Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GEEKAZOID 08-16-07, 10:03 PM	Will this be it? Will 4e bring us new OA content?
narukagami 08-16-07, 10:15 PM	I was waiting for this to pop up. There is no telling, we can speculate forever, but it would amount to nothing. Personally, I hope so, and I hope it features Kara-Tur, if anything.
Saurstalk 08-16-07, 11:10 PM	I was waiting for this to pop up. There is no telling, we can speculate forever, but it would amount to nothing. Personally, I hope so, and I hope it features Kara-Tur, if anything. IIRC, Rokugan isn't in the possession of WotC anymore. So, it'd either be Kara-Tur or some generic unestablished setting. (Frankly, I'd rather stick with Kara-Tur than something new.) Of course, I'm going to be quite hesitant to buy ANYTHING, given how much I invested in 3.5e, and how little of that actually was introduced into my game. Core FRCS Psionics Oriental. That's it for me.
Hochiu 08-16-07, 11:37 PM	What purpose does posting this thread serve? None of us here has the slightest inclination. :P Your guess is as good as ours.
Saurstalk 08-16-07, 11:39 PM	What purpose does posting this thread serve? None of us here has the slightest inclination. :P Your guess is as good as ours. Fact is, it's a fruitless endeavor of wishing and hoping WotC is actually listening.
Hochiu 08-16-07, 11:41 PM	Fact is, it's a fruitless endeavor of wishing and hoping WotC is actually listening. You didn't hear my horrendously nasty rant on the Doomsday thread about that very concept to them? I havent gone back there for fear of verbal reprisals!
Saurstalk 08-16-07, 11:45 PM	At the risk of getting OT, I'm going to say Oriental Adventures 4e PLEASE! That said, I wonder how many people are as equally unenthused about WotC's need to generate new revenue by kicking out a new edition that will make the stacks and stacks I purchased previously defunct ... assuming I actually fall to the darkside.
narukagami 08-17-07, 12:17 AM	WotC doesn't realize that RPGs aren't like collectable trading games, their problem is they want D&D players to be like magic or DDM players, and buy booster after booster every time they go to the games store. They don't realize that they can't just release a whole new ruleset every time they come up with a good idea or decide to release crap and think they can fix it later. It may work in magic because a new rules edition there simply means cards work different, in D&D it means buying more books and watching old ones collect dust. They're a card games company, not an RPG company, and I have a feeling (and I do hope I'm wrong) that 4e will reflect that. That said, no one is forcing us to get rid of our old books or buy new ones. So lets keep doing what wev'e been doing until we see something we like to get us to change our ways. I also guarantee we will see 4.5e not two years after 4e. And I hope I'm wrong, honestly, I hope that WotC did, in fact, learn how to act like a damn RPG publisher and extensively tested, revamped, and thought about 4e for a good long time so its not as buggy as 3.x. I honestly hope that they won't release "booster" after "booster" of new rules that conflict with or totally break previous or future rules to come with their poorly thought out and virtually untested ideas. I honestly hope that the "digital initiative" doesn't mean I have to pay a monthly subscription fee to gain access to previously free content/errata (errata which in itself should NOT HAVE TO EXIST IN THE QUANTITIES IT DOES). I also hope that the "digital initiative" doesn't mean that when I buy a book, I'm just buying an ad for the damned website and I have to go online in order to find any of its actual content.
Saurstalk 08-17-07, 12:27 AM	That said, no one is forcing us to get rid of our old books or buy new ones. So lets keep doing what wev'e been doing until we see something we like to get us to change our ways. I also guarantee we will see 4.5e not two years after 4e. Again, at the risk of moving further off topic, SECR was being promoted as the greatest thing since sliced bread ... which was the same thing WotC did with RCR to replace d20 Star Wars. Now, there are oodles of errata coming out and corrections to either misprints or omissions. I want a good quality product that I can hang my hat on for years. I don't want to be compelled to have to buy Buy BUY just to keep playing. But WotC is a business and their business apparently calls for revisions, re-releases, and other gimmicks to stay alive. And when things start to go stale, new editions. How I miss the day when D&D was simply a game.
Thakowsaizmu 08-17-07, 02:07 AM	Seeing as all we got in 3e was pisspoor official support, I doubt that 4e will have any OA support.
Steely_Dan 08-17-07, 03:46 AM	I could see Oriental/Asian Talent trees. Maybe if there is a more generic warrior class, which I believe there will be, there might be such talent trees as Paladin, Ranger, Samurai etc. And I would love for nothing more than to see a return of Kara-Tur.
Ranger REG 08-17-07, 05:01 AM	How I miss the day when D&D was simply a game. That was before real-time internet have become mainstream. :P Gawd, I miss the isolation.
Hochiu 08-17-07, 08:35 AM	I could see Oriental/Asian Talent trees. Maybe if there is a more generic warrior class, which I believe there will be, there might be such talent trees as Paladin, Ranger, Samurai etc. And I would love for nothing more than to see a return of Kara-Tur. Honestly? I would like something other than Kara-Tur. I don't want rehash settings for my books, the fact that they're upgrading Forgotten Realms first is already annoying, instead of Eberron. Say what you want about Eberron (I don't play it), but it was the setting they developed for 3.5, to me, that takes precedent over old dinosaurs like Forgotten Realms. Same thing with Kara-Tur. I don't want a walking zombie of a campaign setting. Either make something new, or just provide a generic rulebook with as little fluff as possible, and a section on making your own Oriental Adventures world using different cultures as models.
Sleepwalker13666 08-17-07, 08:52 AM	If they make a 4th Ed OA I actually hope they drop the Kara Tur Setting, that's more of a forgotten realms book. I would much rather have a generic starting point since I and a lot of people I know would rather make their own settings. But I'm sure 4e will support OA, next to psionics I would say it's one of the most demanded supplements, OA even has it's own forum, so I doubt WotC would leave it behind. That said, I think I'm sticking with 3rd/3.5, I have nearly all the books and feel that my toy isn't broken.
Hochiu 08-17-07, 09:12 AM	But I'm sure 4e will support OA, next to psionics I would say it's one of the most demanded supplements, OA even has it's own forum, so I doubt WotC would leave it behind. I don't think so, in all honesty. I don't think there's a desire in the gaming community for any serious Asian-themed elements. WOTC seems to have an eye for picking up market trends, and the most support OA got in 3e was when the OA-style movies were popular in American culture. How much support has there been from WotC for 3e OA? Oriental Adventures, Legend of the Five Rings novels (Clan Wars and Four Winds), A handful of electronic articles and Dragon 318, which can't even be considered WoTC? 20 people being vocal about OA does not get a book printed - even if we've been overly loud since the book came out. :D
Professorpain 08-17-07, 09:47 AM	WotC doesn't realize that RPGs aren't like collectable trading games, their problem is they want D&D players to be like magic or DDM players, and buy booster after booster every time they go to the games store. They don't realize that they can't just release a whole new ruleset every time they come up with a good idea or decide to release crap and think they can fix it later. It may work in magic because a new rules edition there simply means cards work different, in D&D it means buying more books and watching old ones collect dust. They're a card games company, not an RPG company, and I have a feeling (and I do hope I'm wrong) that 4e will reflect that. That said, no one is forcing us to get rid of our old books or buy new ones. So lets keep doing what wev'e been doing until we see something we like to get us to change our ways. I also guarantee we will see 4.5e not two years after 4e. And I hope I'm wrong, honestly, I hope that WotC did, in fact, learn how to act like a damn RPG publisher and extensively tested, revamped, and thought about 4e for a good long time so its not as buggy as 3.x. I honestly hope that they won't release "booster" after "booster" of new rules that conflict with or totally break previous or future rules to come with their poorly thought out and virtually untested ideas. I honestly hope that the "digital initiative" doesn't mean I have to pay a monthly subscription fee to gain access to previously free content/errata (errata which in itself should NOT HAVE TO EXIST IN THE QUANTITIES IT DOES). I also hope that the "digital initiative" doesn't mean that when I buy a book, I'm just buying an ad for the damned website and I have to go online in order to find any of its actual content. I think you are correct. I just want to add that I am really ticked off because I just bought a new 3.5 hardcover on wednesday. When I came I saw the countdown. Oh, and fight the power: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=907392
RavinRay 08-17-07, 11:04 AM	Well, at the 4e wish list and core rule books threads I asked whether D&D 4.0 should stay close to its Euro-centric roots (even though the non-European couatls, genies, and lammasu are core, and the martial-art monk is a core class), or should embrace psionics, the Orient et al because they also define fantasy RPG legitimately. We'll see what's the reaction to that.
Sleepwalker13666 08-17-07, 12:27 PM	I don't think so, in all honesty. I don't think there's a desire in the gaming community for any serious Asian-themed elements. WOTC seems to have an eye for picking up market trends, and the most support OA got in 3e was when the OA-style movies were popular in American culture. How much support has there been from WotC for 3e OA? Oriental Adventures, Legend of the Five Rings novels (Clan Wars and Four Winds), A handful of electronic articles and Dragon 318, which can't even be considered WoTC? 20 people being vocal about OA does not get a book printed - even if we've been overly loud since the book came out. :D Well, I realize they haven't been churning out books, but they have shown they haven't forgotten, not everyone bought OA so the Wu-Jen and Shugenja would be new classes, to those who bought the complete series, they also made new samurai and ninja (granted not the greatest classes but they are there), there is also a decent chunk of oriental themed prestige classes, tome of battle meshes very well with anime and video game inspired characters, to me it would seem that if they don't go with a whole setting, oriental themed support should still be in the works.
Holy_Beholder 08-17-07, 01:02 PM	Well, at the 4e wish list and core rule books threads I asked whether D&D 4.0 should stay close to its Euro-centric roots (even though the non-European couatls, genies, and lammasu are core, and the martial-art monk is a core class), or should embrace psionics, the Orient et al because they also define fantasy RPG legitimately. We'll see what's the reaction to that. Martial arts aren't just oriental. Granted it is a monk, but still. Martial arts were developed all over the place in case you didn't have a weapon handy(since lets face it, they had a tendency to get confiscated) Also, about non european coatls, genies, and lammasu. Spain was Islam ruled for a while, which explains genies. Besides, they steal from everything, then change it a huge amount(take the Greek myths, the hydra, sphynx, and chimera were unique, and they were badass. They could take the tarrasque any day.)
Hochiu 08-17-07, 02:17 PM	Well, I realize they haven't been churning out books, but they have shown they haven't forgotten, not everyone bought OA so the Wu-Jen and Shugenja would be new classes, to those who bought the complete series, they also made new samurai and ninja (granted not the greatest classes but they are there), there is also a decent chunk of oriental themed prestige classes, tome of battle meshes very well with anime and video game inspired characters, to me it would seem that if they don't go with a whole setting, oriental themed support should still be in the works. Meh. I don't even know why they included the Ninja, Wu Jen and the Shugenja in the Complete series except for class filler. In essence, the Wu Jen and Shugenja had already been updated with 318, so it was redundant, and they brought the ninja over from another Dragon magazine. Its three classes they didn't have to worry about making or doing any hard-core editing to. With their samurai class as an example, I'm glad they didn't opt for rebuilding from the ground up. :D And to me, honestly, I don't want a sprinkling of material scattered over a number of supplimental books to constitute the whole of Oriental Adventures. They did that with psionics in 3.5. XPH, Complete Psionic, then here or there little extra psionic powers or a PrC or two. Obscenely hard to find anything cohesive. Ah well.
Hochiu 08-17-07, 02:25 PM	I think you are correct. I just want to add that I am really ticked off because I just bought a new 3.5 hardcover on wednesday. When I came I saw the countdown. Forgive for the double post but: Note: Bolded entries are non 3.0/3.5, or non-d20 system books. 1. Players Handbook 3.5 2. Dungeon Master's Guide 3.5 3. Monster Manual 3.5 4. Monster Manual II 5. Monster Manual III 6. Fiend Folio 7. Players Handbook II 8. Dungeon Masters Guide II 9. Races of Stone 10. Races of the Wild 11. Races of Destiny 12. Complete Warrior 13. Complete Divine 14. Complete Arcane 15. Complete Adventurer 16. Complete Psionic 17. Complete Champion 18. Heroes of Battle 19. Heroes of Horror 20. Weapons of Legacy 21. Tome of Battle 22. Book of Vile Darkness 23. Book of Exalted Deeds 24. Libris Mortis 25. Unearthed Arcana 26. Planar Handbook 27. Manual of the Planes 28. Deities & Demigods 29. Arms and Equipment Guide 30. Call of Cthulhu d20 31. d20 Modern 32. Oriental Adventures 33. Rokugan d20 34. Secrets of the Shadowlands 35. Secrets of the Crane 36. Secrets of the Crab 37. Secrets of the Scorpion 38. Secrets of the Phoenix 39. Secrets of the Unicorn 40. Secrets of the Dragon 41. Secrets of the Lion 42. Magic of Rokugan 43. Creatures of Rokugan 44. Fortunes and Winds 45. Way of the Samurai 46. Way of the Daimyo 47. Way of the Shugenja 48. Way of the Ninja 49. Bloodspeakers 50. Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 51. Players Guide to Faerun 52. Faiths and Pantheons 53. Races of Faerun 54. Lords of Madness 55. Draconomicon 56. Savage Species 57. Epic Level Handbook 58. Scarred Lands Campagin Setting: Ghelspad 59. Relics and Rituals 60. Relics and Rituals II 61. Creature Collection (Revised) 62. Ultimate Prestige Classes, Vol 2. 63. Players Handbook 3.0 64. Dungeon Master's Guide 3.0 65. Monster Manual 3.0 66. Wheel of Time d20 67. Vampire: the Masquerade 68. Werewolf: the Apocalypse 69. Defenders of the Faith 70. Monster Compendium: Monsters of Faerun 71. Stronghold Builders guidebook 72. Song and Silence 73. Hero Builders Guidebook 74. Masters of the Wild 75. The Quintessental Ranger 76. L5R d10 Roleplaying Game 3rd edition 77. AD&D Oriental Adventures (G.Gygax) And that is the reason I'm not updating to 4e, unless it has damned good material or can be somewhat meshed with 3.5. So I know how you feel.
Sleepwalker13666 08-17-07, 05:04 PM	Meh. I don't even know why they included the Ninja, Wu Jen and the Shugenja in the Complete series except for class filler. In essence, the Wu Jen and Shugenja had already been updated with 318, so it was redundant, and they brought the ninja over from another Dragon magazine. Its three classes they didn't have to worry about making or doing any hard-core editing to. With their samurai class as an example, I'm glad they didn't opt for rebuilding from the ground up. :D And to me, honestly, I don't want a sprinkling of material scattered over a number of supplimental books to constitute the whole of Oriental Adventures. They did that with psionics in 3.5. XPH, Complete Psionic, then here or there little extra psionic powers or a PrC or two. Obscenely hard to find anything cohesive. Ah well. True, if I was going to bother with 4th, I'd rather just have a big book of "OMG they totally ripped off these Anime/Comic/Video Game/Kurosawa Film" myself. But if they at least pepper it in (hopefully every) supplements (for those converting), OA will not be completely lost. Forgive for the double post but: Note: Bolded entries are non 3.0/3.5, or non-d20 system books. 1. Players Handbook 3.5 2. Dungeon Master's Guide 3.5 3. Monster Manual 3.5 4. Monster Manual II 5. Monster Manual III 6. Fiend Folio 7. Players Handbook II 8. Dungeon Masters Guide II 9. Races of Stone 10. Races of the Wild 11. Races of Destiny 12. Complete Warrior 13. Complete Divine 14. Complete Arcane 15. Complete Adventurer 16. Complete Psionic 17. Complete Champion 18. Heroes of Battle 19. Heroes of Horror 20. Weapons of Legacy 21. Tome of Battle 22. Book of Vile Darkness 23. Book of Exalted Deeds 24. Libris Mortis 25. Unearthed Arcana 26. Planar Handbook 27. Manual of the Planes 28. Deities & Demigods 29. Arms and Equipment Guide 30. Call of Cthulhu d20 31. d20 Modern 32. Oriental Adventures 33. Rokugan d20 34. Secrets of the Shadowlands 35. Secrets of the Crane 36. Secrets of the Crab 37. Secrets of the Scorpion 38. Secrets of the Phoenix 39. Secrets of the Unicorn 40. Secrets of the Dragon 41. Secrets of the Lion 42. Magic of Rokugan 43. Creatures of Rokugan 44. Fortunes and Winds 45. Way of the Samurai 46. Way of the Daimyo 47. Way of the Shugenja 48. Way of the Ninja 49. Bloodspeakers 50. Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 51. Players Guide to Faerun 52. Faiths and Pantheons 53. Races of Faerun 54. Lords of Madness 55. Draconomicon 56. Savage Species 57. Epic Level Handbook 58. Scarred Lands Campagin Setting: Ghelspad 59. Relics and Rituals 60. Relics and Rituals II 61. Creature Collection (Revised) 62. Ultimate Prestige Classes, Vol 2. 63. Players Handbook 3.0 64. Dungeon Master's Guide 3.0 65. Monster Manual 3.0 66. Wheel of Time d20 67. Vampire: the Masquerade 68. Werewolf: the Apocalypse 69. Defenders of the Faith 70. Monster Compendium: Monsters of Faerun 71. Stronghold Builders guidebook 72. Song and Silence 73. Hero Builders Guidebook 74. Masters of the Wild 75. The Quintessental Ranger 76. L5R d10 Roleplaying Game 3rd edition 77. AD&D Oriental Adventures (G.Gygax) And that is the reason I'm not updating to 4e, unless it has damned good material or can be somewhat meshed with 3.5. So I know how you feel. Yeah I got about 80 reasons myself to not convert.
Ranger REG 08-18-07, 03:13 AM	Honestly? I would like something other than Kara-Tur. Like Ro ... ku ... gan? :uh-huh: Nope. Not in my D&D. If AEG wants to do Rokugan d20 for 4e, I won't stop them. I just don't want to waste WotC human resource to do a new version of that setting (including editing and layout design). :noway:
Hochiu 08-18-07, 11:15 AM	Like Ro ... ku ... gan? :uh-huh: Nope. Not in my D&D. If AEG wants to do Rokugan d20 for 4e, I won't stop them. I just don't want to waste WotC human resource to do a new version of that setting (including editing and layout design). :noway: My dear sir, did I ever make mention of Rokugan? No. I want something new. I just don't want walking dinosaurs or resurrected zombies wandering around WotC's 4th edition R&D office.
Professorpain 08-19-07, 12:51 PM	Forgive for the double post but: Note: Bolded entries are non 3.0/3.5, or non-d20 system books. 1. Players Handbook 3.5 2. Dungeon Master's Guide 3.5 3. Monster Manual 3.5 4. Monster Manual II 5. Monster Manual III 6. Fiend Folio 7. Players Handbook II 8. Dungeon Masters Guide II 9. Races of Stone 10. Races of the Wild 11. Races of Destiny 12. Complete Warrior 13. Complete Divine 14. Complete Arcane 15. Complete Adventurer 16. Complete Psionic 17. Complete Champion 18. Heroes of Battle 19. Heroes of Horror 20. Weapons of Legacy 21. Tome of Battle 22. Book of Vile Darkness 23. Book of Exalted Deeds 24. Libris Mortis 25. Unearthed Arcana 26. Planar Handbook 27. Manual of the Planes 28. Deities & Demigods 29. Arms and Equipment Guide 30. Call of Cthulhu d20 31. d20 Modern 32. Oriental Adventures 33. Rokugan d20 34. Secrets of the Shadowlands 35. Secrets of the Crane 36. Secrets of the Crab 37. Secrets of the Scorpion 38. Secrets of the Phoenix 39. Secrets of the Unicorn 40. Secrets of the Dragon 41. Secrets of the Lion 42. Magic of Rokugan 43. Creatures of Rokugan 44. Fortunes and Winds 45. Way of the Samurai 46. Way of the Daimyo 47. Way of the Shugenja 48. Way of the Ninja 49. Bloodspeakers 50. Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 51. Players Guide to Faerun 52. Faiths and Pantheons 53. Races of Faerun 54. Lords of Madness 55. Draconomicon 56. Savage Species 57. Epic Level Handbook 58. Scarred Lands Campagin Setting: Ghelspad 59. Relics and Rituals 60. Relics and Rituals II 61. Creature Collection (Revised) 62. Ultimate Prestige Classes, Vol 2. 63. Players Handbook 3.0 64. Dungeon Master's Guide 3.0 65. Monster Manual 3.0 66. Wheel of Time d20 67. Vampire: the Masquerade 68. Werewolf: the Apocalypse 69. Defenders of the Faith 70. Monster Compendium: Monsters of Faerun 71. Stronghold Builders guidebook 72. Song and Silence 73. Hero Builders Guidebook 74. Masters of the Wild 75. The Quintessental Ranger 76. L5R d10 Roleplaying Game 3rd edition 77. AD&D Oriental Adventures (G.Gygax) And that is the reason I'm not updating to 4e, unless it has damned good material or can be somewhat meshed with 3.5. So I know how you feel. I feel your pain.
Saurstalk 08-19-07, 02:45 PM	I feel your pain. Me, too. I curbed my purchasing immensely between 3e and 3.5, particularly with regards to the Complete Class series and the Environment series. I'm really glad I did. But I still have easily two-plus dozen of 3e and 3.5 books, primarily ranging between $29.95 and $39.95, that give me cause for concern about 4e. What I am curious about is the emphasized quote by the English-accented fellow in the 4e Part One teaser, something like, "D&D remains unchanged. D&D remains unchanged." What the heck does this mean?? :confused:
Joni-san 08-19-07, 07:30 PM	English-accented fellow Ö_o' I think that was supposed to be a French or Romanian accent. In any case I think the comment "Ze game remains unchanged" is supposed to tell us that despite the changes that will come, the game will still be the D&D we know and love.
narukagami 08-19-07, 07:36 PM	I wonder what people mean by "It will still be the D&D we all know and love"? If I had all the obligatory d&d non-mechanical aspects in a GURPS game, does that suddenly make it D&D? What about Rifts? Storyteller? Fuzion? Silhouette? Fudge? BRP? CODA? FATE? Hero? Interlock? Tri-Stat? FARPS? d6? What makes D&D, well, D&D? Sitting around a table with other people telling a collective story? All RPGs do that, thats not something unique to D&D. Or is this whole "The game remains unchanged" garbage just some silly rationalization to hide that you can slap the label on any kind of system and expect people to buy it?
The_Shaman 08-19-07, 07:47 PM	BTW, over at the FR boards I heard that Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim (or was it Zakhara? I mix the two tbh) and Maztica will not be getting much attention in the foreseeable future. Unfortunately - I like FR, but it is not limited to a few regions, for crying out loud.
Pagan priest 08-19-07, 11:41 PM	I rather like the Kara Tur setting. Divorce it from Forgotten Realms, as it was in the beginning, Polish it up and revise where needed and you've got a good basis for any sort of orient you could wish for. Samurai versus ninja in a Japanesque area or Mandarines, monks and eunuchs in a China like region, Kara Tur can have these, unlike the monocultural Rokugan.
Hochiu 08-20-07, 01:13 AM	I rather like the Kara Tur setting. Divorce it from Forgotten Realms, as it was in the beginning, Polish it up and revise where needed and you've got a good basis for any sort of orient you could wish for. Samurai versus ninja in a Japanesque area or Mandarines, monks and eunuchs in a China like region, Kara Tur can have these, unlike the monocultural Rokugan. Meh. The Rokugan presented in the OA book is a primer for the d20 version, though you don't see any bit of outside world until the Exotic Arms and Equipment Guide. But I'm honestly not surprised that the old TSR-dinosaurs aren't getting much attention in the future suppliments. It mirrors American culture. No one wants to hear about Asia, Arabia, or Meso-America, so WOTC will not produce dedicated suppliments about them, even if they're in their forgotten realms terms. Also, off topic: Does anyone else feel a complete lack of desire to come and post to these forums because no one seems to be wanting to post in any interesting threads, except for the 4e ones?
narukagami 08-20-07, 01:16 AM	Also, off topic: Does anyone else feel a complete lack of desire to come and post to these forums because no one seems to be wanting to post in any interesting threads, except for the 4e ones? I've been hiding out over on d20 Modern until the 4e flood subsides, come join me folks. :P
Ranger REG 08-20-07, 02:48 AM	My dear sir, did I ever make mention of Rokugan? No. I want something new. I just don't want walking dinosaurs or resurrected zombies wandering around WotC's 4th edition R&D office. Hey! I happened to LIKE the Kara-Tur dinosaurs.
Ranger REG 08-20-07, 02:51 AM	I rather like the Kara Tur setting. Divorce it from Forgotten Realms, as it was in the beginning, Polish it up and revise where needed and you've got a good basis for any sort of orient you could wish for. Samurai versus ninja in a Japanesque area or Mandarines, monks and eunuchs in a China like region, Kara Tur can have these, unlike the monocultural Rokugan. Nah, keep it together. I don't want them to value isolation as much as L5R/Rokugan (I'm pretty sure the 7th Sea Theah setting is not on the same planet as Rokugan).
Guroth the Forsaken 08-20-07, 12:31 PM	They damn well had better do a 4the Oriental Adventures setting. Forget Rokugan, as that's not WotC. I don't care if it's Kara Tur, or another setting altogether! Don't they know their entire marketing and sales strategy should be based entirely on MY wants and needs? :P
hawkinsthedm 08-20-07, 02:49 PM	IIRC, Rokugan isn't in the possession of WotC anymore. So, it'd either be Kara-Tur or some generic unestablished setting. (Frankly, I'd rather stick with Kara-Tur than something new.) Yay! for Kara-Tur. I thought it was stupid that they shafted it for 3.xE.
Ranger REG 08-21-07, 02:29 AM	Don't they know their entire marketing and sales strategy should be based entirely on MY wants and needs? :P Your wants? Your need? BAH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :evillaugh
Hochiu 08-21-07, 10:24 AM	Reg, did you skip your Valium today?
GEEKAZOID 08-21-07, 09:48 PM	But I'm honestly not surprised that the old TSR-dinosaurs aren't getting much attention in the future suppliments. It mirrors American culture. No one wants to hear about Asia, Arabia, or Meso-America, so WOTC will not produce dedicated suppliments about them, even if they're in their forgotten realms terms.Well, the ironic thing about this broad ill informed assumption, those Americans that play this game are the very ones most likely opposite that generalization. I count myself among them.
Ranger REG 08-22-07, 02:31 AM	Reg, did you skip your Valium today? I didn't realize I'm supposed to take any (for recreational purpose). :evillaugh Seriously, they can put out a new edition, but until they reform their marketing strategy with an aggressive approach, it's not going to be any different than when they promoted 3.5e. Marketing aside, there is one tiny glimmer of hope for 4e. Oriental Adventures author James Wyatt is one of the 3-member 4e Design Team.
Dreamstryder 08-22-07, 02:37 AM	I agree with Hochiu and Sleepwalker13666; if OA gets its own book, I want a generic, non-Campaign Setting book. Release a campaign setting separately if you'd like, but the OA book should be an Asian version of the PHB, which was NOT a Greyhawk CS; it may even include notes that were in the DMG about world-building if the DMG is too Eurocentric. Personally, peppering Asian talent trees like ninja, samurai, et al into the PHB and asian monsters into the MM may be the most preferable. Face it: why all the attention to Asian video games, anime, and wuxia in these very forums if d20 players (American ones included) aren't interested in Asia?
narukagami 08-22-07, 02:41 AM	why all the attention to Asian video games, anime, and wuxia in these very forums if d20 players (American ones included) aren't interested in Asia? Because they're not interested in Asia, they're only interested in Asian video games, anime, and wuxia. :P
The_Shaman 08-22-07, 09:21 AM	And this is what they will get with all the talents/ powers/ etc. A large part of the "stat X in D&D terms" threads involve anime characters. Even with ToB and psionics, it isn't an easy task at the moment.
Ranger REG 08-22-07, 11:49 PM	I agree with Hochiu and Sleepwalker13666; if OA gets its own book, I want a generic, non-Campaign Setting book. Release a campaign setting separately if you'd like, but the OA book should be an Asian version of the PHB, which was NOT a Greyhawk CS; it may even include notes that were in the DMG about world-building if the DMG is too Eurocentric. :uh-huh: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Rokugan is NOT part of the Greyhawk setting. You could say it's a "default setting" for the OA book (like GH is a default setting for 3e core rules), but compared to D&D core rulebooks, Rokugan pretty much singled out some classes (e.g., shaman).
Ranger REG 08-22-07, 11:53 PM	Because they're not interested in Asia, they're only interested in Asian video games, anime, and wuxia. :P Well, that's depressing. :(
Saurstalk 08-23-07, 09:36 AM	In the event that 4e incorporates Talent Trees, I wouldn't be surprised to see Samurai, Wu Jen, Ninja, Shugenja, and Sohei Talent Trees. Throw in a few exotic weapons and fluff, and WotC may be confident that it's addressed an Oriental Adventures setting sufficiently.
narukagami 08-23-07, 12:47 PM	Throw in a few exotic weapons This reminds me, I really, really, hope they don't make obviously martial and simple weapons Exotic again just because they're Asian. :nonono:
Sleepwalker13666 08-23-07, 07:44 PM	Also, off topic: Does anyone else feel a complete lack of desire to come and post to these forums because no one seems to be wanting to post in any interesting threads, except for the 4e ones? yeah I even changed my sig, 4th edition is nine months away and almost every seems to think 3rd/3.5 is over now, or that no one will play 3.5 when 4 comes out. My groups already taken a vote on this, unless 4th is really something special 3rd is all we need. I agree with Hochiu and Sleepwalker13666; if OA gets its own book, I want a generic, non-Campaign Setting book. Whoa someone agrees with me,... I'm I'm...scared :hides: This reminds me, I really, really, hope they don't make obviously martial and simple weapons Exotic again just because they're Asian. :nonono: That annoyed me to no end, exotic weapons should mean more than it's different.
Dreamstryder 08-24-07, 01:44 AM	Because they're not interested in Asia, they're only interested in Asian video games, anime, and wuxia. :P We're not interested in Europe, either; just their wizards. ;) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Rokugan is NOT part of the Greyhawk setting. You could say it's a "default setting" for the OA book (like GH is a default setting for 3e core rules), but compared to D&D core rulebooks, Rokugan pretty much singled out some classes (e.g., shaman). Yeah, what I meant was that the PHB didn't have maps and histories of Oerth in the back and suits of arms that read "this class cannot be found in Greyhawk," so OA shouldn't have such for Rokugan or any other CS in it.
Ranger REG 08-24-07, 01:54 AM	Yeah, what I meant was that the PHB didn't have maps and histories of Oerth in the back and suits of arms that read "this class cannot be found in Greyhawk," so OA shouldn't have such for Rokugan or any other CS in it. To be brutally honest, WotC missed the boat on adding a chapter on Greyhawk. But I guess it shows they're less supportive of that setting than ... grr ... Ro ku gan.
lastknightleft 08-24-07, 08:45 AM	Again, at the risk of moving further off topic, SECR was being promoted as the greatest thing since sliced bread ... which was the same thing WotC did with RCR to replace d20 Star Wars. Now, there are oodles of errata coming out and corrections to either misprints or omissions. I want a good quality product that I can hang my hat on for years. I don't want to be compelled to have to buy Buy BUY just to keep playing. But WotC is a business and their business apparently calls for revisions, re-releases, and other gimmicks to stay alive. And when things start to go stale, new editions. How I miss the day when D&D was simply a game. SECR RCR WTF? please remember that shortening non dnd products to acronyms can be confusing to other readers
Alyss 08-24-07, 10:55 AM	Me, too. I curbed my purchasing immensely between 3e and 3.5, particularly with regards to the Complete Class series and the Environment series. I'm really glad I did. But I still have easily two-plus dozen of 3e and 3.5 books, primarily ranging between $29.95 and $39.95, that give me cause for concern about 4e. I have 30 v 3/3.5 d20 books, 27 of which are D&D. Cost me about £600 altogether. But whatcha gonna do? I luuuuuurv new content
Saurstalk 08-24-07, 01:25 PM	SECR RCR WTF? please remember that shortening non dnd products to acronyms can be confusing to other readers Sorry. I assumed that these acronyms would be understood. SECR - Star Wars Saga Edition Core Rulebook. RCR - Star Wars Revised Core Rulebook. Both are d20, but SECR is the 3rd d20 edition for Star Wars, with RCR being the second. WTF - Hmm. Sorry. What's this acronym. It isn't one I'm familiar with. :D
Sleepwalker13666 08-24-07, 03:30 PM	WTF - Hmm. Sorry. What's this acronym. It isn't one I'm familiar with. :D Ooh Ooh I can help you Waffles Totally Fly :D
narukagami 08-24-07, 03:55 PM	Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!
Dreamstryder 08-24-07, 11:37 PM	Wuxias Take Faerun! :smirk:...(The absence of SW in the acronym threw me off.) Oerth had a gazetteer released separately about the time of the PHB 3.0. I realize Greyhawk has quite a following, but I prefer CS & core separate so non-Greyhawkers (like me) won't have to tote unused weight.
Sleepwalker13666 08-25-07, 06:21 AM	Wear Tacos Friday? :D
Cailte 08-26-07, 08:43 AM	But I guess it shows they're less supportive of that setting than ... grr ... Ro ku gan. I find the hostility to Rokugan amusing to say the least. I mean I'm a huge fan of Rokugan, heck I run two support sites for AEG's Legend of the Five Rings games. But my OA games were not based in Rokugan at all but rather in my own homebrew setting that was far more inspired by Cathay: Jewel of the East an OGL product as part of the Swashbuckling Adventures product line. The adventure I wrote for it featured mostly monsters from the Green Ronin book - Jade Dragons & Hungry Ghosts: Monsters from the East. Of course the good news is Rokugan will not be returning as part of a WotC product line for those of you that dislike it. (The better news for those who do like Rokugan is that Emerald Empire will be a great resource even for d20 play.) All of that said I would much rather see OA supported in the PHB and MM than through its own release. I will probably buy 4E (not having aquired 3.5 material of note) and would rather skip an OA book if it comes down to it - despite my love of OA themed content. I'd rather see it in the core books.
Saurstalk 08-26-07, 10:28 AM	Actually, I am a fan of the Rokugan setting and have homebrewed that (along with some modifications) into my Forgotten Realms campaign. It's worked well. But in the end, I agree that a 4e Oriental Adventures need not be based in a campaign setting. We can create our own. Perhaps, a chapter could be drafted that gives the DM tips for creating and running a campaign in a particular setting, but no more. That said, DMG 4e could easily cover such ground. And again, with the possibility of talents, you could build samurai, ninja, and so forth off the PHB base classes. And given that 3.5 DMG had oriental adventures addressed within, I could see our want covered in DMG 4e.
Ranger REG 08-27-07, 02:57 AM	I find the hostility to Rokugan amusing to say the least. I mean I'm a huge fan of Rokugan,... And I'm a fan of Legend of the Five Rings, the other version. :P And it is not so much a hostility but profound disappointment (Eastern-style) on WotC's business decision with regards to the current OA "default setting." AEG could have made their own d20 version without WotC meddling. That would let WotC free to make Kara-Tur. As for seeing it in the core line, must I remind you of the Complete series (mis)treatment of oriental-themed classes? :rolleye2: Profound disappointment. :nonono:
Saurstalk 08-27-07, 08:47 AM	As for seeing it in the core line, must I remind you of the Complete series (mis)treatment of oriental-themed classes? :rolleye2: Profound disappointment. :nonono: Yep. I never used those. I stuck with Rokugan Core Rulebook as my default and Oriental Adventures as back-up. I only referenced what I'd call errata for the Shugenja and Wu Jen. Samurai and Ninja were horrible.
hawkinsthedm 08-27-07, 12:52 PM	Yep. I never used those. I stuck with Rokugan Core Rulebook as my default and Oriental Adventures as back-up. I only referenced what I'd call errata for the Shugenja and Wu Jen. Samurai and Ninja were horrible. Or how they gave the Ronin a dishonorable flavor by giving them sneak attacks?
heretic888 08-27-07, 08:37 PM	Or how they gave the Ronin a dishonorable flavor by giving them sneak attacks? While I agree with the general sentiment about the Complete X "Oriental" classes here, there is nothing intrinsically "dishonorable" about sneak attack.
hawkinsthedm 08-27-07, 09:10 PM	While I agree with the general sentiment about the Complete X "Oriental" classes here, there is nothing intrinsically "dishonorable" about sneak attack. I beg to differ, unless flanking, you must catch your opponent flat-footed (unaware) to perform a successful sneak attack. The rules of honorable combat (in almost any medieval culture) dictates that you do not attack an opponent who is unaware. Look at the Knight class (which is based on medieval rules of honorable combat) in the PHB2 for a good example. Now, if they had wanted the Ronin PrC to get a sneak attack bonus just while flanking, they should have done that and named it something like "flanking attack" (sorry, not feeling all that original in naming this special ability right now).
heretic888 08-27-07, 09:53 PM	The rules of honorable combat (in almost any medieval culture) dictates that you do not attack an opponent who is unaware. Two things. 1) Attacking an opponent who is denied his or her Dexterity bonus to AC does *not* mean he or she is "unaware". It just means he or she is less able to defend themselves at that particular moment --- which, if you haven't realized yet, is the entire *basis* for the Iaijutsu Duel rules that those "honorable" samurai types relish. 2) Your rather gross generalization about "medieval culture" is *highly inaccurate* when it comes to Japan. Even during the Edo Jidai (from which we get such romantic blowhards as Yamamoto Tsunetomo), attacking an "unaware" opponent was not only accepted, it was *expected*. The fact that a samurai allowed himself to be caught with his guard down was seen as proof that he deserved what came to him. Please peruse the links in my signature for more information. :D
Ranger REG 08-28-07, 04:03 AM	Or how they gave the Ronin a dishonorable flavor by giving them sneak attacks? I still don't understand the need to make prestige class for a ronin. That's like making a soldier base class with an ex-soldier PrC. :nonono:
spacer 08-28-07, 03:53 PM	BTW, over at the FR boards I heard that Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim (or was it Zakhara? I mix the two tbh) and Maztica will not be getting much attention in the foreseeable future. Unfortunately - I like FR, but it is not limited to a few regions, for crying out loud. IF YOU REALLY LIKE FORGOTTEN REALMS THEN GO TO THE WIZARD DOWNLOAD ARCHIVE. THERE ARE GREAT ORIGINAL SUPPLEMENTS (MAZTICA, KARA-TUR-DRAGON VS MONKEY I BELIEVE) GRANTED THEY TAKE A LITTLE CONVERSION BUT THEY ARE CHOCK FULL OF GREAT BACKGROUND, VILLANS, PLOTS ETC.. SORRY NO LINKS I'M AT WORK.
Ranger REG 08-29-07, 03:13 AM	IF YOU REALLY LIKE FORGOTTEN REALMS THEN GO TO THE WIZARD DOWNLOAD ARCHIVE. THERE ARE GREAT ORIGINAL SUPPLEMENTS (MAZTICA, KARA-TUR-DRAGON VS MONKEY I BELIEVE) GRANTED THEY TAKE A LITTLE CONVERSION BUT THEY ARE CHOCK FULL OF GREAT BACKGROUND, VILLANS, PLOTS ETC.. SORRY NO LINKS I'M AT WORK. Can you not yell in CAPS? :ahem:
Hanzo187 08-31-07, 08:38 PM	I beg to differ, unless flanking, you must catch your opponent flat-footed (unaware) to perform a successful sneak attack. The rules of honorable combat (in almost any medieval culture) dictates that you do not attack an opponent who is unaware. Look at the Knight class (which is based on medieval rules of honorable combat) in the PHB2 for a good example. Now, if they had wanted the Ronin PrC to get a sneak attack bonus just while flanking, they should have done that and named it something like "flanking attack" (sorry, not feeling all that original in naming this special ability right now). I think the real question real is why does the Ronin get a Sneak Attack, period. Let's not forget that ronin means "masterless samurai". Not "dishonorable", merely "masterless". Where has it ever been written that all ronin were dishonored? During the time of the Tokugawa shogunate (sorry if I got the era or info wrong. heretic can chew me out later), the power of many daimyo were dissolved, turning many samurai of those daimyo into ronin. It doesn't sound dishonorable for your lord's power to be dissolved into the shogun. Sorry, I'm getting off-topic a little. As for your argument on Sneak Attack, you have to read the flavor and the mechanics. Sneak Attacks are done when an enemy cannot properly defend himself. There are many circumstances to that besides being just plain unawares. You could be blinded, you could have been stunned, you might have a broken arm or leg. Who knows? There is more to Sneak Attack than flanking and catching someone unaware. Knights won't (or least I won't see it as such) get looked down on for killing someone who got blinded. True combat is about survival. It's about exploiting the weaknesses of your enemy. BTW, if you like RuroKen, read vol. 8 of the manga. Saito Hajime (the fictional one, but still a samurai) said that combat was about striking an enemy's weak points. There's no such thing as fair or unfair. This was coming from a samurai, albeit a fictional one, but a samurai nonetheless.
heretic888 08-31-07, 09:04 PM	From Ellis Amdur's Samurai and Fair Fights (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.aikidojournal.com/%3Fid%3D60): It will thus perhaps appear that I bear Mr. Isoyama some animus (I do not!) in citing another statement Nathan Scott quotes him as saying that I must disagree with. “Isoyama Hiroshi Shihan … explained the frontal attack/ushirowaza setup found in Aikido as being something done for reasons of “samurai manner”. Basically, saying that it would have been un-samurai like to sneak up behind someone to attack them. So even in practice they would not train that way, lest others would think them low class.” Again, I can only state that this statement - very common among Japanese and Westerners who have an idealistic fantasy of the samurai, and evidently little actual knowledge of bushi history - is not borne out in fact. Most of the oldest jujutsu-ryu specifically have any number of surprise attacks, including attacks from the rear, WHERE THE ATTACKER WINS. No counters (they were developed later in Japanese history, in peacetime - the oldest ryu had killing methods at their core, and central were methods of quickly dispatching the vulnerable, not self-defense or counters!) The two oldest extant grappling schools, Takenouchi-ryu and Araki-ryu both have assassination methods where one feigns welcome and stabs one’s opponent to death while serving them food or drink. In short, there is considerable existing evidence, within still-living training systems which belies the fantasy that samurai would avoid attacking from behind. As these techniques have been publicly demonstrated for decades, and are portrayed in almost all texts on classical martial arts, anyone ignorant of this shows themselves to have a rather limited understanding of Japanese martial arts as they were. A sixteenth century Portuguese writer, whose name I have unfortunately forgotten, described in his journals, the behavior of the bushi of the period. He described, rather than humble self-effacement, a hypertrophied, over-blown pride as nearly universal. He then stated that it was absolutely socially acceptable, in his observations, for one bushi to cut down another if he felt shamed, and that this could be done by surprise attack rather than challenge - because it was believed that if you were surprised, you had your guard down and that was something that should never happen. (This, by the way, is the thrust of Ueshiba’s statement, “Even though your enemy may be facing the other way, if his skill is greater than yours, his body will always be full of the spirit of Bujutsu, even to the rear, and it will be dangerous [for you to attack him].”)
Professorpain 08-31-07, 11:26 PM	From Ellis Amdur's Samurai and Fair Fights (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.aikidojournal.com/%3Fid%3D60): It will thus perhaps appear that I bear Mr. Isoyama some animus (I do not!) in citing another statement Nathan Scott quotes him as saying that I must disagree with. “Isoyama Hiroshi Shihan … explained the frontal attack/ushirowaza setup found in Aikido as being something done for reasons of “samurai manner”. Basically, saying that it would have been un-samurai like to sneak up behind someone to attack them. So even in practice they would not train that way, lest others would think them low class.” Again, I can only state that this statement - very common among Japanese and Westerners who have an idealistic fantasy of the samurai, and evidently little actual knowledge of bushi history - is not borne out in fact. Most of the oldest jujutsu-ryu specifically have any number of surprise attacks, including attacks from the rear, WHERE THE ATTACKER WINS. No counters (they were developed later in Japanese history, in peacetime - the oldest ryu had killing methods at their core, and central were methods of quickly dispatching the vulnerable, not self-defense or counters!) The two oldest extant grappling schools, Takenouchi-ryu and Araki-ryu both have assassination methods where one feigns welcome and stabs one’s opponent to death while serving them food or drink. In short, there is considerable existing evidence, within still-living training systems which belies the fantasy that samurai would avoid attacking from behind. As these techniques have been publicly demonstrated for decades, and are portrayed in almost all texts on classical martial arts, anyone ignorant of this shows themselves to have a rather limited understanding of Japanese martial arts as they were. A sixteenth century Portuguese writer, whose name I have unfortunately forgotten, described in his journals, the behavior of the bushi of the period. He described, rather than humble self-effacement, a hypertrophied, over-blown pride as nearly universal. He then stated that it was absolutely socially acceptable, in his observations, for one bushi to cut down another if he felt shamed, and that this could be done by surprise attack rather than challenge - because it was believed that if you were surprised, you had your guard down and that was something that should never happen. (This, by the way, is the thrust of Ueshiba’s statement, “Even though your enemy may be facing the other way, if his skill is greater than yours, his body will always be full of the spirit of Bujutsu, even to the rear, and it will be dangerous [for you to attack him].”) You know, Aikido practitioners are not the most reliable when it comes to historical information.
heretic888 08-31-07, 11:43 PM	You know, Aikido practitioners are not the most reliable when it comes to historical information. In this particular instance, Amdur is correcting some of the misinformation believed by many aikidoka (as the context of his article makes rather clear).
Professorpain 09-01-07, 11:09 PM	In this particular instance, Amdur is correcting some of the misinformation believed by many aikidoka (as the context of his article makes rather clear). He is still an "aikidoka". Why not just post from a more reliable source in the first place?
heretic888 09-02-07, 01:33 PM	He is still an "aikidoka". Why not just post from a more reliable source in the first place? Professorpain, With all due respect, I really don't understand the line of argumentation you are advancing here. Are you suggesting that because Ellis Amdur is an aikidoka that he is somehow incapable of knowing or telling the truth?? Or, are you simply making a sweeping generalization about thousands of people and applying it to one individual in this particular instance?? In either event, this whole argument strikes me as absurd. Probably the most reputable and accessible English language source about feudal Japanese history is the military historian Karl Friday of the University of Georgia. He, too, is an aikidoka. Are you suggesting we shouldn't trust him, either?? Quite frankly, someone that has the educational background that you have claimed to should know better. These are logical fallacies that I was exposed to before my freshman year of undergraduate school. Truly astounding.
Professorpain 09-02-07, 05:54 PM	Professorpain, With all due respect, I really don't understand the line of argumentation you are advancing here. Are you suggesting that because Ellis Amdur is an aikidoka that he is somehow incapable of knowing or telling the truth?? Or, are you simply making a sweeping generalization about thousands of people and applying it to one individual in this particular instance?? In either event, this whole argument strikes me as absurd. Probably the most reputable and accessible English language source about feudal Japanese history is the military historian Karl Friday of the University of Georgia. He, too, is an aikidoka. Are you suggesting we shouldn't trust him, either?? Quite frankly, someone that has the educational background that you have claimed to should know better. These are logical fallacies that I was exposed to before my freshman year of undergraduate school. Truly astounding. I am suggesting that "aikidoka" are so immersed in a culture saturated with false historical knowledge, that even PHd Aikidoka should be treated with extreme skepticism. I myself spent some time practicing the art, and my impression of the culture which surrounds it was very negative. As for for my logical fallacies, I invoke the common sense rule here. Of course you cannot apply a generalization to a specific person. However, you can formulate a rule that you will ignore the advice of members of a community, if there is a generalization in place that they are not trust worthy. However, in the case of Aikidokas.... A broad generalization applied to a specific individual? Not at all. It is an objective fact that Aikido practitioners are profound fibbers. Don't believe me? Just look at this excert from the 3.5 Monster Manual: (From Monster Manual, pg. 10) Aikidoka Medium Sized Creature HD: 1d8 Initiative: -1 Speed: 30 AC: 10 Base Attack: +0 Reach: 5' Special Attacks: Simulate real fighting, Choreographed throw Special Qualities: Lying through teeth, Being fat and lazy ....
Hochiu 09-02-07, 11:23 PM	I am suggesting that "aikidoka" are so immersed in a culture saturated with false historical knowledge, that even PHd Aikidoka should be treated with extreme skepticism. I myself spent some time practicing the art, and my impression of the culture which surrounds it was very negative. As for for my logical fallacies, I invoke the common sense rule here. Of course you cannot apply a generalization to a specific person. However, you can formulate a rule that you will ignore the advice of members of a community, if there is a generalization in place that they are not trust worthy. However, in the case of Aikidokas.... A broad generalization applied to a specific individual? Not at all. It is an objective fact that Aikido practitioners are profound fibbers. Don't believe me? Just look at this excert from the 3.5 Monster Manual: (From Monster Manual, pg. 10) Aikidoka Medium Sized Creature HD: 1d8 Initiative: -1 Speed: 30 AC: 10 Base Attack: +0 Reach: 5' Special Attacks: Simulate real righting, Choreographed throw Special Qualities: Lying through teeth, Being fat and lazy .... Personal, nonobjective bias negates the argument. Equals, you fail.
Professorpain 09-03-07, 01:01 AM	Personal, nonobjective bias negates the argument. Equals, you fail. So your saying personally experience make objectivity impossible?
hawkinsthedm 09-03-07, 01:43 PM	Reflecting back on when I read The Book of Five Rings (or, Go Rin No Sho), the copy I had had a history of the life of Miyamoto Musashi in the preface, and many of his duels began (and ended) with him catching his opponent by surprise. I wonder if this is what the writers of the Complete Warrior were thinking about when they created the PrC. Well, whether a Sneak Attack is honorable or not (and I am willing to concede that by Feudal Japanese standards it is not), I still think that the Ronin PrC did not capture the flavor of a Ronin for me. I still do not understand why the CW Samurai receives the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when wielding a katana and a wakazashi. In the The Book of Five Rings, Miyamoto Musashi indicates that using two swords is mainly for fighting a group of people, rather than a single opponent.
heretic888 09-03-07, 07:46 PM	I am suggesting that "aikidoka" are so immersed in a culture saturated with false historical knowledge, that even PHd Aikidoka should be treated with extreme skepticism. I myself spent some time practicing the art, and my impression of the culture which surrounds it was very negative. As for for my logical fallacies, I invoke the common sense rule here. Of course you cannot apply a generalization to a specific person. However, you can formulate a rule that you will ignore the advice of members of a community, if there is a generalization in place that they are not trust worthy. Wow. Just wow. Just so we're clear here, what you are arguing is.... 1) Ellis Amdur is an aikidoka. 2) Aikidoka don't know history. 3) Thus, Ellis Amdur doesn't know history. .... right?? That one would treat Dr. Friday's scholarship (which is among the most respected in the Western world) with skepticism *solely* because he practices a particular martial goes well beyond absurd. It is downright embarrassing conduct for any academic. I really don't know what else to say here, other than the logic you are employing would fail you out of any basic critical thinking or philosophy 101 course in practically any public university in America. That someone who claims to have a doctorate in philosophy is making use of such non-sequiters is truly astounding. It practically boggles the mind. Oh, and not that it matters, but I happen to know a thing or two about premodern Japanese history. I will go on record as saying Mr. Amdur is absolutely 100% correct in his analysis of "samurai conduct".
Professorpain 09-03-07, 08:19 PM	Wow. Just wow. Just so we're clear here, what you are arguing is.... 1) Ellis Amdur is an aikidoka. 2) Aikidoka don't know history. 3) Thus, Ellis Amdur doesn't know history. .... right?? That one would treat Dr. Friday's scholarship (which is among the most respected in the Western world) with skepticism *solely* because he practices a particular martial goes well beyond absurd. It is downright embarrassing conduct for any academic. I really don't know what else to say here, other than the logic you are employing would fail you out of any basic critical thinking or philosophy 101 course in practically any public university in America. That someone who claims to have a doctorate in philosophy is making use of such non-sequiters is truly astounding. It practically boggles the mind. Oh, and not that it matters, but I happen to know a thing or two about premodern Japanese history. I will go on record as saying Mr. Amdur is absolutely 100% correct in his analysis of "samurai conduct". But I am not employing logic. I am merely applying my prejudice against aikido practitioners to your earlier post. I also ignore much of what Andrea Dworkin said because she was a militant feminist. The fact remains, he is an aikidoka. Thanks for the logic lesson. I will share it with the other professors at the conference. It should give us all a hearty laugh.
Professorpain 09-03-07, 09:04 PM	Wow. Just wow. Just so we're clear here, what you are arguing is.... 1) Ellis Amdur is an aikidoka. 2) Aikidoka don't know history. 3) Thus, Ellis Amdur doesn't know history. .... right?? ". Here is my argument 1) Aikido practicioners are not reliable sources of information 2) Ellis Amdur is an Aikido practioner 3) Therefore Ellis Amdur is not a reliable source of information. However, if you had a sense of humor you would realize I am being witty, and not making a serious argument about anything. Do you suffer from Asperger syndrome? But to be fair, I never said he was incorrect. I only said he was not a reliable source and you would be better off posting information from a non-aikido practitioner.
GEEKAZOID 09-03-07, 09:25 PM	View Post Personal, nonobjective bias negates the argument. Equals, you fail. So your saying personally experience make objectivity impossible?Irony plays in your favor here professor.:D
Hochiu 09-12-07, 05:02 PM	Here is my argument 1) Aikido practicioners are not reliable sources of information 2) Ellis Amdur is an Aikido practioner 3) Therefore Ellis Amdur is not a reliable source of information. However, if you had a sense of humor you would realize I am being witty, and not making a serious argument about anything. Do you suffer from Asperger syndrome? But to be fair, I never said he was incorrect. I only said he was not a reliable source and you would be better off posting information from a non-aikido practitioner. You're allowing a bias and prejudice against an entire community to prevent you from appreciating the work that someone who is considered a very good academic. To you, it doesn't matter one's own credentials, once they're labeled an aikido practicioner or a member of the aikido community, they are immediately invaldiated as a reliable academic source. Or at least, invalidated in so far as to be reduced to a secondary role for a preferred individual that exists outside the community. Academic merit is based off of the work one provides to the academic community as a whole, not one's race, ethnicity, or personal background, including activities or interests. I don't care if you're being "witty" or just trying to cover your end, but it fails regardless. You should know that if you really have anything to do with the academic world. So your saying personally experience make objectivity impossible? No. It cannot, because its tinged with your already preconcieved, ethnocentric notions. Personal experience is not a viable academic reference - it needs to be documented in an accepted academic work prior. However, if you had a sense of humor you would realize I am being witty, and not making a serious argument about anything. Do you suffer from Asperger syndrome? I don't have a sense of humor, and I could care less if you were being witty when trying to defend yourself when the discussion goes serious. And if someone does have AS, does it matter at all? I don't like the implication you're heading towards by bringing up the question. Word to the wise, cease that line of thought.
HidaAkira 09-13-07, 07:37 AM	The fact that a samurai allowed himself to be caught with his guard down was seen as proof that he deserved what came to him. As shown in "Seven Samurai", where the old ronin asks the young samurai to test prospective warriors by hiding behind the door and bashing them over the head with a stick.
myrpg 09-18-07, 07:15 AM	This was posted today in the official part of WoC site: FR meets OA classes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070918) The most interesting part is Shou Towns, and it gives an impression that we might get some Kara-Tur love with 4th ed. But, when is another question... Are they starting to pave the way?
Starglyte 09-18-07, 12:01 PM	This was posted today in the official part of WoC site: FR meets OA classes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070918) The most interesting part is Shou Towns, and it gives an impression that we might get some Kara-Tur love with 4th ed. But, when is another question... Are they starting to pave the way? If I remember correctly, the Shou Towns were in the Unapproachable East 3rd edition sourcebook, so they are not new. I would love to see a 4th edition Oriental Adventures with Kara-tur, but in all honesty, I don't think its even in the planning stages.
Werral 09-21-07, 11:01 AM	I think you are correct. I just want to add that I am really ticked off because I just bought a new 3.5 hardcover on wednesday. When I came I saw the countdown. Oh, and fight the power: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=907392 I can't see this thread, apparently I lack priveleges, could you quote what you want to show us?
Ranger REG 09-22-07, 02:46 AM	I think the real question real is why does the Ronin get a Sneak Attack, period. No. The real question is "Why is there a ronin prestige class in the first place?" It's like having an ex-fighter prestige class for the fighter base class. :nonono: :bored:
Pagan priest 09-22-07, 02:48 PM	No. The real question is "Why is there a ronin prestige class in the first place?" It's like having an ex-fighter prestige class for the fighter base class. :nonono: :bored: I could see it if it was a bit more like the 1st ed OA bushi: someone who has learned to adapt to being masterless and getting by with what ever is available; someone who has accepted the dishonor of losing their place in society. This, as a way to distinguish the person from someone who is merely an unemployed samurai wandering the land.
The_Shaman 09-24-07, 08:40 AM	This was posted today in the official part of WoC site: FR meets OA classes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070918) The most interesting part is Shou Towns, and it gives an impression that we might get some Kara-Tur love with 4th ed. But, when is another question... Are they starting to pave the way? Not really: the shou expatriate community in Thesk was well established in FRCS (the 3.0 sourcebook on the Realms) and probably before; the 3.5 (or 3.25, given how it includes concepts typical for 3.0 such as the monk BAB) Unapproachable East splatbook has more on the topic. It was a way to include some elements of Kara-Tur into newer supplements, probably due to popular demand. AFAIK there are no plans for supplements on the Utter East soon, but I could be wrong.
Ranger REG 10-01-07, 09:24 PM	I could see it if it was a bit more like the 1st ed OA bushi Bah! The bushi class existed due to the limitation of the mult- and dual-classing system in 1e. 3e multiclassing system (which will improve in 4e) place no such restriction so a "bushi" (a character concept) can learn trade skills from various classes if need be.