Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Singer_of_the_Song 03-12-07, 06:06 PM	This thread is for fixing the Monster Manual II (if anyone will join me :D ). I feel that there are a lot of cool monsters lurking in there, but a lot of them have problems with CR or abilities. Problematic/non-working abilities I will leave aside for now, but many monsters would be perfectly usable if their CR was adjusted to truly reflect their capabilities. My first couple of thoughts: Deathbringer: CR 17---->CR 13? Fiendwurm: CR 28------> CR 22? What do you guys think?
dok 03-12-07, 10:04 PM	I've tried using a great many monsters from the MM2, and my overall impression is that a lot of them need more than just a CR tweak. If you like the concept behind the monsters, you'd do better to identify the creatures you like, and re-make them to work better. To illustrate what I mean, let me offer three examples: Hellfire Wyrm http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm2_gallery/88268_620_69.jpg Huge Dragon [extraplanar] [fire] Hit Dice: 27d12+189 (365 hp) Initiative: +6 Speed: 60’, Burrow 30’, Fly 250’ (clumsy) Armor Class: 38 (-2 size, +24 natural, +4 deflection, +2 dexterity), Touch 14, Flat-footed 36 BAB/Grapple: +27/+48 Attack: Bite +38 (2d8+13) Full Attack: Bite +38 (2d8+13), 2 claws +33/+28 melee (2d6+6; 19-20/x3), 2 Wings +33 (1d8+6), 1 Tail +33 (2d6+19) Face/Reach: 15’/10’ Special Attacks: Breath Weapon, frightful presence, Impale (4d6+19), Improved Grab, spell-like abilities Special Qualities: DR 15/epic, fiendish form, fire subtype, Frightful presence, blind-sense, immunities, infernal aura, keen senses, SR 35, summon baatezu, Acid resistance 10, Cold resistance 10, electricity resistance 10. Saves: Fort +26, Ref +21, Will +27 Abilities: Str 37, Dex 14, Con 25, Int 23, Wis 26, Cha 28 Skills: Bluff +39, Concentration +37, Diplomacy +47, Disguise +39 (+44 to act in character), Intimidate +43, Jump +55, Knowledge (arcana, religion, planes) +36, Listen +38, Search +33, Sense Motive +35, Spellcraft +36, Spot +38 Feats: Cleave, Clinging Breath (Draconomicon), Flyby Attack, Improved Critical (Claw), Power Attack, Quicken spell-like ability, (Greater Teleport) Rapidstrike (claw, Draconomicon),Weapon Focus (Claw), Epic Feats: Automatic Quicken Spell-like ability (see below), Overwhelming Critical (Claw) Advancement: 28-40 HD (Huge) 41-54 HD (Gargantuan) 55-81 HD (Colossal) Alignment: Always Lawful Evil Challenge Rating: 22 Eons ago, the dragon goddess Tiamat ruled over Avernus, first plane of Hell. After ages of political wrangling, she eventually agreed to yield her position as Queen of Hell, and accept a lesser title of Defender of Hell. To show her lack of animosity over her change in station, she made a gift to the nine rulers of Hell: each was presented with a Hellfire Wyrm who swore absolute fealty. Some rumors say that there are only nine Hellfire Wyrms in total, while others say that their numbers are closer to a few hundred. The natural attacks of this creature count as Magic, Epic, Lawful, and Evil. Blindsense (Ex): The Hellfire Wyrm can pinpoint creatures within a distance of 60 feet. Opponents the Hellfire Wyrm can’t actually see still have total concealment against the Hellfire Wyrm. Breath Weapon (Su): 14d10 Hellfire (½ fire, ½ infernal power), or 18d8 unholy blight (½ damage to neutral creatures, no damage to evil creatures or objects) every 1d4 rounds, Reflex DC 30, Con based. The Hellfire can also catch flammable items on fire. Fiendish form (Sp): At will, assume the form of a tiefling or devil, as per the shapechange spell, with a Caster level of 22. Frightful Presence (Ex): Whenever the Hellfire Wyrm attacks, charges, uses its breath weapon, or flies overhead, creatures with less HD than the Hellfire Wyrm within a radius of 200' must roll a Will Saving throw (DC 32) or become shaken for 5d6 rounds. Dragons ignore this ability, as do Devils. Immunities (Ex): Hellfire Wyrms are immune to poison, sleep, and paralysis. Additionally, because of the Fire subtype, they are immune to Fire as well. Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the Hellfire Wyrm must either hit a creature one size smaller than it with a bite attack, or two sizes smaller with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Impale (Ex): If the Hellfire Wrym can score a pin against an opponent, it immediately impales the creature on the long spines along its back. The creature suffers 4d6+19 damage, the Hellfire Wyrm is no longer treated as grappling the Pinned opponent, and the Pinned opponent can escape by making two successful Grapple checks. Infernal aura (Sp): This acts as an Unholy Aura, plus all creatures in a 5’ radius around the hellfire wyrm take 5d4 fire damage. The Hellfire Wyrm can suppress this aura as a free action. The modifiers to AC & saves are already figured into the statistics block above. This effect can be dispelled, but the Hellfire Wyrm can begin it again as a free action, with a caster level of 22. Keen Senses (Ex): The Hellfire Wyrm sees four times as well a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision out to 120 feet. Spell-like abilities (Sp): The following spell-like abilities are usable as a free action, once per round, with no limit on daily uses unless otherwise noted: desecrate, misdirection (DC 21), pyrotechnics (DC 21), sending, poison (DC 31, 3/day), contagion (DC 23, 3/day). The following spell-like abilities are usable at will, unless otherwise noted – blasphemy, charm monster (DC 23), dominate person (DC 24), dictum, fire storm, greater dispelling, hold monster (DC 24), greater invisibility, greater teleport, suggestion (DC 22), true seeing, unhallow, wall of fire. Caster level 22. Summon Baatezu (Sp): 1/day, barbazu, cornugon, or gelugon, caster level 27. Skills: The Hellfire Wrym receives skill points as an Outsider. New Feat Automatic Quicken Spell-like Ability (Epic) Prerequisites: Quicken Spell-like Ability, Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks Benefit: the subject may now use any spell-like ability based on 0-3rd level spells as a free action, with a limit of one per round. This does not change any daily limits on spell-like abilities. House Rule Overwhelming Critical epic feat: x2 critical multipliers increase to x3, x3 increases to x5, and x4 increases to x7. "Burning Spirit" http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm2_gallery/88268_620_42.jpg Medium Undead [fire] Hit Dice: 21d12 (136 hp) Initiative: +10 Speed: 80' Fly (perfect) Armor Class: 22 (+6 dexterity, +6 deflection), touch 22, flat-footed 16 BAB/Grapple: +10 / - Attack: Incorporeal touch +16 (1d8+ energy drain + 2d6 + infuse) Full Attack: 2 Incorporeal Touches +16 (1d8+ energy drain + 2d6 + infuse) Special Attacks: Energy Drain, Infuse, Animate Possessed Special Qualities: Fire subtype, Incorporeal subtype, DR 10/Silver, SR 28, Turn Resistance +2 Saves: +7 Fotitude, +11 Reflex, +16 Will Abilities: S --, D 22, C --, I 14, W 14, Ch 23 Skills: Bluff +30, Hide, +30, Intimidate +22, Listen +28, Speak Languages (Common, plus any 7), Spot +28, Tumble +30 Feats: Ability Focus (infuse), Alertness, Blind-Fight, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Mobility, Spring Attack Environment: any Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 16 Treasure: none Alignment: any evil Advancement: 22-42 HD (Medium) The Burning Spirit prefers to use hit & run tactics, using Spring Attack to strike from within surfaces & retreat. If it can successfully infuse a target, it may attempt to Bluff the target's allies for a few rounds to increase the odds of killing it's victim. Energy Drain(Su): Any creature struck by the Burning Spirit's Incorporeal Touch attack gains 2 negative levels. Infuse(Su): When a Burning Spirit hits a humanoid or monstrous humanoid that is no more than two size categories larger than itself with its incorporeal touch attack, the opponent must make a successful Will save (DC 28) or become infused with the Burning Spirit. A successful saving throw means the subject protects the subject from the Infuse ability of that pariticular Burning Spirit for 24 hours. The effects of infusion on the opponent are similar to those of a magic jar spell, except as noted here. Upon infusion, the effigy gains control of the infused creature. While infused, it uses the body's physical ability scores but its own mental ability scores. It also uses whatever attack forms the subject has available. Such attacks still do 2d6 points of additional fire damage, but they do not bestow negative levels. An infused Burning Spirit automatically deals fire damage and inflicts energy drain on its host body each round. The subject dies upon reaching -10 hit points or dropping below 1st level. At that point, the body becomes a flaming corpse. The DC is Charisma-based. Spells & attacks against an Infused creature do not harm the Burning Spirit. The only exceptions are area effect spells that specifically harm undead and/or evil creatures, such as Holy Smite or Holy Word. A Dispel Evil spell will end the Infusion and force the Burning Spirit out of the infused creature, as will a successful turning attempt. (however, turning the Burning Spirit while it is Infusing another creature has no other effects) Additionally, each round the victim of the Infuse may roll a special opposed Will saving throw (modified by Charisma instead of Wisdom) to force the Burning Spirit out. The Burning Spirit's modifier to this roll is +20. Success forces the Burning Spirit out of the victim, but has no other effects. The victim may still be Infused again. Only living creatures can be infused. Constructs & Elementals cannot be Infused. Undead cannot be Infused, but if the Burning Spirit kills a creature & animates them (see below) the Burning Spirit may remain infused with the creature. Animate Possessed(Su): If a creature dies while being Infused, the corpse bursts into white-hot flames, all the flesh burning off in a single round. The following round, the remains are immediately animated; apply the Skeleton template to the subject. The Burning Spirit controls & occupies this skeleton as if it were an Infused host, adding 2d6 fire damage to each of its natural attacks. The skeleton continues to suffer 2d6 fire damage each round, but also heals 10 damage each round from the negative levels. A successful turning attempt versus the effigy will end the Infusion & cause the skeleton to collapse into inanimate remains. Famine Spirit http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm2_gallery/88268_620_48.jpg Medium Undead Hit Dice: 32d12+96 (282) Initiative: +4 Speed: 60' Armor Class: 18 (+8 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 18 BAB/Grapple: +16/+27 Attack: Bite +19 (4d6+3/19-20/vorpal) Full Attack: Bite +19 (4d6+3/19-20/vorpal) and 2 claws +17 (1d6+1) Face/Reach: 5'/'5 Special Attacks: Aura of hunger, vorpal bite, Oversized Maw, Sharp Teeth. Special Qualities: DR 15/slashing or piercing, Ethereal Jaunt, Fast healing 10, scent, see invisibility, undead traits, Powerful Build, Girth Saves: +10 Fort, +10 Reflex, +20 Will Abilities: S 16, D 11, C -, I 14, W 15, Ch 15 Skills: Balance +35, Climb +38, Jump +50, Listen +37, Search +37, Spot +37 Feats: Blindfight, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Grapple (B), Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Improved Sunder, Improved Trip, Multiattack, Power Attack. Environment: any Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (1-3, plus 7-12 ghasts and 12-22 ghouls) Challenge Rating: 15 Treasure: none Alignment: any evil Advancement: 33-64 HD (Medium) The famine spirit is a grossly obese humanoid/monstrous humanoid with a mouth full of razor-sharp teeth. Famine Spirits are said to be created from mortals with terrible avarice, & greed. Others say Famine Spirits come from those who die in terrible poverty, hunger, and unfulfilled wants. (Still others claim that either Orcus or the Devil Prince Mammon had a hand in these creatures' creation...) Aura of Hunger(Su): All living creatures within a 60' radius emanation from the Famine Spirit must roll a Will saving throw (DC 28) or suffer a –4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks. Additionally, all living creatures within the area must also roll a Fortitude saving throw (DC 28) or become exhausted. Characters who successfully make their saving throws are immune to the effects for 24 hours; The effects of a failed saving throw persist for one hour, but can also be removed by a heal spell. The DC is Charisma-based. Create Spawn(Su): Normally, the Famine Spirit eats creatures it kills. The Famine Spirit can completely devour the remains of a Medium-sized creature in one minute. Any humanoid creatures killed by the Famine Spirit who are not eaten will rise in 24 hours as either ghouls, (if they possessed 3 HD or less) ghasts, (if they had 4-8 HD) or Famine Spirits. (if they had 9 or more hit dice) [i]Ethereal Jaunt (Sp): 3/day, as per the spell, Caster Level 20. See Invisibility (Sp): as per the spell, always active. Caster level 20. Powerful Build(Ex): for purposes of grapples, trips, bull rushes, sunders & disarms, as well as determining what weapons the creature can use, the Famine Spirit is treated as one size larger than it actually is. Oversized Maw(Ex): The famine spirit can open its mouth to seemingly unreal sizes. As a result, its bite attack is treated as belonging to a creature two sizes larger for purposes of damage & Sunder attempts. This stacks with Powerful Build; thus, when attempting to Sunder with a Bite, modify the attempt as if the Famine Spirit was Gargantuan. Vorpal Bite(Su): On an attack roll of 'natural 20', followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit, the famine spirit's bite attack severs the head of a Large or smaller opponent. Furthermore, if the Famine Spirit begins a round with an opponent pinned, they may automatically sever the head with a standard action. Sharp Teeth (Ex): When attempting a Sunder action with a bite, the targeted object's hardness is halved. Girth(Ex): Because of its gross obesity, the famine spirit gains +3 hit points per hit die. I've got some ideas for the Fihyrs as well, but I haven't gotten past brainstorming yet. Someone else remade the Deathbringer not long ago... search the archives & you'll turn it up. The Linnorms were also on my "to-do" list of monsters needing work.
Singer_of_the_Song 03-12-07, 11:21 PM	I've tried using a great many monsters from the MM2, and my overall impression is that a lot of them need more than just a CR tweak. If you like the concept behind the monsters, you'd do better to identify the creatures you like, and re-make them to work better. What exactly is so wrong with the monsters from the MMII?
Kain Darkwind 03-13-07, 12:03 AM	What exactly is so wrong with the monsters from the MMII? Well, a lot of them have Achilles' Heels. For instance, take the Mountain Giant. CR 26 aside, it has a Will save of +10. A simple charm monster ends this battle, probably by 10th level. But if you don't have a simple Will save spell that one-shots it, it is going to be a seriously dangerous battle. Then just look at its abilities. Summon Giants? Why the hell should it be able to? Str 43? Higher than any giant...until you consider its size. Even an ogre theoretically advanced to Colossal size would have 45 strength. It's pathetically weak for its size, the one thing that giants never are. There are plenty of these examples. The hellfire wyrm was another good one. I would have remodeled it as a planar dragon and given it age categories. The linorms are also disappointing. So many of these creatures are just not well thought out. A half-troll barbazu? (or is that in the FF? Either way it is a horrible idea) The MM2 is in serious need of a revision. Probably even moreso than the MM 3.0 ever was.
dok 03-13-07, 12:34 AM	What exactly is so wrong with the monsters from the MMII? Well, Sean K. Reynold's critique of the Effigy (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/highlevelchallenges.html) prompted my re-write above. The Orcwort is a fascinating concept creature, but any party capable of fighting the Orcwort (CR 20) would have no problem dispatching the Wortlings (CR 3), and any party even remotely threatened by Wortlings would have no chance against the OrcWort. The Great Fihyr is CR 15 (allegedly) with lesser Fihyrs being CR 3; again, if you fight one, the other is either no challenge or lethal. Plus, the Fihyr is simply awful: using its abilities by the RAW either don't work, or are near useless, and they're not even remotely challenging for their CR. The Fiendwurm, while frightening-sounding, has a special ability to belch out demons of whose CRs are more than ten lower than its own. This is dangerous? The Abeil are usable, with CRs ranging from 2 to 12 meaning a 7th level party could be challenged trying to fight the hive and face the queen. The Juggernaut, though allegedly terrifying, gets stopped dead in its tracks by a wall of force. The Elemental Weirds all cast as 18th level Sorcerers, have 15 hit dice, but are only CR 12. The Bone Naga has 15 HD, casts as a 14th level Sorcerer, and is CR 11. The Immoth has 10 HD, casts as a 12th level Sorcerer (with 3d4+2 quickened spells) and is CR 9. The Tetramorph is a CR 16 creature that will slaughter most non-epic parties. Meanwhile, the Gray Linnorm (CR 20?) has 13 HD, weak DR, casts spells as a 17th level Cleric, and has a breath weapon that deals 6d8 damage. The Dread Linorm has 20 HD, casts as an 18th level caster, and is somehow CR 25. The Corpse Tearer sports 28 HD, has a breathweapon that deals Disease with a 12 hour onset time(!), casts spells as a 17th level Cleric, uses SLAs with a caster level of 15, and is somehow CR 28. The "Epic" monsters were created prior to the ELH release, so they don't use the Epic rules, don't have Epic Feats, and aren't designed around Epic Challenges. The Crystal Dragons were created without using the rules for psionics. (and have not been updated using the 3.5 XPH rules) There are a lot of creatures built on the same base as a Noble Salamander (CR 9-12, 15 Outsider HD) that are simply a lot stronger than their CR suggests. A Windgost has an AC of 21, 18 hit dice, no DR, one bite, and no offensive SLAs, and is supposedly CR 15. The original Famine Spirit had an AC of 18, no stat above 16, no DR, no SR, no offensive SLAs, no ranged attacks, no alternative movement modes, but a 10% chance with the bite to trigger a Vorpal effect; with 208 hit points it was judged CR 19. The Deathbringer, a 30 HD undead, has no DR, no SR, and 195 hit points; it can deal 1d8+10 hit points of damage in a 20 radius burst that also heals itself as a free action, but only every 1d4 rounds. By which time it will most certainly bedead if it's CR of 17 is taken seriously. The Mountain Giant has a CR of 26, no SR and a Will save of +10; a dominate monster cast from a Scroll has a better than 50/50 chance of working. The Phoenix has a CR of 24, 150 hit points, an AC of 23, and the highest DC offensively it can muster is 22; that's a Reflex save, BTW, because at CR 24, how common are rings of evasion? The Half-Golem is probably the worst-written template, simply because it's intent (gothic horror creations of a mad "scientist" Mage) is ignored in favor of numerous players seeing a cheap way to get massive stat bumps. (the Warbeast gets an honorable mention though, for breaking the incredibly basic rule of "no odd-numbered ability score increases") I'd talk about the Psurlons or the Neogi or the Grell, but they've already been updated in Lords of Madness. I'd mention the Thri-kreen, but they were updated in the XPH. I'd mention the Legendary Animals, but they were covered in Masters of the Wild and the ELH. That give you a sense of what's wrong with the monsters in the MM2?
Singer_of_the_Song 03-13-07, 12:45 AM	Snip Hahaha yes my friend, very much so. Thank you for taking the time to show me what a tremendously flawed product it is (thanks also to Kain). At this point, WoTC really should just do a 3.5 revision of it.
Kain Darkwind 03-13-07, 12:50 AM	Hahaha yes my friend, very much so. Thank you for taking the time to show me what a tremendously flawed product it is (thanks also to Kain). At this point, WoTC really should just do a 3.5 revision of it. Absolutely agree with that, 100%. Because while the MM2 monsters compose the most mechanically flawed creatures in the game, they are also some of the best creatures flavorwise. I'd much rather have workable stats for a mountain giant and the linnorms than for an arrow demon.
Singer_of_the_Song 03-13-07, 12:54 AM	Absolutely agree with that, 100%. Because while the MM2 monsters compose the most mechanically flawed creatures in the game, they are also some of the best creatures flavorwise. I'd much rather have workable stats for a mountain giant and the linnorms than for an arrow demon. My thoughts exactly. There are a lot of great critters in there, especially ones from 2E I would hate to see go to waste.
Angelflesh 03-13-07, 01:29 AM	The Bone Naga has 15 HD, casts as a 14th level Sorcerer, and is CR 11. The Bone Naga has been reprinted, but turned into a template instead of a creature. It's in a Faerun book.
dok 03-13-07, 01:38 AM	To make this thread a valuable resource, I suggest the following actions: 1.) Post monsters from the book that you want to see re-done. Fihyrs are on my list, along with Linnorms. Kain also wants Linorms and a Mountain Giant. The OP mentioned the Deathbringer. What else do people want to see "salvaged" from that book? 2.) Start listing (and linking to, when possible) instances where monsters have been updated. The Grell, Psurlons, and Neogi were all converted in Lords of Madness; the Thri-Kreen were converted in the XPH. Legendary animals were included in the ELH and converted there. The Bone Naga is now a template in a FR book, but which one? I know someone has done top-notch conversion on the Gem Dragons, but I don't have a link. Likewise, I know someone at Dicefreaks was working the Hellfire Wyrm as a Planar Dragon. One reason why I posted my revised versions was so that other folks could use them, and to put them where people would actually look for them. So: what do people want converted, and what's already been done?
Singer_of_the_Song 03-13-07, 02:56 AM	1. I'll divide the monsters I want salvaged into two categories: those I know to be "classics" from previous editions and I think must not be lost, and other ones I thought were nifty. Not all may need work, I haven't looked at them closely enough. Classics: banshee, catoblepas, celestials (all), crimson death, death knight, fihyr, hook horror, ixitxachitl, morkoth, myconid, phoenix, yugoloths (all). Others: Automatons, avolakia, bladeling, braxat, bronze serpent, clockwork horrors, darktentacles, deathbringer, ethereal slayer, linnorm, moonbeast & mooncalf, nightmare beast, rampager, rukarazyll, vaporighu. The monsters in italics are those which I have used before and seemed alright...although of course they may not be and I simply did not play them enough to spot problems/weaknesses. Those in bold are those which I have used and found to be wanting to various degrees. 2. -The abyssal maw, abyssal ravager, abyssal skulker, jarilith, jovoc, kelvezu, palrethee, and zovvut (demons) all had their "correct" CR's posted in Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss. Not all CRs were changed. - The amnizu and malebranche (devils) are updated & redone in Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells. - The neogi, psurlon, and grell were redone in Lords of Madness. - The thri-kreen were updated in the XPH. - An updated arcanoloth was posted in Dungeon #144 (but with class levels as an NPC), and James Jacobs said he wanted to post the seperate update in a future issue. - I feel like the bladeling was redone somewhere but I can't remember.
Arivia 03-13-07, 03:01 AM	The Bone Naga is now a template in a FR book, but which one? Serpent Kingdoms.
Kain Darkwind 03-13-07, 03:28 AM	With the linorms and the hellfire wyrm, I would like the end result to be a dragon with age categories, even if modified from the true dragon categories. I would like to make sure that all the giants (firbolg, formorian and true giants) are given accurate (in comparison to the MM 3.5) stats. The dinosaurs need to be redone with realistic strength and Constitution scores. If a 15 ton creature like a diplodicus can have a strength score of 44 (recent Dungeon magazine), then a 120+ ton creature like a seismosaurus needs to have a higher strength score than 40. I also question making any Huge dinosaur weaker than a human for its size. For instance, an average Huge human would have 26 strength. An allosaurus has 24. Same for the Megalodon (shark). A theoretical Gargantuan human would have 34 strength. The meglodon has 31. The Guardinals and yugoloths could use some 3.5-ification. I'd like the half-troll barbazu to be stricken from the game entirely, although I think they might be in the Fiend Folio. :D Other than that, I'd mainly second what Singer of the Song has already said.
LivingShadow 03-13-07, 01:42 PM	The hammerer was updated on a minature card. The pulverizer needs a tweak though. Mutters to self about fighting 18 at once.
DungeonMaster 03-13-07, 02:58 PM	The MM2 is no worse than the MM3 or 4. I agree some things need to be adjusted for, primarily CR but many of the criticism leveled here is not well thought out. The Orcwort is a fascinating concept creature, but any party capable of fighting the Orcwort (CR 20) would have no problem dispatching the Wortlings (CR 3), and any party even remotely threatened by Wortlings would have no chance against the OrcWort. There's nothing at all wrong with including many smaller fodder creatures with a single large creature. What you're stating is a design preference, to each his own. Tolkien threw orcs in with a balrog, I'm in his camp. The Juggernaut, though allegedly terrifying, gets stopped dead in its tracks by a wall of force. This makes no sense at all. The Elemental Weirds all cast as 18th level Sorcerers, have 15 hit dice, but are only CR 12. They can't move from their pool. Extremely powerful for their level in terms of spellcasting but ultimately very weak if a 12+ party actively seeks to destroy one. The Bone Naga has 15 HD, casts as a 14th level Sorcerer, and is CR 11. The Immoth has 10 HD, casts as a 12th level Sorcerer (with 3d4+2 quickened spells) and is CR 9. Monsters need not have the same level of spellcasting as PCs for them to be defeated. Even if the Immoth had 100 quickened spells it wouldn't matter, even against the standard party (Clr+wiz+fig+rog) the PCs will get off a equal or more number of spells in the same round because they have 2 spellcasters vs. 1. The Tetramorph is a CR 16 creature that will slaughter most non-epic parties. Ridiculous. It has no intelligence and can be shot to death by a one-eyed venerable human commoner suffering from rickets with a bow and no proficiency. Meanwhile, the Gray Linnorm (CR 20?) has 13 HD, weak DR, casts spells as a 17th level Cleric, and has a breath weapon that deals 6d8 damage. The Dread Linorm has 20 HD, casts as an 18th level caster, and is somehow CR 25. The Corpse Tearer sports 28 HD, has a breathweapon that deals Disease with a 12 hour onset time(!), casts spells as a 17th level Cleric, uses SLAs with a caster level of 15, and is somehow CR 28. The linnorms are quite well balanced. The corpse tearer's breath weapon is paralysis or disease. The gray linnorm's melts weapons and armor - which can be your magic sword if it's first dispelled. The SLA of the larger ones can each be quickened 1/day. The Epic rules are, incidentally, terrible and shouldn't be referenced at all, ever. A Windgost has an AC of 21, 18 hit dice, no DR, one bite, and no offensive SLAs, and is supposedly CR 15. Uh... it can cast anti-magic field at will? What's your AC in an anti-magic field? The average level 15 party will be seriously threatened by a lone windghost if not wiped out. You are correct that the famine spirit, mountain giant and death bringer need much lower CR. The Phoenix has a CR of 24, 150 hit points, an AC of 23, and the highest DC offensively it can muster is 22; that's a Reflex save, BTW, because at CR 24, how common are rings of evasion? The phoenix is ridiculously powerful, under CRed. Su planar travel, heal at will, immolation, empowered/maximized fire-seeds at will - you better hope you save. There are problems, no doubt. But no more/less than say shrieking terrors, drowned and the innumerable other non-core monsters produced.
dok 03-13-07, 09:03 PM	<snip> Unproductive bickering. Don't feed the trolls. </snip>
Kain Darkwind 03-13-07, 09:16 PM	Dok, I agree with your points nearly 100%. The only sticking factor for me is your suggestion that an NPC human sorcerer 12 is a CR 12. I think it has been proven for sometime now that a single NPC is not a CR equal to its level. Inferior equipment aside, they lack the ability to provide multiple threats and defense to a party, and generally do not last more than a few rounds. In contrast, the CR for a party of NPCs working together is more than just the sum of its parts. But assessing EL and CR for multiple threats of differing CR is a different thing. A single creature's CR should reflect that single creature in a combat against the PCs. A 1st level NPC might be CR=Level. However, by 10th level, a 10th level NPC is no longer providing a challenge equal to its class level. While there isn't a hard and fast rule, I would say that every 5 levels, an NPC loses -1 off its CR, so a 5th level NPC would be CR 4, a 10th level NPC would be CR 8, and a 20th level NPC would be CR 16. Even 9th level spells aren't going to pimp an entire 16th level party. Now, I don't know that you could extend that pattern into infinity. A single 50th level NPC might actually provide more than a CR 30. But I don't think it does. After all, if a 40HD dragon can only manage a CR 26, how is a 50HD humanoid supposed to do that much better?
AllisterH 03-13-07, 10:11 PM	It seems to me the problem is the Achilles Heel. If you know about it, the monster in question gets one-shotted but if you don't you get worked over. Perhaps that should be a rule? No achilles Heel unless to get to it, requires massive preparation.
DungeonMaster 03-13-07, 10:13 PM	It's not a design preference, it's a design rule. Wrong, there's no such rule and you have no such quote. You could throw an army of orcs with a balor against the PCs. The orcs are indeed no threat at all but the moronic idea that you only face monsters appropriate to your level has no place in the rules - at all. And it certainly has no place in fantasy, which you seem to think is dissociate and I disagree fully and completely. It would be as though your world had no ecology, you simply "happen" to meet only monsters that pose a reasonable threat - and never with hordes of underlings. Sorry dok, you missed the boat somewhere. It doesn't bother you at all that a CR 11 monster that's supposed to be an unstoppable force that crushes everything in its path could be boxed in and rendered hamless in 4 rounds by a lone 9th wizard with a few scrolls? No it doesn't bother me at all that you can stop a juggernaut for 9 minutes. The thing can trap said wizard in a forcecage that lasts 36 hours. This monster is too powerful not less in my opinion. And I have no idea what game you've been playing dok but wizards stop monsters in a single spell in D&D, get used to it, they've been doing it for generations. That's *what they do*. How, exactly, is facing 9th level spells "very weak" if you're a 12th level party? Well if you beleive 3.5 rules so wholeheartedly you can hit 9th level parties with 9th level spells according to the traps sections. Automatic resets and all. Do you consider Noble Salamanders to be weak? Same CR, same number of hit dice, less special abilities and no spellcasting. Are they 'weak'? Noble salamanders are CR 9 have good spell like abilities and are pretty damn tough. They can also um, move you know? So a 12th level NPC sorcerer is allegedly CR 12, but an Immoth, with more hit points, better AC, better ability scores, and the ability to drop a minimum of 5 quickened spells (up to 6th level) is CR 9? Hmm. Interesting reasoning you got going there. You really don't understand the CR system dok. Let me explain: a 12th level sorceror has gear, much more gear than an immoth. That simple. That's the basis of the argument of comparing NPCs to monsters, they have more stuff to make up the difference. You can craft a very potent 9th level wizard/sorceror/etc... if you pick gear carefully. So a monster that can cast disintegrate followed by a Quickened globe of invulnerability is a "moderate challenge" for a group of 9th level PCs, and should be defeatable even by a 6th or 7th level party. And you believe this? Why not? 6th or 7th level parties will likely take casualties but it's not unreasonable. 9th level parties will take it rather easily. Does you group not know what dispel magic is? or grappling spell casters? It has no concentration skill even. Wow. You're so right. It's like one of us didn't even bother to read the monster. At least I read the PHB before making inane comments. It has no abilities beyond 240 ft. It can't even see beyond that range, has no intelligence. It has an AC of 3. 3 . You do realise bows have a range of 10 range increments right? You can shoot from 1000+ feet away with a bow right? That spells have ranges like medium and long not just for *show*? My 16th level PCs would total this ooze, in a matter of rounds, without a single casualty. Yes, the Corpse Tearer has two breath weapons, but that wasn't what I was poitning out: one of them is totally useless. That was my point. Having two breath weapons when one has no immediate effect and can be totally negated by a trivial, low-level spell is almost like having one breath weapon. Uh... you don't play a lot of D&D do you Dok? Metalic dragons have had secondary breath weapons for generations now, many of which are very situational. And most breath weapons are negated by 3rd level magic such as protection from elements. What in fact is your point? Because all I'm seeing is inexperience with the way the game works. How do you even know you're diseased before the fact by the way? The grey linnorm can quite casually disjunction your PCs and melt their precious now-non-magical gear quite easily. It can even dispel then melt your best armor or weapon. High level PCs will often use non-magical gear that is enchanted by spells such as holy sword, greater magic weapon, etc... It's not fun, even remotely. is too precious. You do understand that we're talking about the 3.5 rules here, right? No we're not. You're skipping in between wall of force vs. 3 & 3.5 (no dome) and so it's perfectly legitimate to describe the rules as they were written. If 3.5 screwed them afterwards that's 3.5's problem. Just use them as originally intended. the average 15th level party can deal 153 hp of damage to an AC 21 creature, at range, even if it's in an antimagic field. Perhaps if they all pull out bows and it's at great range. That's guaranteed the best way of dealing with the monster. It can hide, has fast healing and doesn't have an AC of 3 and no intelligence. A good DM can use this monster effectively, even devastatingly. It isn't broken in any way shape or form, or under-CRed. (su) Planar Travel = run away at will. Nope. Flee then return 1 round later fully healed. That's why it doesn't need ranks in concentration. It doesn't sit there to take more damage. I suspect a well made fighter or Rogue could do it all alone. Sure, go make one and I'll run the phoenix. I guarantee you'll lose. 100% chance at that. 'holly berry' option, that requires a seperate standard action to trigger, dealing 1d8+20 damage for each 'berry' (which cannot be thrown more than 5 ft. but must be 'placed' and detonated) Oh, and that Reflex DC 21, which is for half damage because no one at level 19+ would bother with a ring of evasion. You're pretty crazy dok if you think (1d8+20)*1.5*8 reflex save half isn't a good ability. That's 294 damage. It's basically save-or-die by fire. You can disagree all you want but only 3 classes out of 11 have good reflex saves, rogue, bard and monk (wildrogue in 3.5). I say that can hurt, a LOT. Yes, there are one or two in MM3 or FF or MM4 or Libram Mortis or Lords of Madness or Draconomicon. But the percentage of duds in MM2 is staggaringly high, and the errors are all over the place. I disagree, but that's the subject of another thread. Your solopsism on what you consider "experienced" and "unexperienced" design is really rather quaint considering all the things you miss in your analyses.
Adolfo_Mondschein 03-14-07, 12:03 AM	What about the Asperi's size? According to the book its starts large and if you advance it it becomes medium... I'm guessing they got them mixed around... They should start medium and become large right? Also, what do you think their level adjustment would be if they could be played as PC's or used for cohorts?
runestar 03-14-07, 12:27 AM	Nope. Flee then return 1 round later fully healed. That's why it doesn't need ranks in concentration. It doesn't sit there to take more damage. That seems to make for a very annoying battle. Party reduces phoenix to single digit hp in 1 concentrated attack, phoenix planeshifts away to heal, comes back to do battle. PCs 1-shot it again, it flees to lick its wounds... Seems like it boils down to whether the party can take it down in 1 round or not...:confused: The phoenix will be constantly using its standard action to port away, leaving no room for attacking at all... Under 3E rules, a "hemisphere" casting would completely trap a Juggernaut with no option for escape. I wasn't aware that a wall of force could be cast as a hemisphere...:P Also, I think the adamantine horror deserves a mention, no? Since constructs have skill points in 3.5, this means that it can finally get ranks in concentration (the 3.5 update did not give it concentration as a class skill, but it can always opt to pump the skill at cross-class rate, since casting while entangled is just a crummy dc15 check). This means that tanglefoot rods no longer work against it...:P
dok 03-14-07, 01:48 AM	Sorry dok, you missed the boat somewhere. ... And I have no idea what game you've been playing dok but wizards stop monsters in a single spell in D&D, get used to it, they've been doing it for generations. That's *what they do*. ... You really don't understand the CR system dok. ... Uh... you don't play a lot of D&D do you Dok? ... Because all I'm seeing is inexperience with the way the game works. ... I disagree, but that's the subject of another thread. Your solopsism on what you consider "experienced" and "unexperienced" design is really rather quaint considering all the things you miss in your analyses. This is off-topic, and with your ad-hominem attacks, unproductive. You're not interested in discussion, you're looking to engage in snark & name calling. Your arguments have been inconsistent, circumstantial, and often ignoring or misinterpreting rules. I'm not interested in feeding trolls any longer. I will continue to post to this thread redesigned monsters from the MM2, because that's what this thread was started for. If you'd like to redesign a monster from that book & post it here for critique, please feel free.
Azar_of_Faerun 03-14-07, 02:42 AM	You've got to stop imposing your opinion as fact.
runestar 03-14-07, 06:12 AM	You are aware of the cr revisions in FC:1, right? IIRC, abyssmal ravager is now cr3 and kelvezu is cr14. Some of them were quite drastic, but nowhere as extreme as those in FF(cr25 revised downwards to cr17?):eek:
Kain Darkwind 03-14-07, 07:55 AM	You are aware of the cr revisions in FC:1, right? IIRC, abyssmal ravager is now cr3 and kelvezu is cr14. Some of them were quite drastic, but nowhere as extreme as those in FF(cr25 revised downwards to cr17?):eek: Misleading. A creature with a high CR reduced to 17 is just as large of a drop as a creature with a smaller CR reduced a few points. The scale by which they were off would be similar. And compare the mountain giant's CR to what it likely deserves. I bet CR 17 is highly optimistic. As for other individuals, who aren't contributing to the thread except to throw in their personal attacks, no one wants to hear your unproductive and derailing 2 cents. If you have problems with a specific revision feel free to bring them up. If you have problems with the fact that we are attempting a revision, feel free to keep it to yourself. You're entitled to your opinion but not to the point where it derails this thread.
dok 03-14-07, 08:27 PM	Here's a stab at a 3.5, CR 16 Deathbringer: Deathbringer Large Undead Hit Dice: 16d12 +80 (184hp) Initiative: +4 Speed: 50 ft. Armor Class: 33 (-1 size, +4 dex, +16 natural, +4 armor), touch 13, flat-foot 29 Face/Reach: 10 ft. / 10 ft. BAB/Grapple: +16*/+26 Attack: Large Flail +23 (2d6+10) Full Attack: Large Flail +19/+14/+9/+4 (2d6+10) and large flail +19/+14/+9 (2d6+7) Special Attacks: Graymantle, Greater Dispelling Special Qualities: DR 15/silver, Martial Blessing, SR 28, Unholy Toughness. Saving throws: +5 Fortitude, +9 Reflex, +12 Will Abilities: Strength 22 Dexterity 19 Constitution - Intelligence 13 Wisdom 14 Charisma 21 Skills: Concentration +24, Intimidate +24, Jump +25, Listen +21, Spot +21, Feats: Combat Brute (CW), Combat Expertise, Greater Two Weapon Fighting(B), Greater Weapon Focus: Flail (B), Greater Weapon Specialization: Flail (B), Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder (B), Improved Trip (+14), Improved Two Weapon Fighting (B), Power Attack, Shock Trooper (CW), Two Weapon Fighting(B), Weapon Focus: flail (B), Weapon Specialization: flail (B) (SRD friendly variant: replace underlined feats with Combat Reflexes, Knock-down, and Two-Weapon Defense; lower Intimidate to +14, add Tumble +14) Challenge Rating: 16? Advancement: By character class Equipment: Masterwork Chain Shirt Organization: Solitary, or Warband (1 deathbringer plus 1d4 devourers plus 4-8 mohrgs plus 5-20 Mummies) Greater Dispelling(Sp): Usable at will, Caster level 20. Greymantle (Su): Negative energy floods the area around the Deathbringer in a 60 ft. emanation. All living creatures must roll DC 23 Fortitude saving throws or be unable to heal damage naturally while in the area. (the saving throw is Charisma-based) Dying creatures will not stabilize without magical healing. This also suppresses Regeneration and Fast Healing effects in living creatures. Any healing spells cast in the area must succeed in a DC 28 caster level check or fail. (the DC is based on the Deathbringer’s SR) Undead creatures in the area (including the Deathbringer) gain Fast Healing 10. Extremely powerful creatures, such as deities, Abominations, and the Tarrasque are unaffected by this ability. Martial Blessing (Ex): Deathbringers have the BAB and bonus feats of a Fighter equal to their Hit Dice. For purposes of prerequisites, they are treated as having fighter levels equal to their Hit Dice. Unholy Toughness (Su): Deathbringers receive bonus hit points equal to their charisma modifier per Hit Die. Design notes: The idea was to take the basic concept and bring it more in line with existing rules & standards. I tried to identify the salient elements: Large Dual-wielding flails Greater dispelling burst Some sort of “negative Energy” heal-allies-hurt-foes ability Combat-oriented “Trampling” / overwhelming opponents The Negative Energy burst was both under-powered and uninspiring, so I replaced it with Graymantle. The non-SRD feats replace the original Trample ability. Instead of cranking up the hit dice, I used Martial Blessing to give it what amount to “virtual Fighter levels”, and used that Unholy Toughness to boost its hit points into survivability range. (though I’m not certain that the Charisma score needs to be as high as it is) The attack bonus seems low for a CR 16. Especially since its tactics should include Sunder & Disarm, (bonus from using Flail) and are resolved by opposed attack rolls. Even when it’s not trying to Sunder or Disarm, in order to benefit from Two-Weapon Defense it must take a penalty to its attacks from Fighting Defensively. (SRD friendly version) Masterwork or magical weapons might work to boost the bonuses I suppose. I could give it greater magic weapon usable at will, so that it’s always using +4 weapons, but I’m not sure I like that. I could boost the Strength score (which helps Bull Rush, Trip, and Sunder as well) but how high should the strength score be for this Large Undead? I’m already fudging things somewhat with a 19 Dexterity score to qualify for Greater TWF. The Fortitude saving throw is terribly low, and disintegrate is a popular tactic against undead. One solution is to drop the Unholy Toughness & Martial Blessing, double the number of hit dice, and drop the fighter-specific feats (Specialization, Greater Focus, and Greater Specialization) and drop the Charisma score, since the base DC for Graymantle is now 26. (Thanks to the sleight-of-hand from martial blessing and Unholy Toughness, the net changes are only +5 Fort, +5 Reflex, +8 Will, +24 hit points, and higher skill bonuses) On the other hand, it does have good SR, so maybe the weak Fortitude save is not a severe problem. It’s actually vulnerable to Turning right now. (maybe Greymantle should also provide Turn Resistance equal to the Charisma bonus to all undead in the area? Or maybe it should simply always be encountered with weaker undead? Or both?) At double the HD, it would be turning-proof, and I’m not sure I want that because high CR undead immune to turning from having buckets of HD marginalize clerics to a certain extent. (they already marginalize rogues by being immune to Sneak Attack) Or is it OK to have a high CR undead that could possible be turned and/or disintegrated? The non-SRD feats were intended to give this creature a more ‘tactical/battlefield’ feel. The flavor text described them as leading undead armies, so I thought the ability to break an enemy’s lines and overwhelm foes worked better than the original’s “trample” attack. Swapping out for SRD feats results in a tweaking of the skills, because in order to gain the benefit of Two Weapon Defense, the creature must be Fighting Defensively, and if you’ve got buckets of skill points, why not get the Synergy from Tumble for Fighting Defensively? Moreover, if the creature can’t effectively shove its way through enemy ranks, it should be able to tumble through them to maximize its reach and Combat Reflexes) So, critique the creation and see if it holds up.
DungeonMaster 03-14-07, 08:39 PM	It's trite and pretentous, and anyone who has ever DMed knows that books & RPGs are different mediums for entertainment and don't translate directly. (...) Hmm. Interesting reasoning you got going there. (...) Wow. You're so right. It's like one of us didn't even bother to read the monster. (...) Again, it's like one of us didn't read the monsters at all. And didn't read closely what I wrote. (...) Oh, and this line: (...) is too precious. Reality check: all of these comments are both snide and unproductive and preceed any snide comments of my own friend. There's an old rule about practicing what you preach. You are indeed to blame for drifting the discussion down that path. I am interested in discussing the monsters but you're convinced many monsters have problems that I know for a FACT don't. I've run almost all of these monsters, against good players and they are well balanced. Some are decidedly not - the famine spirit, the mountain giant and the deathbringer for instance have too high CR. As recently as november I ran a deathbringer that was easily dispatched by a group of level 10 PCs. Remember: I'm the one advocating a more moderate point of view, you are the extremist, not vice-versa. You're claiming there is much more wrong than there is right and I'm claiming it's not a whole lot different than other books. Now I've severely trounced your arguments that monsters such as the windghost, linnorms and phoenix are poorly designed and if you're not interested in countering my arguments then yes, the discussion is over. You could also rise to my challenge of making a single fighter or rogue PC capable of defeating a phoenix single handedly and thereby prove your statement with example rather than argumentation.
Singer_of_the_Song 03-14-07, 08:48 PM	Reality check: all of these comments are both snide and unproductive and preceed any snide comments of my own friend. There's an old rule about practicing what you preach. You are indeed to blame for drifting the discussion down that path. I am interested in discussing the monsters but you're convinced many monsters have problems that I know for a FACT don't. I've run almost all of these monsters, against good players and they are well balanced. Some are decidedly not - the famine spirit, the mountain giant and the deathbringer for instance have too high CR. As recently as november I ran a deathbringer that was easily dispatched by a group of level 10 PCs. Remember: I'm the one advocating a more moderate point of view, you are the extremist, not vice-versa. You're claiming there is much more wrong than there is right and I'm claiming it's not a whole lot different than other books. Now I've severely trounced your arguments that monsters such as the windghost, linnorms and phoenix are poorly designed and if you're not interested in countering my arguments then yes, the discussion is over. You could also rise to my challenge of making a single fighter or rogue PC capable of defeating a phoenix single handedly and thereby prove your statement with example rather than argumentation. Give it up man, your hijacking the thread. Honestly, call it a day bro.
DungeonMaster 03-14-07, 08:57 PM	Your deathbringer is still too weak for a CR of 16. +19 to attack is simply not enough, at all, when it's your only attack mode against 16th level PCs. +5 full plate +5 tower shield already puts them at AC 32, that's without natural , deflection and other bonuses. These will easily push into the 40's. It will never hit the front line in a meaningful way. That is the attack bonus of a fire giant, a CR 10 monster, and the giant does roughly the same damage. Slapping ~50% spell resistance on it will not even out it's abysmal fortitude save and as an undead it's disintegrate to dust in a hurry. Take the example of the 3rd edition MM high level undead: the nightshades. They have outright spell immunities to level 6 spells or below, that's the best way to design a high level undead. My opinion is undead without templates at high levels need a massive arsenal of spell like and supernatural abilities such as the nightshades.
DungeonMaster 03-14-07, 09:07 PM	Give it up man, your hijacking the thread. Honestly, call it a day bro. I'm not hijacking the thread - I'm specifically agreeing with your initial post that some of the monsters need a CR shift and that's all. That you've later decided by other people's hijack that for some reason the whole book needs to be torn to peices is really a shame. You don't need to do that. You need to shift the CR of a few monsters. That's all. Or you can go the long, tedious and largely erroneous route of rewritting things if you really want to. Largely erroneous because you'll end up with monsters like Dok's recent example of a re-worked deathbringer that is just as damn useless as the original. It still can't hit the broadside of a barn and now it can't even dispel the flying wizard to the ground either - probably the only thing it was good at before.
Aryxbez 03-14-07, 09:16 PM	Well I don't like to get into arguments, but the challenge for the phoenix slaying is easy. Just play some ubercharger that can fly and just flying charge and kill the phoenix in one hit. Also I have wanted this answered, although it doesn't matter anymore. What of the Avolokia? is that creature balanced? Also I suggest that all the changes be put into one big list to make it easier to find the revised creatures.
Singer_of_the_Song 03-14-07, 09:29 PM	Also I have wanted this answered, although it doesn't matter anymore. What of the Avolokia? is that creature balanced? The avolakia is an aberration that lives underground (it looks kind of like a worm crossed with a lamprey) and enjoys creating undead.
Aryxbez 03-14-07, 09:32 PM	Well I know what it is, but is the creature balanced? Is it worth it's CR of 10?
dok 03-14-07, 09:59 PM	Well, it's nice to know that my concerns about attack bonus (in the box labeld "design notes") are shared by others. It's a pity there wasn't some constructive suggestions on how best to improve the attack bonus, addressing the issues I raised on those "design notes", but I'm sure more will follow. Looking over the orignal Deathbringer, I see that the greater dispeling was always at will, and had no other limitations. I got it confused with the Negative Energy Burst ability, and unnecessarily limited it. I'll be editing the creature to reflect that shortly. Also I suggest that all the changes be put into one big list to make it easier to find the revised creatures. That's one of two things I suggested for this thread. I think once everyone has found all the updated items, a new "consolidated" thread will be helpful to everyone.
runestar 03-14-07, 10:35 PM	Regarding the revised deathbringer, why the heck does it have 4 attacks despite only having a paltry 16 undead HD? Do you mean giving it 32 undead HD instead(since they give poor bab)?:confused: I might consider giving it quicken SLA: greater dispelling as well.
dok 03-14-07, 10:45 PM	It has 4 attacks because of this: Martial Blessing (Ex): Deathbringers have the BAB and bonus feats of a Fighter equal to their Hit Dice. For purposes of prerequisites, they are treated as having fighter levels equal to their Hit Dice. Now, maybe that should be (Su) instead of (Ex), I dunno...
DungeonMaster 03-15-07, 01:36 AM	Well I don't like to get into arguments, but the challenge for the phoenix slaying is easy. Just play some ubercharger that can fly and just flying charge and kill the phoenix in one hit. No arguments. Your ubercharger attacks what he thought was a phoenix, at least it looked a lot like one. It was in fact a glow-worm. You and your mount without the protection of a mage or cleric's protection spell are instantly incinerated by empowered holly berry bombs. http://www.nadaka.us/DiceBoxDB.asp?Page=Find&By=Name&Value=phoenix You might survive, but I doubt the mount does unless you're a paladin (that problably made you lose your paladin status, charging a phoenix so we'll ignore that idea). You are reincarnated as a monkey to better serve the forces of good. The glowworm is reincarnated as a human and takes your gear. Next? Avolokai are tough but balanced.
Azar_of_Faerun 03-15-07, 03:03 AM	I'd like to see the revised Darktentacles, Mountain Giant, Windghost, Banshee, Chain Golem, Adamantine Clockwork Horror, Seismosaurus and Forest Sloth if you have them, or when you get around to them
WizO_Sith 03-15-07, 09:37 AM	Just a couple of quick reminders:[/list] Keep things civil, it's just a game. It doesn't matter who did what first, being flamed does not give somebody the right to flame back.[/list] I hate closing threads, please don't make me close this one.
Singer_of_the_Song 03-15-07, 11:48 PM	I can't find any more updated monsters.
Aryxbez 03-15-07, 11:54 PM	No arguments. Your ubercharger attacks what he thought was a phoenix, at least it looked a lot like one. It was in fact a glow-worm. You and your mount without the protection of a mage or cleric's protection spell are instantly incinerated by empowered holly berry bombs. http://www.nadaka.us/DiceBoxDB.asp?P...alue=ph oenix You might survive, but I doubt the mount does unless you're a paladin (that problably made you lose your paladin status, charging a phoenix so we'll ignore that idea). You are reincarnated as a monkey to better serve the forces of good. The glowworm is reincarnated as a human and takes your gear. Next? Sorry but I can't really understand what you are saying. But I was talking about a flying ubercharger not someone mounted, could have flight whether from natural wings, fly spell or the boots of flying. Although a flying mount could work Also just so you know, I hate Ubercharging
DungeonMaster 03-16-07, 11:41 AM	Hmm... being a good charger typically requires a mount and the use of spirited charge, which was my assumption. Maybe I should specify that I'm likewise presuposing core 3rd edition rules for the PCs. I fully agree non-core rules can make horribly unbalanced characters capable of slaying even demon lords in no time flat. The glow-worms are of course under the effect of an extended veil spell, making the location of the true phoenix difficult to ascertain. It's all more or less just off the cuff commentary to say that taking on a phoenix is not a cakewalk - simply charging isn't the solution to its many and varied abilities.
Aryxbez 03-16-07, 05:18 PM	Oh you meant the worms were in the encounter? okay then Since it's core of course the phoenix is going to be kinda strong but otherwise has stats that make little sense has like 18 strength and he is bigger than large so he should have a pretty decent strength. Otherwise I have nothing more to add on the fact the phoenix can be beaten.
Singer_of_the_Song 03-18-07, 02:29 AM	This site (http://www.geocities.com/paranoidus_maximus/creatures.htm) has new versions of the marraenoloth, the arcanaloth, and the yagnoloth. They look pretty good to me. They also have new versions of a bunch of the MMII demons, although you can also go with the CR update in FC I.
lastknightleft 03-18-07, 06:54 PM	I've just got to add this :twocents: Don't worry about size vs. ability scores, the mention of pheonix and some others are what set this off. I agree that MMII needs revision, but size and Str don't always have a lot of correlation. There are in real life monkeys who would be size category small that are stronger than humans size category medium across the board, I'm not talking of strong monkey vs. weak human. Also there are animals larger than I am that knowing how to deal with them, I could physically tear them a new one. Every once in a while it's okay to have a gigantic creature with poor strength/con/dex, it represents a creature who has never needed physical strength to stay alive. Other than that I applaud your efforts
runestar 03-19-07, 12:40 AM	The ocean strider might need its stats revised as well. A huge creature with only 18str...? And its AC is crap...:(
Singer_of_the_Song 03-19-07, 12:49 AM	The ocean strider might need its stats revised as well. A huge creature with only 18str...? And its AC is crap...:( Yea...it's such a cool concept though, we should save it.
Talisman 03-20-07, 01:23 PM	All right, here are my revised versions of the darktentacles, fiendwurm, and fihyr, three of the MM2 monsters I believe most desperately needed revising. Dark Watcher Large Aberration (Aquatic) Hit Dice 10d8+40 (85 hp) Initiative +3 Speed 10', swim 40' AC 22 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +10 natural), touch 12, flat-tentacled 19 Base Attack/Grapple +7/+20 Attack Tentacle +12 melee or weapon +11 melee Full Attack 12 tentacles +12 melee or 1 weapon +9/+4 melee and 11 weapons +9 melee Damage Tentacle 1d6+5, weapon by weapon +5 Space/Reach 10'/15' Special Attacks Constrict 2d6+7, improved grab, spell-like abilities Special Qualities All-around vision, tremorsense 60', weapon master Saves Fort +9, Ref +8, Will +8 Abilities Str 21, Dex 17, Con 19, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 14 Skills Concentration +14, Hide +10*, Listen +11, Move Silently +15, Search +6*, Spot +15, Swim +13 Feats Combat Reflexes, Great Fortitude, Improved Disarm (B), Lightning Reflexes, Multiweapon Fighting (B), Weapon Focus (slam) Environment Any marsh Organization Solitary Challenge Rating 8 Treasure Standard Alignment Usually chaotic evil Advancement 11-18 HD (Large), 19-26 HD (Huge), 27-30 HD (Gargantuan) Level Adjustment -- Combat: An opponent can make sunder attempts against the dark watcher's tentacles as though they were weapons. A dark watcher's tentacles have 12 hit points. If a dark watcher is grappling an opponent with one tentacle, it uses another to make the attack of opportunity. Severing a dark watcher's tentacle deals 6 points of damage the dark watcher. A dark watcher will usually withdraw from combat if it loses 5 or more of its tentacles. Severed tentacles grow back in 24 hours. All-Around Vision (Ex): Its many eyes grant a dark watcher a +4 racial bonus on Search and spot checks and prevent it from ever being flanked. Improved Grab (Ex): A dark watcher may attempt to grapple with any creature up to one size smaller than itself that it hits with a tentacle attack. It has a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks. If it gets a hold, it will constrict. Spell-like Abilities: At will--hypnotism, 3/day--charm monster, hold monster; 1/day--eyebite. Caster level 9th; save DC 12 + spell level. The save DCs are Charisma-based. Weapon Master (Ex): A dark watcher gains Improved Disarm and Multiweapon Fighting as bonus feats. It is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and its penalties for wielding weapons sized for smaller creatures are reduced by 2 points. Finally, a dark watcher has no "off hand;" it applies its full Strength bonus to damage with all weapon attacks. Skills: *A dark watcher has a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks made in marshy areas. It has a +4 racial bonus on Search and Spot checks. Design Notes The MM2 darktentacles was a strangely-constructed beast, a combination of squidlike tentacle attacks, spell-like abilities, and steal-your-weapon-and-beat-you-with-it abilities. It seemed weak for its CR and its abilities were somewhat counter-intuitive. The first thing I did was change the name, since referring to a "darktentacles's tentacles" grew tiresome, and I had never liked the name to begin with. I beefed up the dark watcher's HD, Strength, and Constitution, making its tentacles more dangerous on their own. Since I like the idea of a klepto-squid, I changed enhanced multiweapon fighting into weapon mastery, simultaneously freeing up two feat slots. The tentacle regeneration was dropped, and severing the tentacles was changed to a sundering attack, along the lines of the kraken and giant squid. I revamped the dark watcher's SLAs, making them more like what an eye-monster seems likely to have. Wall of force was right out, but charming and paralyzing abilities seemed appropriate. Finally, I gave it all-around vision...it's a huge glob of tentacles and eyes, after all. CR was estimated by comparing it to the CR 7 chuul. While its individual attacks are weaker, and the chuul has 1 more HD, the dark watcher's multiple attacks and SLAs justified the CR bump. Fiendwurm Gargantuan Magical Beast (Evil) Hit Dice 24d10+216 (348 hp) Initiative +5 Speed 60', burrow 60' AC 31 (-4 size, +1 Dex, +24 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 30 Base Attack/Grapple +24/+49 Attack/Full Attack Bite +34 melee Damage Bite 2d8+19/19-20 plus 3d6 acid Space/Reach 20'/15' Special Attacks Death rift, demonic belch, improved grab, swallow whole Special Qualities Acidic hide, fiendish blood, DR 15/--, immunity to acid, immunity to poison, portal gut, resistance to cold 10, electricity 30 and fire 10, SR 30, tremorsense 120' Saves Fort +23, Ref +13, Will +12 Abilities Str 36, Dex 13, Con 29, Int 3, Wis 14, Cha 8 Skills Listen +15, Spot +16 Feats Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Overrun, Iron Will, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bite) Environment Any desert, plains, or underground Organization Solitary Challenge Rating 19 Treasure None Alignment Always chaotic evil Advancement 25-30 HD (Gargantuan), 31-72 HD (Colossal) Level Adjustment -- Acidic Hide (Ex): The body of a fiendwurm seethes with acid. Any creature touching a fiendwurm (including unarmed strikes, natural attacks, and touch attacks) takes 3d6 points of acid damage. In addition, the fienwurm's bite attack deals 3d6 points of acid damage in addition to the usual bite damage. Death Rift (Su): When a fiendwurm is reduced to 0 hit points, the portal inside its gut catastrophically implodes. This destroys the fiendwurm's body as it is sucked through the portal; in addition, all creatures within 30' of the fiendwurm must make a DC 31 Reflex save or be sucked through the portal and into the Abyss. Since the portal is destroyed as part of this occurance, trapped creatures must find another way home. The save DC is Constitution-based. Demonic Belch (Su): As a standard action, a fiendwurm may belch forth demons, coughing them up from the portal in its belly. Roll 1d100 to determine the type of demon that emerges. d100 Demon 01-20 Vrock 21-50 Bebelith 51-80 Hezrou 81-00 Glabrezu Demons summoned by this ability remain for 10 minutes, and cannot themselves summon other demons. A fiendwurm will instinctively avoid attacking the demons it summons unless there are no other enemies nearby or the fiendwurm is especially hungry. Once a fiendwurm has belched forth demons in this manner, it cannot use its demonic belch ability for 1d4 rounds. Fiendish Blood (Ex): For purposes of special effects dependant on type, a fiendwurm is considered to be simultaneously a magical beast and an outsider (chaotic, evil, tanar'ri). Improved Grab (Ex): If a fiendwurm hits an opponent of Huge size or smaller with its bite, it can attempt to start a grapple. If it establishes a hold, the fiendwurm can attempt to swallow the victim in the following round. Portal Gut (Su): Deep within the fiendwurm's belly is a small, permanent portal to the Abyss. A creature swallowed by the fiendwurm must make a DC 31 Reflex save each round or be sucked through the portal into the Abyss. The save DC is Constitution-based. The Abyssal side of the portal is stationary, but the other side moves with the fiendwurm. If this portal is somehow permanently closed, the fiendwurm immediately dies but its death rift ability is not triggered. Swallow Whole (Ex): A fiendwurm can swallow a grappled foe of a smaller size than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once swallowed, the victim takes 2d8+13 points of crushing damage plus 3d6 points of acid damage each round, and is exposed to the Abyssal portal in the fiendwurm's gut (see portal gut, above). A swallowed creature can cut its way out using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the fiendwurm's gizzard (AC 28). A Gargantuan fiendwurm's gizzard can cold one Huge, 2 Large, 8 Medium, 32 Small, 128 Tiny, or 512 Diminutive or smaller opponents. Design Notes The MM2 fiendwurm was noteworthy for its lousy defenses--no SR, no energy resistances. Its respectable DR was offset by its lack of spell resistance and Will save of +10. I gave the wurm energy resistances based on the general tanar'ri demon list, spell resistance based on its estimated CR, and immunity to poison. Acidic hide was simplified (only one damage rating), and applied to its bite as well (which makes sense). Fiendish blood was added due to the wurm's stated origin--"fiendish magic" ought to leave some sort of trace. The Evil subtype was added for the same reason. The wurm's demonic belch ability, while interesting, was woefully underpowered. Instead of an arbitrary 3/day, I let it use this power at will, but with a 1d4-round delay. The demons summoned, while still random, now have the potential to actually inconvenience a high-level party. I also added a duration. Death rift was expanded so it would threaten someone other than the primary melee fighter. Portal was renamed portal gut. Otherwise, these abilities were left alone. For CR, I compared it to the (equally wormlike) CR 18 nightcrawler. The special abilities are similar, and while the fiendwurm lacks the nightcrawler's poison, energy drain and fiendish intellect, its greater damage-dealing output, save-or-die portal gut, and dangerous death rift seemed to justfy the CR bump. Lesser Fihyr Small Aberration Hit Dice 4d8 (18 hp) Initiative +3 Speed 20', fly 30' (good) AC 16 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 13 Base Attack/Grapple +3/-1 Attack/Full Attack Bite +7 melee Damage Bite 1d4 plus 1 Wis Space/Reach 5'/5' Special Attacks Drain emotions, frightful presence, spell-like abilities Special Qualities All-around vision, feed on fear, spawn, SR 13, vulnerability to sunlight Saves Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +5 Abilities Str 10, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 5, Wis 12, Cha 13 Skills Hide +12, Move Silently +9, Search +1, Spot +5 Feats Stealthy, Weapon Finesse Environment Any urban Organization Solitary, pair or brood (3-12) Challenge Rating 3 Treasure None Alignment Always chaotic evil Advancement 5-8 HD (Small), 9-12 HD (Medium) Level Adjustment -- All-Around Vision (Ex): A fihyr's many eyes grant it a +4 racial bonus on Search and Spot checks and prevent it from ever being flanked. Drain Emotions (Su): Whenever an emotion-influencing spell other than a fear effect is cast within 30' of a fihyr, the caster must overcome the fihyr's spell resistance, even if the spell normally ignores spell resistance or the fihyr itself is not the target. If the spellcaster wins, the effect goes off normally. However, if the caster fails, the spell energy is absorbed by the fihyr. The spell has no effect and the fihyr is healed of 5 hit points of damage per spell level, gainng any extra healing as temporary hit points for 1 hour. Feed on Fear (Su): Fihyrs are immune to all fear effects. In addition, whenever a creature fails its Will save against the fihyr's frightful presence, the fihyr is healed of 5 hit points of damage, gainng any extra healing as temporary hit points for 1 hour. Frightful Presence (Su): Whenever a fihyr charges or attacks, all witnesses within 30' must make a DC 13 Will save. On a failed save, victims of 5 HD or less are panicked, and those of 6 HD or more are shaken, for 5d6 rounds. The save DC is Charisma-based. Spawn (Ex): If a fihyr's temporary hit points gained from its drain emotion and feed on fear abilities ever equal its maximum normal hit point total, the fihyr immediately and spontaneously splits into two identical creatures as a full-round action. The new fihyrs are normal specimens with no remaining temporary hit points. Spell-like Abilities: At will--cause fear; 1/day--scare. Caster level 4th; save DC 11 + spell level. The save DCs are Charisma-based. Vulnerability to Sunlight (Ex): Direct sunlight deals 3d6 points of damage per round to a fihyr, destroying the creature in short order unless it can find shelter. Fihyrs have no instinctive fear of sunlight, and only flee from it once they have actually taken damage. Even then, their fear lasts for no more than 24 hours--a fihyr that survives the day will blunder out into the sunlight again the next morning. Great Fihyr Medium Aberration Hit Dice 16d8+64 (136 hp) Initiative +2 Speed 30', climb 30', fly 50' (good) AC 24 (+2 Dex, +12 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 22 Base Attack/Grapple +12/+16 Attack Bite +16 melee Full Attack 4 bites +16 melee and 6 tentacles +11 melee Damage Bite 1d8+4 plus 1d4 Wis, tentacle 1d6+2 Space/Reach 5'/5' Special Attacks Drain emotions, frightful presence, spell-like abilities Special Qualities All-around vision, blindsense 30', feed on fear, spawn, SR 22, vulnerability to sunlight Saves Fort +9, Ref +9, Will +13 Abilities Str 19, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 23 Skills Hide +23, Listen +24, Move Silently +23, Search +6, Spot +24 Feats Alertness, Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Quicken Spell-like Ability (greater invisbility), Stealthy Environment Any urban Organization Solitary or brood (1 plus 3-12 fihyrs) Challenge Rating 10 Treasure Standard Alignment Always chaotic evil Advancement 17-20 HD (Medium), 21-36 HD (Large), 37-48 HD (Huge) Level Adjustment -- All-Around Vision (Ex): A great fihyr's many eyes grant it a +4 racial bonus on Search and Spot checks and prevent it from ever being flanked. Despair (Su): The mere sight of a great fihyr forces the viewers to make a DC 24 Will save or be paralyzed with fear for 1d4 rounds. Whether the save succeeds or not, the victims cannot be affected by the same great fihyr's despair ability for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based. Drain Emotions (Su): Whenever an emotion-influencing spell other than a fear effect is cast within 30' of a great fihyr, the caster must overcome the fihyr's spell resistance, even if the spell normally ignores spell resistance or the great fihyr itself is not the target. If the spellcaster wins, the effect goes off normally. However, if the caster fails, the spell energy is absorbed by the fihyr. The spell has no effect and the fihyr is healed of 5 hit points of damage per spell level, gainng any extra healing as temporary hit points for 1 hour. Feed on Fear (Su): Great fihyrs are immune to all fear effects. In addition, whenever a creature fails its Will save against the great fihyr's frightful presence, the great fihyr is healed of 5 hit points of damage, gainng any extra healing as temporary hit points for 1 hour. Frightful Presence (Su): Whenever a great fihyr charges or attacks, all witnesses within 30' must make a DC 24 Will save. On a failed save, victims of 5 HD or less are panicked, and those of 6 HD or more are shaken, for 5d6 rounds. The save DC is Charisma-based. Spawn (Ex): If a great fihyr's temporary hit points gained from its drain emotion and feed on fear abilities ever equal its maximum normal hit point total, the fihyr immediately and spontaneously splits into two identical creatures as a full-round action. The new great fihyrs are normal specimens with no remaining temporary hit points. Great fihyrs are solitary entities, and the two will go their separate ways as soon as any immediate threats are dealt with. If the territory is not large enough to support two great fihyrs, they will eventually attack each other, fighting until only one survives. Spell-like Abilities: At will--crushing despair, fear, greater invisibility, suggestion; 3/day--eyebite, hold person, nightmare, phantasmal killer, ray of exhaustion. Caster level 16th; save DC 16 + spell level. The save DCs are Charisma-based. Vulnerability to Sunlight (Ex): Direct sunlight deals 3d6 points of damage per round to a great fihyr. Unlike their lesser kin, great fihyrs fear and despise sunlight, and will hide themselves in the deepest, darkest havens they can find during the daylight hours. Design Notes The MM2 fihyr was a cool idea--an aberration spawned from fear, that feeds on fear. Unfortunately, it has one of the worst executions I've every seen. The lesser fihyr wasn't too bad, but the great fihyr was truly atrocious. For the lesser fihyr, I retained the basic monster, then bumped the stats up to a reasonable level--a fear-monster needs a Charisma higher than 7! All-around vision seemed like a natural. Bite damage was left at 1d4, but I added Wisdom damage--it seems logical that a fear monster would drain strength of will. For a fear-monster, the original fihyr was sadly lacking in special abilities. The SLAs were obvious, and the drain emotions and feed on fear abilities made sense. If the monster is spawned from fear, there ought to be some mechanic for spawning new ones--and thus, the spawn ability was born. Finally, vulnerability to sunlight was altered to prevent the wait-12-hours-and-the-fihyrs-all-die situation. For the greater fihyr, I again took the basic monster stats and increased them to a more reasonable level. Most of the monster's abilities are scaled-up versions of the lesser fihyr's. I also gave it a climb speed because I like the image of it hulking up the side of a building if its flight is somehow disabled. The original great fihyr had oddly high bite damage--2d6--but no Strength bonus. Based on the picture, this version has multiple, lesser bite attacks and a few tentacles to keep things interesting. The Wisdom damage was scaled up as well, but only for the bites. The mummy's despair ability seemed like a perfect fit, and despite its now-multiple attacks, this was obviously a special-abilities monster, not a melee monster. Consequently, I greatly expanded upon its SLAs, including several quasi-fear abilities to keep the party paladin from laughing as he easily slaughtered the thing. CR for the lesser fihyr was estimated by comparing it to the CR 4 carrion crawler. The fihyr has far fewer attacks and no paralysis, but similar hp and AC, and many more special abilities. CR for the great fihyr was estimated by comparing it to the CR 9 spirit naga. The fihyr has slightly better HD and attacks, but no poison. Its SLAs are roughly equal to the naga's spells, and its miscellaneous powers made it slightly more powerful than the naga.
lastknightleft 03-20-07, 03:11 PM	for the fiendwurm you didn't specify how many demons are summoned per belch merely what type
Singer_of_the_Song 03-20-07, 03:35 PM	for the fiendwurm you didn't specify how many demons are summoned per belch merely what type I think it's just one.
Singer_of_the_Song 03-23-07, 01:32 PM	I like the new Fihyrs a lot.
Lord_Of_The_Savages 03-23-07, 02:16 PM	Talisman, you do fine work. <Hearty warrior handshake>
Talisman 03-24-07, 11:49 AM	Thanks much! <Hearty half-dragon wizard handshake> Yes ,Singer of the Song got it right: just one demon. I forgot to note that...although, in my defense, the original fiendwurm entry (to which I was referring) also missed that.
ZeronHitaro 03-24-07, 06:09 PM	Quick Request related to the purpose of this thread although slightly different. Long Story short: In the game I run I'm having an army of clockwork horror's invade a major city. Request: Might someone more knowledgeable of the MM II be willing to write up a Collosal sized Electrum Horror (I think those are the "grunts" of the 4, don't have my book handy) swarm creature within the next 24 hours or so? No worries if no one can, I just now even thought of this.
Singer_of_the_Song 03-24-07, 07:44 PM	Thanks much! <Hearty half-dragon wizard handshake> Yes ,Singer of the Song got it right: just one demon. I forgot to note that...although, in my defense, the original fiendwurm entry (to which I was referring) also missed that. Well, you said the demon, it just had to be read with a little attention. :)
RavinRay 03-25-07, 10:29 AM	If you like the concept behind the monsters, you'd do better to identify the creatures you like, and re-make them to work better. To illustrate what I mean, let me offer three examples: Hellfire Wyrm To make this thread a valuable resource, I suggest the following actions: I know someone has done top-notch conversion on the Gem Dragons, but I don't have a link. Likewise, I know someone at Dicefreaks was working the Hellfire Wyrm as a Planar Dragon. One reason why I posted my revised versions was so that other folks could use them, and to put them where people would actually look for them. With the linorms and the hellfire wyrm, I would like the end result to be a dragon with age categories, even if modified from the true dragon categories. While the hellfire wyrm is listed as a lesser dragon in the dragon index of Draconomicon, it is also listed as the planar dragon of Baator in the sidebar for Mike McArtor's planar dragons article in Dragon #344. As I speculated in other threads, I suspect it was originally meant to be a planar true dragon, because at Todd Lockwood's website there's a similarly drawn dragon named the hellfire dragon (with a tiefling rider) that was supposed to grace the cover of a magazine (Dragon?) and I guessed that it was nerfed into the hellfire wyrm we know. But I agree with Kain Darkwind on the true dragon suggestion. There is precedence for this: the phaerimm had only a single age category in Monsters of Faerûn, but in the Player's Guide to Faerûn 3.5 update for MoF PDF, it had more (six IIRC) age categories. I've seen the Dicefreaks version of the hellfire wyrm (and the author named it, coincidentally, the hellfire dragon (http://www.dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=253)), and it's an epic dragon (in a different sort of way). I don't know if you'll call my gem dragon conversion (at my sig) top-notch, but I've done what I could to bring them inline with the XPH. I've put them into two PDFs: one as an update of their original web enhancement 3.0 incarnation (with complete stats and descriptions from the MM II), the other as an appendix to the massive Legend of Sardior update I made. The latter is merely a listing of the changes and where these would fit in the age categories tables. I can separate those into a PDF of its own and make it available for download.
Singer_of_the_Song 03-27-07, 07:30 PM	:bump:
RavinRay 03-30-07, 10:03 PM	My gem dragon psionics PDF (http://www.geocities.com/originalravinray/dnd/psionics/Gem_Dragon_psionics.pdf) is now available for download.
sicsemperjohn 04-08-07, 07:13 AM	:bump:
Singer_of_the_Song 04-18-07, 01:45 AM	So what monsters are people still interested in?
Khalarak Ironclaw 04-18-07, 02:47 AM	You're pretty crazy dok if you think (1d8+20)*1.5*8 reflex save half isn't a good ability. That's 294 damage. It's basically save-or-die by fire. You can disagree all you want but only 3 classes out of 11 have good reflex saves, rogue, bard and monk (wildrogue in 3.5). I say that can hurt, a LOT. I hate to dredge up old wrongs, but my OCD won't allow me to let this go unanswered....I'm assuming you're saying its an Empowered Maximized Holly Berry Bomb, correct? So would that not be the die rolled maximized (8) plus 20, times 1.5? or 42 damage? Help me out if my math's wrong, but that hardly seems to be save-or-die by fire. Especially if they have to be placed ahead of time. That's more like what my 9th-level players are hitting for with their spells (at a much lower save DC mind you, but there you are).
Aryxbez 05-06-07, 12:40 AM	I would like to see a orcwort being made to be worth it's CR. Also I would appreciate it if I was not ignored, as then I will just post a thread about this creature, or just PM other people If i really have to for the info. Although in the end, I will probably just do it myself.
Kain Darkwind 06-04-07, 01:04 PM	Revised Linorms Grey Linorm Grey Linorm, Adult Huge Dragon Hit Dice: 22d12 + 132 (275 hp) Initiative: +0 Speed: 30 ft., fly 60 ft. (good), swim 30 ft. Armor Class: 39 (+31 natural, -2 size), touch 8, flat-footed 39 Base Attack/Grapple: +22/+40 Attack: Bite +30 melee (2d8 + 10) Full Attack: Bite +30 melee (2d8 + 10) and 2 claws +28 melee (2d6 + 5) and tail +28 melee (2d8 + 15 plus poison) Space/Reach: 15 ft. /10 ft. (15 ft. with bite) Special Attacks: Breath weapon, crush 2d8 + 15, poison, spell-like abilities, spells Special Qualities: Blindsight 120 ft., damage reduction 15/high magic, darkvision 120 ft., immune to sleep and paralysis, keen senses, spell resistance 29 Saves: Fort +18, Ref +13, Will +19 Abilities: Str 30, Dex 11, Con 21, Int 14, Wis 19, Cha 17 Skills: Bluff +28, Concentration +20, Diplomacy +11, Intimidate +32, Knowledge (arcana) +20, Knowledge (history) +20, Knowledge (religion) +20, Listen +29, Sense Motive +29, Spellcraft +10, Spot +29, Swim +18 Feats: Cleave, Fly-by Attack, Improved Toughness, Iron Will, Multiattack, Power Attack, Snatch Climate/Terrain: Any hills or mountains Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 17 Treasure: Double Standard Alignment: Chaotic Evil Breath Weapon (Su): A grey linorm breathes acid dealing 14d8 damage (DC 26) in a 50 foot cone or 100 foot line. On a failed Reflex save, the acid damages weapons and armor as well. Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 26, 1d6 Con/2d6 Con Spell-like Abilities: Always active – fly; 3/day – contagion, meld into stone, shapechange, wind walk Caster level 22nd. Spells: Grey linorms cast spells as 17th level sorcerers, but only can choose spells known from the cleric list. They use Wisdom for spellcasting. They automatically gain the spells from the Evil and Destruction domains. Spells per day: Caster level 17th, DC 14 + spell level. Dread Linorm Dread Linorm, Adult Colossal Dragon Hit Dice: 40d12 + 480 (740 hp) Initiative: +7 Speed: 50 ft., fly 60 ft. (good), swim 50 ft. Armor Class: 49 (-1 Dex, +48 natural, -8 size), touch 1, flat-footed 49 Base Attack/Grapple: +40/+73 Attack: Bite +49 melee (4d8 + 17) Full Attack: 2 bites +49 melee (4d8 + 17) and 2 claws +49 melee (4d6 + 8) and tail +49 melee (4d8 + 25) Space/Reach: 60 ft. /40 ft. (60 ft. with bite) Special Attacks: Breath weapon, crush 4d8 + 25, energy drain, spell-like abilities, spells, tail sweep 2d8 + 25 Special Qualities: Blindsight 120 ft., damage reduction 20/epic, darkvision 120 ft., immune to enchantment and paralysis, keen senses, spell resistance 36 Saves: Fort +32, Ref +21, Will +35 Abilities: Str 45, Dex 8, Con 31, Int 18, Wis 24, Cha 22 Skills: Bluff +49, Climb +37, Concentration +51, Diplomacy +14, Intimidate +53, Knowledge (arcana) +30, Knowledge (history) +30, Knowledge (religion) +30, Listen +50, Search +25, Sense Motive +40, Spellcraft +51, Spot +50, Swim +47 Feats: Cleave, Empower Spell, Fly-by Attack, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Multiattack, Iron Will, Maximize Spell, Multiattack, Power Attack, Snatch Epic Feats: Epic Toughness, Epic Will, Superior Initiative Climate/Terrain: Any land Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 25 Treasure: Double Standard Alignment: Chaotic Evil Breath Weapon (Su): A dread linorm’s two heads can breathe simultaneously. A single head can breathe a 70 foot cone or 140 foot line dealing 20d6 fire or cold. Energy Drain (Ex): A dread linorm bestows one negative level with its bite attack. For each negative level bestowed, the dread linorm gains 5 hit points. Hit points gained in excess of its total are stored as temporary hit points. The Fortitude DC to remove a negative level is 40. Spell-like Abilities: Always active – fly; at will – telekinesis (DC 22); 3/day – antipathy (DC 24), move earth, power word stun, sympathy (DC 24) Caster level 30th. Spells: Dread linorms cast spells as 20th level sorcerers Spells per day: 6/8/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/6 DC 16 + spell level. Corpse Tearer Corpse Tearer, Adult Gargantuan Dragon Hit Dice: 39d12 + 624 (877 hp) Initiative: +3 Speed: 60 ft., burrow 60 ft., fly 60 ft. (good), swim 60 ft. Armor Class: 52 (-1 Dex, +47 natural, -4 size), touch 5, flat-footed 352 Base Attack/Grapple: +39/+65 Attack: Bite +49 melee (4d8 + 14) Full Attack: Bite +49 melee (4d6 + 14) and 2 claws +49 melee (2d8 + 7) and tail +49 melee (4d6 + 21) Space/Reach: 30 ft. /20 ft. (30 ft. with bite) Special Attacks: Breath weapon, crush 4d6 + 21, energy drain, spell-like abilities, spells, tail sweep 2d6 + 21 Special Qualities: Blindsight 120 ft., damage reduction 20/epic and good, darkvision 120 ft., immune to sleep and paralysis, keen senses, spell resistance 39 Saves: Fort +33, Ref +20, Will +28 Abilities: Str 39, Dex 8, Con 35, Int 21, Wis 25, Cha 22 Skills: Bluff +48, Concentration +54, Diplomacy +14, Intimidate +52, Knowledge (arcana) +47, Knowledge (history) +47, Knowledge (religion) +47, Listen +48, Search +47, Sense Motive +48, Spellcraft +51, Spot +48, Swim +22 Feats: Cleave, Empower Spell, Fly-by Attack, Great Cleave, Improved Fly-by Attack, Improved Initiative, Improved Multiattack, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Snatch Epic Feats: Epic Toughness (x2), Multispell Climate/Terrain: Any land Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 28 Treasure: Double Standard Alignment: Neutral Evil Breath Weapon (Su): A corpse tearer can breathe a 60 foot cone or 120 foot line of disease or paralysis. A Fortitude save (DC 41) negates either effect. Paralysis lasts for 1d6 + 12 rounds. Disease infects creatures with linorm fever, which has an incubation period of 12 hours and deals 1d6 Str/1d3 Con. Energy Drain (Ex): A corpse tearer bestows three negative levels with its bite attack. For each negative level bestowed, the corpse tearer gains 5 hit points. Hit points gained in excess of its total are stored as temporary hit points. The Fortitude DC to remove a negative level is 41. Spell-like Abilities: Always active – fly; at will – animate dead; 3/day – control undead, create undead, create greater undead, deeper darkness, dimension door, enervation (DC 20), etherealness, polymorph, protection from good, speak with dead, spectral hand, vampiric touch, water breathing Caster level 29th Spells: Corpse tearers cast spells as 20th level sorcerers, but only can choose spells known from the cleric list. They use Wisdom for spellcasting. They automatically gain the spells from the Evil and Destruction domains. Spells per day: 6/8/8/8/7/7/7/7/6/6 DC 17 + spell level.
Kain Darkwind 06-05-07, 02:59 PM	Incidently, I forgot that I used my houseruled version of Epic Toughness on these guys. For those who are wondering it works exactly like Improved Toughness, but gives 2 additional hp per HD rather than 1. If you don't like that, I would suggest replacing it with Improved Toughness for the Dread Linorm and with Improved Toughness and Superior Initiative with the Corpse Tearer.
runestar 06-05-07, 10:22 PM	Nice work on the linnorms. My own solution was simply to revise their crs downwards. I think I gave the grey linnorn cr16, the dread linnorn cr 18 and the corpse tearer a cr20.:P
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 06-06-07, 05:59 PM	1. I'll divide the monsters I want salvaged into two categories: those I know to be "classics" from previous editions and I think must not be lost, and other ones I thought were nifty. Not all may need work, I haven't looked at them closely enough. Classics: banshee, catoblepas, celestials (all), crimson death, death knight, fihyr, hook horror, ixitxachitl, morkoth, myconid, phoenix, yugoloths (all). Others: Automatons, avolakia, bladeling, braxat, bronze serpent, clockwork horrors, darktentacles, deathbringer, ethereal slayer, linnorm, moonbeast & mooncalf, nightmare beast, rampager, rukarazyll, vaporighu. For the record, the bladeling, the braxat, the clockwork horrors, the darktentacles, the linnorms, the rampager, and the vaporighu are all from previous editions, and I think the moonbeast might as well. And all need revisions.
Zerowolf2nd 06-07-07, 07:52 PM	Hear are the 4 giants out of the manual, with some changes and updates. Many of the changes are suttle, but hopefully there good changes. P.S The crs are just my opinion change them if you like :) Also no idea how to do the spoiler thing, so if anyone could tell me that would be great... and now the giants Mountain Giant Colossal Giant (Earth) Hit Dice: 30d8+420 (555 hp) Initiative: +0 Speed: 55 ft in hide armor (11 squares); base speed 80 ft Armor Class: 34 (-8 size, +29 natural, +3 hide armor) touch 2, flat-footed 34 Base Attack/Grapple: +22/+56 Attack: Colossal Greatclub +27 melee (6d8+32 19-20/x2)*, or slam +27 melee (2d8+23)*, or rock +15 ranged (4d8+18) Full Attack: Colossal Greatclub +27/+22/+17/+12 melee (6d8+32 19-20/x2)*, or 2 slams +27 melee (2d8+23)*, or rock +15 ranged (4d8+18) Space/Reach: 30 ft/ 25 ft Special Attack: Crush, Fling, improved grab, rock throwing, trample 2d8+27 Special Qualities: Low-light vision, rock catching, scent, summon giants Saves: Fort +30, Ref +10, Will +10 Abilities: Str 46, Dex 10, Con 38, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 7 Skills: Climb +27, intimidate +7, Jump +36, Listen +15, Spot +15, Feats: Awesome blow, cleave, combat brute, combat reflexes, great cleave, improved bull rush, improved critical (greatclub), improved overrun, improved sunder, power attack, track. Environment: Any Mountainous Organization: Solitary, or family (2 plus 35% noncombatants plus 1 sorcerer or cleric of 3rd to 5th level plus 2-9 ogres, or 2-7 trolls, or 2-5 hill giants) Challenge Rating: 16 Treasure: Standard Alignment: Usually chaotic neutral Advancement: By character class Level Adjustment: – *5-point power attack “This Giant is of incredible proportions, cresting nearly 40 ft tall at the head, it has greasy, jet-black hair and very bulbous features with a tan to reddish brown skin tone. It’s dressed in furs and leathers a large pot belly sticking out from underneath them. ” Combat Crush (Ex): Area 30 ft. by 30 ft.; Large or smaller opponents take 4d8+27 points of bludgeoning damage, and must succeed on a DC 39 Reflex save or be pinned Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a Mountain giant must hit with a slam attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check it establishes a hold and can fling on its next turn. Fling (Ex): A mountain giant that successfully grapples a foe Huge size or smaller can then hurl that creature as a standard action. A flung creature travels up to 120 feet and takes 12d6+18 points of damage. The giant can also throw the flung creature at another opponent. In this case the flung creature takes 12d6+18 points of damage, and any opponents it strikes take 4d8+18 points of damage. Rock throwing (Ex): The range increment is 120 feet for a mountain giants thrown rocks. Summon Giants (Sp): Once per day a mountain giant can attempt to summon 1d8+1 ogres, 1d6+1 trolls, or 1d4+1 hill giants with a 25% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell. Trample (Ex): Reflex half DC 33. The save DC is Strength-based. Forest Giant Huge Giant Hit Dice: 13d8+78 (136 hp) Initiative: +6 Speed: 40 ft (8 squares) Armor Class: 23 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +11 natural, +2 leather armor) touch 9, flat-footed 21 Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+28 Attack: Greatclub +18 melee (3d8+16), or mighty composite longbow (+11 Str) +9 ranged (3d6+11), or rock +10 ranged (2d8+11) Full Attack: Greatclub +18/+13 melee (3d8+16), or mighty composite longbow (+11 Str) +9/+4 ranged (3d6+11/x3), or rock +10 ranged (2d8+11) Space/Reach: 15 ft/15 ft Special Attack: Poisoned arrows, poison use, rock throwing Special Qualities: Low-light vision, rock catching Saves: Fort +13, Ref +6, Will +7 Abilities: Str 33, Dex 14, Con 22, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 21 Skills: Diplomacy +10, Hide +15*, Listen +19, Sense Motive +19, Spot +19 Feats: Far Shot, improved initiative, point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot Environment: Any forest Organization: Solitary, pair, gang (3-5), Band (6-9 plus 35% noncombatants plus 1 1st or 2nd level druid), or hunting/raiding party (6-9 plus 35% noncombatants plus 1 3rd or 5th level druid) Challenge Rating: 8 Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items Alignment: Usually true neutral Advancement: By character class Level Adjustment: +4 “This giant looks to be a rather beautiful wood elf dressed in leather armor and holding a giant longbow in one hand, with earth yellow skin and unkempt pale green hair. Lanky, but with a muscular build, and standing nearly 18 feet tall, this giants is an imposing sight.” Combat Poison arrows (Ex): Forest giants coat their arrows with a poison that causes their opponents to fall asleep for several rounds. Injury, Fortitude DC 22, initial and secondary damage is Unconsciousness for 4d4 rounds. Poison use (Ex): Due to their long tradition of working with venoms, forest giants are never at risk when applying poisons to weapons. Common poisons include their own unique poison as well as Dark reaver powder and blue whinnis (See Dungeons masters Guide Table 8-3 for a list of more poisons). Rock Throwing (Ex): The Range increment is 120 feet for a forest giant’s thrown rocks Skills: Forest giant’s have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks. *In wooded areas, this bonus rises to +8 Ocean Giant Huge Giant (Cold, Aquatic) Hit Dice: 18d8+162 (243 hp) Initiative: +6 Speed: 40 ft (8 squares), swim 80 ft Armor Class: 26 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +16 natural) touch 10, flat-footed 24 Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+35 Attack: Trident +20 melee (3d6+26)*, or slam +20 melee (1d6+19)*, or tail slap +20 melee (1d10+12)*, or rock +14 ranged (2d8+14) Full Attack: Trident +20/+15/+10 melee (3d6+26)*, and tail slap +15 melee (1d10+12)*, or 2 slams +20 melee (1d6+19)* and tail slap +15 melee (1d10+12)*, or rock +14 ranged (2d8+14) Space/Reach: 15 ft/ 15 ft Special Attack: Rock throwing Special Qualities: Amphibious, Blunt weapon immunity, darkvision 60 ft, immune to cold, low-light vision, landform, rock catching Saves: Fort +, Ref +, Will + Abilities: Str 39, Dex 15, Con 28, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 18 Skills: Diplomacy +6, Listen +16, Sense motive +16, Spot +16, Swim +30* Feats: Awesome Blow, Combat reflexes, improved bull rush, improved initiative, point blank shot, power attack, swim-by attack Environment: Any Aquatic Organization: Solitary, pair, or family (3-8 plus 35% noncombatants plus 1 7th or 10th level cleric or sorcerer and 2-8 sea cats) Challenge Rating: 12 Treasure: Double Standard Alignment: Usually neutral good Advancement: By character class Level Adjustment: – *5-point power attack “This giant is large and barrel-chested, with coppery skin and long flowing white hair. Its face has a leonine quality to it with knowing eyes. Very little covers the body of this creature except a simple belt pouch which hangs just above the strange fish like tail that covers the bottom half of this giant’s body.” Combat Amphibious (Ex): Although ocean giants are aquatic, they can survive indefinitely on land Blunt weapon Immunity (Ex): An ocean giant takes no damage from bludgeoning weapons. Rock throwing (Ex): The range increment is 160 feet for a ocean giant’s thrown rocks. Land form (Su): This ability allows the ocean giant to assume the form of a huge humanoid-shaped giant and return to its natural form at will. An ocean giant in landform can walk on land but possesses no tail attack. This ability can not be dispelled, nor does the giant revert to its natural state when killed. Skills: An ocean giant has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or to avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line. * Ocean giants ignore all weight penalties for gear carried when swimming. Sun Giant Huge Giant (Fire) Hit Dice: 13d8+91 (149 hp) Initiative: +2 Speed: 40 ft Armor Class: 21 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +10 natural, +1 silk swathes) touch 10, flat-footed 19 Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+30 Attack: Gargantuan Longspear +20 melee (4d6+19/x3) or rock +10 ranged (2d8+13) Full Attack: Longspear +20/15 melee (4d6+19/x3) or rock +10 ranged (2d8+13) Space/Reach: 15 ft/15 ft Special Attack: Rock throwing, spell-like abilities Special Qualities: Low-light vision, immune to fire, oversized weapon, rock catching, vulnerability to cold Saves: Fort +15, Ref +6, Will +8 Abilities: Str 37, Dex 14, Con 25, Int 15, Wis 18, Cha 14 Skills: Handle Animal +15, Hide +11*, Listen +19, Ride +16, Spot +19 Feats: Cavalry Charger, combat casting, mounted combat, spirited charge, trample Environment: Any Desert Organization: Solitary, pair, gang (3-5), or family (3-8 plus 35% noncombatants plus 1 4th or 6th level adept, cleric, sorcerer plus 3-8 Giant banded Lizards (Adv. 8 HD)) Challenge Rating: 10 Treasure: Standard Alignment: Usually neutral Advancement: By character class Level Adjustment: +4 “This giant resembles a lean, muscular human, its skin wrinkled and ashen from years of living in harsh desert like conditions. Its most striking feature is its eyes, which can be seen beneath its flowing robes, to be a very vibrant and sparkling blue.” Combat Rock Throwing (Ex): The range increment is 140 feet for a Sun giants thrown rocks. Oversized Weapon (Ex): A sun giant wields a great, two-handed longspear (big enough for gargantuan creatures) with-out penalty. Spell-Like Abilities: At will – Spike stones (DC 16), stone shape, wall of stone (DC 17), Caster level 13th. The save DC’s are Charisma-based *Skills: Sun giants have a +4 racial bonus to hide, +8 in desert areas Right, and their they are
HuManBing 06-07-07, 09:55 PM	This horse looked alive, which apparently means it's okay for me to beat it :) Does anybody know if there are updated Death Knights? I'm pretty sure these were in MM2 but not in Libris Mortis. Death Knights were cool.
babyshaker89 06-08-07, 03:35 AM	The nightmare beast needs a major overhaul, it has 11 CHA and has way too many SPA(the DC=10 + spell level, WTF) and its nightmare ability should be more direct
Zerowolf2nd 06-08-07, 02:19 PM	Alright heres a revised nightmare beast, let me know what you think. Hopefully its what you were looking for. Nightmare Beast Huge Magical Beast Hit Dice: 15d10+105 (180 hp) Initiative: +1 Speed: 30 ft Armor Class: 21 (-2 size, +1 Dex, +12 natural) touch 9, flat-footed 20 Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+32 Attack: Tusk +22 melee (4d6+9 17-20/x3), or claw +22 melee (2d6+4 19-20/x3), or bite +22 melee (4d6+4 19-20/x3) Full Attack: 2 Tusks +22 melee (4d6+9 17-20/x3), and 2 claws +20 melee (2d6+4 19-20/x3), and bite +20 melee (4d6+4 19-20/x3) Space/Reach: 15 ft/ 10 ft Special Attack: Nightmares, spell-like abilities, trample 4d6+13 Special Qualities: Augmented critical, darkvision 60 ft, DR 15/magic, enhanced attributes, Frightful presence, low-light vision, SR 20 Saves: Fort +16, Ref +10, Will +8 Abilities: Str 28, Dex 13, Con 24, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 14 Skills: Jump +24, Spot +10 Feats: Cleave, Improved critical (tusk), improved bull rush, improved overrun, iron will, multiattack Environment: Any Land Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: Treasure: 1/10th coins, 50% goods, 50% items Alignment: Always chaotic evil Advancement: 16-30 HD (Huge), 31-45 HD (Gargantuan) Level Adjustment: – “Before you is a creature straight out of a nightmare, standing 20 feet tall and with tusks the size of cavalry lances. Its mouth is full of dagger like teeth, its hide covered in dark purplish grey splotches, bony plates in-between. Its most striking features are its malevolent red eyes, the size of a mans head each, glowing fiercely” Combat Augmented Critical (Ex): The nightmare beast’s bite threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 19-20, dealing triple damage on a successful hit. Enhanced Attributes (Ex): The save DC for the nightmare beast’s special attacks, spells and spell-like abilities are increased by +4, this bonus is already taken into account. Frightful Presence (Su): The Nightmare beast can inspire terror by charging or attack. Affected creatures must succeed on a DC 23 Will save or become shaken, remaining in that condition as long as they remain within 30 feet of the nightmare beast. The save DC is Charisma-based. Nightmares (Su): Every intelligent creature that falls asleep within 10 miles of a nightmare beast must succeed on a DC 21 Will save or be affected as if by the spell nightmare (CL 15th; Will save 21), except that a dispel evil spell cast on the victim does not stun the nightmare beast. A remove curse or a successful dispel magic negates the effect. Once a creature has either been affected by this ability or made a successful save, it cannot be affected by that nightmare beast’s nightmare power again for 24 hours. Spell-like Abilities: 2/day–Chain lightning, cloudkill, dimension door (1,000 ft range), disintegrate, dispel magic, fireball, heat metal, incendiary cloud, lightning bolt, monster summoning V, wall of fire. CL 15th; save DC is 16+spell level. Trample (Ex): Reflex half DC 30. The save DC is Strength-based
Armoracia Rusticana 06-08-07, 03:19 PM	Well... Why Mountain Giant has Improved Grab (Claw) when he hasn't one?
Zerowolf2nd 06-08-07, 03:50 PM	Whoops, dually noted and corrected... heh that happens.
Paladin's Pride 01-28-08, 10:20 AM	Here's a stab at a 3.5, CR 16 Deathbringer: Deathbringer Large Undead Hit Dice: 16d12 +80 (184hp) Initiative: +4 Speed: 50 ft. Armor Class: 33 (-1 size, +4 dex, +16 natural, +4 armor), touch 13, flat-foot 29 Face/Reach: 10 ft. / 10 ft. BAB/Grapple: +16*/+26 Attack: Large Flail +23 (2d6+10) Full Attack: Large Flail +19/+14/+9/+4 (2d6+10) and large flail +19/+14/+9 (2d6+7) Special Attacks: Graymantle, Greater Dispelling Special Qualities: DR 15/silver, Martial Blessing, SR 28, Unholy Toughness. Saving throws: +5 Fortitude, +9 Reflex, +12 Will Abilities: Strength 22 Dexterity 19 Constitution - Intelligence 13 Wisdom 14 Charisma 21 Skills: Concentration +24, Intimidate +24, Jump +25, Listen +21, Spot +21, Feats: Combat Brute (CW), Combat Expertise, Greater Two Weapon Fighting(B), Greater Weapon Focus: Flail (B), Greater Weapon Specialization: Flail (B), Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder (B), Improved Trip (+14), Improved Two Weapon Fighting (B), Power Attack, Shock Trooper (CW), Two Weapon Fighting(B), Weapon Focus: flail (B), Weapon Specialization: flail (B) (SRD friendly variant: replace underlined feats with Combat Reflexes, Knock-down, and Two-Weapon Defense; lower Intimidate to +14, add Tumble +14) Challenge Rating: 16? Advancement: By character class Equipment: Masterwork Chain Shirt Organization: Solitary, or Warband (1 deathbringer plus 1d4 devourers plus 4-8 mohrgs plus 5-20 Mummies) Greater Dispelling(Sp): Usable at will, Caster level 20. Greymantle (Su): Negative energy floods the area around the Deathbringer in a 60 ft. emanation. All living creatures must roll DC 23 Fortitude saving throws or be unable to heal damage naturally while in the area. (the saving throw is Charisma-based) Dying creatures will not stabilize without magical healing. This also suppresses Regeneration and Fast Healing effects in living creatures. Any healing spells cast in the area must succeed in a DC 28 caster level check or fail. (the DC is based on the Deathbringer’s SR) Undead creatures in the area (including the Deathbringer) gain Fast Healing 10. Extremely powerful creatures, such as deities, Abominations, and the Tarrasque are unaffected by this ability. Martial Blessing (Ex): Deathbringers have the BAB and bonus feats of a Fighter equal to their Hit Dice. For purposes of prerequisites, they are treated as having fighter levels equal to their Hit Dice. Unholy Toughness (Su): Deathbringers receive bonus hit points equal to their charisma modifier per Hit Die. Design notes: The idea was to take the basic concept and bring it more in line with existing rules & standards. I tried to identify the salient elements: Large Dual-wielding flails Greater dispelling burst Some sort of “negative Energy” heal-allies-hurt-foes ability Combat-oriented “Trampling” / overwhelming opponents The Negative Energy burst was both under-powered and uninspiring, so I replaced it with Graymantle. The non-SRD feats replace the original Trample ability. Instead of cranking up the hit dice, I used Martial Blessing to give it what amount to “virtual Fighter levels”, and used that Unholy Toughness to boost its hit points into survivability range. (though I’m not certain that the Charisma score needs to be as high as it is) The attack bonus seems low for a CR 16. Especially since its tactics should include Sunder & Disarm, (bonus from using Flail) and are resolved by opposed attack rolls. Even when it’s not trying to Sunder or Disarm, in order to benefit from Two-Weapon Defense it must take a penalty to its attacks from Fighting Defensively. (SRD friendly version) Masterwork or magical weapons might work to boost the bonuses I suppose. I could give it greater magic weapon usable at will, so that it’s always using +4 weapons, but I’m not sure I like that. I could boost the Strength score (which helps Bull Rush, Trip, and Sunder as well) but how high should the strength score be for this Large Undead? I’m already fudging things somewhat with a 19 Dexterity score to qualify for Greater TWF. The Fortitude saving throw is terribly low, and disintegrate is a popular tactic against undead. One solution is to drop the Unholy Toughness & Martial Blessing, double the number of hit dice, and drop the fighter-specific feats (Specialization, Greater Focus, and Greater Specialization) and drop the Charisma score, since the base DC for Graymantle is now 26. (Thanks to the sleight-of-hand from martial blessing and Unholy Toughness, the net changes are only +5 Fort, +5 Reflex, +8 Will, +24 hit points, and higher skill bonuses) On the other hand, it does have good SR, so maybe the weak Fortitude save is not a severe problem. It’s actually vulnerable to Turning right now. (maybe Greymantle should also provide Turn Resistance equal to the Charisma bonus to all undead in the area? Or maybe it should simply always be encountered with weaker undead? Or both?) At double the HD, it would be turning-proof, and I’m not sure I want that because high CR undead immune to turning from having buckets of HD marginalize clerics to a certain extent. (they already marginalize rogues by being immune to Sneak Attack) Or is it OK to have a high CR undead that could possible be turned and/or disintegrated? The non-SRD feats were intended to give this creature a more ‘tactical/battlefield’ feel. The flavor text described them as leading undead armies, so I thought the ability to break an enemy’s lines and overwhelm foes worked better than the original’s “trample” attack. Swapping out for SRD feats results in a tweaking of the skills, because in order to gain the benefit of Two Weapon Defense, the creature must be Fighting Defensively, and if you’ve got buckets of skill points, why not get the Synergy from Tumble for Fighting Defensively? Moreover, if the creature can’t effectively shove its way through enemy ranks, it should be able to tumble through them to maximize its reach and Combat Reflexes) So, critique the creation and see if it holds up. Hey, I hope it's alright if I do a little thread necromancy here. I just found this thread and I really appreciate all the great work you have done. I wanted to comment on the deathbringer. I wonder if an ability like this would bring it's attacks up to par. Unholy Prowess (Su): A deathbringer adds its charisma bonus as a profane bonus to attack rolls and weapon damage rolls. You might also consider giving the creature perfect two-weapon fighting which would increase it's attack rolls during a full-attack by 4 each. If that doesn't suit you from a flavor standpoint, at least consider swapping out one of the feats for oversized two-weapon fighting (from Comlete adventurer) which would increase its attack rolls by 2 since it would negate the extra penalty for using a one-handed weapon in its off-hand. Also, instead of giving it greater dispelling at will, I would say let it cast greater dispelling (with a caster level of 16) as an immediate action 3/day. The deathbringer's coolness factor comes from the fact that it can wade into battle and make a ton of attacks with it's flails. Having it spend its actions dispelling seems a waste. In addition, making it an immediate action a few times per day could allow it to counterspell, which would provide a little more cover against it's disintegrate achille's heel.