Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CaptKillern 04-23-08, 09:31 PM	Hello, So I saw The Forbidden Kingdom. The one thing that hit me is all of the characters knew martial arts... In most of my OA games only the monk does... Even if a character takes Improved unarmed strike its not really the same as mastering kungfu... In the movies evryone knows. From the Saucy Biwa playing bar girl to the Muscle bound woodsman... In D&D only the fighter really has enough feats to do much with martial arts, and the other classes cant really afford to invest any feats in it at all. So with the goal to have martial arts be available and not limit players concepts for there characters (by taking feats they need for prestige classes etc...) I was thinking of maybe having Martial arts be based on Skill points... abilities are unlocked at certain skill ranks... for example: Iron Monkey style Requirements: Improved unarmed Strike. Ranks 1-5 Novice add +2 to unarmed damage, 6-10 Intermediate gain dmg reduction 1/magic 11-15 advanced gain improved crit with unarmed strikes 16-20 expert 21+ master I am not that familiar with actual martial arts... Maybe someone who is can elaborate and help create some martial art forms? I know this system favors high skill point classes like bard and rogue, but i dont think it would through balance out of whack... What do you think.
RoyalBlueEyes 04-23-08, 10:21 PM	Please don't remind me of that cheesy movie...it almost follows Warriors of Virtue scene for scene...:rant: ANYWAY...horrible Boston accents and stereotypical teenaged nerd obsessions with asian girls aside: Martial Arts feats shouldn't be something that everyone can do. Or else they would. As for The Forbidden Kingdom's cast; EVERYONE who was a main character, had a name, and ACTUALLY FOUGHT knew KungFu. This is easily explained by the fact that Jackie Chan's character was a Warrior/Scholar, Jet Li's was ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...a piece of the Monkey God's hair, and Sparrow (the biwa player) trained to fight and kill the Jade Warlord. All of the Jade Warlord's troops were part of the military, thusly they knew Kung Fu. As for Martial Arts Styles: Look in the Oriental Adventures book and the Oriental Adventures Rokugan Supplement: The Way of the Open Hand. They are presented as feats, yes, but also keep in mind, if you aren't focusing on punching, kicking, and tumbling in the air like a madman each and everyday as you do with your sword, you aren't doing anything. I take Jujutsu and Karate and unless I'm putting as much effort into them as I do in Iaido, I am not going to be even partial good at them. Back to game mechanics: I'll tell you why treating martial arts like skills is bad at the end of this. Improved Unarmed Strike is the be all end all feat for any basics in Martial Arts. You learn how to hit, you learn how to hit HARD! As hard as a gauntlet. That's some power there. Improved Grapple is for soft forms (think Jujutsu), you learn how to successfully deal with an opponent who grapples you or you have grappled. Taking them down is all you need to do to force them into your own terms. Stunning Fist is a hard hit to the pressure points. And then Open Hand has unarmed and weapon styles which have various styles for each and a little history you can twist and change to your campaigns desire. And now I'll answer why: Feats are expensive, I agree, but there is a reason very few skills have ever had a damaging combat use, and even then, quite limited in their design. If skills can be broken simply by min-maxing, then someone will eventually find a way to break it so that by level one, they are all ready a master. All of the power and none of the wisdom (/character development). You want to be a martial artist? Dip into Fighter, Monk. or Inkyo. From a roleplaying standpoint, is anyone going to see that you have a little monk or fighter in you? No. You want to be like that kid and do Kung Fu? By the end of the movie, he probably was a Commoner 1/Monk 3. Now, I'm not going to point you in the direction of Order of the Stick and make you read up on Miko Miyazaki being a Samurai of the Paladin Class (since I firmly believe Samurai should be its own class), but this falls along the same lines. Martial discipline takes levels of experience to be able to smash monsters faces in. You can Fu-Man-Chu your way to martial arts mastery simply by putting skill points in like money into Chun-Kuk-Do...-I mean Power Kix...-I mean quarters in a gumdrop machine. (Yes, I do hate those daycares immensely. Martial Arts is not "Insert Money, Take Belt")
Leress 04-24-08, 01:30 AM	Hello, So with the goal to have martial arts be available and not limit players concepts for there characters (by taking feats they need for prestige classes etc...) I was thinking of maybe having Martial arts be based on Skill points... abilities are unlocked at certain skill ranks... for example: Iron Monkey style Requirements: Improved unarmed Strike. Ranks 1-5 Novice add +2 to unarmed damage, 6-10 Intermediate gain dmg reduction 1/magic 11-15 advanced gain improved crit with unarmed strikes 16-20 expert 21+ master This isn't good at all, since you have at first Weapons Spec (unarmed strike), at 3rd level you have a practically worthless damage reduction, then at 8th level you get improve crit (unarmed strike) you it doesn't even matter by this level to have it. I am not that familiar with actual martial arts... Maybe someone who is can elaborate and help create some martial art forms? I know this system favors high skill point classes like bard and rogue, but i dont think it would through balance out of whack... Um...no it doesn't it only favors those who have the skill as a class skill. What do you think. It is a good idea, a scaling feat. Now the best to make this work is to make it based off the ranks of an already existing skill (balance, bluff, etc) and have it at the ranks of 4,9,14, and 19. Also have it give an initial benefit. Mind you I haven't seen the movie Example (this if rough draft) Iron Monkey Style [Skill] Benefit: Opponents that attacks you in melee provoke an AoO Sense Motive Ranks 4: Gain DR equal to 1/3 character level 9: As an AoO, you deal a sloth strike Fort Save DC = 10+ 1/2 ranks + Str mod (round down) they are under the effects of a slow spell for 1d4 round 14: As an AoO you deal a dazing strike Fort Save DC = 10+ 1/2 ranks + Str mod (round down) they are dazed for 1 round. 19: As an AoO you deal a nauseating strike Fort Save DC = 10+ 1/2 ranks + Str mod (round down) they are nauseated for 1 round. If skills can be broken simply by min-maxing, then someone will eventually find a way to break it so that by level one, they are all ready a master. All of the power and none of the wisdom (/character development). Umm... it would be kind of hard to break this since it is based of ranks in a skill.
RoyalBlueEyes 04-24-08, 09:05 AM	Um...no it doesn't it only favors those who have the skill as a class skill. Umm... it would be kind of hard to break this since it is based of ranks in a skill. You're forgetting one minor thing: He who placeth all skill points into few skills is good at nothing else. As for your example: when it comes to levels, Bards, Wizards, and Sorcerers will be casting Slow as soon as a character following your example can do it as an AoO if they put max ranks into Sense Motive. The only difference is that if you give the character combat expertise and a wide enough playground filled with baddies, they could theoretically cleave through a battlefield making AoO. Spellcasters can only cast it once per round, though it will last much longer; it will still require them to get a feat to cast it on more than one, if memory serves me correct. Your guy could invite his whole monk family to kick the crap out of him, and he'd still emerge out on top. So you'd have a whole lot of Rogue knowing a little Iron Monkey style, just for the Hell of it? But of course they could also spot, search, listen, know ten different languages, and be a jack of all trades. The only feats they'd need would be IUS and CE. Fighters on the other hand would only be able to put max ranks in Iron Monkey, and maybe be able to Jump. Sound fair to you? If as progressive feats, a fighter would be a little too preoccupied getting other necessary feats to make him a viable Fighter, Iron Monkey Feats would be relegated to the same place as for everyone else: level bonus feats. But I know little in the way of balance, so then what would I know?:rolleyes:
Leress 04-24-08, 06:28 PM	You're forgetting one minor thing: He who placeth all skill points into few skills is good at nothing else. No, I didn't forget about that. Most skills don't really matter at higher levels anyway. As for your example: when it comes to levels, Bards, Wizards, and Sorcerers will be casting Slow as soon as a character following your example can do it as an AoO if they put max ranks into Sense Motive. The only difference is that if you give the character combat expertise and a wide enough playground filled with baddies, they could theoretically cleave through a battlefield making AoO. They could have also cast sleep and end the battle right then, your point. Ranged attackers show up and you can't use it until you are in melee with them. Spellcasters can only cast it once per round, though it will last much longer; it will still require them to get a feat to cast it on more than one, if memory serves me correct. The slow spell hit multiple targets. Slow Transmutation Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Targets: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart Duration: 1 round/level Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes An affected creature moves and attacks at a drastically slowed rate. A slowed creature can take only a single move action or standard action each turn, but not both (nor may it take full-round actions). Additionally, it takes a -1 penalty on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves. A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for decreased speed. Multiple slow effects don’t stack. Slow counters and dispels haste. Material Component A drop of molasses. Your guy could invite his whole monk family to kick the crap out of him, and he'd still emerge out on top. Umm, they would still do damage to him if they hit and if they are higher level they would still take him out. So you'd have a whole lot of Rogue knowing a little Iron Monkey style, just for the Hell of it? Why not, if they take the feat and invest the points then yes. But of course they could also spot, search, listen, know ten different languages, and be a jack of all trades. The only feats they'd need would be IUS and CE. Your point, rogues have a lot of skill points, if they want to put feats into it then they should get it. Fighters on the other hand would only be able to put max ranks in Iron Monkey, and maybe be able to Jump. Sound fair to you? Well the fighter should get more skills and skill points, but that is another topic. If as progressive feats, a fighter would be a little too preoccupied getting other necessary feats to make him a viable Fighter, Iron Monkey Feats would be relegated to the same place as for everyone else: level bonus feats. Or it could just be made into a feat that is based off of BAB instead of a skill Iron Monkey Style [Combat] Benefit: Opponents that attacks you in melee provoke an AoO BAB 1: Gain DR equal to 1/3 character level 6: As an AoO, you deal a sloth strike Fort Save DC = 10+ 1/2 BAB + Str mod (round down) they are under the effects of a slow spell for 1d4 round 11: As an AoO you deal a dazing strike Fort Save DC = 10+ 1/2 BAB + Str mod (round down) they are dazed for 1 round. 16: As an AoO you deal a nauseating strike Fort Save DC = 10+ 1/2 BAB + Str mod (round down) they are nauseated for 1 round. But I know little in the way of balance, so then what would I know?:rolleyes: ...
Nathreet 04-24-08, 07:02 PM	Martial artist, NPC class: skills: balance, jump, tumble, commoner skills skill points: 4 + int unarmed strike & flurry: as monk, must be unarmored and shieldless to use BAB: as monk (medium) saves: good fort, good reflex, bad will weapon proficiency: any 2 monk weapons or simple weapons armor proficiency: none other monk abilities: none
RoyalBlueEyes 04-24-08, 08:53 PM	Fighter is the most base and basic of classes, supposedly lots of feats and skill points weren't balanced, so fighters got the lowest of the low. Again, another topic, but when basing MAs off of skills, you have to concede to the fighter as he is (suposedly) supposed to be able to do anything in the way of specialized combat. Slow Topic: I was reading from d20srd.org this morning, so it either wasn't on there or I overlooked it entirely. Monk Family Reunion: Even if the Martial Artist's family was higher level and had better scores, going into Total Defense would still allow the monk to make AoOs while having a high AC. And that little bit would probably save him a lot of punishment. Clarifying the Rogue Skill Statement: When I asked if you thought "Rogue should..." I meant, "Should all rogues be masters of the Iron Monkey style?" And to add on to that, wouldn't that then mean anyone with decent ranks in Sense Motive would then be a martial artist? Iron Monkey Feat: Setting Iron Monkey as a scaling feat...the idea of scaling feats just never seemed right to me, and here's why: Feats represent just that: Feats of skill, strength, mastery, and whatnot. They represent an expenditure of time and effort training. If you take a scaling feat over feats like Weapon Focus (,Greater), you're pretty much saying that the one feat is more valuable then every other feat. Even Stunning Fist requires a feat, IIRC, to do things other then stun. Scaling feats would only work if every feat were scaling. If you got ITWF,GTWF, and PTWF without having to spend three feats. But they don't. So scaling feats are very questionable, imho.
CaptKillern 04-25-08, 01:47 AM	Going along with what Leress said... I like the idea of the abilities unlocking off of skill points as all classes would have the same ability to learn at the same speed... If it was based of BAB then it would still only be the fighter taking it. Now fighters do get less skill points...so how about the following feats... First make the skill "Martial arts" a cross class skill for everyone... Indepth Training Prereq:Unarmed strike Martial arts is now a class skill Notes: fighter can take indepth training as a bonuse feat Skilled teacher Prereq: Indepth training Gain 2 ranks in the skill Martial arts for every skill point spent. You are still bound by the maximum ranks per level Notes: a fighter can take indepth training as a bonus feat... Overall, no matter what, a fighter will have an advantage against a non fighter in combat... Even if the rogue has more ranks in martial arts he still has lower bab, still has lower hitpoints and the fighter probably has other feats (weapon specialization, weapon mastery, etc... that makes him still superior... My only wish is that Even though I am playing OA it doesnt feel like it... If the wizard busts out his Crane style before fireballing people, or the guy who caught the thief picking his pockets suddently has to face a trained master of 12 drunken fairies style kungfu, then I think it would add some flavor... Is the thief going to be able to use his kungfu to defeat Maximum Bob the fighter in full plate with tower shield and bastard sword... maybe, maybe not but i think it would make the game more interesting if he had a chance to try...
Leress 04-25-08, 03:38 AM	Fighter is the most base and basic of classes, supposedly lots of feats and skill points weren't balanced, so fighters got the lowest of the low. Again, another topic, but when basing MAs off of skills, you have to concede to the fighter as he is (suposedly) supposed to be able to do anything in the way of specialized combat. He is suppose to be but, the class itself doesn't even do that well. Slow Topic: I was reading from d20srd.org this morning, so it either wasn't on there or I overlooked it entirely. Okay Monk Family Reunion: Even if the Martial Artist's family was higher level and had better scores, going into Total Defense would still allow the monk to make AoOs while having a high AC. And that little bit would probably save him a lot of punishment. You can't do that... Total Defense You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can’t combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat (since both of those require you to declare an attack or full attack). You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense. Clarifying the Rogue Skill Statement: When I asked if you thought "Rogue should..." I meant, "Should all rogues be masters of the Iron Monkey style?" And to add on to that, wouldn't that then mean anyone with decent ranks in Sense Motive would then be a martial artist? If the person took the feat "Iron Monkey Style" and invested the skill points then yes they should. If using the one based off of BAB then they couldn't reach the higher abilities until much later (off course so would the monk) Iron Monkey Feat: Setting Iron Monkey as a scaling feat...the idea of scaling feats just never seemed right to me, and here's why: Feats represent just that: Feats of skill, strength, mastery, and whatnot. They represent an expenditure of time and effort training. If you take a scaling feat over feats like Weapon Focus (,Greater), you're pretty much saying that the one feat is more valuable then every other feat. Even Stunning Fist requires a feat, IIRC, to do things other then stun. That is happening now, really how does weapon focus compare to Silent spell, or power attack to Dodge? You average character get only abou 7 feat in their career getting a feat "that make you hit a little better" is just insulting. Scaling feats would only work if every feat were scaling. If you got ITWF,GTWF, and PTWF without having to spend three feats. But they don't. So scaling feats are very questionable, imho. Yeah, they should all scale and the twf chain is plain bad (it gets worse as you go further up the chain) If a feat is suppose to be equal to a class ability then "+1 to hit with one weapon" isn't going to cut it.
Kalis Atrud 04-25-08, 02:02 PM	I really see Superior(Supreme) unarmed strike as being a master of martial arts. It is more mastery than just about anybody living today or in the past century aside from maybe Mas Oyama. Things like improved trip, improved grapple, and snap kick would add to it. Snap kick is like twf(for weapon and unarmed) only better as it takes only one feat and is usable anytime you make an attack with your primary weapon.
Leress 04-25-08, 02:12 PM	Going along with what Leress said... I like the idea of the abilities unlocking off of skill points as all classes would have the same ability to learn at the same speed... If it was based of BAB then it would still only be the fighter taking it. Now fighters do get less skill points...so how about the following feats... Most classes learn abilities at different speeds... First make the skill "Martial arts" a cross class skill for everyone... Okay Indepth Training Prereq:Unarmed strike Martial arts is now a class skill Notes: fighter can take indepth training as a bonuse feat Skilled teacher Prereq: Indepth training Gain 2 ranks in the skill Martial arts for every skill point spent. You are still bound by the maximum ranks per level Notes: a fighter can take indepth training as a bonus feat... So some one would have to burn through 2 or 3 feats just to have the ability to get spend some points to get the skill up... Overall, no matter what, a fighter will have an advantage against a non fighter in combat... Even if the rogue has more ranks in martial arts he still has lower bab, still has lower hitpoints and the fighter probably has other feats (weapon specialization, weapon mastery, etc... that makes him still superior... My only wish is that Even though I am playing OA it doesnt feel like it... If the wizard busts out his Crane style before fireballing people, or the guy who caught the thief picking his pockets suddently has to face a trained master of 12 drunken fairies style kungfu, then I think it would add some flavor... Is the thief going to be able to use his kungfu to defeat Maximum Bob the fighter in full plate with tower shield and bastard sword... maybe, maybe not but i think it would make the game more interesting if he had a chance to try... Except it completely bones the Monk (who has to use 2 of the 7 feats they get) who has lower BAB even if they have the same level of skill. The Fighter is already ahead at second level while a monk has to wait till 3rd.
CaptKillern 04-25-08, 05:08 PM	Most classes learn abilities at different speeds... Okay So some one would have to burn through 2 or 3 feats just to have the ability to get spend some points to get the skill up... Except it completely bones the Monk (who has to use 2 of the 7 feats they get) who has lower BAB even if they have the same level of skill. The Fighter is already ahead at second level while a monk has to wait till 3rd. The feats were basically just for the fighter to help overcome the low number of skill points... You could make it available as a monk bonus feat as well... Then he is only using 2 of his 10 feats... and as the monk already has the improved unarmed strike feat he has already met the requiements for the feat without using a feat... As far as the monk goes... he still has more skill points, does more damage and has flurry of blows... I dont think it would hurt the monk all that much, and as the moonk is the one who normally goes about unarmed it probably helps him more than others... Martial arts will help him in almost all of his combats where as the fighter would probably have a primary fighting style (2 handed sword, 2 weapon fighting or sowrd and shield) and uses martial arts as a back up... so it only helps him some of the time... if the fighter specializes in unarmed, then he should be good at it... he is a trained fighter... but he would still lack the flurry and the monks superior unarmed damage... Would it be better to limit Martial arts to light armor? Then the fighter has to either specialize or he will use MA as a back up.... then it swings back in favor of rogues and monks... but the fighter still has more feats to equalize the difference...
heretic888 04-26-08, 02:00 PM	Hi everyone, Honestly, I would recommend you guys take a look at Kenneth Hood's d20 Skills-n-Feats Martial Arts System. Basically, you take a feat to gain access to a new skill called Technique (which is a class skill only for Fighters, Monks, and Rogues). For every rank you put into Technique, you can pick up new mini-feats (called maneuvers), each with their own prerequisites, that allow you mimic real-life martial arts. There are also additional feats to supplement your use of the Technique skill. The system is balanced under the assumption that martial arts are relatively commonplace in the campaign world. It wouldn't be balanced if, say, one Fighter PC had ranks in Technique while another Fighter PC did not. Personally, though, I prefer the encounter-based maneuver system introduced with Tome of Battle. Plugging a maneuver progression into all the non-caster PCs and major NPCs in your campaign world would be a simple matter, would make them more balanced compared to casters, and would encourage truly cinematic and diverse combats. Alternatively, you could combine the two and use something like the Use the Force skill and the encounter-based force powers in Star Wars Saga Edition. Laterz.
curtis_ownby 04-26-08, 04:26 PM	Just mix ToB with OA and take a level or two of a spell caster. What I like to do is take 3 levels in monk, then take one level in Duskblade, then take two levels in fighter. Now take two level in swordsage. Now you only needed to have spent three feats to enter Dervish Pcr and non of them would have to have been your free feats. Now take three levels in Dervish and you can now enter The Blade Dancer Pcr. You have take at this point a lot of the feats needed for the Martial Arts Styles. You have a lot of thing that make a Martial Artist and to get to this point you did not need to use one of the feats that you get for character level. That means if you are human you have 6 feats to put where you want. You have a BAB of +8 at level 12 which is only one less than a monk would have. You have some spell casting ablity, maneuvers, and do not forget all of the class ablities that you have. You have not locked your self into any class as of yet. You have the feats: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, and Weapon Focus. Plus any of the other 6 or 7 feats you picked. You do not need a new system for martial arts, you just need to learn how to do it.:smirk: What is it you wish for your character to be able to do? Ki blast? Look in PHB2. Jump to the top of a roof? What I just gave you will do it and more. Go hand to hand with almost any weapon? It can do that as well. It does take 5 books to make yes, but it can do a lot. Are you looking for a Dragon Ball Z character? Then you will need to be around level 40 plus. I short learn to use what is in rule already before adding to it. For it could already be there! :teach:
Kineon_War 04-30-08, 01:50 AM	What I do is this: Let everyone who wants to be able to do the following from the old AD & D O D &D martial arts rules: Hurl Flying Kick Pain Touch Instant Stand Leap Imbolizing Hold Yeah, I know it's already non-realistic but I figure that the players are heroes so let them do it (and occasionally throw in badies who can do the same). Simplify grapple, trip, disarm and bullrush to opposed strength/ grapple check and forget about the rest of the rules with this because they are long-winded and boring. Let each player make up 1 or 2 martial arts moves that are unique to them. But make sure that any benefit is balanced by a skill check, or penalty for failure or something. Tell your players that if they role-play the kung-fu with cool desriptions rather than just rolling dice, you'll think about giving them +1, +2 or up to +4 circumstance bonuses. If the players roll criticals, let them describe something cool happening (or roll for it on a table you make up). Kung-fu is more fun when you role-play it rather than roll-play it.
heretic888 04-30-08, 10:55 AM	Tell your players that if they role-play the kung-fu with cool desriptions rather than just rolling dice, you'll think about giving them +1, +2 or up to +4 circumstance bonuses. If the players roll criticals, let them describe something cool happening (or roll for it on a table you make up). Kung-fu is more fun when you role-play it rather than roll-play it. Hi Kineon_War, Perhaps so, but good roleplaying is no justification for boring mechanics. That's why I'm such a proponent of Tome of Battle. It provides balanced mechanics for fancy combat tricks while still making every combat interesting and different. Laterz.
Kineon_War 05-01-08, 04:09 AM	Although I own TOB and have read it, I have never implemented it into a campaign. This has been mostly because of my laziness. So I'll take your word for it making every combat interesting and different. However, I think my Monkey King games are far from boring. I let my players make up 2 or 3 of their own unique kung-fu style techniques. And I have provided some of my own like: Monkey Steals the Peach; Monkey Vomits the Fruit; and Step Back and Repel Monkey, all based on real martial arts moves. I've just recently flipped over to the M20 system though and am enjoying it. It is fully compatable with D20 but much, much more simple. I find the lack of rules actually aids the role-playing and although I know it is not for everyone, prefer to not slow my games down with hours of looking through books for obscure references. Hi Kineon_War, Perhaps so, but good roleplaying is no justification for boring mechanics. That's why I'm such a proponent of Tome of Battle. It provides balanced mechanics for fancy combat tricks while still making every combat interesting and different. Laterz.
LordEricDeLong 05-20-08, 11:39 PM	Please don't remind me of that cheesy movie...it almost follows Warriors of Virtue scene for scene...:rant: ANYWAY...horrible Boston accents and stereotypical teenaged nerd obsessions with asian girls aside: Martial Arts feats shouldn't be something that everyone can do. Or else they would. As for The Forbidden Kingdom's cast; EVERYONE who was a main character, had a name, and ACTUALLY FOUGHT knew KungFu. This is easily explained by the fact that Jackie Chan's character was a Warrior/Scholar, Jet Li's was , and Sparrow (the biwa player) trained to fight and kill the Jade Warlord. All of the Jade Warlord's troops were part of the military, thusly they knew Kung Fu. As for Martial Arts Styles: Look in the Oriental Adventures book and the Oriental Adventures Rokugan Supplement: The Way of the Open Hand. They are presented as feats, yes, but also keep in mind, if you aren't focusing on punching, kicking, and tumbling in the air like a madman each and everyday as you do with your sword, you aren't doing anything. I take Jujutsu and Karate and unless I'm putting as much effort into them as I do in Iaido, I am not going to be even partial good at them. Back to game mechanics: I'll tell you why treating martial arts like skills is bad at the end of this. Improved Unarmed Strike is the be all end all feat for any basics in Martial Arts. You learn how to hit, you learn how to hit HARD! As hard as a gauntlet. That's some power there. Improved Grapple is for soft forms (think Jujutsu), you learn how to successfully deal with an opponent who grapples you or you have grappled. Taking them down is all you need to do to force them into your own terms. Stunning Fist is a hard hit to the pressure points. And then Open Hand has unarmed and weapon styles which have various styles for each and a little history you can twist and change to your campaigns desire. And now I'll answer why: Feats are expensive, I agree, but there is a reason very few skills have ever had a damaging combat use, and even then, quite limited in their design. If skills can be broken simply by min-maxing, then someone will eventually find a way to break it so that by level one, they are all ready a master. All of the power and none of the wisdom (/character development). You want to be a martial artist? Dip into Fighter, Monk. or Inkyo. From a roleplaying standpoint, is anyone going to see that you have a little monk or fighter in you? No. You want to be like that kid and do Kung Fu? By the end of the movie, he probably was a Commoner 1/Monk 3. Now, I'm not going to point you in the direction of Order of the Stick and make you read up on Miko Miyazaki being a Samurai of the Paladin Class (since I firmly believe Samurai should be its own class), but this falls along the same lines. Martial discipline takes levels of experience to be able to smash monsters faces in. You can Fu-Man-Chu your way to martial arts mastery simply by putting skill points in like money into Chun-Kuk-Do...-I mean Power Kix...-I mean quarters in a gumdrop machine. (Yes, I do hate those daycares immensely. Martial Arts is not "Insert Money, Take Belt") all i hear is blah blah blah wonk wonk wonk wonk Forbidden Kingdom was bad azz
KorgothThePrist 05-21-08, 12:32 PM	Forbidden kingdom was cool. it wasnt the greatest but it was cool. *Uses Click pow on KungFu Master* You may know your Super ninja arts but i have the power of ClickPow! And you will never find mez! that or if you do find me. then your wasteing way to much resources over someone not even trying to hide.