Tenzhi 09-12-03, 04:06 AM	The 10 tentacles ARE just one natural attack. Thus why they all happen at the same BAB.
Harzerkatze 09-12-03, 07:46 AM	Hmmm. I see what you mean now. I have to admit, the monster manual treats natural weapon as singular even if there are more than one of a kind, for example in the natural weapon description or the full attack description. That could indeed mean that the "use just one natural weapon" part above means that all of the squids tentacles are one weapon, so it gets 10 attacks. Then the "attack your opponent" passage in the grapple rules means that you indeed can use all of your attacks from a natural weapon at once. That would solve most of the problem. Observe, however, that the mentioned squid would only be able to make one grapple check. Because the number of grapple checks (or more precisely: the number of quasi-actions in a grapple) is limited by BAB, and since natural weapon users can't iterate their BAB, that means the number is one. One option for such a quasi-action is "attack your opponent", which includes all attacks with one of the natural wepaons as we just proved above. But since "pin" or "damage your opponent" are quasi-actions themselves, not parts of the "attack your opponent" quasi-action, you only get one of them. Which in turn is consistent with the grappler using all of his body in a grapple.
youspoonybard 09-12-03, 07:55 AM	Nah, they're different. Magic Fang, for instance, would only help one of them. Squids are eligible for some of the feats that require 3 or more natural weapons. Grappling isn't always the best option, though...look at animals like the wolf, who normally only get 1 attack. If it has high enough BAB, it could get 2 or possibly 3 attacks off in a grapple... Why is the Fighter Grappling the Squid? If I were the squid, I'd hit with a tentacle, Improved Grab, Constrict, take the -20 penalty no sweat (Normally +29 grapple modifier).
Boondoggle 09-12-03, 07:56 AM	From the SRD: If You’re Grappling When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses. Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple check. Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual -4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage. If the squid and it's prey are grappling, the squid can only "Attack Your Opponent" once. However, it can make up to 10 opposed grapple checks to "Damage Your Opponent." This is what makes the squid deadly to grapple.
Harzerkatze 09-12-03, 10:58 AM	Wow, this is really getting confusing... youspoonybard: Natural weapons are never iterated through BAB, as per their description. So they wouldn't give you additional checks from that. Boondoggle: I think I disagree (I'm not really sure, really). If a squid gets 10 attacks as per the description "if you're grappling", it has 10 quasi-actrions in that round, so it could spend them either on "attack an opponent" or "damage an opponent". I don't see why the "attack an opponent" options should be limited to one. Boy, this wording reall is confusing.
youspoonybard 09-12-03, 02:19 PM	In a grapple, note that you get multiple attacks based upon your bab. A lot of monsters are A LOT more dangerous when they're grappling for precisely that reason; they get more attacks.
Boondoggle 09-12-03, 06:31 PM	While grappling, critters aparently get only one "Attack Your Enemy" attempt per round (implied by the rake ability), but they get as many grapple checks as they have natural attacks. The reasoning behind this, I think, sorta makes sense, but definately needs to be clerified.
daryth 09-13-03, 08:51 AM	You also have to remember that some creatures can be exceptions to the rule. Under the full attack for natural weapons a creature gets it's full attack bonus with it's primary attack (arms in this case) for each arm that it has. The MM states that a creature would get claw claw bite one for each arm plus it's mouth, a squid would get all it's arms in that case.
daryth 09-13-03, 08:54 AM	Also the example in the original post starting a grapple with a giant squid, you can't. A giant squid is huge more than 1 size larger than a medium character, under the grapple rules large is the most you could hope for.