Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kronos Master of All Time 08-27-05, 04:17 PM	Well, what I have been able to figure out at the moment. I would like some suggestions on what others think I should include. Keep in mind, this monster always appeared late in the final fantasy games, so I am trying to make it reflect that. I am unsure of what type it would be, but I am fairly certain it would be Small size. I left the HD type blank for that reason. Tonberry Would be small outsider (or magical beast, aberration). Would be immune to blindness/deafness, poison, petrification, death effects, mind-affecting effects, magical sleep. Speed: 15 feet HD: 14d? Str 16 Dex 10 Con 18 Int 10 Wis 18 Cha 8 Attack: dagger (1d4+3) Special Attack: Karmic Strike (Ex) Karmic Strike (Ex): When a tonberry is within melee range of an opponent, and that opponent has sttacked the tonberry, whether it was struck or not, it may make a melee touch attack with its dagger. If it successfully strikes its opponent, it deals a number of damage equal to the opponent’s Hit Dice x 10. I am not too sure about the stats, and the Karmic Strike seems about good. I am just wondering if I should reduce the damage multiplier of that attack to more around 5 (remember, a single attack from a Tonberry had a very good chance to kill one of the party members). Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Vanigo 08-27-05, 04:59 PM	15 feet seems about three times too fast to me.
Nuntius128 08-27-05, 05:20 PM	15 feet seems about three times too fast to me. I agree completely on that. I'd actually reduce their Intelligence a bit, because they really don't seem capable of speech, and other basic things that Intelligence would govern. Dexterity should be much lower than 10. How many times have you seen one trip? And I'd reduce their HD. They shouldn't be more than a CR 6, IMO. You should just pump up their Constitution, because they also seem like they'd have great Fort saves. I'd add the Wounding property to their Knife attack, as well. Why? Well, I know in FFTA, they had an attack called "Knife" that brought your HP down to 1/10th maximum, so that would make sense. Its funny you posted this, I was just workin on a Malboro, which should be posted soon.
Kronos Master of All Time 08-28-05, 09:32 AM	I had originally made the speed 5 feet, but I wasn't sure if that was too slow. I will modify this today, but what monster type should it be? I was thinking outsider, but I am not too sure about that. And I have never seen one trip before.
Starmage21 08-28-05, 09:48 AM	definitely abberration
Kozeljnik 08-28-05, 10:21 AM	I was just workin on a Malboro, which should be posted soon. Malboros will be total death to anyone...
homey188 08-28-05, 10:58 AM	in ff7 the knife attack was auto matic if you attacked while it was moving
jukar 08-28-05, 11:03 AM	in ff7 the knife attack was auto matic if you attacked while it was moving Remember, they should have an advanced version that is like a Tonberry King, that has a very VERY high CR, like 16-18 perhaps. It's been a while since I've touched an FF game, but don't Tonberries have some form of instant death attack, too? I know that in some games Chef's Knife was instant death, but in some games just damage. They also have their Curse/Karma ability that deals damage equal to damage dealt to them. (Edit: Never mind that. I didn't note the Karmic Strike ability) I agree with the other posters who said their Dex should be low. Those cute little buggers would be pretty clumsy, but should have good CON, and maybe even decent STR (Chef's Knife can deal a lot of damage, and as slow and deliberately as they move, you know it isn't coming from sneak attack!).
Antioch 08-28-05, 12:27 PM	I really didnt base any of my FF conversions off of the older stuff, pretty much sticking to FFXI as the newest iteration of a monster in addition to having more background info available. The tonberry I had created was made in a similar fashion to most Small creatures you can find (including a base speed of 20 feet and an average Dex). They were aberrations, had a Sneak Attack-like ability, and I was still working on how to implement Rancor while not making it ludicrously overpowered. Well, what I have been able to figure out at the moment. I would like some suggestions on what others think I should include. Keep in mind, this monster always appeared late in the final fantasy games, so I am trying to make it reflect that. I am unsure of what type it would be, but I am fairly certain it would be Small size. I left the HD type blank for that reason. Tonberry Would be small outsider (or magical beast, aberration). Would be immune to blindness/deafness, poison, petrification, death effects, mind-affecting effects, magical sleep. I'd change this to aberration. Speed: 15 feet Up to 20 feet like most Small creatures. HD: 14d? Str 16 Dex 10 Con 18 Int 10 Wis 18 Cha 8 Since FFXI sported an island full of tonberries (Elshimo region) that supported a whole tribe of them, I decided to built them as if they were a race, and not as an insane gag-monster. Due to that, I dropped the HD to 1, gave them a Dex and Con bonus, and reduced their Cha by 4 I think. Attack: dagger (1d4+3) Special Attack: Karmic Strike (Ex) Karmic Strike (Ex): When a tonberry is within melee range of an opponent, and that opponent has sttacked the tonberry, whether it was struck or not, it may make a melee touch attack with its dagger. If it successfully strikes its opponent, it deals a number of damage equal to the opponent’s Hit Dice x 10. This is...insane. Since its also a touch attack the tonberry is virtually guaranteed to hit, nearly slaying any given PC instantly. I gave them a 1/day base ability called Rancor, which allowed them to use a lantern to channel angry spirits for 1d6 points of damage per Hit Die that the tonberry possesses. I first did it the way you are, basing it off of the creature's HD, because the whole thing was geared around monsters you had killed in previous FF games (in FFXI it was based on the tonberries you killed, but could be reset by a tonberry in exchange for gil). However, what about monsters with racial HD like a minotaur? Or heck, a gnoll? Or what if you are playing a succubus? You have like 6 HD, rather than the 14 or so other party members will have. Because of this I decided to base it on the tonberry, which helps factor into the CR better anyway, and represents that more experienced tonberries can channel more spirits or more powerful ones. I also had a feat that allowed them to do it one more time each day, and was working on a tonberry prestige class that would allow them to do other things with it. I am not too sure about the stats, and the Karmic Strike seems about good. I am just wondering if I should reduce the damage multiplier of that attack to more around 5 (remember, a single attack from a Tonberry had a very good chance to kill one of the party members). Any help would be greatly appreciated. I would check out info on FFXI for your tonberry goodness, also, I've been working on my site to post all my FF stuff but wouldnt mind helping you out as well. The tonberry gave me the most trouble out of any FF monster, even the cactuar.
Verelor 08-28-05, 12:34 PM	Please take it to this discussion here: Final Fantasy D20 Conversion (http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=6985564#post6985564)
Antioch 08-28-05, 12:51 PM	Please take it to this discussion here: Why? First of all, this is a valid topic for these boards. And second, that thread is rarely used anymore, and has little info on monsters (since I wrote it all).
Verelor 08-28-05, 12:57 PM	Ok...don't.
Antioch 08-28-05, 01:23 PM	Wasnt planning to, really.
OctoberRaven 08-28-05, 01:34 PM	Special Attack: Karmic Strike (Ex) Karmic Strike (Ex): When a tonberry is within melee range of an opponent, and that opponent has sttacked the tonberry, whether it was struck or not, it may make a melee touch attack with its dagger. If it successfully strikes its opponent, it deals a number of damage equal to the opponent’s Hit Dice x 10. The damage makes this insanely broken. I'd say xd4, where x is the opponents HD. Making the attack immune to Damage Resistance is optional.
Kronos Master of All Time 08-28-05, 07:08 PM	Well, before I had checked this thread out for more replies (my connection pooped out on me), I wrote up this revision of the tonberry I had in the original post. Tonberry Small Aberration Hit Dice: 8d8+67 Initiative: +4 Speed: 5 feet (1 square) AC: 17 (+1 size, +6 natural), Touch 11, Flat-Footed 17 Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+5 Attack: Dagger +10 melee (1d4+4) Full Attack: Dagger +10 melee (1d4+4) Special Attacks: Karmic strike Special Qualities: Lowlight vision, immunities Saves: Fort +10, Ref +2, Will +6 Abilities: Str 16, Dex 10, Con 26, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 7 Skills: Move Silently +8 Feats: Improved Initiative, Toughness, Dodge Environment: Any land and underground Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 10 Treasure: Standard Alignment: Neutral Advancement: 8-10 HD (Small), 11-25 HD (Medium), 26-32 HD (Large) A small green-skinned bald humanoid appraoches slowly. Clad in a tan robe, it carries a lantern in its left hand, and a mean-looking knife in its right hand. Tonberries are solitary creatures that live mainly in underground cave systems as well as dungeons, though it can be found above ground as well. They have green skin and no hair. COMBAT A tonberry approaches its opponents slowly. It only focuses on a single adversary with single-minded focus, until either the tonberry or its target die, in which case it focuses on another opponent, unless the tonberry itself was killed. Karmic Strike (Ex): When a tonberry is within melee range of an opponent, and that opponent has sttacked the tonberry, whether it was struck or not, it may make a melee touch attack with its dagger. If it successfully strikes its opponent, it deals a number of damage equal to the opponent’s Hit Dice x 5. The tonberry can only use this ability on a target only once. Immunities: Tonberries are immune to blindness/deafness, poison, petrification, death effects, mind-affecting effects, and magical sleep effects. I mostly based this off of FFX, FFX-2, and FF7. I don't have access to FFXI, so I wouldn't know how that game has tonberries. I wanted to make it a challenge for mid-level parties, so I gave it a CR of 10, but I am not too sure about whether the abilities I gave it would bump it up, or if the CR is too high as is. I reduced the Karmic Strike to opponent's HD x 5 (I could do HD x 1d4, which could make it a little less hurtful overall, though if the roll was low, make the ability a bit too weak). I will take everyone's input into account for another revision. I am basing this off of them not as a race, but a normal monster. And I don't intend to use it as a gag monster. I am writing this up for a serious monster. Again, more comments are welcome.
Sapp 08-28-05, 07:19 PM	Challenge rating ten? An instant-death melee touch attack? Let's make something clear. Other than fighter/barbarian classes, which have an average of 5.5 and 6.5 hit points per level respectively, all other classes die in one or two hits from this tonberry... A wizard gets about 2.5 hit points per level. I'll be generous and say that he has 2 extra points per level from Constitution bonuses. That's 4.5 hit points per level. Can you see why a single touch from a tonberry will kill a level 10 wizard? As it is, the creature sounds ridiculous. It has over 100 hit points with 26 constitution, and it's a small aberration. HD x 5 damage is better than even HD x 1d8 (which averages out to 4.5 per 1d8). 50 damage for a melee touch attack at level 10, against level 10 party... does that sound reasonable?
Kronos Master of All Time 08-28-05, 07:31 PM	Let's see. If we take avg hit points for each class at level 10. with con bonus +2 d4 HD: would have 45 hp. that's -5 left. d6 HD: would have 55 hp. that's 5 left. d8 HD: would have 65 hp. that's 15 left. d10 HD: would have 75 hp. that's 25 left. d12 HD: would have 85 hp. that's 35 left. The only classes that this would outright kill, with avg hp (Not counting full hp at 1st level), and constitution of 14-15 (which by then, you can afford items that can increase your Con score), are the Wizard and Sorcerer. And why would you let something so slow get close enough to you to hit you with it? HD x 5 is not instant death. And in the games, tonberries could kill you with 1 strike, no matter how much hp you had. And besides, I have changed the Karmic Strike to be only usable on a target 1 time. So, if you happen to survive the karmic strike, you only have its dagger to worry about. and it's not like it can chase you down anyway.
Sapp 08-28-05, 07:43 PM	I don't have too much experience in FF games besides the old ones, so you migth be right. It just didn't seem right to me that tonberries could effectively kill level 20 characters with 2 or 3 hits at most. However, I see your point that it's a slow creature that only has melee as its purpose.
OctoberRaven 08-28-05, 08:44 PM	Well what I meant was (Opponent's HD)d4, meaning you would roll one d4 for every HD (8 HD means 8d4, etc) or if needed change it to d6. Having a flat rate for the damage still seems kind of against the grain of D&D game play. Of course, potential of facing semibroken monsters is another reason why the Toughness feat rules.
Echoes of Deception 08-28-05, 09:08 PM	As a matter of fact, he is right. I was going to make a tonberry for my freestyle tabletop, and they were some darn frightening beasts, as they should be. Just because they're small and cute doesn't mean they're not insanely dangerous. I think set damage may be a bad idea, but I don't necessarily think (HD)dX is the best way to go either. Perhaps if you give it a Fort save at DC 15 for half damage, followed by a second fort save at DC 30 which ignores the 'automatic' rule for 1s and 20s, for no damage... just an idea.
jukar 08-28-05, 09:36 PM	As a matter of fact, he is right. I was going to make a tonberry for my freestyle tabletop, and they were some darn frightening beasts, as they should be. Just because they're small and cute doesn't mean they're not insanely dangerous. That was what I was thinking. Tonberries, regardless of which FF game we are talking about, are FEROCIOUSLY evil little buggers who can easily kill a party member in one hit, no problem. They are also notoriously difficult to kill. As for the person who suggested CR 6- WHAT?! Tonberries are typically end-game enemies. In games where they have multiple varieties (basic tonberry, tonberry king), it would be logical to have a basic tonberry be at around CR 10-14, and then have the king be at 15-20, or just make it a regular tonberry with class levels. In games where there is only ONE variety, it would probably be better to strike an even ground.
homey188 08-29-05, 04:43 PM	i just replayed ff7 and 8 heres what i found 7: if you attack while their moving ( maybe attack of oppertunity?) the do damage equal to 1 per monster killed in the entire game (meaning caitsith would be good against them) 8 : lived in a sidequest and if you kill 20+ of them the tonberry king arrives and i coulnt find the strategy guide so he killed my lv 100 party
jukar 08-29-05, 04:54 PM	i just replayed ff7 and 8 heres what i found 7: if you attack while their moving ( maybe attack of oppertunity?) the do damage equal to 1 per monster killed in the entire game (meaning caitsith would be good against them) 8 : lived in a sidequest and if you kill 20+ of them the tonberry king arrives and i coulnt find the strategy guide so he killed my lv 100 party HA, maybe in YOUR file.
Eli Nalio 08-29-05, 05:03 PM	no offense, but at level 30 he should be an easy chatch for any player of ff8, good lord, and waiting till level 100 to try to get him, :eek: what were you thinking, :mad: they advance with your level, at level 100 :P no wounder you couldn't beat him :eek:
LordVyreth 08-29-05, 06:59 PM	Actually, I'd say the Tonberries used so far are far too slow. Yes, the ones in the games were slow, but that was countered by the fact that the heroes never actually moved in combat. With a speed of 5, most PCs will just get out of the Tonberry's way and pepper it with ranged attacks, or just evade the creature entirely. I would let the Tonberries keep a speed of five feet for normal movement, but give them the supernatural ability to always get five feet closer to their target regardless of how far the target moves or how slow the Tonberry seems to be walking. For example, if the party stumbles upon a Tonberry 50 feet away and they run 90 feet away from it, at the start of the Tonberry's next turn, it will suddenly appear 45 feet away from the selected party member!
Vanigo 08-29-05, 08:18 PM	Actually, I'd say the Tonberries used so far are far too slow. Yes, the ones in the games were slow, but that was countered by the fact that the heroes never actually moved in combat. With a speed of 5, most PCs will just get out of the Tonberry's way and pepper it with ranged attacks, or just evade the creature entirely. I would let the Tonberries keep a speed of five feet for normal movement, but give them the supernatural ability to always get five feet closer to their target regardless of how far the target moves or how slow the Tonberry seems to be walking. For example, if the party stumbles upon a Tonberry 50 feet away and they run 90 feet away from it, at the start of the Tonberry's next turn, it will suddenly appear 45 feet away from the selected party member!Ooh, I like that. Give it a special quality: Impossible Pursuit (Su): As a free action a tonberry may designate any creature it can see as its pursuit target. Once this is done, whenever the pursuit target moves away from it, the tonberry may, if it wishes, move to a new location so that it is the same distance from the target as it was before. It must move to the nearest safe location an appropriate distance from the target; if there are two appropriate locations an equal distance from the tonberry, it may move to whichever one it likes. This movement takes place at the same time as the target's movement, does not provoke an attack of opportunity, and is unimpeded by terrain and barriers. The tonberry can even use this ability to pursue a creature that has teleported or moved to a different plane. If there is no place the tonberry can safely stand an appropriate distance away from the target (for instance, if the target is using water walk to stand in the middle of a lake), it may move to the nearest unsafe location (although it seldom will). A tonberry may pursue only one creature at a time; it may stop pursuing a target to pursue a new one.
Myst_the_Moonscout 08-30-05, 01:48 AM	I've been wanting to convert the Tonberry for some time now. The first time I saw one was when my friend was playing FF7. I couldn't figure out why she was trying to hard to flee from this little waddling green thing that appeared to be reading a book, until said green thing charged one of her characters and said character promptly died. I would give the Tonberry a instant death attack in which the targetted PC must make a fort save or die. If they succeed they take damage, maybe loosing 1/2 their current hit points.
Sapp 08-30-05, 03:02 AM	Haha. They get progressively harder to beat as you level? Guess that shows my inexperience with later FF games... (Yes, it's sad that I consider FF 7 to be a "late" FF game.) How would the Challenge Rating for such a monster work? At level 1, they should have a CR of about 1. As implied by the posts I've read, his CR should be significantly higher against level 20 heroes. How would FF7 veterans deal with this?
Freefall 08-30-05, 03:46 AM	The level up thing is a function of FF8, not the Tonberry (what is the plural of that anyway? Tonberrys? Tonberries?). In that game, all of the monsters gained levels in proportion to your characters, so that the old "just level up until you kick its butt" trick of RPGs didn't work anymore. One of the side effects was that sometimes, some monsters were actually tougher to beat at higher levels than lower levels, so it almost discouraged gaining XP. Anyway, Tonberries have always been tough as hell. My first encounter with one in the Gold Saucer in FF7 had Cloud die promptly. Partly it was because I underestimated the thing, but those guys have a huge number of HP relative to other monsters you can run into at the same time, and you really have to hit them hard to kill them before they get to you. On top of that, they can counter-attack pretty hard. In FFIII (where they were called "Pugs") they hit hard and fast, and could counter, and I think they could cast Holy. The first time I ran into them in that game they promptly wiped out my party. I finally figured out that if you make everyone invisible they become much less dangerous because they mostly use physical attacks, but without Phantom you need to be a heck of a lot tougher to win. Anyway, I don't feel like going into exactly how many HP and stuff they should have (though I definitely like that special ability mentioned above), but they should have a lot, and I think that even a basic Tonberry should have a CR over 10. A King Tonberry should be an Epic Level monster. I think in FF7 they might have been the 2nd most dangerous things in that crater after the King Behemoth, which is basically the Tarrasque on crack with the ability to cast flare and automatically counter-attack with comet. Maybe one way of getting an idea of its power would be to try to come up with a rough comparison between some of the dragons in the game and ones in D&D, and figure how much stronger (or weaker) a Tonberry is in comparison.
Radijs 08-30-05, 05:36 AM	it deals a number of damage equal to the opponent’s Hit Dice x 10 Hello. can you say death for anything? Unless you've got a con thats through the roof or perfect dice rolls with at least a fighters HD you're royally boned.
jukar 08-30-05, 08:45 AM	In FFIII (where they were called "Pugs") they hit hard and fast, and could counter, and I think they could cast Holy. The first time I ran into them in that game they promptly wiped out my party. I finally figured out that if you make everyone invisible they become much less dangerous because they mostly use physical attacks, but without Phantom you need to be a heck of a lot tougher to win. Hmm, not to be a hairsplitter, but as a diehard FFIV fan- The spell Tonberries (or Pugs, as they were called in the English FFIII version) used was the Lore spell Step Mine, which did damage proportionate to the amount of steps you had taken- this in effect is basically like dealing damage proportionate to HD, and almost always guaranteed a death in the party. However, in console games, death is much less serious a condition, so it may be nessecary to scale back it's power. Perhaps it does a large amount of damage, and requires a Fortitude save on the part of the victim to avoid being knocked unconscious. Once unconscious, the Tonberry might slowly creep towards a fallen victim and coup de grace them with the chef's knife. And maybe I'm just a powergamer, but despite the overall difficulty, I never had much trouble with them- but once you start using the Vanish-Doom combo, you really don't have much trouble with anything.
Lyinginbedmon 08-31-05, 06:01 PM	Though I'm by no means a huge FF fan, I have had the mispleasure of encountering a Tonberry unprepared. To be honest, they seem more like a unique NPC than a creature, but they should probably have a Sneak Attack element to them.
Tealgorthian 08-31-05, 07:19 PM	All I can say is that if my Wizard ever sees a Tonberry, the first thing I am gonna do is look at my DM and say "I cast a QUickened Reach Spell Invisiblity at the Tonberry, then hit it with Finger of Death. It dies." If that fails, I'll use my Improved Trip to trip someone and run like hell. Afterall, I don't have to outrun the Tomberry. I have to outrun YOU