Fire Giant´s Base Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fire Giant´s Base Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
zero_cool
07-28-05, 11:45 AM My DM just trew at us a Fire Giant... but Im´s sure it has a character class so I ask my DM what the hell is that giant, so he told me...

Fire Giant / Barbarian 7 / Bear Warrior 10

Jesus Christ!!!! that´s .....!!! but that was reality.

Later he told me he didn´t was sure about his BAB. As I investigated, one question assault my mind: If he has 15 HD as a Fire Giant, that give him a Base Attack of +10/+5 (as a cleric of level 15) Then plus the 17 levels of barbarian/bear warrior, that gives us a total of +27/+22/+17/+12 but what about epic progressión?

Also the Monster Manual says the Fire Giant has 3 attacks when his level of 15 HD allows only 2 (+10/+5, good as cleric)

Imagine +27 plus +10 for an effective strength of 31... And i´m only a 11 level ranger with 26 AC
Nezzadar Respawned
07-28-05, 11:47 AM Bear Warrior?
zero_cool
07-28-05, 11:50 AM That´s right... Bear Warrior.

From Complete Warrior
Fuzzyd20
07-28-05, 12:07 PM Bear warrior is a prestige class from Complete Warrior. It let's you turn into a bear when you rage. I can't get too specific, CoC and all.

Now, either your DM intends for you to run, is trying to kill the party, or is very new if he's sending a CR 27 monster at an eleventh level party. That said, I think it's base attack should be +28/+23/+18/+13, monsters don't use epic attack bonus (Don't quote me on this, I don't play epic often).
cwslyclgh
07-28-05, 01:38 PM IIRC epic advancement of attack and save bonuses only occurs when CLASS LEVELS reach 21+, the giant in this example only has 17 class levels and there for would not use them as of yet (until at least 4 more class levels were gained).
Salla
07-28-05, 01:43 PM I'm not too familiar with the bear warrior and polymorph/wildshape effects in general ... but won't the Fire Giant get a lot *weaker* if he morphs into a bear, since he won't be a giant bear?
The Abominable Darkling
07-28-05, 04:49 PM My DM just trew at us a Fire Giant... but Im´s sure it has a character class so I ask my DM what the hell is that giant, so he told me...

Fire Giant / Barbarian 7 / Bear Warrior 10

Jesus Christ!!!! that´s .....!!! but that was reality.

Later he told me he didn´t was sure about his BAB. As I investigated, one question assault my mind: If he has 15 HD as a Fire Giant, that give him a Base Attack of +10/+5 (as a cleric of level 15) Then plus the 17 levels of barbarian/bear warrior, that gives us a total of +27/+22/+17/+12 but what about epic progressión?

Also the Monster Manual says the Fire Giant has 3 attacks when his level of 15 HD allows only 2 (+10/+5, good as cleric)
Well, first off, 15 HD gives the fire giant a base attack bonus of +11 (15 * 3 / 4 = 11) and three iterative attacks. Next, he gets +5 base attack from his first 5 levels of Barbarian (raising it to +16 and giving him four attacks). Finally, his remaining 12 class levels give him a +6 epic bonus to his attacks. So, his attack bonus would have been +22/+17/+12/+7 -size penalty +Strength bonus +additional modifiers.
zero_cool
07-28-05, 06:05 PM IIRC epic advancement of attack and save bonuses only occurs when CLASS LEVELS reach 21+, the giant in this example only has 17 class levels and there for would not use them as of yet (until at least 4 more class levels were gained).

You have a point there, but:

his remaining 12 class levels give him a +6 epic bonus to his attacks.

If a have a Drow, Will I be a Epic Ranger at level 18?

mmm. Interesting, don´t you think?

____________________________________

Life is so long when you live it
and so short when you look back

Giacomo. From Baten Kaitos (GCN)
The Abominable Darkling
07-28-05, 06:35 PM A character becomes epic at level 21, so a drow ranger becomes epic when he reaches character level 19 (and his effective character level is 21). However, he doesn't use the epic base attack and base save progressions until he reaches actual character level 21 (and is effectively a 23rd level character).
zero_cool
07-28-05, 06:58 PM So, if i´m a 20 level wizard and begin the fighter class, my BAB would still be 1 every 2 levels.

i believe that in this way, a character who begins his carrer as a wizard and then becomes a fighter (wizard 20/ fighter 20), won´t be able to catch up a fighter who then takes the path of the wizard (Fighter 20/ wizard 20).

that sound kind of broken. As a house rule, I would give Epic Base Attack Bonus progresion after +20/+15/+10/+5

but then again, I don´t now why I´m talking about this. I suposse i´m curious.

____________________________________

Life is so long when you live it
and so short when you look back

Giacomo. From Baten Kaitos (GCN)
mahaxxx
07-28-05, 07:36 PM monster HD count as its levels not LA thus the firegiant would be epic at 21 HD BAB is figured as normal till lvl 20 (16/11/6/1 in this case) then go epic for the remainder. the remaining 12 hd giving only 6 for 22/17/12/7 total BAB. the bear polymorph adds like rage not polymorph, you become a bear in looks but get set adds by bear type inplace of your rage mods. the bears stats are not figured into the change. hope that helps. :D oh and your DM really needs to set closer goals for you to fight, like an great worm red dragon. LOL
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
07-28-05, 11:44 PM IIRC epic advancement of attack and save bonuses only occurs when CLASS LEVELS reach 21+, the giant in this example only has 17 class levels and there for would not use them as of yet (until at least 4 more class levels were gained).
You are correct. Only Class levels count for the purposes of epic. The Fire Giant in the example would have a BAB of +28.
zero_cool
07-29-05, 10:45 AM A character becomes epic at level 21, so a drow ranger becomes epic when he reaches character level 19 (and his effective character level is 21). However, he doesn't use the epic base attack and base save progressions until he reaches actual character level 21 (and is effectively a 23rd level character).

HD count as its levels not LA thus the firegiant would be epic at 21 HD BAB is figured as normal till lvl 20 (16/11/6/1 in this case) then go epic for the remainder.

I guess you just contradicted yourself. In conclusion, Only Class level are considered to become epic, because the natural stregth of the fire Giant gives him 15 HD, not 15 character class. In the example of the Drow, he will start using epic progression at 21th level Ranger (being actually an efective 23th level).

Thank you all for your answers. Now, all that i have left is to run from that creature, not calculate his base attack.
The Abominable Darkling
07-29-05, 02:06 PM First off, that second quote is not from me, so I have not contradicted myself. Second, those claiming that only class levels count when determining whether to use the epic base attack and base save progressions are wrong. The rules are very clear that you use character level, not class level:
Epic Save Bonus: A character’s base save bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all saving throws at every even-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base save bonus, use the sum of your base save bonus and epic save bonus.

Epic Attack Bonus: Similarly, the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus, use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus.
(emphasis mine)
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
07-29-05, 05:13 PM First off, that second quote is not from me, so I have not contradicted myself. Second, those claiming that only class levels count when determining whether to use the epic base attack and base save progressions are wrong. The rules are very clear that you use character level, not class level:

Character level refers to all levels in all classes. Monster Hit Dice are not class levels by the RAW, so your argument dies there.
The Abominable Darkling
07-29-05, 06:01 PM No. Character level is racial hit dice + class levels. I'm done wasting time with you. You can disbelieve or verify as you wish.
Raven Dark
07-29-05, 06:28 PM No. Character level is racial hit dice + class levels. I'm done wasting time with you. You can disbelieve or verify as you wish.

Lighten up a little bit. I find this to be a very interesting topic and I'd hate for it to get locked.

In any case everyone, The Abomninable Darkling is right. Character Level is both Racial Hit Dice and Class Levels.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
07-30-05, 01:05 PM In any case everyone, The Abomninable Darkling is right. Character Level is both Racial Hit Dice and Class Levels.
Then I've got a bad book.
zero_cool
08-02-05, 02:30 PM With the info I´ve just read, The fire Giant has +22/+17/+12/+7 of base attack. I could use that.

As far as I know, epic progression start at character level 21 (Character level = HD + class level) So, in the inicitially posted thread, the Fire giant have 12 epic levels that grants him a +6 on his base attack.

But what happens if i´m a 20 level wizard and begin the fighter class, my BAB would still be 1 every 2 levels.

i believe that in this way, a character who begins his carrer as a wizard and then becomes a fighter (wizard 20/ fighter 20), won´t be able to catch up a fighter who then takes the path of the wizard (Fighter 20/ wizard 20).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
zero_cool 07-28-05, 11:45 AM	My DM just trew at us a Fire Giant... but Im´s sure it has a character class so I ask my DM what the hell is that giant, so he told me... Fire Giant / Barbarian 7 / Bear Warrior 10 Jesus Christ!!!! that´s .....!!! but that was reality. Later he told me he didn´t was sure about his BAB. As I investigated, one question assault my mind: If he has 15 HD as a Fire Giant, that give him a Base Attack of +10/+5 (as a cleric of level 15) Then plus the 17 levels of barbarian/bear warrior, that gives us a total of +27/+22/+17/+12 but what about epic progressión? Also the Monster Manual says the Fire Giant has 3 attacks when his level of 15 HD allows only 2 (+10/+5, good as cleric) Imagine +27 plus +10 for an effective strength of 31... And i´m only a 11 level ranger with 26 AC
Nezzadar Respawned 07-28-05, 11:47 AM	Bear Warrior?
zero_cool 07-28-05, 11:50 AM	That´s right... Bear Warrior. From Complete Warrior
Fuzzyd20 07-28-05, 12:07 PM	Bear warrior is a prestige class from Complete Warrior. It let's you turn into a bear when you rage. I can't get too specific, CoC and all. Now, either your DM intends for you to run, is trying to kill the party, or is very new if he's sending a CR 27 monster at an eleventh level party. That said, I think it's base attack should be +28/+23/+18/+13, monsters don't use epic attack bonus (Don't quote me on this, I don't play epic often).
cwslyclgh 07-28-05, 01:38 PM	IIRC epic advancement of attack and save bonuses only occurs when CLASS LEVELS reach 21+, the giant in this example only has 17 class levels and there for would not use them as of yet (until at least 4 more class levels were gained).
Salla 07-28-05, 01:43 PM	I'm not too familiar with the bear warrior and polymorph/wildshape effects in general ... but won't the Fire Giant get a lot weaker if he morphs into a bear, since he won't be a giant bear?
The Abominable Darkling 07-28-05, 04:49 PM	My DM just trew at us a Fire Giant... but Im´s sure it has a character class so I ask my DM what the hell is that giant, so he told me... Fire Giant / Barbarian 7 / Bear Warrior 10 Jesus Christ!!!! that´s .....!!! but that was reality. Later he told me he didn´t was sure about his BAB. As I investigated, one question assault my mind: If he has 15 HD as a Fire Giant, that give him a Base Attack of +10/+5 (as a cleric of level 15) Then plus the 17 levels of barbarian/bear warrior, that gives us a total of +27/+22/+17/+12 but what about epic progressión? Also the Monster Manual says the Fire Giant has 3 attacks when his level of 15 HD allows only 2 (+10/+5, good as cleric) Well, first off, 15 HD gives the fire giant a base attack bonus of +11 (15 * 3 / 4 = 11) and three iterative attacks. Next, he gets +5 base attack from his first 5 levels of Barbarian (raising it to +16 and giving him four attacks). Finally, his remaining 12 class levels give him a +6 epic bonus to his attacks. So, his attack bonus would have been +22/+17/+12/+7 -size penalty +Strength bonus +additional modifiers.
zero_cool 07-28-05, 06:05 PM	IIRC epic advancement of attack and save bonuses only occurs when CLASS LEVELS reach 21+, the giant in this example only has 17 class levels and there for would not use them as of yet (until at least 4 more class levels were gained). You have a point there, but: his remaining 12 class levels give him a +6 epic bonus to his attacks. If a have a Drow, Will I be a Epic Ranger at level 18? mmm. Interesting, don´t you think? ____________________________________ Life is so long when you live it and so short when you look back Giacomo. From Baten Kaitos (GCN)
The Abominable Darkling 07-28-05, 06:35 PM	A character becomes epic at level 21, so a drow ranger becomes epic when he reaches character level 19 (and his effective character level is 21). However, he doesn't use the epic base attack and base save progressions until he reaches actual character level 21 (and is effectively a 23rd level character).
zero_cool 07-28-05, 06:58 PM	So, if i´m a 20 level wizard and begin the fighter class, my BAB would still be 1 every 2 levels. i believe that in this way, a character who begins his carrer as a wizard and then becomes a fighter (wizard 20/ fighter 20), won´t be able to catch up a fighter who then takes the path of the wizard (Fighter 20/ wizard 20). that sound kind of broken. As a house rule, I would give Epic Base Attack Bonus progresion after +20/+15/+10/+5 but then again, I don´t now why I´m talking about this. I suposse i´m curious. ____________________________________ Life is so long when you live it and so short when you look back Giacomo. From Baten Kaitos (GCN)
mahaxxx 07-28-05, 07:36 PM	monster HD count as its levels not LA thus the firegiant would be epic at 21 HD BAB is figured as normal till lvl 20 (16/11/6/1 in this case) then go epic for the remainder. the remaining 12 hd giving only 6 for 22/17/12/7 total BAB. the bear polymorph adds like rage not polymorph, you become a bear in looks but get set adds by bear type inplace of your rage mods. the bears stats are not figured into the change. hope that helps. :D oh and your DM really needs to set closer goals for you to fight, like an great worm red dragon. LOL
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 07-28-05, 11:44 PM	IIRC epic advancement of attack and save bonuses only occurs when CLASS LEVELS reach 21+, the giant in this example only has 17 class levels and there for would not use them as of yet (until at least 4 more class levels were gained). You are correct. Only Class levels count for the purposes of epic. The Fire Giant in the example would have a BAB of +28.
zero_cool 07-29-05, 10:45 AM	A character becomes epic at level 21, so a drow ranger becomes epic when he reaches character level 19 (and his effective character level is 21). However, he doesn't use the epic base attack and base save progressions until he reaches actual character level 21 (and is effectively a 23rd level character). HD count as its levels not LA thus the firegiant would be epic at 21 HD BAB is figured as normal till lvl 20 (16/11/6/1 in this case) then go epic for the remainder. I guess you just contradicted yourself. In conclusion, Only Class level are considered to become epic, because the natural stregth of the fire Giant gives him 15 HD, not 15 character class. In the example of the Drow, he will start using epic progression at 21th level Ranger (being actually an efective 23th level). Thank you all for your answers. Now, all that i have left is to run from that creature, not calculate his base attack.
The Abominable Darkling 07-29-05, 02:06 PM	First off, that second quote is not from me, so I have not contradicted myself. Second, those claiming that only class levels count when determining whether to use the epic base attack and base save progressions are wrong. The rules are very clear that you use character level, not class level: Epic Save Bonus: A character’s base save bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all saving throws at every even-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base save bonus, use the sum of your base save bonus and epic save bonus. Epic Attack Bonus: Similarly, the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus, use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus. (emphasis mine)
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 07-29-05, 05:13 PM	First off, that second quote is not from me, so I have not contradicted myself. Second, those claiming that only class levels count when determining whether to use the epic base attack and base save progressions are wrong. The rules are very clear that you use character level, not class level: Character level refers to all levels in all classes. Monster Hit Dice are not class levels by the RAW, so your argument dies there.
The Abominable Darkling 07-29-05, 06:01 PM	No. Character level is racial hit dice + class levels. I'm done wasting time with you. You can disbelieve or verify as you wish.
Raven Dark 07-29-05, 06:28 PM	No. Character level is racial hit dice + class levels. I'm done wasting time with you. You can disbelieve or verify as you wish. Lighten up a little bit. I find this to be a very interesting topic and I'd hate for it to get locked. In any case everyone, The Abomninable Darkling is right. Character Level is both Racial Hit Dice and Class Levels.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 07-30-05, 01:05 PM	In any case everyone, The Abomninable Darkling is right. Character Level is both Racial Hit Dice and Class Levels. Then I've got a bad book.
zero_cool 08-02-05, 02:30 PM	With the info I´ve just read, The fire Giant has +22/+17/+12/+7 of base attack. I could use that. As far as I know, epic progression start at character level 21 (Character level = HD + class level) So, in the inicitially posted thread, the Fire giant have 12 epic levels that grants him a +6 on his base attack. But what happens if i´m a 20 level wizard and begin the fighter class, my BAB would still be 1 every 2 levels. i believe that in this way, a character who begins his carrer as a wizard and then becomes a fighter (wizard 20/ fighter 20), won´t be able to catch up a fighter who then takes the path of the wizard (Fighter 20/ wizard 20).