Four great wyrms and a player pickle. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Four great wyrms and a player pickle. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
annalivvie
01-31-05, 12:40 AM Four party members kill or rather entrap the red ancient great wyrm in their area, and four remain. Now the other four dragons are hunting the party and ready to come to one another's aid to destroy the enemies that could destroy them all in individual encounters.

Dragons remaining: Blue, Black, Green, and White

Party members: Druid Variant (UA) Level 21 -- Favored Soul 17/Fighter 4 --Barbarian 14/Sorcerer 2/ Dragon Disciple 2/Human Paragon 3 -- Cleric 7/Human Paragon 3/Radiant Servant of Pelor 10

Now, here's the sticky situation, the party takes off to the white dragon's lair. Once there, the dragon spots them and flees, and they go deeper into the lair. The Druid realizes, "Oh, great, the dragon isnt making itself stronger with spells, (which I intend to tell the players at the beginning of next session), the dragon is calling the other ancients to its side. The ancients have dragon orbs with which they can speak to one another at any time.
So there the party is, all sitting ducks. Now they can word of recall out or the cleric can miracle them out... still the dragons will search for them and hunt them together. Here's an idea -- certainty of death, high, but no higher than fighting all of them at once which is what the DM would like to see happen.
What if all the player seperated and each quickly amassed their own army, gained their own magic for protection from breath weapons, and sent one another messages through animal messengers or the like. They plan one date to strike, and all do so simultaneously so each dragon will have to fight his own battle against each PCs army, so they cannot call one another to help. The downside: in this time the dragons could go after each player member individually while unprepared. But really, what are the other options?

So given the idea that each of the four will amass their own army and each go after one dragon... Which player and their army should go for each dragon? Strategy for fighting, strategy for getting things together as one PC and not four? If this is a totally crazy idea, and granted, it's not that keen, what other strategies could be used?
Vanigo
01-31-05, 02:05 AM Hoo, that's a nasty one.

First of all, you may be able to take down the white before the other dragons show up. If you don't think the other dragons can teleport, you should take him out while you've got the chance. Then get the hell out of there; you don't stand a chance against all of them together unless you're abusing shivering touch.

Ideally, at this point you're temporarily safe, but you've got three great wyrm dragons chasing you. Not a good situation, but it's better than having four dragons after you. Everyone needs to be warded against divination magic. You need mind blank, but you don't have it (maybe once a day if the cleric has the protection domain, but that's not enough), so make do with what you can get. Even at that, you're probably going to want to get a pretty hefty distance away to make mundane methods of finding you more difficult. Prepare.
Long term, there are really two ways you can go about this. First, you can go find allies. A couple great wyrm metallic dragons or a handful of younger ones would probably tilt the odds in your favor, as the most obvious candidates. Secondly, take out the dragon orbs so they can't coordinate, then take them down one by one.
If neither of these is possible, you've still got a chance, but things are going to get ugly. You're going to have to break out every nasty spell combo and disgustingly effective trick you can find. Undoubtedly the best weapon in your arsenal will be maximized shivering touch if you've got it. No dragon can take 18 points of dexterity damage (no save) and not be rendered helpless. White dragons are immune to it, though, so watch out if you didn't bring him down already.
Here's another that's just so awesome your DM might not even get angry when you use it. It's suitable for killing any dragon with a cone-shaped breath weapon. First, summon lots of weak creatures - but they need at least 5 HD so they don't run away. Have them all cluster around you. Ideally, you'll want something with a ranged touch attack or something so the dragon cares enough to kill them. Now, if you're a dragon, and you see a giant cluster of really weak but annoying enemies, the obvious solution is to roast them all with one blast of your breath weapon. What you need to do is ready an action to cast a maximized chained vengance halo (using a metamagic rod) on them when he does. They all die, the vengance halos discharge, the dragon takes 1260 damage (reflex half, rolled separately for each halo). He dies.
annalivvie
01-31-05, 03:39 AM It's a very nasty one alright. Granted they did sort of bring it on themselves, since they did take out the worst of them first and make them feel they should unite by trapping the ancient red in under two rounds. *sigh* Just when you think you're really taking care of business.

With luck on their side, they might have time to take out the white dragon before the other three come, but if I know my DM, and I do because he's my fiance, at least one, probably two of the other dragons will come by means of teleport. He's been gunning for the TPK since we hit level 18.

As for shivering touch, I havent seen it, and I dont know what book it is in...or who casts it. The cleric uses the strength domain, not protection. Ouch. The druid has minor resistance to detection, but on one else.

As for allies, the only metallics we have seen are young silver dragons. We have a good reputation with those that ride them, and the army they are connected with, since the white dragon has the silver dragon orb, which controls the great silver. The only way seems to be to steal the orbs. We already have the copper orb from the red we took down, which I should mention the favored soul carries and can use to communicate with the other evil dragons, but in using, finds himself forever an enemy of the copper dragons.
Ogre4Hire
01-31-05, 02:29 PM Shivering Touch is in the Frostburn supplement.
Vanigo
01-31-05, 02:33 PM It's a very nasty one alright. Granted they did sort of bring it on themselves, since they did take out the worst of them first and make them feel they should unite by trapping the ancient red in under two rounds. *sigh* Just when you think you're really taking care of business.

With luck on their side, they might have time to take out the white dragon before the other three come, but if I know my DM, and I do because he's my fiance, at least one, probably two of the other dragons will come by means of teleport. He's been gunning for the TPK since we hit level 18.

As for shivering touch, I havent seen it, and I dont know what book it is in...or who casts it. The cleric uses the strength domain, not protection. Ouch. The druid has minor resistance to detection, but on one else.

As for allies, the only metallics we have seen are young silver dragons. We have a good reputation with those that ride them, and the army they are connected with, since the white dragon has the silver dragon orb, which controls the great silver. The only way seems to be to steal the orbs. We already have the copper orb from the red we took down, which I should mention the favored soul carries and can use to communicate with the other evil dragons, but in using, finds himself forever an enemy of the copper dragons.Shivering touch is a cleric and wizard spell in Frostburn. It's the best dragon-killer ever published.
Hmm. Yeah, your best chance is probably to go on a teleporting theft spree.
Derren S.
01-31-05, 02:58 PM Shivering touch is a cleric and wizard spell in Frostburn. It's the best dragon-killer ever published.

And second most broken spell in 3.5 after Quill Blast.
If you really want to lower yourself to use such spells ok. I consider them nearly as bad as cheating.
Vanigo
01-31-05, 09:14 PM And second most broken spell in 3.5 after Quill Blast.
If you really want to lower yourself to use such spells ok. I consider them nearly as bad as cheating.
Under normal circumstances, maybe, but look at what they're up against! They need every edge they can get.
Aerunation
02-01-05, 11:33 PM I am Anna's DM and I must say that shivering touch sounds most broken and it may not make past my DM screen. I believe it deserves either a higher level or a saving throw.

...now the party brought all this down on them selves. They jump from one big bad evil guys domain to the next.

they've angered a goddess and her extremely powerful son by defeating their army and driving them back into their mazes

they are great enemies with the drow queen and have battled her many times

an extremely powerful elf hunting troll ranger still has a blood oath on Anna's character and they cannot kill him.

The green great wyrm has vowed to eat Anna's character after she gives birth to her 1st born. And he now knows they are coming for his bronze dragon orb

They have killed one of the white's children and invaded his lair.

....and a powerful demon with the possesion ability has been following them, last session he possesed the party barbarian and slaughtered the cleric and almost Anna's character before he finally resisted the demon.

There is alot more to tell, but they keep bouncing from this guy to the next before defeating them.
Obscure One
02-02-05, 12:48 AM I am Anna's DM and I must say that shivering touch sounds most broken and it may not make past my DM screen. I believe it deserves either a higher level or a saving throw.

...now the party brought all this down on them selves. They jump from one big bad evil guys domain to the next.

they've angered a goddess and her extremely powerful son by defeating their army and driving them back into their mazes

they are great enemies with the drow queen and have battled her many times

an extremely powerful elf hunting troll ranger still has a blood oath on Anna's character and they cannot kill him.

The green great wyrm has vowed to eat Anna's character after she gives birth to her 1st born. And he now knows they are coming for his bronze dragon orb

They have killed one of the white's children and invaded his lair.

....and a powerful demon with the possesion ability has been following them, last session he possesed the party barbarian and slaughtered the cleric and almost Anna's character before he finally resisted the demon.

There is alot more to tell, but they keep bouncing from this guy to the next before defeating them.

Firstly directed to annalivvie and her compatriots, I have a few words of wisdom. Dragons, particullary great wyrms are obviously nasty creatures to take on, and four of them no matter how you slice it, is suicidal. Even an army up against a great wyrm can end very poorly for the army (frightful presence DC is a beast on a great wyrm, and that's before even thinking about the capability of its breath weapon). There are several options that would very much be at the disposal of 20th-21st lvl characters other than taking an army against them head on. My honest opinion is to avoid the death machines and go diplomatic, make friends with as many priests, clergy and the like, to attempt to gain some divine backing. Stick with traveling within the greater kingdoms that've been around for awhile and let them do what they do best and defend their land. One thing I've always liked to use on dragons is poison, so if I were in your position I'd get a hold of the best Dex, Con, and Str draining posions money can buy, and lots of them. Spliting up is above all the WORST option, you'll be much safer surronded by the few characters in your party than hundreds of 5th lvl army grunts (a great wyrm could handle them all and take time to pick its teeth with their bones before any real damage is dealt). All in all, run, gain influence with things greater than yourself, stick to fortified areas, and above all stick together.

Secondly, Aerunation, I completely understand where your coming from. I ran a campaign with a bunch of very good players and characters that just did not know how to tell when they were getting themselves in way beyond their means. However there comes a time when any DM must sit down with his campaign and take a long hard look at the inevitability of death for his PCs. This is merely a suggestion, but I as the DM would come up with something to keep in my backpocket. Just some trump card that would be the cure-all to their problems, and if the players stumble upon such an idea by their own means then that'd be the end of it. If not however, it would ultimately walk hand in hand with their doom given the situation. Honestly it's up to you as the DM, but I've always believed in cutting my players slack when they get chin deep in s#!t creek without a shovel.
Aerunation
02-02-05, 01:08 AM yes, I've come to learn that they will surprise me at every turn. I'm not worrying about their survival at this point. They have the means to win and escape any situation. It's just fun putting them through the ringer :)- and they have ways of winning, the party cleric(Dalana) has charmed the great green wyrm(Vyrebramde) about 7 levels ago in their 1st encounter. Not to mention she has harnessed the power of the Soul Phoenix. The Great Copper, Hieromyx'en is still in hiding, maybe the players can summon him for assistance, or will he be angered by the party's dwarf- Kristoff for using the copper dragon orb for himself? The barbarian has the blood of a dragon god in his veins, and the a powerful follower of the god has become lost, the sorceress lady Aedeka.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
annalivvie 01-31-05, 12:40 AM	Four party members kill or rather entrap the red ancient great wyrm in their area, and four remain. Now the other four dragons are hunting the party and ready to come to one another's aid to destroy the enemies that could destroy them all in individual encounters. Dragons remaining: Blue, Black, Green, and White Party members: Druid Variant (UA) Level 21 -- Favored Soul 17/Fighter 4 --Barbarian 14/Sorcerer 2/ Dragon Disciple 2/Human Paragon 3 -- Cleric 7/Human Paragon 3/Radiant Servant of Pelor 10 Now, here's the sticky situation, the party takes off to the white dragon's lair. Once there, the dragon spots them and flees, and they go deeper into the lair. The Druid realizes, "Oh, great, the dragon isnt making itself stronger with spells, (which I intend to tell the players at the beginning of next session), the dragon is calling the other ancients to its side. The ancients have dragon orbs with which they can speak to one another at any time. So there the party is, all sitting ducks. Now they can word of recall out or the cleric can miracle them out... still the dragons will search for them and hunt them together. Here's an idea -- certainty of death, high, but no higher than fighting all of them at once which is what the DM would like to see happen. What if all the player seperated and each quickly amassed their own army, gained their own magic for protection from breath weapons, and sent one another messages through animal messengers or the like. They plan one date to strike, and all do so simultaneously so each dragon will have to fight his own battle against each PCs army, so they cannot call one another to help. The downside: in this time the dragons could go after each player member individually while unprepared. But really, what are the other options? So given the idea that each of the four will amass their own army and each go after one dragon... Which player and their army should go for each dragon? Strategy for fighting, strategy for getting things together as one PC and not four? If this is a totally crazy idea, and granted, it's not that keen, what other strategies could be used?
Vanigo 01-31-05, 02:05 AM	Hoo, that's a nasty one. First of all, you may be able to take down the white before the other dragons show up. If you don't think the other dragons can teleport, you should take him out while you've got the chance. Then get the hell out of there; you don't stand a chance against all of them together unless you're abusing shivering touch. Ideally, at this point you're temporarily safe, but you've got three great wyrm dragons chasing you. Not a good situation, but it's better than having four dragons after you. Everyone needs to be warded against divination magic. You need mind blank, but you don't have it (maybe once a day if the cleric has the protection domain, but that's not enough), so make do with what you can get. Even at that, you're probably going to want to get a pretty hefty distance away to make mundane methods of finding you more difficult. Prepare. Long term, there are really two ways you can go about this. First, you can go find allies. A couple great wyrm metallic dragons or a handful of younger ones would probably tilt the odds in your favor, as the most obvious candidates. Secondly, take out the dragon orbs so they can't coordinate, then take them down one by one. If neither of these is possible, you've still got a chance, but things are going to get ugly. You're going to have to break out every nasty spell combo and disgustingly effective trick you can find. Undoubtedly the best weapon in your arsenal will be maximized shivering touch if you've got it. No dragon can take 18 points of dexterity damage (no save) and not be rendered helpless. White dragons are immune to it, though, so watch out if you didn't bring him down already. Here's another that's just so awesome your DM might not even get angry when you use it. It's suitable for killing any dragon with a cone-shaped breath weapon. First, summon lots of weak creatures - but they need at least 5 HD so they don't run away. Have them all cluster around you. Ideally, you'll want something with a ranged touch attack or something so the dragon cares enough to kill them. Now, if you're a dragon, and you see a giant cluster of really weak but annoying enemies, the obvious solution is to roast them all with one blast of your breath weapon. What you need to do is ready an action to cast a maximized chained vengance halo (using a metamagic rod) on them when he does. They all die, the vengance halos discharge, the dragon takes 1260 damage (reflex half, rolled separately for each halo). He dies.
annalivvie 01-31-05, 03:39 AM	It's a very nasty one alright. Granted they did sort of bring it on themselves, since they did take out the worst of them first and make them feel they should unite by trapping the ancient red in under two rounds. sigh Just when you think you're really taking care of business. With luck on their side, they might have time to take out the white dragon before the other three come, but if I know my DM, and I do because he's my fiance, at least one, probably two of the other dragons will come by means of teleport. He's been gunning for the TPK since we hit level 18. As for shivering touch, I havent seen it, and I dont know what book it is in...or who casts it. The cleric uses the strength domain, not protection. Ouch. The druid has minor resistance to detection, but on one else. As for allies, the only metallics we have seen are young silver dragons. We have a good reputation with those that ride them, and the army they are connected with, since the white dragon has the silver dragon orb, which controls the great silver. The only way seems to be to steal the orbs. We already have the copper orb from the red we took down, which I should mention the favored soul carries and can use to communicate with the other evil dragons, but in using, finds himself forever an enemy of the copper dragons.
Ogre4Hire 01-31-05, 02:29 PM	Shivering Touch is in the Frostburn supplement.
Vanigo 01-31-05, 02:33 PM	It's a very nasty one alright. Granted they did sort of bring it on themselves, since they did take out the worst of them first and make them feel they should unite by trapping the ancient red in under two rounds. sigh Just when you think you're really taking care of business. With luck on their side, they might have time to take out the white dragon before the other three come, but if I know my DM, and I do because he's my fiance, at least one, probably two of the other dragons will come by means of teleport. He's been gunning for the TPK since we hit level 18. As for shivering touch, I havent seen it, and I dont know what book it is in...or who casts it. The cleric uses the strength domain, not protection. Ouch. The druid has minor resistance to detection, but on one else. As for allies, the only metallics we have seen are young silver dragons. We have a good reputation with those that ride them, and the army they are connected with, since the white dragon has the silver dragon orb, which controls the great silver. The only way seems to be to steal the orbs. We already have the copper orb from the red we took down, which I should mention the favored soul carries and can use to communicate with the other evil dragons, but in using, finds himself forever an enemy of the copper dragons.Shivering touch is a cleric and wizard spell in Frostburn. It's the best dragon-killer ever published. Hmm. Yeah, your best chance is probably to go on a teleporting theft spree.
Derren S. 01-31-05, 02:58 PM	Shivering touch is a cleric and wizard spell in Frostburn. It's the best dragon-killer ever published. And second most broken spell in 3.5 after Quill Blast. If you really want to lower yourself to use such spells ok. I consider them nearly as bad as cheating.
Vanigo 01-31-05, 09:14 PM	And second most broken spell in 3.5 after Quill Blast. If you really want to lower yourself to use such spells ok. I consider them nearly as bad as cheating. Under normal circumstances, maybe, but look at what they're up against! They need every edge they can get.
Aerunation 02-01-05, 11:33 PM	I am Anna's DM and I must say that shivering touch sounds most broken and it may not make past my DM screen. I believe it deserves either a higher level or a saving throw. ...now the party brought all this down on them selves. They jump from one big bad evil guys domain to the next. they've angered a goddess and her extremely powerful son by defeating their army and driving them back into their mazes they are great enemies with the drow queen and have battled her many times an extremely powerful elf hunting troll ranger still has a blood oath on Anna's character and they cannot kill him. The green great wyrm has vowed to eat Anna's character after she gives birth to her 1st born. And he now knows they are coming for his bronze dragon orb They have killed one of the white's children and invaded his lair. ....and a powerful demon with the possesion ability has been following them, last session he possesed the party barbarian and slaughtered the cleric and almost Anna's character before he finally resisted the demon. There is alot more to tell, but they keep bouncing from this guy to the next before defeating them.
Obscure One 02-02-05, 12:48 AM	I am Anna's DM and I must say that shivering touch sounds most broken and it may not make past my DM screen. I believe it deserves either a higher level or a saving throw. ...now the party brought all this down on them selves. They jump from one big bad evil guys domain to the next. they've angered a goddess and her extremely powerful son by defeating their army and driving them back into their mazes they are great enemies with the drow queen and have battled her many times an extremely powerful elf hunting troll ranger still has a blood oath on Anna's character and they cannot kill him. The green great wyrm has vowed to eat Anna's character after she gives birth to her 1st born. And he now knows they are coming for his bronze dragon orb They have killed one of the white's children and invaded his lair. ....and a powerful demon with the possesion ability has been following them, last session he possesed the party barbarian and slaughtered the cleric and almost Anna's character before he finally resisted the demon. There is alot more to tell, but they keep bouncing from this guy to the next before defeating them. Firstly directed to annalivvie and her compatriots, I have a few words of wisdom. Dragons, particullary great wyrms are obviously nasty creatures to take on, and four of them no matter how you slice it, is suicidal. Even an army up against a great wyrm can end very poorly for the army (frightful presence DC is a beast on a great wyrm, and that's before even thinking about the capability of its breath weapon). There are several options that would very much be at the disposal of 20th-21st lvl characters other than taking an army against them head on. My honest opinion is to avoid the death machines and go diplomatic, make friends with as many priests, clergy and the like, to attempt to gain some divine backing. Stick with traveling within the greater kingdoms that've been around for awhile and let them do what they do best and defend their land. One thing I've always liked to use on dragons is poison, so if I were in your position I'd get a hold of the best Dex, Con, and Str draining posions money can buy, and lots of them. Spliting up is above all the WORST option, you'll be much safer surronded by the few characters in your party than hundreds of 5th lvl army grunts (a great wyrm could handle them all and take time to pick its teeth with their bones before any real damage is dealt). All in all, run, gain influence with things greater than yourself, stick to fortified areas, and above all stick together. Secondly, Aerunation, I completely understand where your coming from. I ran a campaign with a bunch of very good players and characters that just did not know how to tell when they were getting themselves in way beyond their means. However there comes a time when any DM must sit down with his campaign and take a long hard look at the inevitability of death for his PCs. This is merely a suggestion, but I as the DM would come up with something to keep in my backpocket. Just some trump card that would be the cure-all to their problems, and if the players stumble upon such an idea by their own means then that'd be the end of it. If not however, it would ultimately walk hand in hand with their doom given the situation. Honestly it's up to you as the DM, but I've always believed in cutting my players slack when they get chin deep in s#!t creek without a shovel.
Aerunation 02-02-05, 01:08 AM	yes, I've come to learn that they will surprise me at every turn. I'm not worrying about their survival at this point. They have the means to win and escape any situation. It's just fun putting them through the ringer :)- and they have ways of winning, the party cleric(Dalana) has charmed the great green wyrm(Vyrebramde) about 7 levels ago in their 1st encounter. Not to mention she has harnessed the power of the Soul Phoenix. The Great Copper, Hieromyx'en is still in hiding, maybe the players can summon him for assistance, or will he be angered by the party's dwarf- Kristoff for using the copper dragon orb for himself? The barbarian has the blood of a dragon god in his veins, and the a powerful follower of the god has become lost, the sorceress lady Aedeka.