Fixing Cats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fixing Cats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Plastik
04-04-05, 01:01 AM No, I'm not talking about feline reproduction (or lack thereof), I speak of the cat issue in the MM 3.5. I don't know if this is an issue in all books, but in mine, it says that each of the cat's attacks do 1d2-4 damage. Now tell me is that illogical or what? Don't attcks at least have to do one damage? I mean, my campaign by no means hinges on it, but what do I need a bunch of null cats for? Have they been declawed?

No, seriously, what's he status on this errata?
Borris
04-04-05, 01:06 AM PHB, page 134

Minimum Damage: If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of damage.
Morwen
04-04-05, 01:07 AM No errata. You are right that a successful attack will always deal at least 1 damage (you use 1 instead if the damage would normally be less than 1), thus a cat will deal 1 damage on each of its attacks unless it has bonuses to damage.
Big Tom
04-04-05, 01:10 AM the cat's natural weapons (because of their size catogory) do 1d2 damage and they have a -4 STR bouns.

This would make their attacks do 1d2-4 damage, but sine the minimum damage is 1, mechanics mean they do 1 damage per hit, unless they have been buffed.

remember, a sadistic DM could hit you with a bunch of swarmfighting superintelligant cats.
Donraj
04-04-05, 03:30 AM And they have three attacks per round. Doesn't this seem to mean that an ordinary house cat can kill many peasants and even some PCs in a duel?
devinmdp
04-04-05, 03:58 AM And they have three attacks per round. Doesn't this seem to mean that an ordinary house cat can kill many peasants and even some PCs in a duel?

Not bloody likely.

In any event, it's better than in 1st edition, where a cat could take out 1st level characters MOST of the time!

In 3rd edition, a cat's bite is a -1 attack, which means it will miss most of the time.

They also only have 2 hp, meaning even the lowliest peasant has twice as many hp.

And finally, it is not beyond the pale that a normal cat could take out a sedentary unarmed person if it cared nothing for its own life and sort of went berserk. A cat's claws and teeth could do a lot of damage.

Devin
Solidcobra
04-04-05, 04:50 AM Sadly, not true.
For NPC classes and races, the max HP at lv.1 thing doesn't apply.
Ergo, the average peasant has 2 or 3 HP. 1 or 2 for an elf, 3 or 4 for a dwarf/gnome.
Also, average peasant has 10 AC (11 elf/gnome, 12 halfling) and +0 BAB (halfling, half-orc +1, gnome +2)
Ergo, a cat will RAPE most peasants right through those short pants of theirs!
hiryuu
04-04-05, 04:58 AM Sadly, not true.
For NPC classes and races, the max HP at lv.1 thing doesn't apply.
Ergo, the average peasant has 2 or 3 HP. 1 or 2 for an elf, 3 or 4 for a dwarf/gnome.
Also, average peasant has 10 AC (11 elf/gnome, 12 halfling) and +0 BAB (halfling, half-orc +1, gnome +2)
Ergo, a cat will RAPE most peasants right through those short pants of theirs!

Which is fine; I have seen a man mauled by a cat. Even watched the paramedics show up to bandage the guy and haul him to the hospital. The skin on his arms was nonexistent and most of his face was no longer intact.
Lina_Inverse
04-04-05, 05:50 AM Sadly, not true.
For NPC classes and races, the max HP at lv.1 thing doesn't apply.
Ergo, the average peasant has 2 or 3 HP. 1 or 2 for an elf, 3 or 4 for a dwarf/gnome.
Also, average peasant has 10 AC (11 elf/gnome, 12 halfling) and +0 BAB (halfling, half-orc +1, gnome +2)
Ergo, a cat will RAPE most peasants right through those short pants of theirs!

which make since.after all0exp people are nearly children.
devinmdp
04-04-05, 01:39 PM Sadly, not true.
For NPC classes and races, the max HP at lv.1 thing doesn't apply.
Ergo, the average peasant has 2 or 3 HP. 1 or 2 for an elf, 3 or 4 for a dwarf/gnome.
Also, average peasant has 10 AC (11 elf/gnome, 12 halfling) and +0 BAB (halfling, half-orc +1, gnome +2)
Ergo, a cat will RAPE most peasants right through those short pants of theirs!

First, it is almost unknown for the "average peasant" to have all stats average. One can assume that, on the average, in fact, at least one of Str, Dex, or Con will indeed have a bonus.

Second, even at rolled hp the average peasant has 2.5 hp while the average cat has 2 hp. Doesn't sound like a big difference? It does when the cat is doing 1 damage per hit. In addition, that 0.5 hp represents a 25% advantage over the cat. It is proportionately equivalent to the difference between a fighter with 80 hp and a fighter with 100 hp.

Third, the average peasant does 1D4 or 1D6 damage. He takes down the cat on a single hit. The cast has to hit 4 times on average to take out the human.

I suspect that even in a situation where native intelligence and tactics have absolutely no bearing whatsoever, the cat will die the majority of the time.

Devin
Evil Wizard
04-04-05, 03:20 PM The rules bear out just fine, looking at it from all angles. A commoner can easily shoo off a wild cat with a stick; the cat's natural instincts will tell it to run from something aggressive and so much bigger than it, and one solid shot with a club will wipe out the kitty anyway. The commoner has reach on the cat, and cats are smart enough to understand this.

Conversely, wild animals of any variety will tear you up if you let your guard down. Cats, rabbits, raccoons, possums, and other small critters will hurt you very badly if given the opportunity. Small animals prefer to run than fight, but push any of those into a corner and see if you don't walk away with some nasty bites and scratches. They don't usually get a chance to, but they can do a lot of damage to a person.

In a fair fight, a commoner with a broom will beat a cat every time, just by virtue of reach and the cat's low HP. If an aggressive wild cat gets the drop on an unarmed commoner, the cat is going to claw his eyes out.
devinmdp
04-04-05, 03:23 PM Exactly. In fact, I had forgotten the fact that a human gets an AoO on the cat, who has no reach. So in theory:

1. Human gets an AoO. If it hits fight is over.

2. Cat gets to attack.

3. Human attacks. Takes a 5 ft step back.

4. Human gets an AoO.

5. Cat attacks.

So the human gets an extra attack every round.
Derren S.
04-04-05, 03:34 PM Which is offset by the fact that the human has to hit a very high AC while the cat has a good attack bonus because of its size.

In a duel a cat will defeat a commoner most of the time.
devinmdp
04-04-05, 03:46 PM Which is offset by the fact that the human has to hit a very high AC while the cat has a good attack bonus because of its size.

If human wins initiative, he will get to attack. He will have a 45% chance of hitting the cat (flat-footed cat).

Then he takes a 5 ft step back.

Cat now has to advance 10 ft to attack. Cat suffers an AoO. Cat has a 35% chance of being hit.

Cat now gets a single paw swipe since it moved this round. Cat has a 70% chance to hit.

At the end of round 1, human has a total of 64% chance to hit the cat for 1D6 damage (assume he has a club). This means on average human will have done 64% times 3.5 damage or 2.24 damage to the cat.

On the average, cat will have done 0.7 damage to the human.

Advantage significantly human.

Nonetheless, if the battle continues:

Round 2, human attacks. Has a 35% chance of hitting for 1D6. He then backs up 10 ft.

Cat gets a single AoO with a 70% chance to do 1 damage.

Human now gets AoO. Another 35% chance of hitting for 1D6.

Cat gets a single claw attack with a 70% chance of hitting for 1 damage.

By backing up 10 ft and accepting the AoO, the human effectively negates the cat's bite attack.

On the other hand, if the cat wins initiative, then the odds change.

Cat moves forward. Human gets AoO with a 35% chance to hit for 1D6.

Cat attacks with 70% chance to hit for 1 damage.

Human attacks with 35% chance to hit for 1D6 damage and backs up 10 ft.

Cat gets AoO with 70% chance to hit for 1 damage.

Cat advances. Human gets AoO with 35% chance to hit for 1D6 damage.

Point is still that cat has to hit 4 times to take down human. Human hits just once to do same.

If human wins initiative and can maneuver, cat is toast barring really bad luck.

If cat wins initiative, it is still usually toast, but cat has a chance.

Devin
Fallen_Universe
04-04-05, 04:04 PM Couldn't the commoner grapple the cat and crush her little body?
At least I would do that in RL :D
Salla
04-04-05, 04:40 PM Which is offset by the fact that the human has to hit a very high AC while the cat has a good attack bonus because of its size.

In a duel a cat will defeat a commoner most of the time.

BOW TO YOUR FELINE MASTERS, MORTALS!

*mew*

>"<
Plastik
04-04-05, 05:05 PM he point here is that usually a cat wouldnt engage a hman in a "fair fight". He'd use his Hide bonus to strike once every few rounds from the shadows, then dart away.

And your "Average Commoner" dosn't have 10 Str. That's your Average Human. That includes the 18s and the 3s, and there's a lot more 18s than 3s IRL. Most comoners would probably be 8s unless specifically trained in fighting or weight training.

I mean, sure, the Commoner still wins, but the cat's gonna have a chance.
Purkake
04-04-05, 05:16 PM If human wins initiative, he will get to attack. He will have a 45% chance of hitting the cat (flat-footed cat).

Then he takes a 5 ft step back.

Cat now has to advance 10 ft to attack. Cat suffers an AoO. Cat has a 35% chance of being hit.

Cat now gets a single paw swipe since it moved this round. Cat has a 70% chance to hit.

At the end of round 1, human has a total of 64% chance to hit the cat for 1D6 damage (assume he has a club). This means on average human will have done 64% times 3.5 damage or 2.24 damage to the cat.

On the average, cat will have done 0.7 damage to the human.

Advantage significantly human.

Nonetheless, if the battle continues:

Round 2, human attacks. Has a 35% chance of hitting for 1D6. He then backs up 10 ft.

Cat gets a single AoO with a 70% chance to do 1 damage.

Human now gets AoO. Another 35% chance of hitting for 1D6.

Cat gets a single claw attack with a 70% chance of hitting for 1 damage.

By backing up 10 ft and accepting the AoO, the human effectively negates the cat's bite attack.

On the other hand, if the cat wins initiative, then the odds change.

Cat moves forward. Human gets AoO with a 35% chance to hit for 1D6.

Cat attacks with 70% chance to hit for 1 damage.

Human attacks with 35% chance to hit for 1D6 damage and backs up 10 ft.

Cat gets AoO with 70% chance to hit for 1 damage.

Cat advances. Human gets AoO with 35% chance to hit for 1D6 damage.

Point is still that cat has to hit 4 times to take down human. Human hits just once to do same.

If human wins initiative and can maneuver, cat is toast barring really bad luck.

If cat wins initiative, it is still usually toast, but cat has a chance.

Devin

If the cat wins initiative, then the human wouldn't get the first AoO, since he is flat-footed. I would also consider giving the cat a suprise round since it can hide really well and suprise the commoner.
Derren S.
04-04-05, 05:27 PM 1. The cat is more likely to win initative
2. The cat has the ability to get a surprise round due to hide
3. The fight will certainly not start when both standig next to each other so the human can't make a 5 ft. step in the first round.

When the cat wins the initative the human will most likely get only one attack before beeing killed. (Human commoners have 2 hp as the max HP at 1st level rule is only for PCs). And commoners certainly have no combat reflexes so no AoO when flat footed.
JakeQuistis
04-04-05, 06:38 PM Now if only you could have a campaign in which a village is plagued by wild cats...
"Help us! There are cats everywhere!" *Guy gets killed by cat*
jgbrowning
04-04-05, 09:21 PM Plain cats are pretty tough compared to the average commoner, but give those purring felines some X-bows and watch the carnage! :D

joe b.
obrysii
04-04-05, 09:44 PM Also keep in mind that a cat has 3 attacks, each dealing 1 point of damage should they hit.

Assuming all hits, that's 3 damage.

It doesn't matter if you have 2 hp or 2.5 hp, that kind of damage will drop you.
weasel fierce
04-05-05, 12:44 AM What if the cat is a cleric... ? ;)
Sildatorak
04-05-05, 01:27 AM I'm going to assume that the commoner has a 3 10's and 3 11's array because it is equivalent to the standard array which could be applied to the cat as well. If the human can dump charisma, so can the cat.

On the other hand, if the cat wins initiative, then the odds change.

They sure do.

Cat charges
+6 to attack against AC 10 human with club, 85% hit chance

commoner strikes back
35% hit chance*5/6 chance of dealing 2+ damage=29% chance of victory
commoner retreats, taking an AoO, 75% chance of 1 damage.

After the first round there is a .85*.71*.75 (cat hits, commoner doesn't nail cat, cat hits) or 45% chance that the cat has reduced the commoner to 0 hp vs. the commoners 29% chance. Since the cat goes first in round 2, but provokes an AoO for moving into the commoners space, the commoner will get another narrow chance to splatter the kitty, but the cat then has a 75% chance to finish the commoner off.

That isn't even assuming a surprise round. Since a cat has hide +14 (+18 in grasslands), there is a dang good chance that the commoner will get charged and then face a full attack before he can do anything in retaliation.
Khalarak Ironclaw
04-05-05, 09:20 AM These are all great points, but keep in mind that a cat isn't really capable of sophistocated tactics, and besides, its first instinct will be to run away. Its not going to risk itself or waste precious energy on a fight if it doesn't have to (animals are smart that way), and if the human is mean or foolish enough to corner the cat, then he deserves a good thrashing. Even a wild cat would only attack a human if it had no chance of avoiding combat, since predators generally prefer the odds to be stacked heavily in their favor.

In short, a cat would probably whup a commoner if it came to that, but it very rarely would.
JakeQuistis
04-05-05, 09:29 AM So then make a pack of awakened cats, bent on taking back their land from commoners.
Emir
04-05-05, 09:58 AM I have no clue on WHY people actually post these things.

I mean, who ever battled a cat ?

some ppl have to much time on their hands.
The nameles one
04-05-05, 11:28 AM I mean, who ever battled a cat ?

Never tried to wash one, eh? Yeah, those nasty little creatures own humans anytime.
strenoth
04-05-05, 12:05 PM I'm hardly an elite warrior or anything, but by DnD rules, I can appearently perform a 1-handed Improved Grapple that leaves me holding a cat and it unable to do anything about it.

Cats should also have a listed weakness: when fighting any medium size or larger creature with hands, the medium sized creature may start an improved graple by making an unarmed Touch Attack, that if successful leaves the grappled but does not cause the medium sized creature to be grappled. This weakness would be called "By the scruff of the neck".

cats shoudl also do subdual damage against a medium or larger creature.
Salla
04-05-05, 02:38 PM cats shoudl also do subdual damage against a medium or larger creature.

One of the designers (Sean K. Reynolds?) had an idea that, if you deal 'negative damage' with any attack, that single point of automatic damage should be nonlethal. It's not a bad idea, I think, for as rarely as it comes up.
Purkake
04-05-05, 02:58 PM Grappeling isn't such a good idea, the cat can eighter use escape artist to escape or it can make a light weapon attack(claw) at -4 penalty. The human can only 1)take and AoO for starting grapple and have to hit 14 touch AC 2) can only do 1d3 non-lethal damage. Looks like it is better of with the club.
cheeskacat
04-05-05, 03:04 PM i guess i should post this here since it makes sense.

i noticed that a dog has a higher dex score then the cat, is this right? or is there an errata on that? it seems that it would be easier to hit a dog then a cat.
if there is no errata should the spell be called dog's grace instead of cat's grace?
scwolf
04-05-05, 03:40 PM One of the designers (Sean K. Reynolds?) had an idea that, if you deal 'negative damage' with any attack, that single point of automatic damage should be nonlethal. It's not a bad idea, I think, for as rarely as it comes up.

That'd be the rule that Mr. Reynolds dubbed The Phil Athans Rule (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/philathansrule.html), after a WotC editor who once opined "Cats aren't domesticated, they're just not big enough to kill you."

I somehow doubt that Mr. Athans has ever had a cat in his household.
JakeQuistis
04-05-05, 04:01 PM Cats and dogs can deal lethal damage. I have proof, in the form of scratch/bite marks.
KP91
04-05-05, 04:18 PM The average house cat can easily kill a wizard.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Plastik 04-04-05, 01:01 AM	No, I'm not talking about feline reproduction (or lack thereof), I speak of the cat issue in the MM 3.5. I don't know if this is an issue in all books, but in mine, it says that each of the cat's attacks do 1d2-4 damage. Now tell me is that illogical or what? Don't attcks at least have to do one damage? I mean, my campaign by no means hinges on it, but what do I need a bunch of null cats for? Have they been declawed? No, seriously, what's he status on this errata?
Borris 04-04-05, 01:06 AM	PHB, page 134 Minimum Damage: If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of damage.
Morwen 04-04-05, 01:07 AM	No errata. You are right that a successful attack will always deal at least 1 damage (you use 1 instead if the damage would normally be less than 1), thus a cat will deal 1 damage on each of its attacks unless it has bonuses to damage.
Big Tom 04-04-05, 01:10 AM	the cat's natural weapons (because of their size catogory) do 1d2 damage and they have a -4 STR bouns. This would make their attacks do 1d2-4 damage, but sine the minimum damage is 1, mechanics mean they do 1 damage per hit, unless they have been buffed. remember, a sadistic DM could hit you with a bunch of swarmfighting superintelligant cats.
Donraj 04-04-05, 03:30 AM	And they have three attacks per round. Doesn't this seem to mean that an ordinary house cat can kill many peasants and even some PCs in a duel?
devinmdp 04-04-05, 03:58 AM	And they have three attacks per round. Doesn't this seem to mean that an ordinary house cat can kill many peasants and even some PCs in a duel? Not bloody likely. In any event, it's better than in 1st edition, where a cat could take out 1st level characters MOST of the time! In 3rd edition, a cat's bite is a -1 attack, which means it will miss most of the time. They also only have 2 hp, meaning even the lowliest peasant has twice as many hp. And finally, it is not beyond the pale that a normal cat could take out a sedentary unarmed person if it cared nothing for its own life and sort of went berserk. A cat's claws and teeth could do a lot of damage. Devin
Solidcobra 04-04-05, 04:50 AM	Sadly, not true. For NPC classes and races, the max HP at lv.1 thing doesn't apply. Ergo, the average peasant has 2 or 3 HP. 1 or 2 for an elf, 3 or 4 for a dwarf/gnome. Also, average peasant has 10 AC (11 elf/gnome, 12 halfling) and +0 BAB (halfling, half-orc +1, gnome +2) Ergo, a cat will RAPE most peasants right through those short pants of theirs!
hiryuu 04-04-05, 04:58 AM	Sadly, not true. For NPC classes and races, the max HP at lv.1 thing doesn't apply. Ergo, the average peasant has 2 or 3 HP. 1 or 2 for an elf, 3 or 4 for a dwarf/gnome. Also, average peasant has 10 AC (11 elf/gnome, 12 halfling) and +0 BAB (halfling, half-orc +1, gnome +2) Ergo, a cat will RAPE most peasants right through those short pants of theirs! Which is fine; I have seen a man mauled by a cat. Even watched the paramedics show up to bandage the guy and haul him to the hospital. The skin on his arms was nonexistent and most of his face was no longer intact.
Lina_Inverse 04-04-05, 05:50 AM	Sadly, not true. For NPC classes and races, the max HP at lv.1 thing doesn't apply. Ergo, the average peasant has 2 or 3 HP. 1 or 2 for an elf, 3 or 4 for a dwarf/gnome. Also, average peasant has 10 AC (11 elf/gnome, 12 halfling) and +0 BAB (halfling, half-orc +1, gnome +2) Ergo, a cat will RAPE most peasants right through those short pants of theirs! which make since.after all0exp people are nearly children.
devinmdp 04-04-05, 01:39 PM	Sadly, not true. For NPC classes and races, the max HP at lv.1 thing doesn't apply. Ergo, the average peasant has 2 or 3 HP. 1 or 2 for an elf, 3 or 4 for a dwarf/gnome. Also, average peasant has 10 AC (11 elf/gnome, 12 halfling) and +0 BAB (halfling, half-orc +1, gnome +2) Ergo, a cat will RAPE most peasants right through those short pants of theirs! First, it is almost unknown for the "average peasant" to have all stats average. One can assume that, on the average, in fact, at least one of Str, Dex, or Con will indeed have a bonus. Second, even at rolled hp the average peasant has 2.5 hp while the average cat has 2 hp. Doesn't sound like a big difference? It does when the cat is doing 1 damage per hit. In addition, that 0.5 hp represents a 25% advantage over the cat. It is proportionately equivalent to the difference between a fighter with 80 hp and a fighter with 100 hp. Third, the average peasant does 1D4 or 1D6 damage. He takes down the cat on a single hit. The cast has to hit 4 times on average to take out the human. I suspect that even in a situation where native intelligence and tactics have absolutely no bearing whatsoever, the cat will die the majority of the time. Devin
Evil Wizard 04-04-05, 03:20 PM	The rules bear out just fine, looking at it from all angles. A commoner can easily shoo off a wild cat with a stick; the cat's natural instincts will tell it to run from something aggressive and so much bigger than it, and one solid shot with a club will wipe out the kitty anyway. The commoner has reach on the cat, and cats are smart enough to understand this. Conversely, wild animals of any variety will tear you up if you let your guard down. Cats, rabbits, raccoons, possums, and other small critters will hurt you very badly if given the opportunity. Small animals prefer to run than fight, but push any of those into a corner and see if you don't walk away with some nasty bites and scratches. They don't usually get a chance to, but they can do a lot of damage to a person. In a fair fight, a commoner with a broom will beat a cat every time, just by virtue of reach and the cat's low HP. If an aggressive wild cat gets the drop on an unarmed commoner, the cat is going to claw his eyes out.
devinmdp 04-04-05, 03:23 PM	Exactly. In fact, I had forgotten the fact that a human gets an AoO on the cat, who has no reach. So in theory: 1. Human gets an AoO. If it hits fight is over. 2. Cat gets to attack. 3. Human attacks. Takes a 5 ft step back. 4. Human gets an AoO. 5. Cat attacks. So the human gets an extra attack every round.
Derren S. 04-04-05, 03:34 PM	Which is offset by the fact that the human has to hit a very high AC while the cat has a good attack bonus because of its size. In a duel a cat will defeat a commoner most of the time.
devinmdp 04-04-05, 03:46 PM	Which is offset by the fact that the human has to hit a very high AC while the cat has a good attack bonus because of its size. If human wins initiative, he will get to attack. He will have a 45% chance of hitting the cat (flat-footed cat). Then he takes a 5 ft step back. Cat now has to advance 10 ft to attack. Cat suffers an AoO. Cat has a 35% chance of being hit. Cat now gets a single paw swipe since it moved this round. Cat has a 70% chance to hit. At the end of round 1, human has a total of 64% chance to hit the cat for 1D6 damage (assume he has a club). This means on average human will have done 64% times 3.5 damage or 2.24 damage to the cat. On the average, cat will have done 0.7 damage to the human. Advantage significantly human. Nonetheless, if the battle continues: Round 2, human attacks. Has a 35% chance of hitting for 1D6. He then backs up 10 ft. Cat gets a single AoO with a 70% chance to do 1 damage. Human now gets AoO. Another 35% chance of hitting for 1D6. Cat gets a single claw attack with a 70% chance of hitting for 1 damage. By backing up 10 ft and accepting the AoO, the human effectively negates the cat's bite attack. On the other hand, if the cat wins initiative, then the odds change. Cat moves forward. Human gets AoO with a 35% chance to hit for 1D6. Cat attacks with 70% chance to hit for 1 damage. Human attacks with 35% chance to hit for 1D6 damage and backs up 10 ft. Cat gets AoO with 70% chance to hit for 1 damage. Cat advances. Human gets AoO with 35% chance to hit for 1D6 damage. Point is still that cat has to hit 4 times to take down human. Human hits just once to do same. If human wins initiative and can maneuver, cat is toast barring really bad luck. If cat wins initiative, it is still usually toast, but cat has a chance. Devin
Fallen_Universe 04-04-05, 04:04 PM	Couldn't the commoner grapple the cat and crush her little body? At least I would do that in RL :D
Salla 04-04-05, 04:40 PM	Which is offset by the fact that the human has to hit a very high AC while the cat has a good attack bonus because of its size. In a duel a cat will defeat a commoner most of the time. BOW TO YOUR FELINE MASTERS, MORTALS! mew >"<
Plastik 04-04-05, 05:05 PM	he point here is that usually a cat wouldnt engage a hman in a "fair fight". He'd use his Hide bonus to strike once every few rounds from the shadows, then dart away. And your "Average Commoner" dosn't have 10 Str. That's your Average Human. That includes the 18s and the 3s, and there's a lot more 18s than 3s IRL. Most comoners would probably be 8s unless specifically trained in fighting or weight training. I mean, sure, the Commoner still wins, but the cat's gonna have a chance.
Purkake 04-04-05, 05:16 PM	If human wins initiative, he will get to attack. He will have a 45% chance of hitting the cat (flat-footed cat). Then he takes a 5 ft step back. Cat now has to advance 10 ft to attack. Cat suffers an AoO. Cat has a 35% chance of being hit. Cat now gets a single paw swipe since it moved this round. Cat has a 70% chance to hit. At the end of round 1, human has a total of 64% chance to hit the cat for 1D6 damage (assume he has a club). This means on average human will have done 64% times 3.5 damage or 2.24 damage to the cat. On the average, cat will have done 0.7 damage to the human. Advantage significantly human. Nonetheless, if the battle continues: Round 2, human attacks. Has a 35% chance of hitting for 1D6. He then backs up 10 ft. Cat gets a single AoO with a 70% chance to do 1 damage. Human now gets AoO. Another 35% chance of hitting for 1D6. Cat gets a single claw attack with a 70% chance of hitting for 1 damage. By backing up 10 ft and accepting the AoO, the human effectively negates the cat's bite attack. On the other hand, if the cat wins initiative, then the odds change. Cat moves forward. Human gets AoO with a 35% chance to hit for 1D6. Cat attacks with 70% chance to hit for 1 damage. Human attacks with 35% chance to hit for 1D6 damage and backs up 10 ft. Cat gets AoO with 70% chance to hit for 1 damage. Cat advances. Human gets AoO with 35% chance to hit for 1D6 damage. Point is still that cat has to hit 4 times to take down human. Human hits just once to do same. If human wins initiative and can maneuver, cat is toast barring really bad luck. If cat wins initiative, it is still usually toast, but cat has a chance. Devin If the cat wins initiative, then the human wouldn't get the first AoO, since he is flat-footed. I would also consider giving the cat a suprise round since it can hide really well and suprise the commoner.
Derren S. 04-04-05, 05:27 PM	1. The cat is more likely to win initative 2. The cat has the ability to get a surprise round due to hide 3. The fight will certainly not start when both standig next to each other so the human can't make a 5 ft. step in the first round. When the cat wins the initative the human will most likely get only one attack before beeing killed. (Human commoners have 2 hp as the max HP at 1st level rule is only for PCs). And commoners certainly have no combat reflexes so no AoO when flat footed.
JakeQuistis 04-04-05, 06:38 PM	Now if only you could have a campaign in which a village is plagued by wild cats... "Help us! There are cats everywhere!" Guy gets killed by cat
jgbrowning 04-04-05, 09:21 PM	Plain cats are pretty tough compared to the average commoner, but give those purring felines some X-bows and watch the carnage! :D joe b.
obrysii 04-04-05, 09:44 PM	Also keep in mind that a cat has 3 attacks, each dealing 1 point of damage should they hit. Assuming all hits, that's 3 damage. It doesn't matter if you have 2 hp or 2.5 hp, that kind of damage will drop you.
weasel fierce 04-05-05, 12:44 AM	What if the cat is a cleric... ? ;)
Sildatorak 04-05-05, 01:27 AM	I'm going to assume that the commoner has a 3 10's and 3 11's array because it is equivalent to the standard array which could be applied to the cat as well. If the human can dump charisma, so can the cat. On the other hand, if the cat wins initiative, then the odds change. They sure do. Cat charges +6 to attack against AC 10 human with club, 85% hit chance commoner strikes back 35% hit chance5/6 chance of dealing 2+ damage=29% chance of victory commoner retreats, taking an AoO, 75% chance of 1 damage. After the first round there is a .85.71*.75 (cat hits, commoner doesn't nail cat, cat hits) or 45% chance that the cat has reduced the commoner to 0 hp vs. the commoners 29% chance. Since the cat goes first in round 2, but provokes an AoO for moving into the commoners space, the commoner will get another narrow chance to splatter the kitty, but the cat then has a 75% chance to finish the commoner off. That isn't even assuming a surprise round. Since a cat has hide +14 (+18 in grasslands), there is a dang good chance that the commoner will get charged and then face a full attack before he can do anything in retaliation.
Khalarak Ironclaw 04-05-05, 09:20 AM	These are all great points, but keep in mind that a cat isn't really capable of sophistocated tactics, and besides, its first instinct will be to run away. Its not going to risk itself or waste precious energy on a fight if it doesn't have to (animals are smart that way), and if the human is mean or foolish enough to corner the cat, then he deserves a good thrashing. Even a wild cat would only attack a human if it had no chance of avoiding combat, since predators generally prefer the odds to be stacked heavily in their favor. In short, a cat would probably whup a commoner if it came to that, but it very rarely would.
JakeQuistis 04-05-05, 09:29 AM	So then make a pack of awakened cats, bent on taking back their land from commoners.
Emir 04-05-05, 09:58 AM	I have no clue on WHY people actually post these things. I mean, who ever battled a cat ? some ppl have to much time on their hands.
The nameles one 04-05-05, 11:28 AM	I mean, who ever battled a cat ? Never tried to wash one, eh? Yeah, those nasty little creatures own humans anytime.
strenoth 04-05-05, 12:05 PM	I'm hardly an elite warrior or anything, but by DnD rules, I can appearently perform a 1-handed Improved Grapple that leaves me holding a cat and it unable to do anything about it. Cats should also have a listed weakness: when fighting any medium size or larger creature with hands, the medium sized creature may start an improved graple by making an unarmed Touch Attack, that if successful leaves the grappled but does not cause the medium sized creature to be grappled. This weakness would be called "By the scruff of the neck". cats shoudl also do subdual damage against a medium or larger creature.
Salla 04-05-05, 02:38 PM	cats shoudl also do subdual damage against a medium or larger creature. One of the designers (Sean K. Reynolds?) had an idea that, if you deal 'negative damage' with any attack, that single point of automatic damage should be nonlethal. It's not a bad idea, I think, for as rarely as it comes up.
Purkake 04-05-05, 02:58 PM	Grappeling isn't such a good idea, the cat can eighter use escape artist to escape or it can make a light weapon attack(claw) at -4 penalty. The human can only 1)take and AoO for starting grapple and have to hit 14 touch AC 2) can only do 1d3 non-lethal damage. Looks like it is better of with the club.
cheeskacat 04-05-05, 03:04 PM	i guess i should post this here since it makes sense. i noticed that a dog has a higher dex score then the cat, is this right? or is there an errata on that? it seems that it would be easier to hit a dog then a cat. if there is no errata should the spell be called dog's grace instead of cat's grace?
scwolf 04-05-05, 03:40 PM	One of the designers (Sean K. Reynolds?) had an idea that, if you deal 'negative damage' with any attack, that single point of automatic damage should be nonlethal. It's not a bad idea, I think, for as rarely as it comes up. That'd be the rule that Mr. Reynolds dubbed The Phil Athans Rule (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/philathansrule.html), after a WotC editor who once opined "Cats aren't domesticated, they're just not big enough to kill you." I somehow doubt that Mr. Athans has ever had a cat in his household.
JakeQuistis 04-05-05, 04:01 PM	Cats and dogs can deal lethal damage. I have proof, in the form of scratch/bite marks.
KP91 04-05-05, 04:18 PM	The average house cat can easily kill a wizard.