DM's samurai dilemma [Archive] - Wizards Community

DM's samurai dilemma [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
angryman
05-23-07, 02:59 AM Here's my situation. I'm running a mythical Sengoku period Japan game, just before the end of the period.
One of the PCs is playing a samurai and wants to be a kensei, and has been trying to get as much honour as he can. He is the deputy sheriff of a small town in Kyushu and went to Shikoku with the other PCs. They partook in a battle there against the rebel forces attacking a castle town and rescued the daimyo. The PC's father was very angry that he brought such a heavy burden into the clan (the escaped daimyo) and ordered the PC to head to Osaka to ask the (not shogun but actually shogun in all but name) Regent Hideyoshi what to do with the daimyo and his family.

* Hideyoshi ordered the samurai PC to kill the Daimyo's family including the four children (aged between 5-20) as well as the servants (which made his claim to that area more 'legit') which the PC said he would do. Later, he questioned the Regent and was ordered unambiguously to do it.

The PC got back home and told the daimyo what the regent said. He *knew* the daimyo was a coward and (no surprise) the daimyo was killed trying to escape, but his eldest son (20 years old) escaped as did two daughters.

What should I do from here? The regent (who will find out- he was famous for using a large network of ninja and the PC's brother will also tell the regent because he hates the PC) should order him to commit seppuku, really, but that's a bit harsh. Any ideas?
The_Shaman
05-23-07, 06:28 AM How close are you to the RL period? AFAIK, the code of Bushido was not developed until much later, so standards for loyalty in the actual Warring States period might be lower than the devotion often perceived as "typical" for the samurai. Chances are that if there is a risk of a war, Hideyoshi would not be so quick to dispense of a generally useful vassal.

However, an action against a clan might bring the possibility of a blood feud, either open or covert. If the PC has so far performed well, I would not force him to kill himself, but have him know in no uncertain terms that for the safety of regent and the realm, anyone who can start a vendetta must be eliminated. I think there were some codes about who can carry out a blood feud, so that might simplify things a bit. Otherwise, have him told that he will be considered a traitor and dealt with accordingly.

Thus, he will have two options: go on a mission to kill the relatives or desert. All of this presumes that he has so far been loyal and competent; if Hideyoshi carries a grudge, he might order sepuku or (if he doesn't want to risk it) order him assassinated.
narukagami
05-23-07, 10:38 AM What you have is an instant adventure hook for a whole campaign arc!

Have some executioners come after the PC, but allow the PC to escape and go Ronin, and wander the countryside avoiding or fighting assassins and mercenaries after his head. Ala Loan Wolf and Cub, sans cub. Hideyoshi would probably want to keep things under the rug for sake of face, so not everyone in the world would really know whats going on, probably. Most peasants probably wouldn't care depending on the PC's actions towards them while he is a ronin. So he can at least gain aid from the people.

Then you could have the PC eventually get approached by Tokugawa Ieyasu, and let him play a part in the Battle of Sekigahara.

Also, as said, the all encompassing code of bushido did not exist at the time you're playing in. So any honor loss incurred could be completely up to the PC's personal honor code. Heck, you could even justify that by feeling compassion he could even gain honor, but its a stretch.
spyone
05-24-07, 11:37 AM What should I do from here? The regent (who will find out- he was famous for using a large network of ninja and the PC's brother will also tell the regent because he hates the PC) should order him to commit seppuku, really, but that's a bit harsh. Any ideas?

Depends on what the PC does.
After all, he was ordered to kill them. You didn't say anything about being ordered not to tell them first, or being ordered to kill them "the instant he saw them". So, they escaped before he got to killing them.
Problem? Yes. Insurmountable? No.

He just has to find them an kill them (which might be a campaign onto itself).
Yes, the Regent might send guys after him if he feels his is being insufficiently speedy in finding and killing them. And he might dispatch others to find and kill them who might get the job done first (which would be a dishonor to the PC).

Of course, if the PC decides NOT to go after them, his choices become more ... limited. He is soon going to be branded an outlaw for having defied the Regent, and it is not good for the Regent ot have people who defied him running oround free, so the Regent is going to willing to commit more and more resources to finding and killing the PC as time goes by. Which could be another campaign.

IMO, YMMV.
Ranger REG
05-24-07, 08:11 PM Here's my situation. I'm running a mythical Sengoku period Japan game, just before the end of the period.
One of the PCs is playing a samurai and wants to be a kensei, and has been trying to get as much honour as he can. He is the deputy sheriff of a small town in Kyushu and went to Shikoku with the other PCs. They partook in a battle there against the rebel forces attacking a castle town and rescued the daimyo. The PC's father was very angry that he brought such a heavy burden into the clan (the escaped daimyo) and ordered the PC to head to Osaka to ask the (not shogun but actually shogun in all but name) Regent Hideyoshi what to do with the daimyo and his family.

* Hideyoshi ordered the samurai PC to kill the Daimyo's family including the four children (aged between 5-20) as well as the servants (which made his claim to that area more 'legit') which the PC said he would do. Later, he questioned the Regent and was ordered unambiguously to do it.

The PC got back home and told the daimyo what the regent said. He *knew* the daimyo was a coward and (no surprise) the daimyo was killed trying to escape, but his eldest son (20 years old) escaped as did two daughters.

What should I do from here? The regent (who will find out- he was famous for using a large network of ninja and the PC's brother will also tell the regent because he hates the PC) should order him to commit seppuku, really, but that's a bit harsh. Any ideas?
In the eyes of Japanese samurai class, seppukku is not out of the question. In fact, such a samurai who failed in his task would practically begged his superior that he commit seppukku to wash the stain of failure from the honor of his family and himself. Some daimyo would be moved by such gesture and if he believe the sincerity of the samurai (especially a samurai that have won many battles in his daimyo's honor), he would forbid him and probably give him a chance to atone for his past failed mission.

Then again, a daimyo cannot have a samurai who fails him and then allow him to live without correcting the mistake. Those around him would not stand for such act from their leader for letting failure go unpunished. Other samurai would think they could get a second chance if they failed to follow their superior's order. If such a samurai is not looked favorably by him and his bakufu, then his life is already forfeit.

That's why samurai are prime example of heroic figures in a tragedy, not some fairy tale legend.
Zaver
05-25-07, 07:26 PM Keep in mind that Seppuku was a way of regaining honor, and wasn't something they let you do all the time. The PC might have hurt Hideyoshi's standing by letting the 20 year old escape. For that he might just be ordered executed out right. If you go that route it's easy enough to give the player time to come up with an idea, say persue the son and meet the soldiers who come to arrest him with the lads head. Or defect to another lord or just go ronin with out actually taking the levels in ronin. In Hagakure there is a part where they say every samurai should be a ronin at least once.
Ranger REG
05-25-07, 09:58 PM If anything, I probably won't report to my daimyo but go after the escapees, kill them, and bring back their heads. Then surrender to my superior and hope that by having completed my task with proof, I save face for everyone involved. I still expect to be meted with the ultimate punishment, but hope my humble gesture would make my daimyo reconsider.
angryman
05-27-07, 01:36 AM If anything, I probably won't report to my daimyo but go after the escapees, kill them, and bring back their heads. Then surrender to my superior and hope that by having completed my task with proof, I save face for everyone involved. I still expect to be meted with the ultimate punishment, but hope my humble gesture would make my daimyo reconsider.

That's one way to do it, though Toyotomi isn't merely his daimyo- he's the PC's daimyo's liege lord, i.e., the Regent (technically, he's Shogun in all but name).
Ranger REG
05-27-07, 01:54 AM Then it is whoever appointed you the task, that you surrender yourself (with the head as offering) and save face for your own daimyo, your clan, your family, and yourself.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
angryman 05-23-07, 02:59 AM	Here's my situation. I'm running a mythical Sengoku period Japan game, just before the end of the period. One of the PCs is playing a samurai and wants to be a kensei, and has been trying to get as much honour as he can. He is the deputy sheriff of a small town in Kyushu and went to Shikoku with the other PCs. They partook in a battle there against the rebel forces attacking a castle town and rescued the daimyo. The PC's father was very angry that he brought such a heavy burden into the clan (the escaped daimyo) and ordered the PC to head to Osaka to ask the (not shogun but actually shogun in all but name) Regent Hideyoshi what to do with the daimyo and his family. * Hideyoshi ordered the samurai PC to kill the Daimyo's family including the four children (aged between 5-20) as well as the servants (which made his claim to that area more 'legit') which the PC said he would do. Later, he questioned the Regent and was ordered unambiguously to do it. The PC got back home and told the daimyo what the regent said. He knew the daimyo was a coward and (no surprise) the daimyo was killed trying to escape, but his eldest son (20 years old) escaped as did two daughters. What should I do from here? The regent (who will find out- he was famous for using a large network of ninja and the PC's brother will also tell the regent because he hates the PC) should order him to commit seppuku, really, but that's a bit harsh. Any ideas?
The_Shaman 05-23-07, 06:28 AM	How close are you to the RL period? AFAIK, the code of Bushido was not developed until much later, so standards for loyalty in the actual Warring States period might be lower than the devotion often perceived as "typical" for the samurai. Chances are that if there is a risk of a war, Hideyoshi would not be so quick to dispense of a generally useful vassal. However, an action against a clan might bring the possibility of a blood feud, either open or covert. If the PC has so far performed well, I would not force him to kill himself, but have him know in no uncertain terms that for the safety of regent and the realm, anyone who can start a vendetta must be eliminated. I think there were some codes about who can carry out a blood feud, so that might simplify things a bit. Otherwise, have him told that he will be considered a traitor and dealt with accordingly. Thus, he will have two options: go on a mission to kill the relatives or desert. All of this presumes that he has so far been loyal and competent; if Hideyoshi carries a grudge, he might order sepuku or (if he doesn't want to risk it) order him assassinated.
narukagami 05-23-07, 10:38 AM	What you have is an instant adventure hook for a whole campaign arc! Have some executioners come after the PC, but allow the PC to escape and go Ronin, and wander the countryside avoiding or fighting assassins and mercenaries after his head. Ala Loan Wolf and Cub, sans cub. Hideyoshi would probably want to keep things under the rug for sake of face, so not everyone in the world would really know whats going on, probably. Most peasants probably wouldn't care depending on the PC's actions towards them while he is a ronin. So he can at least gain aid from the people. Then you could have the PC eventually get approached by Tokugawa Ieyasu, and let him play a part in the Battle of Sekigahara. Also, as said, the all encompassing code of bushido did not exist at the time you're playing in. So any honor loss incurred could be completely up to the PC's personal honor code. Heck, you could even justify that by feeling compassion he could even gain honor, but its a stretch.
spyone 05-24-07, 11:37 AM	What should I do from here? The regent (who will find out- he was famous for using a large network of ninja and the PC's brother will also tell the regent because he hates the PC) should order him to commit seppuku, really, but that's a bit harsh. Any ideas? Depends on what the PC does. After all, he was ordered to kill them. You didn't say anything about being ordered not to tell them first, or being ordered to kill them "the instant he saw them". So, they escaped before he got to killing them. Problem? Yes. Insurmountable? No. He just has to find them an kill them (which might be a campaign onto itself). Yes, the Regent might send guys after him if he feels his is being insufficiently speedy in finding and killing them. And he might dispatch others to find and kill them who might get the job done first (which would be a dishonor to the PC). Of course, if the PC decides NOT to go after them, his choices become more ... limited. He is soon going to be branded an outlaw for having defied the Regent, and it is not good for the Regent ot have people who defied him running oround free, so the Regent is going to willing to commit more and more resources to finding and killing the PC as time goes by. Which could be another campaign. IMO, YMMV.
Ranger REG 05-24-07, 08:11 PM	Here's my situation. I'm running a mythical Sengoku period Japan game, just before the end of the period. One of the PCs is playing a samurai and wants to be a kensei, and has been trying to get as much honour as he can. He is the deputy sheriff of a small town in Kyushu and went to Shikoku with the other PCs. They partook in a battle there against the rebel forces attacking a castle town and rescued the daimyo. The PC's father was very angry that he brought such a heavy burden into the clan (the escaped daimyo) and ordered the PC to head to Osaka to ask the (not shogun but actually shogun in all but name) Regent Hideyoshi what to do with the daimyo and his family. * Hideyoshi ordered the samurai PC to kill the Daimyo's family including the four children (aged between 5-20) as well as the servants (which made his claim to that area more 'legit') which the PC said he would do. Later, he questioned the Regent and was ordered unambiguously to do it. The PC got back home and told the daimyo what the regent said. He knew the daimyo was a coward and (no surprise) the daimyo was killed trying to escape, but his eldest son (20 years old) escaped as did two daughters. What should I do from here? The regent (who will find out- he was famous for using a large network of ninja and the PC's brother will also tell the regent because he hates the PC) should order him to commit seppuku, really, but that's a bit harsh. Any ideas? In the eyes of Japanese samurai class, seppukku is not out of the question. In fact, such a samurai who failed in his task would practically begged his superior that he commit seppukku to wash the stain of failure from the honor of his family and himself. Some daimyo would be moved by such gesture and if he believe the sincerity of the samurai (especially a samurai that have won many battles in his daimyo's honor), he would forbid him and probably give him a chance to atone for his past failed mission. Then again, a daimyo cannot have a samurai who fails him and then allow him to live without correcting the mistake. Those around him would not stand for such act from their leader for letting failure go unpunished. Other samurai would think they could get a second chance if they failed to follow their superior's order. If such a samurai is not looked favorably by him and his bakufu, then his life is already forfeit. That's why samurai are prime example of heroic figures in a tragedy, not some fairy tale legend.
Zaver 05-25-07, 07:26 PM	Keep in mind that Seppuku was a way of regaining honor, and wasn't something they let you do all the time. The PC might have hurt Hideyoshi's standing by letting the 20 year old escape. For that he might just be ordered executed out right. If you go that route it's easy enough to give the player time to come up with an idea, say persue the son and meet the soldiers who come to arrest him with the lads head. Or defect to another lord or just go ronin with out actually taking the levels in ronin. In Hagakure there is a part where they say every samurai should be a ronin at least once.
Ranger REG 05-25-07, 09:58 PM	If anything, I probably won't report to my daimyo but go after the escapees, kill them, and bring back their heads. Then surrender to my superior and hope that by having completed my task with proof, I save face for everyone involved. I still expect to be meted with the ultimate punishment, but hope my humble gesture would make my daimyo reconsider.
angryman 05-27-07, 01:36 AM	If anything, I probably won't report to my daimyo but go after the escapees, kill them, and bring back their heads. Then surrender to my superior and hope that by having completed my task with proof, I save face for everyone involved. I still expect to be meted with the ultimate punishment, but hope my humble gesture would make my daimyo reconsider. That's one way to do it, though Toyotomi isn't merely his daimyo- he's the PC's daimyo's liege lord, i.e., the Regent (technically, he's Shogun in all but name).
Ranger REG 05-27-07, 01:54 AM	Then it is whoever appointed you the task, that you surrender yourself (with the head as offering) and save face for your own daimyo, your clan, your family, and yourself.