Alternate Iaijutsu duelling rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternate Iaijutsu duelling rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
HidaAkira
05-07-07, 08:26 AM The whole point of the IF skill was to have an easy to use d20 mechanic for iaijutsu duelling.
Since much of OA was based on L5R, it stands to reason that the basics of the duelling was based on L5R duelling as well (just look at the names of the duelists in the example encounter). Therefore, this whole post is an attempt to fit Rokugani duelling into d20.

Now, those who have any passing familiarity with the R&K system original L5R uses, knows that the d20 rules are greatly changed.
They have kept the basic set-up, the two opponents facing off and sizing eachother up (mechanically: a Sense Motive to determine who is the best duelist).The rest is taken care of with a simple skill check.

Now, it appears to me that the greatest problem people have with IF is that it is so often used as an extra Sneak Attack. In order to negate this use of the skill, and make an iai duel workable without Quick Draw, I have thought of some changes that could be made to the current system. The goal is to make an iai duel work more like the R&K mechanics (which is, strictly speaking, far more exciting, if more clunky) and to negate the problem of IF-sneak attacking.

1. Keep the IF skill, even this smacks like a bad conversion of mechanics (in R&K, all weapon skills are just that, skills, so the mechanics of getting better at using weapons and iaijutsu are the same - this doesn't work in d20)

2. remove Quick Draw as a prerequisite for using IF. So long as you have any ranks in IF, you may engage in a duel without penalty.
This frees up a valuable feat for those warriors who need it for other things. Those possessing QD should possibly get a bonus to their IF roll. +2/3 or something thereabouts.

3. the Sense Motive phase of the duel stays the same.

4. Focus.
This stage is imported pretty much wholecloth from the R&K mechanics. The basic idea is that the two duelists stand and focus on the other, subtly adjusting stance, breathing, and mentality to beat the other. In game mechanics, this means the two start off making IF rolls to focus, making it harder for the other to hit you, while increasing your chance of hitting your opponent.

Both parties start off with an AC of 10+armor (effectively flat footed, ignoring effects that allow them to keep their Dex or whatever modifier to AC).

The character with the highest IF skill rank is allowed to focus first. If the two are tied, the one with the highest IF skill modifier goes first. If tied, the highest level.

The first to focus rolls his IF at a DC of 10. If successful, he receives a +2 bonus to his AC for that duel. The opportunity to focus then passes to the other, who must manage a DC of 10. Assuming both parties make their rolls, the DC for the next focus roll is increased by 2.
This continues until one party either fails a roll, or declares a strike.

5. Strike
Once you fail a roll, you must declare a strike. This means that the opponent gets to roll to hit you first.
The attack roll is made with an IF roll and the normal bonus damage dice apply.

The basic idea behind these mechanics is that you either keep focusing until you have a hard time hitting the AC of your opponent (something you don't want to do) or you allow the opponent to get the first shot at you (another something you don't want).

Notes: I have ignored the whole 'number of times you can focus in a duel' thing from the original system, since it doesn't make much sense here.

Concerning the to the Iaijutsu Master PrC under these proposed rules.
Canny Defense works in a duel.
The IM would still be allowed to use his IF bonus dice in normal combat, so long as this is used in conjunction with the Strike From the Void ability (and only once in any given combat).

I haven't tried this out yet, so any constructive criticism is appreciated.
Arcanis the wacher
07-04-07, 04:35 PM Now, it appears to me that the greatest problem people have with IF is that it is so often used as an extra Sneak Attack. In order to negate this use of the skill, and make an iai duel workable without Quick Draw, I have thought of some changes that could be made to the current system. The goal is to make an iai duel work more like the R&K mechanics (which is, strictly speaking, far more exciting, if more clunky) and to negate the problem of IF-sneak attacking
in all actuality it is really hard to get off a iai atk. And as it is often used as an "extra sneak attack" outside of iai duels, whats use of the skill be if you took it and changed it to where you cant use it in combat other than an iai duel. i do like a good roleplaying in my dnd but iai duels dont come often (most ppl, npcs, others just dont go around insulting others) to merit me maxing out my IF skill as other skills are more importain if the IF skill is made to where you can only use it in iai duels.
4. Focus.
This stage is imported pretty much wholecloth from the R&K mechanics. The basic idea is that the two duelists stand and focus on the other, subtly adjusting stance, breathing, and mentality to beat the other. In game mechanics, this means the two start off making IF rolls to focus, making it harder for the other to hit you, while increasing your chance of hitting your opponent.

Both parties start off with an AC of 10+armor (effectively flat footed, ignoring effects that allow them to keep their Dex or whatever modifier to AC).

The character with the highest IF skill rank is allowed to focus first. If the two are tied, the one with the highest IF skill modifier goes first. If tied, the highest level.

The first to focus rolls his IF at a DC of 10. If successful, he receives a +2 bonus to his AC for that duel. The opportunity to focus then passes to the other, who must manage a DC of 10. Assuming both parties make their rolls, the DC for the next focus roll is increased by 2.
This continues until one party either fails a roll, or declares a strike.

this can make it to where no one will be able to hit it could be tricky: skill foucs IF, cha 18, ranks 4= 11 already at level 1 and you can (sure there is more but no books at this time) and you can purposley chose not to use armor to have your AC low just for iai duels. more to come later
Kalis Atrud
07-05-07, 10:35 AM I have read the rules for an iaijutsu duel in R&K, and I frankly must disagree with your assessment that it is more exciting than the D20 system. It might be more exciting in the future, when in place of minis we have little holographic projecters to represent our characters standing in a dueling pose, but right now it just consists of a player or the gm saying I focus until they fail a roll and take it on the chin.

It is just the d20 system, only instead of rolling directly against each other once, they see who is better at consistently rolling iaijutsu. R&K iaijutsu duels are basically games of skunk with swords, dice, and character skills/traits.

"I can focus for 25, match that!" "I also hit 25." "Well, I'll try 30 then. Darn, not in the face." "To the funeral pyre with you, Crane pansy."
Followed by crane's friend saying "How insulting, I demand a duel." at which point the ronin just says "No, not more boring focusing!" and stabs himself out of boredom.

The remaining crane then says "Exactly as planned. Kakita's system of making the mechanics of dueling so boring ensure that we Crane remain on top after all our adversary's kill themselves and the survivor claims that we killed him in a duel. Now I just need to put Kakita Nonameo in ronin brown and claim I killed two people in consecutive duels as per Crane Operations Manual number 2, er I mean Ni*."

* Keeping in tune with Rokugan Operations Manual rule 35, superfluous Japanese inserted into English transforms the text into High Rokugani
Arcanis the wacher
07-06-07, 11:23 PM "I can focus for 25, match that!" "I also hit 25." "Well, I'll try 30 then. Darn, not in the face." "To the funeral pyre with you, Crane pansy."
Followed by crane's friend saying "How insulting, I demand a duel." at which point the ronin just says "No, not more boring focusing!" and stabs himself out of boredom.

LOL this is funny
suparman999
07-11-07, 07:39 AM You can do quotes by typing [ QUOTE ](insert quote here)[ /QUOTE ], but without the spaces.
HidaAkira
07-23-07, 10:29 AM in all actuality it is really hard to get off a iai atk. And as it is often used as an "extra sneak attack" outside of iai duels, whats use of the skill be if you took it and changed it to where you cant use it in combat other than an iai

This was intentional. The use of iai dueling in-game is rare, so most professional warriors, (like the Crab) will see little point in wasting their skill points on a skill like that when a) they don't iai duel , b) you could buy more ranks in Knowledge (Shadowlands).
But in the upper crust, and the empire at large (and I believe this works as well for non-Rokugani settings) iai duels are the ultimate method of settling dusputes, a trained iai duelist is worth his weight in gold. You aren't expected to use him much, if at all, but you want him around just in case.

The only other use the Iaijutsu skill has in R&K is to allow you to quick draw, which can be useful, but not as much as you'd think.

This can make it to where no one will be able to hit it could be tricky: skill foucs IF, cha 18, ranks 4= 11 already at level 1 and you can (sure there is more but no books at this time) and you can purposley chose not to use armor to have your AC low just for iai duels. more to come later

In which case you would have to balance your focusing vs. the AC: do you want to hit your opponent at all? You might have to call strike and hope he misses.
The R&K system has a built in limit to the number of times one may focus (Void Ring+various abilities). Since OA doesn't have Void, I ignored that part.
For d20, this might be something like 1/2 IF ranks, 1/level, or something similar.

You might want to up the DC increases to 5, keeping the AC bonus as it is. This will severely reduce the number of focuses one can expect to make.

I have read the rules for an iaijutsu duel in R&K, and I frankly must disagree with your assessment that it is more exciting than the D20 system. It might be more exciting in the future, when in place of minis we have little holographic projecters to represent our characters standing in a dueling pose, but right now it just consists of a player or the gm saying I focus until they fail a roll and take it on the chin.

Different opinions. The current D&D system is, to my mind, rather abrupt and over too quickly. It doesn't give you (or at least me) the feeling of intense focus and concentration.

Think of the duel in "Sanjuro" - to my mind the focus/strike way is a better representation than one roll and it's over.
Kalis Atrud
07-24-07, 08:39 AM Different opinions. The current D&D system is, to my mind, rather abrupt and over too quickly. It doesn't give you (or at least me) the feeling of intense focus and concentration.

Think of the duel in "Sanjuro" - to my mind the focus/strike way is a better representation than one roll and it's over.

Of course it is over quickly, it is a quick draw duel. The Sanjuro duel is interesting to me because it has build up that is interesting and suddenly it has an abrupt and quick ending. To use an analogy, we don't see Sanjuro's player and the DM saying "I focus", until one guy screws up.

I think the d20 system fits better because it better represents the abrupt ending than the focus/strike and the rest of the duel can be represented by gm flavor text. The only problem I have with the d20 system is that the duels seem one sided if your enemy is killed on the first strike. You draw and kill him while, because of initiative, he doesn't even start to get his sword out of the scabbard.

Don't get me started on the craziness of the AEG forums arguing over the dishonor or lack thereof of the Ronin 5th rank technique.
HidaAkira
07-25-07, 02:07 AM I beg to differ.
The duel in Sanjuro is precicely a great example of focus/strike. They don't just get positioned in front of each other and then draw, they stare, try to get the mental edge over their opponent, read every nuance of their stance, eyes, every little movement - yes, it's a build-up (read: focus)

The strike itself is of course over in a moment. And you can't claim that the Fodus/strike system says anything else.

And as for people dying on that first blow, well, that was the whole point of an iai duel - the swiftest blade wins. The slower loses, and generally pays for it with his life.
Kalis Atrud
07-25-07, 06:13 PM And as for people dying on that first blow, well, that was the whole point of an iai duel - the swiftest blade wins. The slower loses, and generally pays for it with his life.

I have no problem with somebody dying on the first blow in a fight, iai duel or otherwise.

The problem isn't that the swiftest blade wins, it is that the slowest blade didn't move beyond assuming a stance(ie the weapon isn't even partly out of the saya). One of the trappings of turn based combat though, so I have to deal.
HidaAkira
07-26-07, 02:12 AM Actually, there's nothing saying that the loser doesn't even get his sword part-way out - all it says is that he loses. I guess Wyatt didn't see the need to add rules for how far you had drawn your sword by the time the winner hits you.

And R&K has this exact same 'problem'.

If it was really that important, I'd leave it up to the DM to say how well the loser did. If you lose by one point I'd say the sword was out of the saya and well on its way to hitting, while if you lose by, say, 10 or more you didn't get a chance to react.
narukagami
07-26-07, 02:31 AM And R&K has this exact same 'problem'. That, and all the non-duelist classes being better at dueling than the duelists. ;)
HidaAkira
07-27-07, 01:45 AM Oh, come on, not ALL of them. :D

The Kakita bushi still trumps any Badger.
narukagami
07-27-07, 12:49 PM Oh, come on, not ALL of them. :D

The Kakita bushi still trumps any Badger. Too bad thats the only thing it trumps. :P
HidaAkira
07-28-07, 03:57 AM And shugenja. Most shugenja aren't gonna be terribly good against a Kakita.

Actually, most minor clans are gonna lose against a Kakita. Except the ¤%&"!"Ł$€ Monkey clan.
(Toku bushi is seriously nerfed in my campaigns)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HidaAkira 05-07-07, 08:26 AM	The whole point of the IF skill was to have an easy to use d20 mechanic for iaijutsu duelling. Since much of OA was based on L5R, it stands to reason that the basics of the duelling was based on L5R duelling as well (just look at the names of the duelists in the example encounter). Therefore, this whole post is an attempt to fit Rokugani duelling into d20. Now, those who have any passing familiarity with the R&K system original L5R uses, knows that the d20 rules are greatly changed. They have kept the basic set-up, the two opponents facing off and sizing eachother up (mechanically: a Sense Motive to determine who is the best duelist).The rest is taken care of with a simple skill check. Now, it appears to me that the greatest problem people have with IF is that it is so often used as an extra Sneak Attack. In order to negate this use of the skill, and make an iai duel workable without Quick Draw, I have thought of some changes that could be made to the current system. The goal is to make an iai duel work more like the R&K mechanics (which is, strictly speaking, far more exciting, if more clunky) and to negate the problem of IF-sneak attacking. 1. Keep the IF skill, even this smacks like a bad conversion of mechanics (in R&K, all weapon skills are just that, skills, so the mechanics of getting better at using weapons and iaijutsu are the same - this doesn't work in d20) 2. remove Quick Draw as a prerequisite for using IF. So long as you have any ranks in IF, you may engage in a duel without penalty. This frees up a valuable feat for those warriors who need it for other things. Those possessing QD should possibly get a bonus to their IF roll. +2/3 or something thereabouts. 3. the Sense Motive phase of the duel stays the same. 4. Focus. This stage is imported pretty much wholecloth from the R&K mechanics. The basic idea is that the two duelists stand and focus on the other, subtly adjusting stance, breathing, and mentality to beat the other. In game mechanics, this means the two start off making IF rolls to focus, making it harder for the other to hit you, while increasing your chance of hitting your opponent. Both parties start off with an AC of 10+armor (effectively flat footed, ignoring effects that allow them to keep their Dex or whatever modifier to AC). The character with the highest IF skill rank is allowed to focus first. If the two are tied, the one with the highest IF skill modifier goes first. If tied, the highest level. The first to focus rolls his IF at a DC of 10. If successful, he receives a +2 bonus to his AC for that duel. The opportunity to focus then passes to the other, who must manage a DC of 10. Assuming both parties make their rolls, the DC for the next focus roll is increased by 2. This continues until one party either fails a roll, or declares a strike. 5. Strike Once you fail a roll, you must declare a strike. This means that the opponent gets to roll to hit you first. The attack roll is made with an IF roll and the normal bonus damage dice apply. The basic idea behind these mechanics is that you either keep focusing until you have a hard time hitting the AC of your opponent (something you don't want to do) or you allow the opponent to get the first shot at you (another something you don't want). Notes: I have ignored the whole 'number of times you can focus in a duel' thing from the original system, since it doesn't make much sense here. Concerning the to the Iaijutsu Master PrC under these proposed rules. Canny Defense works in a duel. The IM would still be allowed to use his IF bonus dice in normal combat, so long as this is used in conjunction with the Strike From the Void ability (and only once in any given combat). I haven't tried this out yet, so any constructive criticism is appreciated.
Arcanis the wacher 07-04-07, 04:35 PM	Now, it appears to me that the greatest problem people have with IF is that it is so often used as an extra Sneak Attack. In order to negate this use of the skill, and make an iai duel workable without Quick Draw, I have thought of some changes that could be made to the current system. The goal is to make an iai duel work more like the R&K mechanics (which is, strictly speaking, far more exciting, if more clunky) and to negate the problem of IF-sneak attacking in all actuality it is really hard to get off a iai atk. And as it is often used as an "extra sneak attack" outside of iai duels, whats use of the skill be if you took it and changed it to where you cant use it in combat other than an iai duel. i do like a good roleplaying in my dnd but iai duels dont come often (most ppl, npcs, others just dont go around insulting others) to merit me maxing out my IF skill as other skills are more importain if the IF skill is made to where you can only use it in iai duels. 4. Focus. This stage is imported pretty much wholecloth from the R&K mechanics. The basic idea is that the two duelists stand and focus on the other, subtly adjusting stance, breathing, and mentality to beat the other. In game mechanics, this means the two start off making IF rolls to focus, making it harder for the other to hit you, while increasing your chance of hitting your opponent. Both parties start off with an AC of 10+armor (effectively flat footed, ignoring effects that allow them to keep their Dex or whatever modifier to AC). The character with the highest IF skill rank is allowed to focus first. If the two are tied, the one with the highest IF skill modifier goes first. If tied, the highest level. The first to focus rolls his IF at a DC of 10. If successful, he receives a +2 bonus to his AC for that duel. The opportunity to focus then passes to the other, who must manage a DC of 10. Assuming both parties make their rolls, the DC for the next focus roll is increased by 2. This continues until one party either fails a roll, or declares a strike. this can make it to where no one will be able to hit it could be tricky: skill foucs IF, cha 18, ranks 4= 11 already at level 1 and you can (sure there is more but no books at this time) and you can purposley chose not to use armor to have your AC low just for iai duels. more to come later
Kalis Atrud 07-05-07, 10:35 AM	I have read the rules for an iaijutsu duel in R&K, and I frankly must disagree with your assessment that it is more exciting than the D20 system. It might be more exciting in the future, when in place of minis we have little holographic projecters to represent our characters standing in a dueling pose, but right now it just consists of a player or the gm saying I focus until they fail a roll and take it on the chin. It is just the d20 system, only instead of rolling directly against each other once, they see who is better at consistently rolling iaijutsu. R&K iaijutsu duels are basically games of skunk with swords, dice, and character skills/traits. "I can focus for 25, match that!" "I also hit 25." "Well, I'll try 30 then. Darn, not in the face." "To the funeral pyre with you, Crane pansy." Followed by crane's friend saying "How insulting, I demand a duel." at which point the ronin just says "No, not more boring focusing!" and stabs himself out of boredom. The remaining crane then says "Exactly as planned. Kakita's system of making the mechanics of dueling so boring ensure that we Crane remain on top after all our adversary's kill themselves and the survivor claims that we killed him in a duel. Now I just need to put Kakita Nonameo in ronin brown and claim I killed two people in consecutive duels as per Crane Operations Manual number 2, er I mean Ni." Keeping in tune with Rokugan Operations Manual rule 35, superfluous Japanese inserted into English transforms the text into High Rokugani
Arcanis the wacher 07-06-07, 11:23 PM	"I can focus for 25, match that!" "I also hit 25." "Well, I'll try 30 then. Darn, not in the face." "To the funeral pyre with you, Crane pansy." Followed by crane's friend saying "How insulting, I demand a duel." at which point the ronin just says "No, not more boring focusing!" and stabs himself out of boredom. LOL this is funny
suparman999 07-11-07, 07:39 AM	You can do quotes by typing [ QUOTE ](insert quote here)[ /QUOTE ], but without the spaces.
HidaAkira 07-23-07, 10:29 AM	in all actuality it is really hard to get off a iai atk. And as it is often used as an "extra sneak attack" outside of iai duels, whats use of the skill be if you took it and changed it to where you cant use it in combat other than an iai This was intentional. The use of iai dueling in-game is rare, so most professional warriors, (like the Crab) will see little point in wasting their skill points on a skill like that when a) they don't iai duel , b) you could buy more ranks in Knowledge (Shadowlands). But in the upper crust, and the empire at large (and I believe this works as well for non-Rokugani settings) iai duels are the ultimate method of settling dusputes, a trained iai duelist is worth his weight in gold. You aren't expected to use him much, if at all, but you want him around just in case. The only other use the Iaijutsu skill has in R&K is to allow you to quick draw, which can be useful, but not as much as you'd think. This can make it to where no one will be able to hit it could be tricky: skill foucs IF, cha 18, ranks 4= 11 already at level 1 and you can (sure there is more but no books at this time) and you can purposley chose not to use armor to have your AC low just for iai duels. more to come later In which case you would have to balance your focusing vs. the AC: do you want to hit your opponent at all? You might have to call strike and hope he misses. The R&K system has a built in limit to the number of times one may focus (Void Ring+various abilities). Since OA doesn't have Void, I ignored that part. For d20, this might be something like 1/2 IF ranks, 1/level, or something similar. You might want to up the DC increases to 5, keeping the AC bonus as it is. This will severely reduce the number of focuses one can expect to make. I have read the rules for an iaijutsu duel in R&K, and I frankly must disagree with your assessment that it is more exciting than the D20 system. It might be more exciting in the future, when in place of minis we have little holographic projecters to represent our characters standing in a dueling pose, but right now it just consists of a player or the gm saying I focus until they fail a roll and take it on the chin. Different opinions. The current D&D system is, to my mind, rather abrupt and over too quickly. It doesn't give you (or at least me) the feeling of intense focus and concentration. Think of the duel in "Sanjuro" - to my mind the focus/strike way is a better representation than one roll and it's over.
Kalis Atrud 07-24-07, 08:39 AM	Different opinions. The current D&D system is, to my mind, rather abrupt and over too quickly. It doesn't give you (or at least me) the feeling of intense focus and concentration. Think of the duel in "Sanjuro" - to my mind the focus/strike way is a better representation than one roll and it's over. Of course it is over quickly, it is a quick draw duel. The Sanjuro duel is interesting to me because it has build up that is interesting and suddenly it has an abrupt and quick ending. To use an analogy, we don't see Sanjuro's player and the DM saying "I focus", until one guy screws up. I think the d20 system fits better because it better represents the abrupt ending than the focus/strike and the rest of the duel can be represented by gm flavor text. The only problem I have with the d20 system is that the duels seem one sided if your enemy is killed on the first strike. You draw and kill him while, because of initiative, he doesn't even start to get his sword out of the scabbard. Don't get me started on the craziness of the AEG forums arguing over the dishonor or lack thereof of the Ronin 5th rank technique.
HidaAkira 07-25-07, 02:07 AM	I beg to differ. The duel in Sanjuro is precicely a great example of focus/strike. They don't just get positioned in front of each other and then draw, they stare, try to get the mental edge over their opponent, read every nuance of their stance, eyes, every little movement - yes, it's a build-up (read: focus) The strike itself is of course over in a moment. And you can't claim that the Fodus/strike system says anything else. And as for people dying on that first blow, well, that was the whole point of an iai duel - the swiftest blade wins. The slower loses, and generally pays for it with his life.
Kalis Atrud 07-25-07, 06:13 PM	And as for people dying on that first blow, well, that was the whole point of an iai duel - the swiftest blade wins. The slower loses, and generally pays for it with his life. I have no problem with somebody dying on the first blow in a fight, iai duel or otherwise. The problem isn't that the swiftest blade wins, it is that the slowest blade didn't move beyond assuming a stance(ie the weapon isn't even partly out of the saya). One of the trappings of turn based combat though, so I have to deal.
HidaAkira 07-26-07, 02:12 AM	Actually, there's nothing saying that the loser doesn't even get his sword part-way out - all it says is that he loses. I guess Wyatt didn't see the need to add rules for how far you had drawn your sword by the time the winner hits you. And R&K has this exact same 'problem'. If it was really that important, I'd leave it up to the DM to say how well the loser did. If you lose by one point I'd say the sword was out of the saya and well on its way to hitting, while if you lose by, say, 10 or more you didn't get a chance to react.
narukagami 07-26-07, 02:31 AM	And R&K has this exact same 'problem'. That, and all the non-duelist classes being better at dueling than the duelists. ;)
HidaAkira 07-27-07, 01:45 AM	Oh, come on, not ALL of them. :D The Kakita bushi still trumps any Badger.
narukagami 07-27-07, 12:49 PM	Oh, come on, not ALL of them. :D The Kakita bushi still trumps any Badger. Too bad thats the only thing it trumps. :P
HidaAkira 07-28-07, 03:57 AM	And shugenja. Most shugenja aren't gonna be terribly good against a Kakita. Actually, most minor clans are gonna lose against a Kakita. Except the ¤%&"!"Ł$€ Monkey clan. (Toku bushi is seriously nerfed in my campaigns)