Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Forgehome 11-09-03, 01:22 AM	A Githzerai invasion? What about an 'insect' invasion and more specifically a Formian? :invasion: How could it happen? Who would lead it? What stages would it progress through? What different 'types' of formians can we create? What is their goal? How can they be stopped?How could it happen? Looking forward to your input. The more the merrier!
gradea 11-09-03, 07:50 PM	formian attack a, lets say elven nation (most likely to have chaotic rulers). led by the formain verson of an arch devil, they come trhough a portal thier mortal followers made (a huge, mechanical device). they would occupy land and enforce thier rules, imprisining and terminating any who disagreed. there are new formian already in the fiend folio, and a formian touched template would be easy to make, plus axmonic exists and we can make half axmonic. goal is to stomp out chaos. method domination and education.
Darkest90 11-09-03, 09:05 PM	A typical formian army, in my opinion... Warriors and Taskmasters in the front: 20 - 120 Warriors and maybe 5 - 30 Taskmasters. Attacking like crazy and pulling back to the worker mob when they get to low health. Taskmasters dominating everyone they can and using them in the front lines of the warriors. The taskmasters want those that they dominate to die first and sheild the warriors. Mymarchs and Workers behind them: 4 - 32 Mymarchs and possibly 60 - 180 Workers. The Mymarchs are being guarded by the Warriors and using their spell-like abilities. If their queen is endangered they will pull back and protect her. Workers will act as a defensive barrier if their queen is endangered, making a ring. They will also operate in groups of eight, healing everyone they can. The order of healing priority is: Queen, Mymarch, Taskmaster, Warrior. They don't try to heal other workers as it is a waste of time. If they start losing, a quarter of the workers will go up to the front and fight with the warriors, the other three quarters will probably run away. Queen, Taskmasters, and Warriors in the back: Maybe 10 Warriors, 10 Taskmasters in the back with the Queen. The Queen will try to get as close as she can and try to use her spells, while the Warriors and Taskmasters will be continually trying to protect her. The only considerable weakness would be that if they were attacked from the air, they would probably die. If their queen dies, they would probably scatter. Area of effect spells would put them out real good. The Formians like to be close to eachother, so no use in solving that. With their Hive Mind ability, if there was an area of effect projectile (catapult projectiles), they would be very good at quickly scattering so that it does little harm to them. An easy way to get them would to use major defensive meat shields in the front while fast, heavy-damage dealing units come in from the side, hacking at the workers (and maybe the queen), and then pulling back. They might use ranged weapons. Deepwood Snipers would be the end of them. As for the air thing, you could give them some anti-air forces. Mercenaries perhaps, and I could see Warriors and Mymarchs using crossbows, and Taskmasters dominating any aerial forces and using them as anti air. If they were attacking a castle wall, the warriors would try to climb the wall or protect the others WHILE the workers try to burrow under the walls. Taskmasters using their dominating abilities to those up on the top of the wall to cause some distraction. The spell Dictum, which the queen has at will, would be very useful and banging out chaotic foes. The Queen would be using that mainly, making enemies confused while her warriors pick them off.
Shemeska the Marauder 11-09-03, 10:15 PM	Originally posted by Forgehome [I] How can they be stopped? They can be stopped when the Modrons clean them from the face of Mechanus and push them back to their original plane of Arcadia.
Romulus LoneWolf 11-09-03, 10:52 PM	Originally posted by Darkest90 A typical formian army, in my opinion... Warriors and Taskmasters in the front: 20 - 120 Warriors and maybe 5 - 30 Taskmasters. Attacking like crazy and pulling back to the worker mob when they get to low health. Taskmasters dominating everyone they can and using them in the front lines of the warriors. The taskmasters want those that they dominate to die first and sheild the warriors. Mymarchs and Workers behind them: 4 - 32 Mymarchs and possibly 60 - 180 Workers. The Mymarchs are being guarded by the Warriors and using their spell-like abilities. If their queen is endangered they will pull back and protect her. Workers will act as a defensive barrier if their queen is endangered, making a ring. They will also operate in groups of eight, healing everyone they can. The order of healing priority is: Queen, Mymarch, Taskmaster, Warrior. They don't try to heal other workers as it is a waste of time. If they start losing, a quarter of the workers will go up to the front and fight with the warriors, the other three quarters will probably run away. Queen, Taskmasters, and Warriors in the back: Maybe 10 Warriors, 10 Taskmasters in the back with the Queen. The Queen will try to get as close as she can and try to use her spells, while the Warriors and Taskmasters will be continually trying to protect her. The only considerable weakness would be that if they were attacked from the air, they would probably die. If their queen dies, they would probably scatter. Area of effect spells would put them out real good. The Formians like to be close to eachother, so no use in solving that. With their Hive Mind ability, if there was an area of effect projectile (catapult projectiles), they would be very good at quickly scattering so that it does little harm to them. An easy way to get them would to use major defensive meat shields in the front while fast, heavy-damage dealing units come in from the side, hacking at the workers (and maybe the queen), and then pulling back. They might use ranged weapons. Deepwood Snipers would be the end of them. As for the air thing, you could give them some anti-air forces. Mercenaries perhaps, and I could see Warriors and Mymarchs using crossbows, and Taskmasters dominating any aerial forces and using them as anti air. If they were attacking a castle wall, the warriors would try to climb the wall or protect the others WHILE the workers try to burrow under the walls. Taskmasters using their dominating abilities to those up on the top of the wall to cause some distraction. The spell Dictum, which the queen has at will, would be very useful and banging out chaotic foes. The Queen would be using that mainly, making enemies confused while her warriors pick them off. Don't have the Fiend Folio? Because they mention three other kinds of Formians in there who might have a place in your little army: The giant flea-like Armadon Shock Troops, the multi-eyed Observers, and the wasp-like Winged Warriors. Well, the picture in the Fiend Folio looks more like a dragonfly like critter, but I prefer the imagery of a Wasp or a Flying Ant, to fit the Formian theme.
Ryltar Swordsong 11-09-03, 11:08 PM	Formians? Bah, the Modrons are better.http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ModronAnim.gif
Forgehome 11-10-03, 01:43 AM	Thankyou everyone for your help so far! My plan is to have the party arrive in Mechnus (I'm sure I spelled this incorrectly) and met an invading army of Formians. The party contain a gnome(unbenownst to him) who is a native, part of a gnomish clan who constructs/smiths modrons, golems etc whose home has been invaded and was forced to flee across the planes. A tumble into the river Styx fixed up his memory of all of his past life. The adventure will involve a conflict of gnome/constructs/? against the Formians who currently occupy all of the gnomes lands. gradea formian attack a, lets say elven nation (most likely to have chaotic rulers). led by the formain verson of an arch devil, they come trhough a portal thier mortal followers made (a huge, mechanical device). they would occupy land and enforce thier rules, imprisining and terminating any who disagreed. there are new formian already in the fiend folio, and a formian touched template would be easy to make, plus axmonic exists and we can make half axmonic. goal is to stomp out chaos. method domination and education. gradea, what would happen to the general populace if a common land was over run? Template? What do you suggest? Romulus LoneWolf Don't have the Fiend Folio? Because they mention three other kinds of Formians in there who might have a place in your little army: The giant flea-like Armadon Shock Troops, the multi-eyed Observers, and the wasp-like Winged Warriors. Well, the picture in the Fiend Folio looks more like a dragonfly like critter, but I prefer the imagery of a Wasp or a Flying Ant, to fit the Formian theme. Unfortunately I don't have the Fiend Folio. Can you give me any details on these creatures? The Winged warriors sound particularly interesting. Darkest90 The only considerable weakness would be that if they were attacked from the air, they would probably die. If their queen dies, they would probably scatter. Area of effect spells would put them out real good. Would the Winged Warriors Romulus Lonewolf described from the Fiend Folio rectify this weakness? Shemeska the Marauder They can be stopped when the Modrons clean them from the face of Mechanus and push them back to their original plane of Arcadia. :cloud9: I love the idea of a Modron/Formian War. What abilities do the Modrons have over the Formians and visa versa? Ryltar Swordsong, great picture:king: Any more ideas/info' on Modrons I could use?
Shemeska the Marauder 11-10-03, 02:23 AM	Two things: First is a minor one, but important one. Modrons aren't smithed or otherwise created. A certain number exists and when a modron dies one of a rank below it is instantly promoted to the next open slot in the heirarchy complete with all the abilities of its new rank, and this happens down the heirarchy till the lowest rank of monodrone is reached at which point a new monodrone modron is simply created out of the essence of Mechanus from the dissolved energy of that first dead modron. In essence: the little critters are self ressurrecting and thus rather impossible to kill by most known methods. Primus, the paragon of modron society, himself the equivalent of a greater deity has been slain before in fact. Without getting into the rather unique way and the reasons behind it, the modron collective didn't simply collapse and when it became possible, a new primus was created in the same way as if any other modron had been killed. As for modron stats and abilities: there's a web enhancement to the Manual of the Planes that WotC put out that has all of that information. One important thing regarding a Formian/Modron war which well, is rather inevitable. The Formains are native to Arcadia, the Modrons are native to Mechanus itself. There are other races and creatures native to Mechanus allied with the Modrons and not allied with the Formians such as the Moinos, Gear Spirits, likely the Inevitables, etc. And other independant races such as the Parai that would side with the Modrons in the face of the colinization attempt by an outside force such as the Formians. Additionally, I can see the Fraternity of Order, a mortal organization, formerly one of the Factions of Sigil, siding with the Modrons as well. Also, the Harmonium, another mortal organization and formerly a Faction of Sigil, which was responsible for the slide of the lowest layer of Arcadia into Mechanus which brought the Formians there in the first place, are trying their hardest to reverse that planar slide and return that layer to Arcadia. If they did the Formians would likely lose a large chunk of their forces in Mechanus, and the rest would likely be stranded on the plane. Also, the Modrons are in control solidly of the most important, largest, and most vital gears of Mechanus. While the Formians may have suddenly and swiftly colinized a much larger number of gears, in Mechanus not all gears are the same size or hold the same importance. The Modrons are part and parcel of the plane of Mechanus itself and its likely that those deities present in Mechanus would instantly side with them versus the Formians in the event of a Modron/Formian war. Thus my feeling that the Formians would be utterly outclassed should conflict begin.
JustKim 11-10-03, 05:28 PM	If you want to go a more ironic, War of the Worlds route, ants breathe through tiny orifices called spiracles along their bodies. Unlike whales, who can close their blowhole to prevent from drowning, ants are completely incapable of holding their breath. This is why pesticides work so well as gasses, and why ants are so terrified of water. Since formians are basically humanoid ants they may be just as susceptible to drowning, and annihilating their armies could be as simple as introducing waist-height water.
Forgehome 11-10-03, 05:35 PM	I'm sure I read something about the formian ultimate queen having her colony on the "master clog", the clog in which all the other clogs are "powered" from? if this is the case wouldn't it be important to vanquish this colony to gain control of the plane or at least it's power source? Do you have a link I could go to for more information on Mechanus? You mentioned a WotC web enhancement. Where would I find it? What are the Moinos and Gear Spirits? Where would I get information on the Fraternity of Order and the Harmonium? I have the MotP but can not remember reading about these creatures or organisations. What would happen if the Formians manufacture their own mechanical soldiers??
L33t Angel 11-10-03, 05:46 PM	The information whcih Shemeska is talking about is not 3rd Edition material as she forgets to remind people. It is old Planescape material. In Planescape (which was the place that started the Great Wheel Cosmology and worked at most of the things in it and had a wealth of information) the main inhabitants of Mechanus were the Modrons, THEY controlled the cogs of Mechanus not the Formaians. The Formians were just introduced creatures due to the Harmonium's shifting of Arcadia's layer. The Modrons have been de-importanced in the new cosmology and as such you're not going to hear much about them. Their importance is much much less, or at least it isn't stated, in this new edition than in the old edition. Moignos and Gear Spirits are beings native to Mechanus, they're also from Planescape. The Fraternity of Order and the Harmonium are both Factions. In Planescape, Sigil (the hub of the planes) is run by Factions. These factions have their own agendas and views on how the universe should be run. The Harmonium are an extremely lawfl bunch who value law over everything. They try to find an undermining code to the universe. Not surprisingly they are found on Mechanus, which is where they have their new base of operations. Faction members are often called Hardheads. The Harmonium are the reason why the third layer of Arcadia slid into Mechanus and brought the Formians to the Cog Plane. Its not a proud moment of their careers.
Ryltar Swordsong 11-10-03, 09:19 PM	Originally posted by Forgehome I'm sure I read something about the formian ultimate queen having her colony on the "master clog", the clog in which all the other clogs are "powered" from? if this is the case wouldn't it be important to vanquish this colony to gain control of the plane or at least it's power source? No, there is no "master cog". And each formian hive has a queen. If there is a cog that powers the other cogs, it would most likely be the cog where Primus resides.
Forgehome 11-10-03, 09:45 PM	Check your Manual of the Planes book.
L33t Angel 11-10-03, 09:53 PM	Pft. Manual of the Planes just barely MENTIONS Modrons, the most important creature son Mechanus, the exemplars of Law! And the "Center cog" nonsense is crazy. First off, Mechanus is infinite, so no center nothing. Secondly, the Formians are just nogood freeloaders in Mechanus. To say that they have any true power of the workings of the cogs is madness and Formian propoganda. Damn ants.
Ryltar Swordsong 11-10-03, 10:00 PM	The Manual of the Planes is so bad I don't even pull it off the shelf I have it on. I refer to my Planescape collection for my planar needs. L33t Angel, note that I said "If there is a...". I don't believe there is a "master/center/power cog".
L33t Angel 11-10-03, 10:03 PM	I know, I was talking to Forge who was saying that the MotP says that the Formians DO have a Center cog. Or at least they "may". And I was scoffing at that not at you.
L33t Angel 11-10-03, 10:03 PM	I know, I was talking to Forge who was saying that the MotP says that the Formians DO have a Center cog. Or at least they "may". And I was scoffing at that not at you.
Romulus LoneWolf 11-10-03, 10:14 PM	Ok, anyone else think we've heard enough whining from the Planescape Die-Har Worshippers/Modron Lovers/MotP Haters? :rolleyes: Anyways, back on Topic: In my campaign, I'm using a different Cosmology, but I still plan on including a "Plane of Law/Cosmic Machines" that houses some Lords of Order, or similar Godlike beings of Law. This plane will be inhabited by Modrons, Inevitables -and- Formians, each of whom will have different functions: Inevitables Enforce the Laws of the Cosmos, Modrons maintain the Plane itself, while Formians go forth and "educate" lesser beings to spread the Rule of Law to other Planes. ...Mind you, I'm also picturing my campaign's Formians as being bio-mechanical ant-like creatures, just to fit the theme of Mechanical-Law. As for Formian tactics themselves, I like to see them as relatively benevolent conquerors. With the Taskmasters to peacefully put down rebellions and "influence" crowds, Formian Mymarchs might be able to convince conquered populations that obeying Formian rule would be in their best interest, and that they would benefit from it, as well.
Dackad 11-10-03, 10:22 PM	Originally posted by L33t Angel Pft. Manual of the Planes just barely MENTIONS Modrons, the most important creature son Mechanus, the exemplars of Law! Who cares, Modrons suck. Go Inevitables! As for Formian tactics, think of ants. They swarm over their opponents, thats the way I see formians fighting.
Dackad 11-10-03, 10:23 PM	Originally posted by L33t Angel Pft. Manual of the Planes just barely MENTIONS Modrons, the most important creature son Mechanus, the exemplars of Law! Who cares, Modrons suck. Good riddance. As for Formian tactics, think of ants. They swarm over their opponents, thats the way I see formians fighting.
Shemeska the Marauder 11-10-03, 10:47 PM	Originally posted by Romulus LoneWolf Ok, anyone else think we've heard enough whining from the Planescape Die-Har Worshippers/Modron Lovers/MotP Haters? :rolleyes: Well, I figure that Planescape 3e will have something to say about the Formian attempt to colonize Mechanus, as well as the various attempts to 'repatriate' the 3rd layer of Arcadia back to Arcadia that brought them into Mechanus in the first place. And no, you've not heard whining yet. In fact you've not yet seen me begin to post angry. Gehenna forbid and shelter you when I ever do. And I'm less a MotP hater (Given it had to try and condense all of the Planescape line into one book, it did a decent job with some exceptions like the Formian/Modron thing) or a Modron Lover, than I am a Planescape fiend... *smiles pleasantly with eyes casting just a hint of light across the otherwise dim room*
Romulus LoneWolf 11-10-03, 10:54 PM	Originally posted by Dackad As for Formian tactics, think of ants. They swarm over their opponents, thats the way I see formians fighting. Or perhaps like the Bugs in Starship Troopers? ...Ok, the movie was stupid, but it had some darn cool Bugs, which I admit are very much how I would picture a Formian Army might look. Although I see them as being slightly more organised then just "Rush and Swarm", at least with Mymarch commanders involved. The Fiend Folio's additional Formians add even more variety: I could see a swarm of Warriors with Mymarch commanders and Armadon Shock Units for acid spray fire support, with a flight of Winged Warriors for additional Air Support, and some additional conscripted warriors under Taskmaster Domination...
Romulus LoneWolf 11-10-03, 10:57 PM	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder Well, I figure that Planescape 3e will have something to say about the Formian attempt to colonize Mechanus, as well as the various attempts to 'repatriate' the 3rd layer of Arcadia back to Arcadia that brought them into Mechanus in the first place. And no, you've not heard whining yet. In fact you've not yet seen me begin to post angry. Gehenna forbid and shelter you when I ever do. And I'm less a MotP hater (Given it had to try and condense all of the Planescape line into one book, it did a decent job with some exceptions like the Formian/Modron thing) or a Modron Lover, than I am a Planescape fiend... *smiles pleasantly with eyes casting just a hint of light across the otherwise dim room* All right, it's a fair cop. I apologize for the insult.
Ob_Deamon 11-11-03, 12:17 AM	Personally I prefer the Dicefreaks take on the matter of Modrons/Formians/Inevitables. The way I visualize the Formain armies is sort of like a combo ant swarm/Roman legion. You have, for lack of a beter term, centuries of formain warriors, led by a group of Mymarchs each, all in rank and file. Scouting above the phalanxes would by Winged Formians, with a small unit of Observers for each century. Independant of the centuries would be units of Armadon shock troops, similar to the Roman support. A group of workers would remain out of combat, setting up camps and healing the wounded after combat. Taskmasters would be on call when nessisary. Combat would comprise of the Formians marching forward, engaging, then swarming over any enemy they could find, while fliers strafe the enemy, and Taskmasters try to convert key enemies.
Lord of the Ninth 11-11-03, 02:23 AM	The Roman army imagery is a very good idea. I imagine them definately all looking aobut the same and marching a definate pattern. Also, every single formian that has a movements speed is faster than a human, so a formian charge would look really cool. I imagine them surrounding a city in perfect unison, all the while making a sort of clicky insect-like noise. Then they suddenly stop moving and there is complete silence. A single Myrmarch adresses the city, demanding unconditional surrender with in an almost mechanical sounding voice. Then precede to destroy all chaos with lethal efficiency. Now for the issue of Modrons vs. Formians. I have to say that for an actual in game conlict the formians cannot win. We know this, it is Written. A stalemate might be reached, but that would the best the ant people could do. As for which group is superior in terms of meta-game coolness. I side with the modrons because I'm also a PS-fiend, not to say that Formians don't have a place in D&D and the core cosmology, they do, but they only get so many. It irks me that even after all this time WotC still hasn't put modrons into a book (the WE was good, but it's getting obsolete).
Lord of the Ninth 11-11-03, 02:23 AM	The Roman army imagery is a very good idea. I imagine them definately all looking aobut the same and marching a definate pattern. Also, every single formian that has a movements speed is faster than a human, so a formian charge would look really cool. I imagine them surrounding a city in perfect unison, all the while making a sort of clicky insect-like noise. Then they suddenly stop moving and there is complete silence. A single Myrmarch adresses the city, demanding unconditional surrender with in an almost mechanical sounding voice. Then precede to destroy all chaos with lethal efficiency. Now for the issue of Modrons vs. Formians. I have to say that for an actual in game conlict the formians cannot win. We know this, it is Written. A stalemate might be reached, but that would the best the ant people could do. As for which group is superior in terms of meta-game coolness. I side with the modrons because I'm also a PS-fiend, not to say that Formians don't have a place in D&D and the core cosmology, they do, but they only get so many. It irks me that even after all this time WotC still hasn't put modrons into a book (the WE was good, but it's getting obsolete).
Incenjucar 11-11-03, 02:51 AM	Hmnn.... PS Formorian image has a bug wearing a helmet, and with a fairly 'Roman' nose. As for Bugs vs. Mods... Modrons have a host of resistances and immunities. Modrons have a host magical and supernatural powers. Modrons don't have to train to get these. Modrons have untold eons of presence in Mechanus, and are more natural to it. They know more than the bugs ever could. The Mods win.
Simonj 11-11-03, 09:26 AM	It's just a feeling I get, but I think WOTC is moving towards the inevitables as the sort of Archon/Guardinial/Eladrin/Rilmani/Slaad/Demon/Devil/Yugloth sort of deal.
Kyy'Dakh 11-11-03, 12:39 PM	I've only been around for D&D 3rd and 3.5, I don't own any PS books, and I own the MotP. That said, I like the modrons better. I think they're something I can really point to and say, "THAT is extreme lawful neutral." When I read about Formians, I always think lawful evil. As for Modrons vs. Formians: Modrons are resusitated/replaced when killed. Only way I can see Formians getting around that is to mess with the inherent laws of Mechanus, which is something I don't think they'd want to mess with.
Darkest90 11-11-03, 01:14 PM	You know... if there were enough Formians with enough weaponry and training... I am sure that they could imprison all the Modrons on maybe another plane. That way they wouldn't automatically ressurect. But... Law vs Law will be difficult. Formians with the spell Dictum at will would totally devestate any chaotic foe. Even with just the Queen having it. Hmmm... more on this later.
incarnadine 11-11-03, 01:28 PM	Originally posted by Darkest90 You know... if there were enough Formians with enough weaponry and training... I am sure that they could imprison all the Modrons on maybe another plane. That way they wouldn't automatically ressurect. But... Law vs Law will be difficult. Formians with the spell Dictum at will would totally devestate any chaotic foe. Even with just the Queen having it. Hmmm... more on this later. and keep in mind that all Formians share their thoughts. Rather nifty when planning attacks. There's no surprising Formians.
Dackad 11-11-03, 04:23 PM	Originally posted by Kyy'Dakh I've only been around for D&D 3rd and 3.5, I don't own any PS books, and I own the MotP. That said, I like the modrons better. I think they're something I can really point to and say, "THAT is extreme lawful neutral." When I read about Formians, I always think lawful evil. I don't see that at all, I see Formians as more of the sinister aspect of Lawful Neutral, kinda 'everyone has their place in society and that is what you'll do. No if's ands or butts.' I'd personally see Formians fitting in on Acheron more than Mechanus. While the Modrons I see as being 'I'm a doofy box with legs and I'm lawful neutral. Hyuck, hyuck.' As for Modrons vs. Formians: Modrons are resusitated/replaced when killed. Only way I can see Formians getting around that is to mess with the inherent laws of Mechanus, which is something I don't think they'd want to mess with. THAT'S why the Modrons would win. Formians have countless troops (most likely more than the Modrons) and are nearly immune to everything, but they still can't win. No matter how many Modrons get killed, I don't think that there's a way that they can all get killed. The formians don't have this luxury and thus, would probably lose such a war. I'd say that no matter how short (in planar sense) the war be, it will be planes rocking.
Amaranthine 11-11-03, 04:39 PM	The observer was originally posted on the website. It is here: The Formian Observer (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mm/mm20010928a)
Shemeska the Marauder 11-11-03, 05:01 PM	Originally posted by Dackad THAT'S why the Modrons would win. Formians have countless troops (most likely more than the Modrons) and are nearly immune to everything, but they still can't win. No matter how many Modrons get killed, I don't think that there's a way that they can all get killed. The formians don't have this luxury and thus, would probably lose such a war. The Modrons have around 360 million troops. Slightly higher but I don't have the exact number in front of me at the moment. And thats 360+ million almost instantly reviving troops all in perfect coordination under the command of Primus, who himself if ever killed also simply returns to the Modron energy pool and is returned to life in a new incarnation as one of the Secundus modrons is elevated to the position. So yep, the boxes with legs win :)
Darkest90 11-11-03, 05:47 PM	Here is how the Formians win... Somehow get all the Modrons in one place. Lock them up in a collossal unpenetrable cage. Shrink them and the cage to the size of an apple. Chuck them through a portal to the Elemental Plane of Air. Problem solved. Formians rule Mechanus. The Modrons can't be revived because they aren't dead. Still, very hard to do, but not impossible.
Incenjucar 11-11-03, 08:41 PM	1) The "Somehow" could be said for Formians. Only base modrons are stupid, remember. 2) Self-Destruct orders are hardly beyond a self-ressurecting LN army's scope. 3) Without the modrons, Mechanus starts breaking down. You think the Gear Spirits are going to associate with Ants? 4) If the Formoians resort to evil methods to win the war, they'll end up in Acheron or Baator.
(Psi)SeveredHead 11-11-03, 09:01 PM	Originally posted by JustKim If you want to go a more ironic, War of the Worlds route, ants breathe through tiny orifices called spiracles along their bodies. Unlike whales, who can close their blowhole to prevent from drowning, ants are completely incapable of holding their breath. This is why pesticides work so well as gasses, and why ants are so terrified of water. Since formians are basically humanoid ants they may be just as susceptible to drowning, and annihilating their armies could be as simple as introducing waist-height water. Where do you get this info from? It's completely untrue. For starters, there are ants in the Florida Keys (Cardiocondyla sp.) who can survive 12 hours under salt water. Formica ants that live in bogs can survive for two weeks underwater. They can close their spiracles. If they couldn't, they would dehydrate, and fast. (Hint: you can find ants in a desert.) Primitive arthropods, like pillbugs, can't close their spiracles, which is why they live under moist logs.
green_yawgmoth 11-11-03, 10:05 PM	hehe, I had a session where my party (evil campaign) attacked a small formian encampment. incredible how many formians a single necromancer, with a single casting of dance of ruin, can kill. 26 damage to everything in 55' of him is a lot of killing, especially when the half-orc just picked him up and threw him into the center of the camp. lesson: 30 5hp monsters != 1 150hp monster. :D
Oakspar77777 11-11-03, 10:27 PM	This is not a post on walking appliencies verses giant insects. It is on what a Formian invasion would look like. Going off of the Roman paradigm from J. Caesar's Gaulic War and Josephus' Jewish War a formian invasion would look something like this: Stage one: Emmisaries from the Formian Empire (Probably a Myrmarch with a retainer of two Taskmasters and twenty Warriors) will contact the government of the land to be conquored. Negotionations will go like this "In exchange for the protection and guidance of the Formian empire and her majesty Empress (Queen) XXXX, you will be levied an annual tax of XXXXXXXXXgp, collected quaterly. Failure to comply will result in your forceful occupation by the empirical legions." Stage two (comply): The Formians build a city, inhabit it with a Legion, and begin building other cities and roads and all those things that formian goodness. So long as the tax is paid, no one breaks the law, and peace is kept, the Formians build infustructure peacfully and put formian cities outside of every other city (and at regular intervals between). Stage two (not comply): The Formian Legions arrive with clearly superior numbers (at least 4 Warriors to every 1 defender). Formians would not send the emmisary unless victory was assured. Since no one could stand against their numbers and discipline in the open, siege is the only recourse. When sieging, the Formians surrond the city wall with a siege wall outside of bow/spell range. Thus, no one can get in or out. Every day the siege wall grows high as the worker build it up. Other workers build siege weapons, catapults to bombard the city with stone, balasta to clear the walls of defenders, rams to smash down walls, ladders, rolling towers, etc. Along the siege wall, large, iron shielded towers will be raise so that the Formians can shoot down into the city and keep the walls clear of defenders. Then, with the walls clear, Workers under movable shield houses of soaked leather move forward to fill in moats and build siege ramps up to the walls. Then, in unison, from multiple directions, the workers charge forward using large shield for cover. Using towers and ladders to scale, and rams to knock down, the wall is compromised. The Formians then reform ranks on the inside and go systematically street to street purging the town. All males are killed, and women and infants are put into slavery. SOURCES: Caesar's Commentary on the Gaulic War, Joseph (Whiston Translation) specificall Pompey against Jerusalem in the Antiquities and Vespation against Jotapata and Gamala in the Jewish Wars.
Forgehome 11-11-03, 11:38 PM	Thanks for all the ideas, purposefully or otherwise, in terms of the Formian Invasion. :bow: As i mentioned earlier, I plan on having the formians invade the allied forces of Mechinus (I'm sure this is spelled incorrectly again!). Obviously there are a lot of knowledgable individuals (particularly in planescape, which i assume was the more detailed predessor of MotP :r:) out there. I am extremely happy to draw as many ideas as I can from each of you. Forgive me I don't address what everyone has said, but the post list is very extensive!:cloud9: Stage one: Emmisaries from the Formian Empire (Probably a Myrmarch with a retainer of two Taskmasters and twenty Warriors) will contact the government of the land to be conquored. Negotionations will go like this "In exchange for the protection and guidance of the Formian empire and her majesty Empress (Queen) XXXX, you will be levied an annual tax of XXXXXXXXXgp, collected quaterly. Failure to comply will result in your forceful occupation by the empirical legions." Stage two (comply): The Formians build a city, inhabit it with a Legion, and begin building other cities and roads and all those things that formian goodness. So long as the tax is paid, no one breaks the law, and peace is kept, the Formians build infustructure peacfully and put formian cities outside of every other city (and at regular intervals between). Stage two (not comply): The Formian Legions arrive with clearly superior numbers (at least 4 Warriors to every 1 defender). Formians would not send the emmisary unless victory was assured. Since no one could stand against their numbers and discipline in the open, siege is the only recourse. Oakspar77777, this is an excellent steo by step method of invasion. :king: just a couple of quieries though. What would a formian city look like? Is it a huge mound of soil like an ants with chamber within and beneath? What is it constructed from if not soil? Amaranthine, thankyou very much for the link. It will be very useful. Lord of the ninth and Ob_Deamon, the Roman legion concept that Oakspar77777 (I'm assuming?) worked from and developed more in detail, was fantastic. i will definitely use this idea.:thumbsup: L33t Angel, Ryltar Swordsong and Shemeska the Marauder, I apoligise for my lack of knowledge in terms of planescape. My knowledge is limited to the relatively recent publication of the MotP. I would love to learn more about the setting though and gain access to some of the old texts. Please give me a break though, in terms of my 'planescape planar knowledge'. I did not realize that there was such a hard core following of the 2nd Ed publications.:D Romulus LoneWolf, i like your idea of a mechanical formian. What about the idea that the formians have learnt a method in creating mechanical versions of themselves to assist in battles/work etc?? In terms of Modrons, my knowledge is limited. Anyone care to posts some stats/information? Thanks for everyones help. :tiphat:
Lord of the Ninth 11-11-03, 11:56 PM	First, it is spelled Mechanus (m-e-c-h-a-n-u-s) [assume that this was said in a nonoffensive tone]. Second, I have never understood how formians could have possibly come from Arcadia, much less Mechanus. There is no way their any closer to LG than the Modrons {tangential, I know}. Thirdly, you want Modron stats, we got your Modron stats. MotP WE: Modrons! (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/we/we20010921a) :cool:
JustKim 11-11-03, 11:58 PM	Where do you get this info from? It's completely untrue. For starters, there are ants in the Florida Keys (Cardiocondyla sp.) who can survive 12 hours under salt water. Formica ants that live in bogs can survive for two weeks underwater. They can close their spiracles. If they couldn't, they would dehydrate, and fast. (Hint: you can find ants in a desert.) It's something picked up from assorted sources studying ants in my spare time. I'm not surprised there are exceptions to ants being unable to effectively close their spiracles, but I have a hard time believing it's wholly untrue. If it is, well, paint me misinformed.
Romulus LoneWolf 11-12-03, 12:18 AM	Originally posted by Forgehome Romulus LoneWolf, i like your idea of a mechanical formian. What about the idea that the formians have learnt a method in creating mechanical versions of themselves to assist in battles/work etc?? Sounds like a good idea. The Monster Manual II has Clockwork Horrors, Small Archanidlike constructs organised in a hierarchical collective which seem like they would fit rather well with the Formians, provided you switch their alignment from Lawful Evil to Lawful Neutral and shift their focus from Von Neumann-style self-perpetuation to swarming combat. Another option for mechanical Formians would be either the Metal Half-Golem template, or the Gear Focus Prestige Race from Dragon #304, which turns creatures into construct-like beings while granting them different benefits. Otherwise, you'd need a Construct Template that allows you to make Construct duplicates of living creatures... Which would be in Creature Compendium I, I believe.
Shemeska the Marauder 11-12-03, 12:19 AM	The Formians took a turn for the darker in 3e in many ways. As for Formian cities, they had most of them underground in Arcadia, with a mix of biologically and magically crafted stone architecture that was said to rival most aboveground buildings on any given prime world. Most people didn't actually go into the hives though, and interacted with the Formians on the surface. Trading with them, hiring out Formian workers etc. In fact there was a Formian sculptor in Sigil who had managed to make a bit of a name for himself. The one key difference between Formians and Modrons I think, besides the alignment issue was that Modrons existed largely without a concept of 'I' but only with we. They could be detailed as a collective with one mind and one voice. Pure law, pure logic, no room for chaos, no room for dissent or questions, all equal within a given rank, and all with one voice. The Formians however are a collective of individuals. Each with their own mind, but working in harmony with their other hivemates. They don't all have the same will and the same voice, nor do they rise from the same energy pool (as the Modron do). Its that aspect of harmony among individuals that gave Formians the LN w/ tinges of G aspect in 2e. 3e has tried to apply the same alignment to them, but make them warlike, aggressive, and expansionist. I don't much care for that take, but I can work with it.
Oakspar77777 11-12-03, 12:30 AM	Well, the Roman encampment was a square affair with gates at the four sides guarded by regualr towers. The walls were earthen, backed by wood, and the towers were wooden. The process of building the wall also succeeded in digging a moat. The tents inside were arranged with the general with the higher ranking officers closer to the center. A Formian city would most likely keep that military order. A central palace for the queen (even if she is not here, it would serve as a centre of their devotion to her). It would be surrouded by the abodes of the Myrmarchs, then Taskmasters, Warriors, and finnaly Workers (with similar areas seperate for those other Formian subtypes). I would go with a circular wall, however, as will make sense in a moment. The earthen walls would likely soon likely be replaced by stone, brick, or even metal. They would likely favor "sandwitch" walls of earth held by stone and then sheathed in iron, since they would be resistant to both conventional and magical attack. The walls would be patroled at all times by warriors, and there would be air born patrols as well, either of those flying Formians or an allience with the Abeils (Bee People from the MM2). I would portrait the actual buildings as cone shaped, made from clay placed over both sides of a wooden frame, then fired inside and out to create "Clay Tepees" with a center hole to release smoke from the center fire. Only as the city grows in population do they begin to burrow. Since every city has the same wall dimensions, the only directions to go are up and down. Thus, individual tepees would combine into larger communal tepees, and eventually, the eitire city would look like a giant cone. Meanwhile, there would be an ever increaseing subterrian growth of the city in tunnels and warrens.
Arilou_skiff 11-12-03, 05:25 AM	(Having just re-read the Modron March Adventure I've just got to reaffirm my love for the Clockwork Creatures!) Modrons are nasty buggers, not only are their higher-rankers quite powerful, they also respawn when dying, so eradication is not an option. Modrons are easily surprised, but surprise only works once, they're somewhat like the Borg in that respect, they adapt quickly and lethally.
Simonj 11-12-03, 06:13 AM	Near as I can tell, the Formians main advantage over the Modron is that they have the whole being an expansionist, warlike culture not totally bound into the hard and unyielding dictums of a particular reading of absolute order. Thus, they're better at the whole war thing, being both more used to war than modrons as per the web supplement and being better able to adapt. Of course, they only really have two options to destroy the Modrons. One is to kill every single monodron at once, thus preventing new ones from splitting off and enabling them to work on the attrition of the higher ranks. Which is almost totally unviable but still an option. The other is to destroy the energy pool from which they all spawn. Which is a possibility, given that Primus is these days probably 'only' a nigh invincible CR 32 monster rather than a greater god. It's difficult. But it could be done.
Arilou_skiff 11-12-03, 07:08 AM	They don't "split" they just... appear. Also, killing Primus is useless, since he TOO respawns. (taking over the Infinity Web is even worse... Orcus almost became a modron :D) Modrons are quite lethal in war, not on par with the Baatezu of course but still nothing to sneeze at. Their greatest weakness is that they tend to be surprised. On the other hand they're only surprised once, and formians suffer from some of the same problems.
Arhra 11-12-03, 07:18 AM	Just back to the Formain primary cog vs Regulus thing. My understanding of it has been that Regulus regulates Mechanus and the formian cog *may* impart motion to the rest of the plane, which seems quite unlikely. Basically Regulus is like the little thing in a clockwork watch that stops it from ticking too fast or too slow. Effectively the Modrons control Mechanus from Regulus. I've heard darker theories too that they control the whole shape of the planes and the Modron March is simply to check everything is running properly. I think the formians would have difficulty beating the Modrons if every time the formians gather a force they get hit by wave after wave of 'natural' disasters. Of course that might be why the modrons don't seem to mind the formians, they know they've got the most important part and if the formians don't interfere with the modrons then they don't care.
Amaranthine 11-12-03, 10:26 AM	A central palace for the queen (even if she is not here, it would serve as a centre of their devotion to her). There will almost definately be a queen with the army. While the queen could technically be anywhere within 50 miles of the army, there would be few places safer than at the center of the army. Even if a formian city is within that 50 miles, a secondary queen is likely to have been carried by the army anyway. Just because a 17th level sorcerer would be so extremely useful in taking out a city.
Shemeska the Marauder 11-12-03, 11:00 AM	I'd need to check on this, but I thought that while Regulus did in fact regulate the motion and movements of the other cogs of Mechanus, the central cog of Regulus was also the largest cog in the entire plane. Paraphrasing from 'Planes of Law' : Regulus isn't just a city of Modron on a large cog in Mechanus. The 'city' utterly occupies both top and bottom of 64 entire cogs. The cogs themselves are stacked and oriented much like a giant pyramid, with a single shaft running up its interior length thats said to be the size of the Infinate Spire in the Outlands. Gargantuan is the best way to describe Regulus. And remember, while it occupies 64 cogs, in no way are the Modrons restricted to just the cogs of Regulus. They're omnipresent in Mechanus, even within the domains of the deities unless explicitely barred by them. None have bothered to do so and simply allow the Modrons to go upon their ordered, unintrusive tasks, convinced the Modrons know perfectly well what they're doing.
Ryltar Swordsong 11-12-03, 07:36 PM	Forgehome, go here (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=292) to learn more about Planescape.
kappa_nova7 11-13-03, 02:46 AM	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder They can be stopped when the Modrons clean them from the face of Mechanus and push them back to their original plane of Arcadia. Since when did formians originate in Arcadia? They came from Mechanus, the center in fact, ruled by the scion queen mother.
Arilou_skiff 11-13-03, 02:53 AM	Originally posted by kappa_nova7 Since when did formians originate in Arcadia? They came from Mechanus, the center in fact, ruled by the scion queen mother. Since time Immmemorial. Formians originated in Arcadia but moved to Mechanus (possibly due to their home-layer shifting?)
Incenjucar 11-13-03, 03:06 AM	...Formians are Arcadian natives. A -group- was shifted, thanks to a Planescape faction, in to Mechanus. Most Formians are still in Arcadia, and probably a tad concerned about the actions of their plane-shifted fellows.
Shemeska the Marauder 11-13-03, 03:18 AM	Originally posted by kappa_nova7 Since when did formians originate in Arcadia? They came from Mechanus, the center in fact, ruled by the scion queen mother. (IC most definately) *twirls fingers through razorvine tiara and grins* "I could reply, but why waste my precious breath when my fellow bloods have answered the question already to my satisfaction?" *Yugolothy grin* (ooc) [And yeah, an entire layer of their home plane of Arcadia sliding to Mechanus is a rather good way to introduce a species to the plane. And judging by their actions therein, the plane appears to have sapped that bit of goodness from them that they had on Arcadia.] [The Planes existed before the 3e Manual of the Planes and had a richer, more in depth history before it covered them as well.]
Incenjucar 11-13-03, 03:27 AM	Personally, I can't wait to see the look on the faces of the high-ups of Ortho, when the Formians drag a huge chunk of mechanus, AND the old layer they held, down in to the hells. (Of course, what scares me, by the statement about Formians only producing a new queen once every hundred or thousand years... how many bloody years are they suggesting they've been in Mechanus now? Gah. There's some people on Hasbro's team that have some serious personal issues with Planescape...)
Simonj 11-13-03, 06:04 AM	Okay. This is the third time I've tried to pose this. Anyway, according to the web supplemenet, Monodrones now reproduce by fusion. So, theoretically, if you killed all the monodrones at once you've got not more modrons. Secondly, likewise according to the web supplement the modrons tend to lose wars on account of being not quite as aggressive and vicious as all planar beasties. Thusly, they aren't going to do that well against the aggressive expansionist Formians. Now, what people seem to be ignoring here is that there's a whole bunch of aggressive LN outsiders on Mechanus in the form of the the Inevitables. Who are nasty and are equipped for all kind of happyfun violence in their duty as cops of the very nature of humanity. So we can perhaps assume there's a inevitable there to deal with major planar disruptions. Of course, theres the possibility they don't care.
Incenjucar 11-13-03, 06:34 AM	Think of it this way: Who would the slaad be most likely to help? Almost every race in the planes would suffer if the Formians gained power. Remember, Modrons leave the multiverse alone, Formians -take over-. You think the fiends will tolerate competition? You think any chaotic force will tolerate the bug-borg? You think the rilmani want Mechanus to be tweaked at the whim of insects with a good tainted history and a steady flow towards evil? You think the gear spirits and moignos would accept insects as their partners? *gets this grand view of the Gear Wars, with a writhing mass of formians on a massive gear ship, while a giant clockwork mecha-battleship controlled by gear spirits, and covered in armies of modrons rises above Regulus, with small gear rafts captained by slaad, githzerai, celestials, fiends, etc, with dragons winging between them.* That would be beautiful.
Arilou_skiff 11-13-03, 07:48 AM	Originally posted by Simonj Okay. This is the third time I've tried to pose this. Anyway, according to the web supplemenet, Monodrones now reproduce by fusion. So, theoretically, if you killed all the monodrones at once you've got not more modrons. Secondly, likewise according to the web supplement the modrons tend to lose wars on account of being not quite as aggressive and vicious as all planar beasties. Thusly, they aren't going to do that well against the aggressive expansionist Formians. Now, what people seem to be ignoring here is that there's a whole bunch of aggressive LN outsiders on Mechanus in the form of the the Inevitables. Who are nasty and are equipped for all kind of happyfun violence in their duty as cops of the very nature of humanity. So we can perhaps assume there's a inevitable there to deal with major planar disruptions. Of course, theres the possibility they don't care. Yes, Modrons tend to loose wars, because they're not very innovative and respond badly to surprised. The longer a war drags on however, the less likely they are to loose, Modrons *learn* they are very adaptable actually, since the enemy has to come up with *new* plans while the modrons (who are quite intelligent in their own fashion) invent countermeasures towards their old ones... Soner or later the enemy is going to run out of plans.
L33t Angel 11-13-03, 10:47 AM	Who are the Slaad most likely to help? Gee lemme ask... .... .... They say they want to help the anchovie men by destorying all of the pink tofu. Thank you and have a nice day.
Dackad 11-13-03, 11:50 AM	Originally posted by Incenjucar Think of it this way: Who would the slaad be most likely to help? Figuring that most Slaad are very independent and that the lower ones are also incredibly stupid, forming anything resembling a warband of Slaad would nigh impossible. So while they may not like the Formians much, getting them to cooperate and do anything is another story. You think the fiends will tolerate competition? They would play both sides, especially the 'loths. They're pretty good at that by now... I could actually see the Devils helping the Formians in such a conflict. Seeing as if the Formians took Mechanus over, it might cause the plane to shift into LE rather than LN. This might give them an edge in the war against the demons. Or it could prove disastrous for the devils... Seeing as they're fiends, I'd expect them to take advantage of such a situation, whether it be for good or ill. *gets this grand view of the Gear Wars, with a writhing mass of formians on a massive gear ship, while a giant clockwork mecha-battleship controlled by gear spirits, and covered in armies of modrons rises above Regulus, with small gear rafts captained by slaad, githzerai, celestials, fiends, etc, with dragons winging between them.* I seriously doubt that. I'd expect the Rilmani, the Inevitables, and perhaps the Celestials to act. But the Fiends will be playing their own games...
Shemeska the Marauder 11-13-03, 01:37 PM	Originally posted by Incenjucar Personally, I can't wait to see the look on the faces of the high-ups of Ortho, when the Formians drag a huge chunk of mechanus, AND the old layer they held, down in to the hells. (Of course, what scares me, by the statement about Formians only producing a new queen once every hundred or thousand years... how many bloody years are they suggesting they've been in Mechanus now? Gah. There's some people on Hasbro's team that have some serious personal issues with Planescape...) Yeah, the hardheads are having a bit of a sobering moment with this all. And the Formians along with one of their layers of arcadia slid over to Mechanus about, oh 10 years ago? Somewhere around that long. The original material on the Formians in the MotP has been seriously backpeddled on in the BoED. Aka the writers of the BoED appear to have taken Planescape into consideration more and returned to what actually happened rather than rewriting planar history in favor of the Formians. Thankfully.
Incenjucar 11-13-03, 04:59 PM	Basically, it comes down to the fair assumption that the Mechanus formians, if they were to go on a takeover spree, would only be aided by beings that had a vendetta against a group that might get taken over by the bugs, beings that have abandoned their own species to live a Formian lifestyle, or those beings that think they can betray or utilize the formians. Any good forces would respect the modrons rights to their home plane, most lawful sorts would respect the status quo, most balance-happy types would similarly try and keep the status quo, and most chaotic types would rather deal with modron marches than formian slave runs.
Simonj 11-13-03, 05:42 PM	What's actually interesting is that you've got three different interpretations of lawful neutral on mechanus. You've got the Formian who are the lawful neutral of we think our sort of order is good for everyone, you've got the laws laws laws lawful neutral of the inevitbles and you've got the beauracatic, clockwork lawful neutral of the modrons. And they're all equally valid interpretations of the epitome of lawful neutrality. So the idea that any one of them embodies lawful neutral in an absolute sense becomes problematic. Though it would be interesting to see what they have of that on the slaadi side. I mean, logically there's a step beyond Grey Slaad that doesn't consist of becoming really, really really interested in killing stuff.
kappa_nova7 11-14-03, 02:28 AM	Originally posted by Incenjucar ...Formians are Arcadian natives. A -group- was shifted, thanks to a Planescape faction, in to Mechanus. Most Formians are still in Arcadia, and probably a tad concerned about the actions of their plane-shifted fellows. But if they originated ther, how come there is only one hive left ruled by clarity & they are non expansionist.
kappa_nova7 11-14-03, 02:29 AM	Originally posted by Incenjucar ...Formians are Arcadian natives. A -group- was shifted, thanks to a Planescape faction, in to Mechanus. Most Formians are still in Arcadia, and probably a tad concerned about the actions of their plane-shifted fellows. But if they originated ther, how come there is only one hive left ruled by clarity & they are non expansionist.
Arilou_skiff 11-14-03, 02:32 AM	Originally posted by kappa_nova7 But if they originated ther, how come there is only one hive left ruled by clarity & they are non expansionist. Because the other hives where located on Neumeausis and thus slid into Mechanus?
Incenjucar 11-14-03, 02:53 AM	Think of the Mechanus formians as drow (culture-wise, not the whole uber powers thing). Sure, they're the evil degenerates, but evil degenerates breed like rabbits. Also, remember, some 3e designer(s) has some deranged love affair with formians (I'm guessing they're a Starship Troopers or Blue Gender fan, since 2e didn't have all the new twisted non-ant-like formians), so things are a little muddled, though getting better now that the company is cleaning up the mess that was made in MotP.
Arilou_skiff 11-14-03, 02:55 AM	Actually formains were always ant-like weren't they? They were called "Centaur Ants" in the Planes of Law supplement as an alternate name...
Simonj 11-14-03, 03:02 AM	Just a thought but why are we thinking of the Formians as the bad guys in all this? After all, their tactic isn't to conquer through genocide or what have you, unless the opponent is something that just can't be dealt with, like Slaadi or Demons.. Rather, they prefer to absorb, to bring the opponent round to their particular method of belief, that being the Formian culture is the best way to live. The modrons, on the other hand, are alien and inhuman beings exhibiting all the worst attributes of lawful neutral and have no more claim to being perfect representations of order than anything else in the plane. Plus, they get useed as comic relief and bad satires on the inherent madness beaucracy. And they look stupid.
Arilou_skiff 11-14-03, 03:22 AM	Because the modrons are (generally speaking) content in leaving others alone?
Shemeska the Marauder 11-14-03, 03:35 AM	Originally posted by Simonj After all, their tactic isn't to conquer through genocide or what have you, unless the opponent is something that just can't be dealt with, like Slaadi or Demons.. Rather, they prefer to absorb, to bring the opponent round to their particular method of belief, that being the Formian culture is the best way to live. Umm... they enslave and magically control their captives. I see we're going now with the DnD equivalent of a Stalin 10 year plan method of absorbing other cultures... The modrons, on the other hand, are alien and inhuman beings exhibiting all the worst attributes of lawful neutral and have no more claim to being perfect representations of order than anything else in the plane. Plus, they get useed as comic relief and bad satires on the inherent madness beaucracy. Their claim to being the perfect representation of law being that they're tied to the plane of Mechanus, rather than being invaders transplanted from another adjacent plane. They're responsible for the upkeep of the plane. Every other planar race in Mechanus acknowledges this including the powers and either works with them in this regard, or allows them to go about their tasks unhindered. The Modrons may be impossible to fully understand, but they don't try to assimilate or compel unless you're doing something to them or the gears of Mechanus. The transplanted Formians on the other hand will just as likely enslave you as they will say hello. Plus, alot of people here are bitter over the underhanded job the MotP tried pull over our eyes to lessen the importance of the Modrons. People reacted, and poorly. It was a major mistake on their part and they likely didn't realize it would be such an issue till people raised heck after the fact. Thats the reason why there was a hastily put together web enhancement to stat the Modrons. And its also to some extent likely a reason why in the BoED they backtrack on, and contradict what the MotP says about the reason for the slide of Arcadia's 3rd layer, and when it happened, and how long the Formians have been in Mechanus. The BoED returns to the events as they actually happened in Planescape.
Incenjucar 11-14-03, 03:35 AM	1) Formians were ONLY ant-like in 2e. They're starting to mutate them like they were beholders or tanar'ri now, which is probably against the original intention of the race (they also didn't have a hive mind, as is specifically noted in the text). In 2e, there are only the Worker, the Warrior, the Myrmarch, and the Queen. 2) Some of the 2e text is as follows, "They've always inhabited Arcadia, and sages say they always will." They're also noted as being much less war-like than Prime Formians. 3) In 2e, Queens had no combat ability beyond their 20 myramarchs. 4) In 2e, myramarchs are basically really buff, smart, and dexteritous oversized warriors. 4) Modrons, 2e, 3e, or otherwise, were a tad comical, but were more or less fair to deal with. You still wanted to avoid them, in case you broke their laws, but they wouldn't conquer a fly. Formians in 3e are basically uncruel slavers. 3e changed EVERYTHING about the once LN(G) race.
Simonj 11-14-03, 03:38 AM	Well, yeah, if you ignore their occasional bout of acting as a walking natural disaster. Don't you have any thought for the pieces of squished baby found between their toes? Nothing brings greater happiness to a Modron that the feel of walking on a baby. It's a well known fact. It's even in Planes of Law. Actually, that's one of my problems with the Modrons. Outside of the whole planescape paradigm, they're really hard to actually do anything with, beyond have them act wierd and lawful. That's the thing I liked about formians and inevivitables. You can use them in the game. Though I did get a nifty one out of a modron serial killer in my old planescape game once. Back to the Formian thing, despite the fact they tend to expand outwards, their desire is to impose order, just a specific sort of order. The same can be said of the inevitables and even the modrons. If that sort of behaviour were going to drag you down to the whole faciast area int the LN(E) area of the planes, the entire joint would have been dragged down a long time ago.
Incenjucar 11-14-03, 03:47 AM	See, that's the trick with 3e, they focus way too much on 'yeah, but can we kill it in a dungeon?', and not nearly enough on atmosphere. There ARE times when you have to deal with modrons (They gather a LOT of information -- you just have to work hard to get it from them; they likely protect some very nasty chaotic artifacts; they can, on occassion, be hired, if their population has need of outside resources; etc) Inevitables are just sentient, lawful golems. They aren't a race. Real formorians, the ones in 2e, based on the desires of their actual invisioners, fit about the same roles, but on Arcadia. They also didn't have these creepy mutant versions like observers and armadons, nor did they have all these enslaving powers. Remember, the higher modrons are -very- intelligent beings, despite their limitations. Underestimating them is like underestimating a far realms creature.
Simonj 11-14-03, 03:54 AM	They can enslave you with freaky mindpowers but it seems they tend to use it on low intelligence monsters, or at least I think it says something to that effect in the monster manual. What they prefer to do is bribe or convince or whatever. After all, if they feel their way of doing things is best, if you're around them long enough of your own free will, you'll see this is how things should be. If you're mind controlled or enslaved, all you'll think about doing is escaping. Which leads to the somewhat nifty idea of blandly pleasent Formian recruits wandering from city to city with pamphlets. KInd of like mormons. Only with giant ants.
Arilou_skiff 11-14-03, 03:55 AM	Originally posted by Simonj Well, yeah, if you ignore their occasional bout of acting as a walking natural disaster. Don't you have any thought for the pieces of squished baby found between their toes? Nothing brings greater happiness to a Modron that the feel of walking on a baby. It's a well known fact. It's even in Planes of Law. Actually, that's one of my problems with the Modrons. Outside of the whole planescape paradigm, they're really hard to actually do anything with, beyond have them act wierd and lawful. That's the thing I liked about formians and inevivitables. You can use them in the game. Though I did get a nifty one out of a modron serial killer in my old planescape game once. Back to the Formian thing, despite the fact they tend to expand outwards, their desire is to impose order, just a specific sort of order. The same can be said of the inevitables and even the modrons. If that sort of behaviour were going to drag you down to the whole faciast area int the LN(E) area of the planes, the entire joint would have been dragged down a long time ago. Uhm, no. The modrons don't take joy in crushing babies under their feet. As far as people know Modrons don't take joy in *anyithing* (except possibly pride in a job well done) Remember, the higher modrons are -very- intelligent beings, despite their limitations. Underestimating them is like underestimating a far realms creature. Yeah, the higher Modrons are smart as hell. They have their limitations but within them I'd take a Modrons over a Baatezu or Yugoloth anyday.
Simonj 11-14-03, 04:16 AM	My point about the modrons is that they were a very difficult creature to use outside of planescape. I liked them there, but you couldn't really use them outside of there, especially given the way in which they were so utterly tied to the setting, almost like a mascot for it, something that kind of shows in the planescape folks attachment to them. It made them difficult to place outside the setting. And by what token aren't the Inevitables a race? I mean, they have the construct t ype but so do those rock guys from Archeon . They're intelligent creatures that have been 'born' from the substance of the plane, albeit with some assembly to ensure that the idea of law is maintained. If that disqualifies them from being a race, then by that token so are half the creatures in the outer planes.
Incenjucar 11-14-03, 04:22 AM	Uhm, maybe because the inevitables are CREATED by DEITIES to do TASKS? They're basically wind up toys that are made and sent off in one direction, then forgotten. And what's wrong with modrons being tied to the place they live? So they're not great summoning stock (which is debatable), big whup. Again, not everything is for your dungeon. You don't hurl desert raiders in to the frozen north. And besides, if you can't figure out a good reason for them to be outside of their home and in your adventure, GASP, they probably shouldn't be in your adventure. The few times they SHOULD be outside of their home, I hope you have a good reason for it.
Simonj 11-14-03, 05:05 AM	Originally posted by Incenjucar Uhm, maybe because the inevitables are CREATED by DEITIES to do TASKS? They're basically wind up toys that are made and sent off in one direction, then forgotten. Except that they have become, with MoTP, the prevalent species within Mechanus, with the possible exception of the Axiomatics. Which I actually didn't realise until I just checked on it. I thought it was mostly Formians, Modrons and Axiomatics. But anyway, now they exist as creatures independent of deities and are solely there to enforce the natural laws of the universe. And what's wrong with modrons being tied to the place they live? Nothing. I've got no problem with that. So they're not great summoning stock (which is debatable), big whup. You're right. It is debatable. Modrons make pretty damn good summoning stock. Again, not everything is for your dungeon. You don't hurl desert raiders in to the frozen north. No, no it isn't and No, you can't. For one thing, their flowing bedouin robes would all but invite frostbite. Their camels would die. It would be depressing for all concerned. And besides, if you can't figure out a good reason for them to be outside of their home and in your adventure, GASP, they probably shouldn't be in your adventure. See, my problem is that they were the majority species on a plane, the sort of epitome species and they became, outside of planescape, a sort of special treat creature. Something you have to focus an adventure around. Which is fine and dandy. Except sometimes, you need a lawful neutral planar creature and Modrons weren't really thematically appropriate. They don't, by their wierd natures, lend themselves to anything but a focus. Of course, the same issues can be raised with the inevitables. But the main advantage of them is they don't have quite the same level of baggage, they aren't those wacky dice creatures or those planescape beasties. They have a greater sense of utility. Which, again is also the primary advantage to the Formians. The few times they SHOULD be outside of their home, I hope you have a good reason for it. And again, no. Which leads to part of the problem, as I stated above. Honestly, sometimes you do just need a LN outsider antagonist and the whole concept of modrons problematic. Hence, Formians help this
Incenjucar 11-14-03, 05:23 AM	1) Modrons are NOT the majority on the plane. It's an infinite plane, and they are a permanently finite race. They are merely integral and talked about. 2) Yes, they do need to give Mechanus (and all the planes) more races; Formians, however, already had their own set up, and the way they're being use in 3e is LN(E), rather than LN(G), which is what they were designed as. 3) Inevitables are sentient golems. They always have a distinct purpose. Modrons, at least, can be merely gathering information or trying to understand the rest of the multiverse (The chances of finding a bunch of modrons trying to get drunk or learn to play the flute are much greater than finding an inevitable doing the same). They're a people, however bizzarre. 4) If you've ever played Planescape: Torment, you'd be aware how easy it is for Modrons to 'just be there', provided you're talking about a place where it makes sense for them to be. You don't scatter baatezu randomly, either. If you run in to one from something other than a summons, there's probably a very good (er... evil) reason for them to be there. Random outsider encounters are generally rather illogical. You don't find too many randomly wandering Slaad in dungeons, despite their wandering ways, because they're not native to places with dungeons. ANY outsider encounter should have a damned good reason behind it unless it's the result of a summons (which IS a damned good reason).
Simonj 11-14-03, 05:45 AM	While not the majority race, they do create that assumption by gaining a majority of focus in Mechanus at least from a fan rather than WOTC perspective. Which actually brings us back to the original point. People are over-emphasising the role of the Modrons in the whole let's conquer stuff in Mechanus thing. I mean, sooner or later the Formians are going to try to expand onto a factory cog, which should raise some issues somewhere. As you can see, the natures of the creatures have changed throughout the various editions and, as I said, the change in nature of the formians was most likely to give people an LN antagonist that didn't lend itself to comic relief, at least at it's lower CR's. Plus, you know, ant guys. Well, yeah as I stated. But really, your more likely to see a Formian around than either of them. Which is the creatures main advantage gamewise. That and having a host of lawful aligned spell like abilites, which both the Inevitable and Modrons seem to be lacking for some reason.
Incenjucar 11-14-03, 06:28 AM	...There are probably more parai than there are inevitables, unless the LN deities are insane. And Modrons and their cohorts are the only creatures on the plane that really MATTER as far as the real power goes, just like the Yugoloths are more important than the linqua, and the celestials are more important than the quesar. As for modron abilities... you do know that many of them in 3e have mounds of effective spellcasting levels, don't you? (Decatons and above are all cleric spell users, often of greater level ability than their HD, and have you read what the Secundi can do? *shudders*) And, while they don't like it, they aren't above getting outside help, or, for that matter, BUILDING it. Modron golem cavalry, anyone?
Simonj 11-14-03, 06:49 AM	Well, again going by the MoTP here, rather than planescape but they state that the inevitables are the most common beasties there. Which is possibly because everytime the elder inevitables spot a crime with whatever the search the planes for their particular brand of lawbreakers with, they make a new inevitable. Consider how long this has gone on for. They aren't servants of the gods anymore but rather servants of the concept of law itself. Yup. They get real, real powerful at the higher end of things, their CR being kind of low given their power level. I get the feeling if we ever get a lawful alignment book, Primus is going to be the 32 CR beastie in it, with the council of Inevitable elders and the top teirs of modrons making the rest of the big beastie filler. As for being the only creatures that matter as far as real power goes, for the reasons I mentioned above, I kind of have my doubts as to that. It depends how you define real power.
Arilou_skiff 11-14-03, 06:56 AM	Originally posted by Simonj Well, again going by the MoTP here, rather than planescape but they state that the inevitables are the most common beasties there. Which is possibly because everytime the elder inevitables spot a crime with whatever the search the planes for their particular brand of lawbreakers with, they make a new inevitable. Consider how long this has gone on for. They aren't servants of the gods anymore but rather servants of the concept of law itself. Yup. They get real, real powerful at the higher end of things, their CR being kind of low given their power level. I get the feeling if we ever get a lawful alignment book, Primus is going to be the 32 CR beastie in it, with the council of Inevitable elders and the top teirs of modrons making the rest of the big beastie filler. As for being the only creatures that matter as far as real power goes, for the reasons I mentioned above, I kind of have my doubts as to that. It depends how you define real power. Primus is no mere beastie, he is a *god* even the We Enhancement accepts this. He is the One and Prime, Law Incarnate, the Master of Mechanus, and even should you kill him he'll just return!
Simonj 11-14-03, 07:05 AM	You could kill him like a dog in 1st edition and you'll get to do it again in 3rd. Like a dog with hands that teleported you to arcadia and archeon. And has no legs, only a giant, glowing pool. And a host of spell like abilities So not really like a dog. More like a really, really powerful planar entity. Seriously though, past precedent suggest he'll be CR32 and almost invincible to anything outside of the ELH. Which I don't see anything wrong with.
Arilou_skiff 11-14-03, 07:07 AM	Originally posted by Simonj You could kill him like a dog in 1st edition and you'll get to do it again in 3rd. Like a dog with hands that teleported you to arcadia and archeon. And has no legs, only a giant, glowing pool. And a host of spell like abilities So not really like a dog. More like a really, really powerful planar entity. Seriously though, past precedent suggest he'll be CR32 and almost invincible to anything outside of the ELH. Which I don't see anything wrong with. Seriously speaking, until then he's a god, according to the Modron Web Enhancement at any rate.
Incenjucar 11-14-03, 07:11 AM	1) They've backpeddled on information in the MotP for a reason. 2) Why in blazes would an inevitable stay in Mechanus, since that's the least likely place to find someone breaking the rules? 3) They are all designed with a single mission. How often do you think maruts need to be made in Mechanus? (And have you noticed that they're not very useful versus the undead, their logically primary targets?) Inevitables were initially designed as special forces. The marut is sort of a LN solar (Very powerful death dealer). The text in the MotP even hints at the example of its use in Planescape (The plague thing). They're tools, not a race. Frankly, it just smacks at a lack of creativity and the ability to work within the system. (Honestly, is Mechanus really a place to work outside the box in?)
Simonj 11-14-03, 07:25 AM	Also of interest is the fact, near as I can tell, that bar the Marut, they lack the means to leave Mechanus of their own power, which in a game sense is possibly due to the ramifications of having an ability as powerful as plane shift. But still, barring some outside inteference, they are technically stuck there.
Shemeska the Marauder 11-14-03, 08:36 AM	Wow, teach me to go to bed at relatively normal hours of the night. I do so and right afterwards Incenjucar and Arilou go to town on folks. *blink blink* I approve! :D To reiterate, yeah the Inevitables have also been pumped up in 3e as well, they at least have a basis for that from Planescape which I can live with. But there's the issue of not being a true planar race but intelligent constructs given solitary purposes by the deities. I'm still waiting for a 3e conversion of the Parai, man I've had fun with those things. Made my players shiver when they encountered one. Their take on Law would make the newly expansionist Formians be watered down Hitlers to the Parais' Stalins. Well heck the Formians would make Vartus Timlin proud. Makes you wonder what he's been up to, no? *cackle* As another aside here, who do you think the Fraternity of Order is going to side with between the Formians and the Modrons? :mage: They're no slouches, and the Matematicians sect just remerged with them, so they're newly refreshed so to speak. These are the guys who, among other things, may have in one ex factols case struck a personal deal with The Lady of Pain (and oh is that a long debated and very very unresolved case), and in another members case, created The Keepers out of whole cloth so to be, dredged them out of pure probability.
Arilou_skiff 11-14-03, 08:45 AM	Shemeshka: Blame it on the time-difference :D It's quite fascinating on some forums to see arguments raging basically 24/7, as soon as the americans goes to bed the euros take over and vice versa :D But yeah, the Guvners are not to be underestimated!
Incenjucar 11-14-03, 10:28 AM	Time difference nothing, I just have insomnia. Me hunting sleep some nights is like an inevitable trying to find a law-breaking target without finding a portal first. :rolleyes:
Simonj 11-14-03, 10:52 AM	Do they still have portals? Because otherwise, the option is that the inevitable either has to to trek right through mechanus and find a way to enterthe astral and either find a correct entrence in the astral or trek even further to the inner planes, whereupon they must fine a suitable point in the plane of either earth or water where they meet correct prime. By this time, the law breaker has probably died of old age or is at least fairly decrepit. Therefore, we either get terrible engines of destruction viciously beating old men or standing over a grave and complaining about the wasted trip. Of course, Marat's are the only ones who for, by definition, the whole affair of time becomes irrelevant. So, naturally, their the only ones who can plane shift.
Incenjucar 11-14-03, 01:49 PM	Realistically, Inevitables are -forged- on Mechanus, then transplanted elsewhere by deities. They should, however, be used sparingly, much like an aleax. Honestly, you'd think there'd be a nice host of different LN beings that would more fully flesh out Mechanus by now... Perhaps a mechanus version of fey that take care of all the little gears, and look like brownie-sized, one-eyed, near-featureless humanoids that use whistling to communicate. Perhaps some sort of gelatinous slug creature that feeds on the grime that collects on the gears, and can survive a long period of being squished between interlocking gears. Etc etc etc.
(Psi)SeveredHead 11-14-03, 02:33 PM	Originally posted by JustKim It's something picked up from assorted sources studying ants in my spare time. I'm not surprised there are exceptions to ants being unable to effectively close their spiracles, but I have a hard time believing it's wholly untrue. If it is, well, paint me misinformed. Sorry for flying off the handle like that. However, I've also studied ants in my spare time, and worked with entomologists ;) I think the insecticides had some way of messing with their spiracles (not my area of expertise). (The examples I used were extreme, but any ant can survive some time underwater.)
Dackad 11-14-03, 03:28 PM	Originally posted by Incenjucar Real formorians, the ones in 2e, based on the desires of their actual invisioners, fit about the same roles, but on Arcadia. They also didn't have these creepy mutant versions like observers and armadons, nor did they have all these enslaving powers. Now I can understand your dislike of changing canon information, but the whole 'they didn't have creepy mutant version' bugs me for two reasons. 1) The creepy mutant versions aren't even core material, they're in the FF and thus are pretty much optional. 2) Is there no room to add something new to the Formians? I mean, God forbid, it's not originally in Planescape so it doesn't belong. :rolleyes: Originally posted by Incenjucar 2) Yes, they do need to give Mechanus (and all the planes) more races; Formians, however, already had their own set up, and the way they're being use in 3e is LN(E), rather than LN(G), which is what they were designed as. You will note that the Formian hives still on Arcadia take a more LG approach than the Mechanus Formians. Perhaps the transition of the layer of Arcadia to Mechanus changed the Formians somehow, from peaceful worker types to militaristic ants. I mean, these are the planes right, where nobody knows the real truth and those that say they do often know less than half of it.
Incenjucar 11-14-03, 03:49 PM	1) The "Core" argument is a bit pointless -- it's still official material. 2) Is there no room for four-eyed, six-armed elves with blades for fingers? Just because there's ROOM doesn't mean something is needed. If the Formians in Mechanus are STRICTLY NOTED as being different from the Formians of Arcadia, that would make mounds more sense. The change could be what caused the mutations, even, leaving the natural formians to be as they have always been. But as is, that's not in the books. Believe what you will, but I'm not upset about this "Because its Planescape", I'm upset because it's illogical and kills the continuation of flavor. The Arcadian Formians were fine, just as they were. These new... Formions, lets call them, are also cool, but only as similar to formians as drow are to high elves. I have issues with bridge burning.
Shemeska the Marauder 11-14-03, 05:06 PM	Actually I speculated about 2 pages ago on the slide from Arcadia to Mechanus as being responsible for sapping the G out of their alignment, making them their current warped, militant selves on Mechanus. Eh.. *shrugs* That would be a saving grace for them if you said that, but they've yet to do so, so I'll continue to rant ;)
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM 11-14-03, 05:21 PM	Well, you could always iamgine the Wasp Formians as Flying Ants, and the Shock Troopers as rather large army ants with sharper legs...
Dackad 11-14-03, 05:25 PM	Originally posted by Incenjucar 1) The "Core" argument is a bit pointless -- it's still official material. It's optional material. Its only as 'official' as you make it. 2) Is there no room for four-eyed, six-armed elves with blades for fingers? Just because there's ROOM doesn't mean something is needed. No, because there are already too many elven subraces beyond the standard legal limit. So I guess there' no room to expand upon anything, WotC should just regurgitate all the old stuff without injecting anything new into the game. If the Formians in Mechanus are STRICTLY NOTED as being different from the Formians of Arcadia, that would make mounds more sense. The change could be what caused the mutations, even, leaving the natural formians to be as they have always been. But as is, that's not in the books. You have to read into it. Why must it 'spelled out' for you? The formians of Arcadia are noted for not being as expantionist as the Mechanus ones. Whether this is do to fear or something else, the MotP does not state. It's left as 'ambiguous' as possible, which was one of the cool things about MotP and Planescape, you never know what the real truth is. Believe what you will, but I'm not upset about this "Because its Planescape", I'm upset because it's illogical and kills the continuation of flavor. The Arcadian Formians were fine, just as they were. These new... Formions, lets call them, are also cool, but only as similar to formians as drow are to high elves. So the Planes can't evolve? Things can't change? Old truths can't turn out to be false? I thought the planes were 'dynamic?' Besides, D&D canon has never remained 'constant.' Demons became Tanar'ri, Devils became Baatezu, the 9 hells became Baator, Hades became the Grey Waste, Tartaerus became Carceri. Daemons became Yugoloths, Demodands became Gerheleths. Why can't the Mechanus formians become militaristic? Admittedly, the MotP is not free of canonical errors which just seem to be a result of sloppy editing (something that seems all too common these days).
Romulus LoneWolf 11-14-03, 06:26 PM	Originally posted by Dackad You have to read into it. Why must it 'spelled out' for you? The formians of Arcadia are noted for not being as expantionist as the Mechanus ones. Whether this is do to fear or something else, the MotP does not state. It's left as 'ambiguous' as possible, which was one of the cool things about MotP and Planescape, you never know what the real truth is. For all we know, Mechanus WAS the homeplane of the original Formians, who were almost all wiped out except for the ones who took up peaceful residence on Arcadia, "retiring" from the expansionist business, until the whole Menausus incident. The Formians on that layer, finding themselves trapped in the less peaceful realm of Mechanus, had to take up the old militaristic ways again. They then realized that they'd never have peace unless they imposed it on the Multiverse, and decided that while they had no love for the idea of ruling the multiverse, -someone- had to, and they couldn't trust anyone else. That being said, I don't know much about the 2e Formians, but from the sound of it they're rather dull. Who cares about a peaceful race of antfolks who don't mess around in other people's business? 3E Formians are much more interesting. And who says you can't add some 2E flavor to them? Perhaps some of the Formians long for their more peaceful days even as they labor to expand the Formian Regime: Workers, when building or repairing buildings and structures, might make sure the structure has aesthetically appealing features (like mathematicaly precise designs) as well as perform it's function, giving it form as well as function. And the intelligent Mymarchs definetly sound like the kind who'd indulge in philosophical debate and/or litterature, even as they performed their work. As for the alternate Formian sub-types from Fiend Folio, the only problem I have is with their more mutated appearances. Formians should be Ant-Like, even if it's as a somewhat more exotic-looking Ant. The Armadons, rathern then looking like fleas, should look like Large Formian Warriors with oversized claws and mandibles, the Observer like a slender Taskmaster with huge segmented eyes that nearly wrap around the head, and Winged Warriors, like the name indicates, should look like Warriors with Wings. The Armadon wouldn't even have to lose his acid spray, since there are some ant species who can spray formic acid onto their enemies. I wonder if anyone here's ever heard of Bernard Werber, a french author who's works have a tendancy towards philosophical thinking on the nature of humanity. His most famous works is the "Ant trilogy", which gives us a "Ant's Eye View" of the society of the Ants, a civilisation that has co-existed with Humanity for ages, a civilisation of Billions with it's own cities, it's own hierarchy, it's own colonies, it's own language, it's own Industrial Production, it's own slaves, it's own mercenaries, and it's own terribly destructive weapons, as well. I've read the second book in the triology in full, and I intend to read the other two books as well, using the books' concepts as the foundations of my perception of Formians.
Incenjucar 11-14-03, 07:10 PM	1) The MM1 is optional too; its moot. Remember, all of these optional official materials are going to be taken in to account in all future suppliments. THAT is where the problem arrises. As much as I love having to restat everything as I go. 2) Fine. Four-eyed, six-armed kender. 3) What was already there, yeah, they -should- regurgitate on it. Then they can fill in all the billions of blanks, like the kinds of flora and fauna exist in Mechanus aside from the summoning fodder. Think outside of the dungeon. 4) Strictly noted, yeah, they need to be. Or would you care to explain why a peaceful bunch of non-magical ants would suddenly gain so many powers of enslavement? 5) The planes can evolve fine and dandy. An entire race on two seperate planes suddenly gaining new 'sub-races' and a massive dose of magic where there was NONE requires at least a little explanation. 6) Oh yes. Using different names is the same as giving a non-magical race inborn magical powers. Right. --- Yes, 2e Formorians were more or less dull. They were really just a race, not 'monsters'. 3e dungeonized them. I agree that the mutants would be much more reasonable if they actually looked like ants (I suspect the change was because of artistic desire and mini-production, more than any sense of internal consistancy). Personally, I think it would be a very good move to make Mechanan and Arcadian formians statistically different, if only slightly, since there was never any need for mind-controlling magics in Arcadia (though I have no issue with the queen being a sorceror and such -- though I'd love if there was a note on their spellcasting traditions. Ants don't quite scream 'spellcaster' so much as chemical warfarer -- ex abilities can't be negated, at that) Unfortunately, much of this requires much much more depth than 3e designers have deigned to get in to. Bleh.
Romulus LoneWolf 11-14-03, 07:48 PM	Originally posted by Incenjucar Yes, 2e Formorians were more or less dull. They were really just a race, not 'monsters'. 3e dungeonized them. I agree that the mutants would be much more reasonable if they actually looked like ants (I suspect the change was because of artistic desire and mini-production, more than any sense of internal consistancy). Personally, I think it would be a very good move to make Mechanan and Arcadian formians statistically different, if only slightly, since there was never any need for mind-controlling magics in Arcadia (though I have no issue with the queen being a sorceror and such -- though I'd love if there was a note on their spellcasting traditions. Ants don't quite scream 'spellcaster' so much as chemical warfarer -- ex abilities can't be negated, at that) Unfortunately, much of this requires much much more depth than 3e designers have deigned to get in to. Bleh. Like I said, I know nothing about the 2e Formians. 3rd Edition is what made a true D&D player out of me. But from everything I've read of the 3E Formians, they sound a lot like what an actual society of sapient ants would be like: tightly regimented and aggressively expansionistic. Ants are fierce, feared creatures in the insect world, and the same should be true of their Outsider equivalents. I highly recommend finding english translation of Bernard Werber's Ants Trilogy: "The Ants", "Day of the Ants" and "Revolution of the Ants", which paints a vascinating picture of what a civilisation of Ants might be like. The Ant Empire of Bel-O-Kan reads like a Formian Civilisation to this 3E player/DM...
Incenjucar 11-14-03, 07:53 PM	2e Formians were much more peace-oriented (3e ones are like the war-like ones from the primes, for some reason). They would still try to envelop everything, but they would do it in a more diplomatic way. They would be more likely to say "You are one of us now" rather than "You belong to us now", etc. They were quite lovely artists, as well. They weren't designed to be that much like real ants (Ants are, frankly, evil little wenches). Both styles have their place, I just wish they'd make that plain, rather than saying "Oh yeah, and this group that used to be the only group are nice and don't use half of their powers"
Dackad 11-14-03, 08:04 PM	Originally posted by Incenjucar 1) The MM1 is optional too; its moot. Remember, all of these optional official materials are going to be taken in to account in all future suppliments. THAT is where the problem arrises. As much as I love having to restat everything as I go. Optional for you, it is core material, very different than the FF, which is Optional for everyone. 2) Fine. Four-eyed, six-armed kender. Only if you play Dragonlance. 3) What was already there, yeah, they -should- regurgitate on it. Then they can fill in all the billions of blanks, like the kinds of flora and fauna exist in Mechanus aside from the summoning fodder. So, they should ONLY update old stuff and not add anything new into the mix? Geez, I'm glad you aren't the creative director. Think outside of the dungeon. Nice bash. :rolleyes: I guess that disagreeing with you means that I'm a dungeon junkie. Nice. 4) Strictly noted, yeah, they need to be. Or would you care to explain why a peaceful bunch of non-magical ants would suddenly gain so many powers of enslavement? Why not? The ToH showed me that being a slave to Canon material results in boring monsters half the time. Nothing wrong with adding a little spice, plus it fits with the more militaristic view of the Mechanus Formians. 5) The planes can evolve fine and dandy. An entire race on two seperate planes suddenly gaining new 'sub-races' and a massive dose of magic where there was NONE requires at least a little explanation. Very true, a little explanation would have been nice, but since I'm creaive enough to think of a reason of why they are there should the quesion come up, I'm not going to dump a perfectly viable creature just because it wasn't in Planescape. 6) Oh yes. Using different names is the same as giving a non-magical race inborn magical powers. Right. No they aren't. In 2e/PS they're were no demons and devils, no daemons. They were not acknowledged. They suddenly became Tanar'ri and Baatezu. There was no record of Baatezu or Tanar'ri beforehand. The plane names suddenly changed as well. Things changed for no in-game reason. Try to justify it all you want, but it's the same thing. Yes, 2e Formorians were more or less dull. They were really just a race, not 'monsters'. 3e dungeonized them. I agree that the mutants would be much more reasonable if they actually looked like ants (I suspect the change was because of artistic desire and mini-production, more than any sense of internal consistancy). How did they get 'dungeonized?' Do you mean that instead of being 'just another planar race?' They're actually different?! Heresy! Personally, I think it would be a very good move to make Mechanan and Arcadian formians statistically different, if only slightly, since there was never any need for mind-controlling magics in Arcadia (though I have no issue with the queen being a sorceror and such -- though I'd love if there was a note on their spellcasting traditions. Ants don't quite scream 'spellcaster' so much as chemical warfarer -- ex abilities can't be negated, at that) I agree with this, especially since the MotP states that they are different from each other.
Romulus LoneWolf 11-14-03, 08:29 PM	Originally posted by Incenjucar 2e Formians were much more peace-oriented (3e ones are like the war-like ones from the primes, for some reason). They would still try to envelop everything, but they would do it in a more diplomatic way. They would be more likely to say "You are one of us now" rather than "You belong to us now", etc. They were quite lovely artists, as well. They weren't designed to be that much like real ants (Ants are, frankly, evil little wenches). Both styles have their place, I just wish they'd make that plain, rather than saying "Oh yeah, and this group that used to be the only group are nice and don't use half of their powers" It's really more a concept of flavor-text then stats, really. Just because a society is militarily strong doesn't mean they have to give up on ideals of peace and art. Just look at the Elves: All Elves learn how to fight with Longswords and Longbows, yet they love peace and art as well. There's nothing that keeps 3E Formians from preferring peaceful "acquisiton" of territory to violent conquest: The description of the Taskmaster states that they have no love of controlling others but believe it's the most efficient way of getting the local area under Hive control, and that if it can manage to win conscripts over without dominating, they will do so. If you want the Formians to conquer other areas through diplomacy, there's no reason why they wouldn't, since it's more efficient then expending precious resources in violent conflict: In exchange for obediance to Formian Law, access to Formian resources such as Workers to heal and mend, and Mymarchs and Warriors to help defend the new conscripted commoners. And like I said before, there's no reason why Workers couldn't build structures that combine form and function, being primarily useful for the Hive, but with beautiful, yet exotic designs.
Incenjucar 11-14-03, 09:22 PM	Originally posted by Dackad Optional for you, it is core material, very different than the FF, which is Optional for everyone. Right. Because WotC is going to ignore every monster outside of the core rules in all their future works. Only if you play Dragonlance. Kobolds. Whatever. [QUOTE] So, they should ONLY update old stuff and not add anything new into the mix? Geez, I'm glad you aren't the creative director. What part of 'fill in the blanks' don't you understand? Why must you 'upgrade' everything from 2e? Do orcs need to spit fireballs so they can keep an edge now? Nice bash. :rolleyes: I guess that disagreeing with you means that I'm a dungeon junkie. Nice. Yes, if this was the playground, that would be a fair assumption. I was reffering to the tendancy to think about races only as they relate to combat, rather than flavor. Being 'cool encounters' shouldn't be the only thing in a designer's head. Formians were perfectly fine in 2e without magical powers of any sort. They were weaker, sure, but they weren't supposed to keep up with fiends and celestials, they're JUST a race. Why not? The ToH showed me that being a slave to Canon material results in boring monsters half the time. Nothing wrong with adding a little spice, plus it fits with the more militaristic view of the Mechanus Formians. Right. So you wouldn't mind if 4e orcs bled acid because a designer thought they weren't spicy enough? Yes, it fits the MECHANUS formians. Hence why I feel they should be listed as a seperate sub-race. Unlike elves, ant races have a pretty good excuse. Cripes, they even have a breed of ants with box-shaped heads for plugging up holes. Very true, a little explanation would have been nice, but since I'm creaive enough to think of a reason of why they are there should the quesion come up, I'm not going to dump a perfectly viable creature just because it wasn't in Planescape. Isn't this that whole Oberoni fallacy? Of course I can make it up on my own, but why should I have to? The more I have to make up on my own, the less easily I can discuss with others on the boards. No they aren't. In 2e/PS they're were no demons and devils, no daemons. They were not acknowledged. They suddenly became Tanar'ri and Baatezu. There was no record of Baatezu or Tanar'ri beforehand. The plane names suddenly changed as well. Things changed for no in-game reason. Try to justify it all you want, but it's the same thing. I don't have to justify anything. They merely changed the names to a cultural definition. Just because someone calls a white guy a cracker doesn't mean they invented a new race. How did they get 'dungeonized?' Do you mean that instead of being 'just another planar race?' They're actually different?! Heresy! What's wrong with 'just another planar race', especially a fairly unique one? Does everything have to have shiny powers to make it worthwhile? May as well make them half-dragons to further dungeonize the buggers. Not everything has to be fully loaded with bells and whistles. I agree with this, especially since the MotP states that they are different from each other. It would clean things up SO much. Adding is infinitely better than altering in this particular case. In fact, they should just make formians as a race that spans all the lawful planes, with some tweaks for each plane they inhabit.
Shemeska the Marauder 11-14-03, 10:21 PM	Ok, wow I think both of you need to lighten up a tad. Just a bit. That said however... *cough*Incenjucars winning this argument*cough*
Dackad 11-14-03, 11:51 PM	Originally posted by Incenjucar Right. Because WotC is going to ignore every monster outside of the core rules in all their future works. No, but it doesn't mean that all of them are going to get updated, as shown by the host of 1st and 2nd ed monsters that haven't been 'officially' updated yet. Who's to say that some of the 3e stuff will or that it won't get changed somewhere down the line? What part of 'fill in the blanks' don't you understand? The flora and fauna of Mechanus? That'll be an interesting read... Your definition of 'blanks' is most likely very different than my definition of 'blanks.' Why must you 'upgrade' everything from 2e? Do orcs need to spit fireballs so they can keep an edge now? Because not everything in 2e was that great. Orcs existed long before 2e ;) Yes, if this was the playground, that would be a fair assumption. I was reffering to the tendancy to think about races only as they relate to combat, rather than flavor. May as well make them half-dragons to further dungeonize the buggers. Not everything has to be fully loaded with bells and whistles. Flavor can only go so far. For example, the Nagathanacon are the Scourge of [Random Campaign World], utterly evil, utterly powerful, and destructive. None can stand in their way. However, stat-wise, they resemble Humans, just with lower stats. Sure, you could say 'Well, every member of their race is at least 7th level' but that's going beyond the whole flavor part. Flavor can carry a race far, but it can't carry it all the way. At some point, stats need to enter the equation and help define it. Being 'cool encounters' shouldn't be the only thing in a designer's head. Formians were perfectly fine in 2e without magical powers of any sort. They were weaker, sure, but they weren't supposed to keep up with fiends and celestials, they're JUST a race. I guess this just goes back to the whole separate stat-blocks issue... Right. So you wouldn't mind if 4e orcs bled acid because a designer thought they weren't spicy enough? Depends upon the explanation given. ;) Yes, it fits the MECHANUS formians. Hence why I feel they should be listed as a seperate sub-race. Unlike elves, ant races have a pretty good excuse. Cripes, they even have a breed of ants with box-shaped heads for plugging up holes. And I'm agreeing with you here, they're two entriely different breeds of Formians with different mindsets. Assuming they both have the same powers is... dumb? Isn't this that whole Oberoni fallacy? Not technically. Of course I can make it up on my own, but why should I have to The more I have to make up on my own, the less easily I can discuss with others on the boards. And while I agree that a nice explanation wasn't given, I'm not going to toss them out because of that. Monster stats are hard to do, and an explanation is much, much easier. I don't have to justify anything. They merely changed the names to a cultural definition. Just because someone calls a white guy a cracker doesn't mean they invented a new race. However, where was the cultural definition before 2e? Why did the Daemons suddenly drop their old name and start going by Yugoloths? I could see plane names changing, but whole names of races? They went by the names of Demons, Devils, and Daemons since near the creation of the planes and suddenly someone comes in and suddenly changes everything. "Oh, they were never demons, they're Tanar'ri." What's wrong with 'just another planar race', especially a fairly unique one? Does everything have to have shiny powers to make it worthwhile? The same thing that's wrong with all the damn Elven races, there gets to be a point where enough is enough, EVEN when they all have different powerz. It would clean things up SO much. Adding is infinitely better than altering in this particular case. In fact, they should just make formians as a race that spans all the lawful planes, with some tweaks for each plane they inhabit. It would be nice, but I don't see it happening unfortunately.
Primus, the One and Prime 11-14-03, 11:57 PM	ARGH! You two are bickerign over the same things over and over again! POINT! The Formians of Arcadia and Mechanus are different. POINT! The Formians have been changed in their roles. POINT! Neither of you is effectively doing anything but repeating what has already been said. Incen. believes that the Formians have undergone a general unexplained "powering". Dackad believes that this change was warranted. He says that the Formians were not an interesting race before. You're locked in a perpetual loop you two. STOP!!
Dackad 11-15-03, 12:01 AM	Originally posted by Primus, the One and Prime ARGH! You two are bickerign over the same things over and over again! POINT! The Formians of Arcadia and Mechanus are different. POINT! The Formians have been changed in their roles. POINT! Neither of you is effectively doing anything but repeating what has already been said. Incen. believes that the Formians have undergone a general unexplained "powering". Dackad believes that this change was warranted. He says that the Formians were not an interesting race before. You're locked in a perpetual loop you two. STOP!! This is why I really like Primus. :D *worships Primus*
Romulus LoneWolf 11-15-03, 12:12 AM	Originally posted by Primus, the One and Prime You're locked in a perpetual loop you two. STOP!! Can't argue with that. I've already made my peace concerning the whole debate anyway.
Primus, the One and Prime 11-15-03, 12:12 AM	Lol, thank you. "You're worship is unnecessary to my existence and you may keep your beliefs. I was merely attemtping to end a recursive loop. You're argument was counterproductive to the goals of this discussion. Remember, this is a thread to talk about Formians, their invasionary tactics, and their most likely targets. I also see the Formians attempting to expand over the vast infinitude that is Mechanus, and while contingency plans for such an incursion have been discussed, we have more subtle ways of dealing with the Formians. Oddly they are Lawful but individualistic. It is believed that this will be the Formian's undoing. The chaos that is inherent in the Formian heirerchy may very well cause them to degenerate. It has been thought that an alliance with the Formians to keep their individualism from degenerating into Chaos would keep from tainting the cogs. The existence of seperate Formians and Modrons is only truly important if Law is mantained. If the Formians degenerate into Chaos then they will taint Mechanus and possibly cause another slide. A few of our ranks have been sent to parley with the Formians though they have not returned. I've discovered that they have been captured by the Formians and have been unable to complete their tasks. Soon I will terminate them, and put into motion a new plan."
Romulus LoneWolf 11-15-03, 12:30 AM	Back on the topic, like Primus suggested: Why are we assuming that Formians will go to war with the Modrons? The Modrons are isolationists, not expansionists. "The Modrons control sixty-four cogs, and this number never varies," after all. Thus, they're not in competition with the Formians. For all the Modrons care, the Formians could take over all of Mechanus, as long as Regulus remains under their control. It's just as likely that the Formians and the Modrons might hammer out a non-aggression pact, whereas the Formians respect the territorial boundries of Regulus, allowing the Modrons to tend to their own affairs and not enter into conflict with the Formians themselves. And should any Chaotic presences disrupt each side's affairs in Mechanus (Such as Slaadi incursions or pesky Adventurers), then they could join forces in dealing with those disruptions. Hey, both groups are Lawful Neutral, after all. A diplomatic solution is highly probable, isn't it?
Incenjucar 11-15-03, 12:39 AM	My use of blanks was "Roles that have not been noted as filled". Rather than, say, shells without bullets. The Formian defintion was altered in 3e, this is where my issue is. I have no problem with the 3e Mechanus formians, but I feel the originals should closely resemble their version in 2e. They weren't designed to be powerful. I feel the change is akin to turning goblins in to hobgoblins because goblins weren't dangerous enough on their own, when you could just ADD hobgoblins to the same world that has normal goblins. And yes, we've already seen them change a number of creatures just between 3.0 and 3.5 (mostly making them tougher. Whee). And the formians already had stats. They didn't NEED magic on top of it in Arcadia. How a bunch of Formians traversing the planes caused the ones in Arcadia to mutate in an identicle fashion... *shrugs* Hopefully someone will notice how odd this is and keep up the clean up job that's been going on with the aftermath of the MotP. As for the naming thing, as I'm sure Shemmy can be quite verbose about, as far as the game itself is concerned that was just a matter of enough casters getting yelled at by the fiends they summoned (It's Yugoloth, Yu-Go-Loth! Get it straight you sniveling mortal! Call me a Daemon again and I'll hand you to the hags!"), or otherwise being more aware of the planes over time. Out of game, you know darned well; thing is, it has no massive game effect, unlike "And now most formians have spell resistance, which only the queen used to have, every formian has energy resistances and immunities, most formians have magical powers, where none did in the past, the queen is now a serious threat, where she used to be little more than an egg factory, and now the queen gives birth to fleas that resemble the termites of AntZ") The telepathic stuff I can understand, it was implied but not properly written in the original material.. but changing them from a warrior tribe race in to a magic-hurling, mind-dominating/reading race all the sudden... from what I've seen, the prime material ones are supposed to be a nice retreat from the orcs and such; now they're like weak baatezu. In 3e, everything changed about them except "Most of them resemble tauric ants" -- the 'most' part is, of course, a new edition itself. The Mechanus Formian is about as much a Formian as an Ogre Mage is an Ogre.
Incenjucar 11-15-03, 12:42 AM	Back on topic, heh: Formian tactics depend on the size of their force, the composition of their force, and the nature of the foe. Anyone care to posit an enemy force, and the variety of the formians, so we can try for specific tactics?
Dackad 11-15-03, 02:02 AM	Originally posted by Incenjucar And yes, we've already seen them change a number of creatures just between 3.0 and 3.5 (mostly making them tougher. Whee). Cause and effect. PC's get tougher, monsters get tougher. Back in the day Lolth only had 66 HP, now look at her. As for the naming thing, as I'm sure Shemmy can be quite verbose about, as far as the game itself is concerned that was just a matter of enough casters getting yelled at by the fiends they summoned (It's Yugoloth, Yu-Go-Loth! Get it straight you sniveling mortal! Call me a Daemon again and I'll hand you to the hags!"), or otherwise being more aware of the planes over time. Nope, doesn't count, because the 'loths were Daemons before 2e, then suddenly *poof* they became 'loths. Out of game, you know darned well; thing is, it has no massive game effect, unlike "And now most formians have spell resistance, which only the queen used to have, every formian has energy resistances and immunities, most formians have magical powers, where none did in the past, the queen is now a serious threat, where she used to be little more than an egg factory, and now the queen gives birth to fleas that resemble the termites of AntZ") I'd argue that those aren't big things at all. Both changing the names of planes and fiends and changing the formians are both messing with continuity, which you were arguing. They're the same thing, neither of them is a MASSIVE change, but they're both continuity changes, which you were specifically complaining about. But... back on topic I suppose...;) Personally, I'd see the Mechanus Formians pulling a couple of cogs into Acheron before they attack the Modrons, as Acheron fits the militaristic Formians more than Mechanus. But if it does come to blows, there might be a bunch of empty hives on Mechanus. ;)
Incenjucar 11-15-03, 02:31 PM	...Somehow I fail to see how "And now, I have magical powers!" equates directly with "From now on... Call me Betty" And fine, PCs get stronger, just up the creatures in the area they actually work in. Make them -stronger-, not throw in "And now they're magically delicious too!" Give them stronger poison or something. I know, let's make the terrasque a 20th level sorceror, rather than beefing their physical abilities up! It's not like we're going to call it a terasque or anything. And I assure you "We can take over your mind" is a bigger change than "Call me Betty". And it's not a bloody continuity change to call them Betty. It's a name change, nothing else. If the government declares that nobody shall be reffered to as "White", but, instead, as "Anglo-Saxon", and that all the history shall be rewritten in that stead -- NO HISTORICAL EVENTS WILL CHANGE --, merely how we refer to them. That's like saying translating a document in to another language neccissarily alters it's content. Eye tooth, canine tooth, all the same bloody thing. As for the topic, I agree, heh. The moment they start trying to enslave Mechanus, 'poof' "Where did all these cubes come from...?"
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 11-15-03, 04:24 PM	Originally posted by Incenjucar ...Somehow I fail to see how "And now, I have magical powers!" equates directly with "From now on... Call me Betty" I love Kung Pow.
(Psi)SeveredHead 11-15-03, 11:20 PM	Originally posted by Romulus LoneWolf Back on the topic, like Primus suggested: Why are we assuming that Formians will go to war with the Modrons? The Modrons are isolationists, not expansionists. "The Modrons control sixty-four cogs, and this number never varies," after all. Thus, they're not in competition with the Formians. For all the Modrons care, the Formians could take over all of Mechanus, as long as Regulus remains under their control. It's just as likely that the Formians and the Modrons might hammer out a non-aggression pact, whereas the Formians respect the territorial boundries of Regulus, allowing the Modrons to tend to their own affairs and not enter into conflict with the Formians themselves. And should any Chaotic presences disrupt each side's affairs in Mechanus (Such as Slaadi incursions or pesky Adventurers), then they could join forces in dealing with those disruptions. Hey, both groups are Lawful Neutral, after all. A diplomatic solution is highly probable, isn't it? The formians are expansionist - eventually they will reach the modrons, and fight. The modrons are so inefficient, however, that they will suffer huge early losses. Diplomacy won't work - formians are like Borg in this respect. (Basically, their diplomacy means "we won't kill all of you if you surrender".) Furthermore, can you even use diplomacy with a modron? Which one do you talk to? Now it has to find a direct supervisor - and hopefully not have any conflicting instructions ... nah. WotC has gone out of the way (with their modron article) to ensure that talking to a modron will get you exactly nowhere.
Dackad 11-16-03, 04:49 PM	Originally posted by Incenjucar ...Somehow I fail to see how "And now, I have magical powers!" equates directly with "From now on... Call me Betty" No, actually it's more like "Me? I was never called Joan, I was always called Betty." ;)