Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sleepwalker13666 06-11-07, 04:02 AM	(Authors Note: This class was not meant to be a historical representation of Geisha, it is meant to fulfill a larger role than a simple hostess or entertainer, it is represented with some bard abilities, some healer and some assassin.) The Geisha is trained performer, gifted in several different skills and abilities. These women have a special place in society, and a Geisha's abilities often make her a welcome addition anywhere. While most Geisha are simple hostesses and performers (well represented with the expert class), there are some Geisha of exceptional skill and trained for "special" purposes. These "advance" geisha are rarely known to the "common" geisha of the house, only the matron truly knows their secret missions. These Geisha, though of an advanced training, continue to hold their title and occasional dabble in their base profession, but as with any actor, once the curtain falls a new face can be put on and another role be fulfilled. Adventures: Geisha have many abilities suited to adventuring, Geisha schools occasionally allow their talents to benefit noble and royal society, as well as adventuring parties that can be trusted not to allow their students demise. Geisha are often used as spies, manipulators and assassins. Some use their talents as bodyguards, while others take the path of a healer, a Geisha's role is her choice. Abilities: A Geisha is most reliant on her charisma, as many of her abilities depend on it. Geisha use charisma for their spells, geisha are also wise to have a good dexterity and constitution. Alignment: Geisha must start off as any Lawful alignment, they are trained under strict discipline, a Geisha once released from her school may later adopt a new alignment, however most schools feel a geisha's actions reflect the schools and may seek revenge against one that has shamed their image. Religion: Most Geisha prefer philosophy over gods, though some will worship gods of beauty and art. Some trained for darker purposes may choose to instead worship gods of assassins. Races: Humans are the most common, though hengeoykai and spirit folk are not unheard of. Males are rare among geisha, and are usually dressed and expected to act as women. Other Classes: A Geisha rarely has trouble finding her place in an adventuring party, they can serve as rogues and healers with ease, much like the bard. Hit Dice: 1d6 Weapon/Armor Proficiencies: Geisha are proficient in kachi san (war fans), butoh-gasa (war umbrella), fuki-mi-bari (mouth darts), darts, shruiken, daggers, garotte and unarmed strike. Geisha are proficient in no armor but may use tessen and butoh-gasa. Skills Per Level:6+Int mod x4 lv.1, 6+In mod lv.2+ Class Skills: Appraise (int), Balance (dex), Bluff (cha), Concentration (con), Craft (int), Diplomacy (cha), Disguise (cha), Escape Artist (dex), Forgery (int), Gather Information (cha), Heal (wis), Hide (dex), Intimidate (int), Knowledge: Local (int) Knowledge: Planes (or shadowlands) (int) Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty (int), Move Silent (dex), Perform (cha), Profession (wis), Sense Motive (wis), Sleight of Hand (dex), Spellcraft (int), and Tumble (dex). Starting Gold:4d4x10 Lv_B.A.B._Fort_Refl_Will_Special 01)_+0____+0___+2___+2___Rumors, Art of Massage 02)_+1____+0___+3___+3___Alchemical Training 03)_+2____+1___+3___+3___Inspiring Performance (+1), Unarmored Defense +1 04)_+3____+1___+4___+4___Remove Disease/Taint 1x week 05)_+3____+1___+4___+4___Untouchable, Higher Learning 06)_+4____+2___+5___+5___Pressure Points 07)_+5____+2___+5___+5___Legendary beauty (+2), Unarmored Defense +2 08)_+6____+2___+6___+6___Inspiring Performance (+2) 09)_+6____+3___+6___+6___Remove Disease/Taint 2x week 10)_+7____+3___+7___+7___Unarmored Defense +3 11)_+8____+3___+7___+7___Legendary Beauty (+4) 12)_+9____+4___+8___+8___Higher Learning 13)_+9____+4___+8___+8___Inspiring Performance (+3) 14)_+10___+4___+9___+9___Remove Disease/Taint 3x week, Unarmored Defense +4 15)_+11___+5___+9___+9___ 16)_+12___+5___+10__+10__Flawless Beauty 17)_+12___+5___+10__+10__Legendary Beauty (+6) 18)_+13___+6___+11__+11__Unarmored defense +5 19)_+14___+6___+11__+11__Inspiring Performance (+4), Higher Learning 20)_+15___+6___+12__+12__Remove Disease/Taint 4x week Spells Per Day LV___0___1___2___3___4___5___6 01)__2___-___-___-___-___-___- 02)__3___0___-___-___-___-___- 03)__3___1___-___-___-___-___- 04)__3___2___0___-___-___-___- 05)__3___3___1___-___-___-___- 06)__3___3___2___-___-___-___- 07)__3___3___2___0___-___-___- 08)__3___3___3___1___-___-___- 09)__3___3___3___2___-___-___- 10)__3___3___3___2___0___-___- 11)__3___3___3___3___1___-___- 12)__3___3___3___3___2___-___- 13)__3___3___3___3___2___0___- 14)__4___3___3___3___3___1___- 15)__4___4___3___3___3___2___- 16)__4___4___4___3___3___2___0 17)__4___4___4___4___3___3___1 18)__4___4___4___4___4___3___2 19)__4___4___4___4___4___4___3 20)__4___4___4___4___4___4___4 Rumors: Geisha are exposed to many parts of the world and it's cultures, as well as it's dirty little secrets. A Geisha can make a special check to remember a bit of information she may have picked up that is relevant to her current situation. The check is made using the Geisha's level plusher intelligence modifier, success is determined by the following chart: DC___Type of knowledge 10___Common, known by at least a significant majority. 20___Uncommon, known by only a few people in the are. 25___Obscure, known by few, hard to come by. 30___Extremely Obscure, known only be select few, possibly those who don't understand the significance of the information. Art of Massage: When casting a healing spell the Geisha can as a move action add her intelligence modifier to the amount of damage healed. If a geisha has more than one class with access to healing spells she can only affect her Geisha healing spells with this ability. Spellcasting: A geisha can cast a limited number of spells per day. A Geisha cast spells by storing them in a focus such as an ofuda or origami totems. A Geisha can create a number of these per day based on her spells per day, however she cannot create extra. Once made, they can be drawn and used as a standard action, destroying the focus in the process. Focuses not used at the end of the day can be saved for later use, however until used they take up the Geisha's spells per day. The geisha may choose to release the power held within them and create new ones the following day. Regardless of how many are created it takes a geisha one hour a day to create her foci. A geisha uses her charisma modifier to determine spells Dcs, caster level checks and bonus spells. Spells known: 0th: Arcane Mark, Cure Minor Wounds, Dancing Lights, Daze, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Flare, Ghost sound, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Resistance, summon Instrument,Virtue. 1st: Cause fear, Change Self, Charm person, Command, Comprehend Language, Cure Light Wounds, Doom, Endure Elements, Hypnotism, Identify, Secret Signs, Silent Image, Sleep, Ventriloquism 2nd: Alter Self, Blindness/Deafness, Calm Emotions, Cure Moderate Wounds, Delay Poison, Detect Thoughts, Entrall, Invisibility, Locate Object, Minor Image, Protection from Charm, Scare, Whispering Wind 3rd: Bestow Curse, Clairvoyance/Clairaudiance, Create Food and Water, Discern Shapechanger, Dispel Magic, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Magic Circle Against Chaos/Law/Evil/Good, Major Image, Rage, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Suggestion, Tongues 4th: Charm monster, Crushing Despair, Discern Lies, Divination, Fear, Good Hope, Locate Creatures, Minor Creation, Neutraize Poison, Polymorph, Remove Curse, Scrying, Water to Poison 5th: Baleful Polymorph, Dominate Person, Dream, False Vision, Feeblemind, Greater Command, Major Creation, Mirage Arcana, Nightmare, Seeming, Sending, Servant Horde 6th: Animate Object, Eyebite, Find the Path, Geas/Guest, Greater Scrying, Hereo's Feast, Legend Lore, Mass Suggestion, Mislead, Repulsion, Shadow Image, Symbol of Persuasion, Tenser's Transformation, Transfix, True Seeing, Veil Alchemical Training: Through the study of medicinal herbs the Geisha is able to acquire knowledge, a good geisha learns to make healing balms, this functions as the brew potion feat except it that it can only be used to make healing potions (or balms). An evil geisha gains poison use and never risk accidentally poisoning herself when applying it. A geisha of a neutral alignment selects either healing balms or poison use, once selected may not be changed, even if her alignment changes. Inspiring Performance: The Geisha can inspire her allies through her performing arts. The Geisha may use an instrument, sing, perform katas or dance. If using song or instrument the allies must be able to hear her, if using a visual performance such as a kata she must be within her allies line of sight. Regardless of performance, the allies must be within 50 feet of her. While inspired they gain a bonus to attack and damage roles as well as saves. The geisha may perform an inspiring performance 1x day per geisha level and she may maintain it for 1 round per geisha level. The bonuses granted are competence bonuses and last for one round per round the geisha maintains the performance +3. Unarmored Defense: A Geisha is as graceful in combat as she is on stage, she is able to move about swiftly. So long as the Geisha is not flat-footed and not wearing armor, she gains a dodge bonus to Ac. At level 3 this bonus is +1 and increases by +1 every 4 levels thereafter. Remove Disease/Taint: The geisha can perform a special ritual to cleanse one of disease and supernatural taint. This ritual takes an hour to perform and requires 10 gp worth of incense and oils. The afflicted will be cured of any one disease or a number of taint points equal to the geisha's charisma modifier. Untouchable: The geisha gains a perfection bonus to Ac equal to her charisma score. Higher Learning: The geisha is able to learn a few personal spells, at level 5, 12 and 19, a good geisha may select a spell from the bards list, an evil geisha may select from the assassins list. A neutral geisha may select from either. Pressure Points: Through study of the human body the geisha has learned some of it's weak points. The geisha gains the stunning fist feats and may attempt it 1xday per level. The geisha may use a kachi san in place of an unarmed strive to use her pressure point ability. Legendary Beauty: the geisha gains an additional bonus to skill checks using charisma, except for use magic device. At level 7 this bonus is +2, and level 11 it increases to +4 and at level 18 increases to +6. Flawless Beauty: At 16th level the Geisha's beauty is immortalized, she no longer takes penalties to her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that she already has however remain in place. Bonuses still accrue and the Geisha still dies of old age when her time is up. New Items Heavy Kimono: A Heavy Kimono is not armor, and even those not proficient in armor such as a monk, can wear one. The heavy kimono is made of fewer layers than a traditional kimono, but they are woven of sturdier cloths, allowing more movement than a standard kimono and offering mild protection. Armor Bonus: +1 Max Dex: +6 Check Penalty: -1 Arcane Spell Failure: 5% Speed 30/20 Ft: 30/20 Weight: 10 lb. Butoh-Gasa: The Butoh-Gasa is a studier version of the Mai-Gasa (an umbrella traditionally used for stage performances). It is made with sturdier metals and cloths and can be used as a shield and weapon in battle. When used as a weapon it has the same statistics as a club, but can be used two handed. While wielding the butoh-gasa your are considered to have the shield bonus of a large wooden shield. The Butoh-Gasa is an exotic weapon. When enchanting a Butoh-Gasa, one may enchant it as a weapon, a shield or both, if enchanting it as both, both enchantments must be paid for separately. You might also like: Gypsy (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=13024940#post13024940) Nightshaper (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12835104#post12835104)
magestar 06-11-07, 10:22 AM	I like this very much. Very well done! And no, folks, they were not prostitues! :)
narukagami 06-11-07, 10:29 AM	:twitch: And no, folks, they were not prostitues! :) Nor were they ever magical assassin spies!!!!! People, get you literature straight. There was never any such thing as a geisha assassin in either Japanese History or Fantasy. The entire concept is a western misconception and misunderstanding of assassins/spies disguised as geisha/courtesans/entertainers. These people were not trained entertainers, they were trained spies/assassins, they were good at the art of disguise. I'm sorry if I'm jumping down your throat, I really am, but we've seen so many of these on the board its just... irritating.
Alyss 06-11-07, 11:07 AM	Yes. I think (as I've said elsewhere), that this class should be more like a bard and less like an assassin. Someone elsewhere has also quite rightly pointed out that a taboo about being touched doesn't give an AC bonus.
Alyss 06-11-07, 11:22 AM	And no, folks, they were not prostitues! :) They give their virginity away to the highest bidder, than shack up with some rich guy and get used as a concubine? AND THEY WERE NOT PROSTITUTES? Regardless, so what? Who cares whether they were or not? Or do you look down on 'normal' prostitutes?
The_Shaman 06-11-07, 11:30 AM	Yes. A prostitute routinely earns her income by having sex for money, and is by definition open to sex with any client. You yourself used the word concubine, which might be a much more accurate representation of that state. Except for the deflowering bit, I do not know of geisha "officially" having sex for money. AFAIK some had lovers, and often were sponsored by them, but as I said it was a) not a part of the service and b) afaik in almost all cases an exclusive relationship, similar to her having a lover. Hence I think it would be wrong to call it prostitution - unless you would extend prostitution to cover any case where one sexual partner somehow renumerates the other, in which case it might include, say, any marriage with a single breadwinner. Don't be alarmed, from my experience people take terms very seriously here. Watch what happens if someone uses the word "ninja" carelessly :P . And as far as society status is concerned, an escort with a lover (or even two) is very different from a common prostitute, especially in a class-based society.
Kalis Atrud 06-11-07, 12:42 PM	They may not have been prostitutes themselves, but the idea may have evolved from prostitution. Kind of like the intellectual brothel in Planescape Torment only more of an emotional thing. Also I believe I remember some poster stating that the earliest Geisha were boys/men.
Gwenfloor 06-11-07, 01:12 PM	Most real-world Geisha, in D&D terms, would be Experts. I would have picked Aristocrats, but their proficiency with all types of armor and weapons seems odd, as Geisha were never known to possess weapons and armor training.
Professorpain 06-11-07, 03:00 PM	People just need to relax a little on this one. I have made the point before that many people want to experience western misconceptions when they play in an asian campaign. Some people might prefer more historically accurate games, but most gamers find that boring. If you really want historical accuracy enroll in a history graduate program or get your Phd. Don't force us to to listen to your Saidian ramblings.
narukagami 06-11-07, 03:21 PM	People just need to relax a little on this one. I have made the point before that many people want to experience western misconceptions when they play in an asian campaign. Some people might prefer more historically accurate games, but most gamers find that boring. If you really want historical accuracy enroll in a history graduate program or get your Phd. No. The geisha assassin garbage goes far beyond the "this is fantasy I can do what I want" excuse. Its ignorance. Pure and simple. The geisha assassin garbage is equivalent to someone making a class with heavy armor specializations, full spellcasting, and free weapon focus, and calling it "Farmer" or "Baker". The Geisha is a specific profession with specific connotions related to it, like farmers, cooks, bakers, and smiths. Just because you are ignorant of what the profession entails doesn't give you free license to be silly about it. It is not an obscure concept, like what makes a warrior a warrior, its a very specific job title. The whole idea derives from when many western people see an Asian woman in makeup and pretty tradition clothing, the immediately think geisha. So when they see characters like the main character of Lady Snowblood, Mai Shiranui from Fatal Fury, and Setsuka from Soul Calibur, they for some reason attribute them as geisha, and because they are assassin-y type characters, well, you get the drift. This is just plain absurd. What reinforces the absurdity of the whole idea is that never, in any way, shape, or form, are any of these characters ever associated with Geisha in any way other than someone's horribly mistaken assumption. Thats what the issue here is, not some kind of attempt to enforce "historical accuracy" on others, but an attempt to quell ignorance of other people's cultures. Don't force us to to listen to your Saidian ramblings. Don't force us to ignore your ignorance.
Azzy 06-11-07, 03:27 PM	Except for the deflowering bit Which is also of dubious veracity, I might add.
Professorpain 06-11-07, 03:33 PM	No. The geisha assassin garbage goes far beyond the "this is fantasy I can do what I want" excuse. Its ignorance. Pure and simple. The geisha assassin garbage is equivalent to someone making a class with heavy armor specializations, full spellcasting, and free weapon focus, and calling it "Farmer" or "Baker". The Geisha is a specific profession with specific connotions related to it, like farmers, cooks, bakers, and smiths. Just because you are ignorant of what the profession entails doesn't give you free license to be silly about it. It is not an obscure concept, like what makes a warrior a warrior, its a very specific job title. The whole idea derives from when many western people see an Asian woman in makeup and pretty tradition clothing, the immediately think geisha. So when they see characters like the main character of Lady Snowblood, Mai Shiranui from Fatal Fury, and Setsuka from Soul Calibur, they for some reason attribute them as geisha, and because they are assassin-y type characters, well, you get the drift. This is just plain absurd. What reinforces the absurdity of the whole idea is that never, in any way, shape, or form, are any of these characters ever associated with Geisha in any way other than someone's horribly mistaken assumption. Thats what the issue here is, not some kind of attempt to enforce "historical accuracy" on others, but an attempt to quell ignorance of other people's cultures. Don't force us to ignore your ignorance. I do not consider myself an ignorant person( I have a Ph.D. in pain afterall).. I just realize that the purpose of D&D is entertainment. You are trying to elevate the game to something that it is not for most people. There is nothing wrong with drawing from pop culture to create a geisha or ninja class in D&D. Most people who play the game probably only know the Geisha from films or books like Shogun. By this standard the OPs idea is not that outrageous. Either way it is not as absurd as you make it out to be. He is not straying too far from what appears to be the popular conception of a geisha. I just don't understand why it upsets you so much. You are free to make your own historically accurate Geisha class. Just remember this is about having fun, and most people don't get too academic about fun. It is the same premise as one finds in movies like pirates of the caribean. I loved the movie, and would not have them change a thing. Yet I realize that the film is not an accurate historical portrayal of pirates. If it were, I probably would have been disappointed. But that is not what I went to see. I went to experience the popular myth of the pirate, not a documentary.
narukagami 06-11-07, 03:36 PM	I do not consider myself an ignorant person. I just realize that the purpose of D&D is entertainment. You are trying to elevate the game to something that it is not for most people. There is nothing wrong with drawing from pop culture to create a geisha or ninja class in D&D. Most people who play the game probably only know the Geisha from films or books like Shogun. By this standard the OPs idea is not that outrageous. It is the same premise as one finds in movies like pirates of the caribean. I loved the movie, and would not have them change a thing. Yet I realize that the film is not an accurate historical portrayal of pirates. If it were, I probably would have been disappointed. But therein is the problem, as I already said the geisha assassin concept isn't even a popculture icon, its a misunderstanding of a different popculture icon, that being the crafty kunoichi who disguises herself as a geisha to fullfill her mission. Its not only a misunderstanding of culture, its even a misunderstanding of popculture on top of that.
Professorpain 06-11-07, 03:42 PM	But therein is the problem, as I already said the geisha assassin concept isn't even a popculture icon, its a misunderstanding of a different popculture icon, that being the crafty kunoichi who disguises herself as a geisha to fullfill her mission. Its not only a misunderstanding of culture, its even a misunderstanding of popculture on top of that. Perhaps not pop culture (though I suspect in America there must be a few series, video games or books that do blend these two together), but it does seem to reflect the popular understanding of the geisha, and even if it does not, adding the assasin element just makes it more interesting and useful. Like I said, if you don't like his version just make your own.
The_Shaman 06-11-07, 04:24 PM	You know, this reminds me of one of my first heated arguments on this forum ;) Still, we could say that geisha assassins have just taken a level or ten in the assassin class ;) At least in 3.0+ there's this thing called free multiclassing, right? Or it could be a "geisha trickster" feat, kinda like the daring outlaw :P
Sleepwalker13666 06-11-07, 04:35 PM	I have also posted this class in the classes section, I've made some modifications to that one, and will update this one shortly. to address a point that seems to be causing some heat: I know that true, real life geisha where not trained as assassins (or if some where it was a very, very small majority) However this inspiration for this version of a geisha stems from non-historically correct anime. I probably should have clarified that seeing as how devoted the oriental adventures fans are. Most of the assassin skills I gave them where not actually meant to reflect assassin training rather knowledge they would have picked up from from their understanding of anatomy (like pressure points or dim mak) or through the study of medicines (how they got poison use). The assassin spells however are in fact assassin roots. When I get the chance I will go over everyones comments more closely and try to address everyones individual concerns.
The_Shaman 06-11-07, 04:46 PM	Where did you see that, anyway? I only remember such a theme from the Shogun: TW game. The only geisha assassin-ish character from manga or anime I know is Makie Tachibana from Blade of the Immortal, and she has a level or two in expert at most - the rest is probably fighter, rogue, and/or a PrC like Duelist (DMG), Dervish (CWar), or Blade Dancer (OA). Damn fine manga, that.
Sleepwalker13666 06-11-07, 04:52 PM	Where did you see that, anyway? I only remember such a theme from the Shogun: TW game. The only geisha assassin-ish character from manga or anime I know is Makie Tachibana from Blade of the Immortal, and she has a level or two in expert at most - the rest is probably fighter, rogue, and/or a PrC like Duelist (DMG), Dervish (CWar), or Blade Dancer (OA). Damn fine manga, that. Comics books mostly, I wish I could remember the name, the characters would have more accurately portrayed kabuki over geisha, but thats what they called themselves. ___ Also I changed the op with the updates I have made to it, I thank everyone for their feedback, even the negative, and appreciate your continued suggestions.
Nobunaga Oda 06-11-07, 05:01 PM	They give their virginity away to the highest bidder, than shack up with some rich guy and get used as a concubine? AND THEY WERE NOT PROSTITUTES? Regardless, so what? Who cares whether they were or not? Or do you look down on 'normal' prostitutes? You sir, watched that hollywood movie and though that everthing in there was true, am I correct here? There is many information about Geishas in the internet and on documentaries, even some really recent ones. I recommend you to take a look at them ;) . Where did you see that, anyway? I only remember such a theme from the Shogun: TW game. The only geisha assassin-ish character from manga or anime I know is Makie Tachibana from Blade of the Immortal, and she has a level or two in expert at most - the rest is probably fighter, rogue, and/or a PrC like Duelist (DMG), Dervish (CWar), or Blade Dancer (OA). Damn fine manga, that. I loved that manga so much.
Yanagita Kunio 06-11-07, 05:15 PM	- Lawful=/=disciplined. Given the very things you have the class doing--poisoning, assassinating--"lawful only" is a big straightjacket. - the CHA to AC should probably involve "while unarmored." Also, the explanation of how it works is weak sauce, especially since (1) the external locus of the explanation begs the questions of what happens to this bonus when you're outside of "some culture," and (2) Charisma has more to do with force of personality--Schopenauer WILL--than force of pretty. If the class already has both arcane abilities and rogue-ish skills, there's got to be a better way of describing this CF. - Also, survivability before level 5 is going to be rough--no armor, no AC-boost spells...basically DEX and a large shield. - Assassin spells may not necessarily be okay from level 1: as with some deferred-casting classes (Paladin) and PrCs with a limited-casting progression, the spell level takes into account the late initiation. You should probably check over the particular spells on that list. Also, lots of assassin spells optimize sneak attack, and are moot to a class without SA. - Stunning Fist [# = level/day] is pretty a big number, considering that the standard feat grants you uses on a [1:4 levels] ratio. On the other hand, by the book SF DCs are keyed off of Wisdom, which means the class is getting heavy into MAD (CFs keyed off all three mental stats and plus fairly good ranks in two physical). - Also, the class still needs to take Improved Unarmed Strike to not provoke AoO...which is pretty important, since two CFs require unarmed attacks. That, or there is really one viable weapon for effective use of class abilities. - Why does the Dim Mak save DC operate off of CHA, given that its an ability based on precise medical knowledge...aside from the mechanical advantage inherent in a CHA-heavy class? Summary: your class is having an mechanical identity crisis. You've got a jumble of rogue, bard, monk, and even cleric-esque abilities packed into one. Multiple Ability Dependence is in full effect; there's a slender thread of synergy going in the healing/support abilities, but that's about it. Stylistically, most of the CFs have a medical theme that makes little sense given the initial description of the Geisha skillset as a performer and social-skill monkey.
Sleepwalker13666 06-11-07, 05:30 PM	- Lawful=/=disciplined. Given the very things you have the class doing--poisoning, assassinating--"lawful only" is a big straightjacket. - the CHA to AC should probably involve "while unarmored." Also, the explanation of how it works is weak sauce, especially since (1) the external locus of the explanation begs the questions of what happens to this bonus when you're outside of "some culture," and (2) Charisma has more to do with force of personality--Schopenauer WILL--than force of pretty. If the class already has both arcane abilities and rogue-ish skills, there's got to be a better way of describing this CF. - Also, survivability before level 5 is going to be rough--no armor, no AC-boost spells...basically DEX and a large shield. - Assassin spells may not necessarily be okay from level 1: as with some deferred-casting classes (Paladin) and PrCs with a limited-casting progression, the spell level takes into account the late initiation. You should probably check over the particular spells on that list. Also, lots of assassin spells optimize sneak attack, and are moot to a class without SA. - Stunning Fist [# = level/day] is pretty a big number, considering that the standard feat grants you uses on a [1:4 levels] ratio. On the other hand, by the book SF DCs are keyed off of Wisdom, which means the class is getting heavy into MAD (CFs keyed off all three mental stats and plus fairly good ranks in two physical). - Also, the class still needs to take Improved Unarmed Strike to not provoke AoO...which is pretty important, since two CFs require unarmed attacks. That, or there is really one viable weapon for effective use of class abilities. - Why does the Dim Mak save DC operate off of CHA, given that its an ability based on precise medical knowledge...aside from the mechanical advantage inherent in a CHA-heavy class? Summary: your class is having an mechanical identity crisis. You've got a jumble of rogue, bard, monk, and even cleric-esque abilities packed into one. Multiple Ability Dependence is in full effect; there's a slender thread of synergy going in the healing/support abilities, but that's about it. Stylistically, most of the CFs have a medical theme that makes little sense given the initial description of the Geisha skillset as a performer and social-skill monkey. Thank you for your feedback, to address your points: 1) Assassination is the highest form of public service, I do not consider it a chaotic action, and I did give them the ability to change their alignments. 2) This has been a feature not to many people have been happy with, I will probably change it to an unarmored bonus like the monks. 3) Yep, play smart. 4) While some of the assassin spells will be unusable since they rely on class features this is not really an issue to me, I was thinking of only giving access to assassin spells to evil geisha, but I would need to figure out what to give the good aligned ones in place of them. 5) I gave them the same amount as monks, I felt it fitting for them. 6) They have unarmed strike listed in their weapon proficientcies. 7) Charisma was a mistake it has been changed to int. 8) It does need some work, fortunatly I have been getting a lot of feedback.
The_Shaman 06-11-07, 05:45 PM	"Assassination is the highest form of public service" That deserves sigging :D
Sleepwalker13666 06-12-07, 04:11 AM	"Assassination is the highest form of public service" That deserves sigging :D :D Cookie to the first person to say where that line came from.
The_Shaman 06-12-07, 05:37 AM	Ok, I admit, I looked it up. I don't even remember hearing about that movie. But it did remind me of the quote about the four boxes to be used in the defense of democracy - soap, ballot, jury and ammo, in this order.
Luis_Dragunov 06-12-07, 05:49 AM	Which is also of dubious veracity, I might add. Later on on the geisha tradition (about 17th, 18th century) the virginity of a geisha WAS for sale. Of course, it was a one-time deal and extremely expensive.
Alyss 06-12-07, 07:01 AM	"Assassination is the highest form of public service" That deserves sigging :D I will, I still don't have a sig and my campaign features an assassins guild that operates legally and polices the poor quarters. Furthermore: non-one has challenged the point I raised about normal prostitutes vs. geisha, and why the former is assumed 'lower' than the latter. Thus, I must conclude you admit defeat. Hiya!!!
WizO_Sith 06-12-07, 07:31 AM	:D Cookie to the first person to say where that line came from. Chun, "The Destroyer Series" and/or "Remo Williams: the adventure begins" Oh, and let's everybody lighten up, could we?
The_Shaman 06-12-07, 08:45 AM	I will, I still don't have a sig and my campaign features an assassins guild that operates legally and polices the poor quarters. Furthermore: non-one has challenged the point I raised about normal prostitutes vs. geisha, and why the former is assumed 'lower' than the latter. Thus, I must conclude you admit defeat. Hiya!!! Okay, okay, whatever rocks your boat.:rolleyes:
Yanagita Kunio 06-12-07, 11:25 AM	Um...what geisha were or were not hinged entirely on the okiya (geisha house) and the inclinations of the oka-san who held their contract...and the latter often had financial leverage over a geisha like a landowner over a sharecropper, since the okiya often shelled out for the expenses of training, dressing, and otherwise maintaining a geisha until she got sponsorship. Exalted, cultured, and desired didn't mean exempt from the cultural and legal chattelage of women that was part of Japanese tradition and jurisprudence until nigh-after WWI. However--in terms of functional definitions, geiko is training in performing arts and courtesy/etiquette, and geisha means "performance artist." Go back far enough in time, and the geiko tradition is associated with men (sort of like minstrels) as well as women. From a strictly mechanical standpoint, sex is not part of the acquired geiko skillset. Depending on the where and when and the relative avarice of the oka-san, a geisha might also act as an oiran--a relatively high-class prostitute/courtesan (there's a joke about obi-tying in here somewhere, but I'm not the one to make it). Notably, though, during the Tokugawa it was illegal to hold both a prostitution license and a geisha license...but it happened enough for the term "double-licensed" to be in the period vernacular. From a gritty-realism-about-human-nature standpoint, I'd say that in the past the geisha skillset and the oiran skillset were kind of peanut butter and chocolate--both entertained men of status and affluence, both sought financial sponsorship by a danna, both had a position as an exalted-yet-objectified unit of femininity. Semantically, though, a geisha is not an oiran any more than peanut butter is chocolate...and there actually are people who'd rather have one and not the other. --This presentation was brought to you by Yanagita's appreciation and study of ukiyo-e, including the Fusoku Sanjuniso (32 Aspects of Women) series of various artists--full appreciation of which require a nuanced understanding of the visual codes and cultural meaning to the various grading of prostitute present in Edo.--
Azzy 06-12-07, 11:28 AM	Later on on the geisha tradition (about 17th, 18th century) the virginity of a geisha WAS for sale. Of course, it was a one-time deal and extremely expensive. Please cite reference.
Azzy 06-12-07, 11:40 AM	Chun, "The Destroyer Series" and/or "Remo Williams: the adventure begins" Ah and here I thought it would be from the musical Assassins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassins_%28musical%29).
magestar 06-12-07, 11:52 AM	Folks, I am sorry my comment pulled this thread off-topic yesterday. Thread-jacking, if you will. :) For my part, this is a cool class and I intend on using it. Thank you.
heretic888 06-12-07, 01:16 PM	- Lawful=/=disciplined. Actually, that's exactly what Lawful means. Read the entry for Lawful Neutral in the PHB. Somebody that adheres to a personal code of behavior or the edicts of a tradition or discipline is as Lawful as they come. In fact, this is the basis for the Monk's alignment archetype. Being Lawful does not necessarily mean you adhere to the laws of the nation you occupy (in fact, I'd wager a LG paladin might find the rules of a LE tyrant to be rather despicable and not worth respecting). Now, personally, I don't think a Geisha class should have any alignment restriction nor do I think they should be some weird Bard/Assassin hybrid. And the high Reflex save? Can someone explain to me why a Geisha is better at dodging fireballs than a Fighter or Paladin?? And before someone starts chiming in with the "but, in pop-culture..." line, I don't buy it. I've seen my fair share manga, anime, movies, books, comics, cartoons, and what have you. The number of instances where "Geisha=Assassin" comes to mind can be numbered on, oh, three fingers. Still, in each of those cases, it is never intimated that all geisha were assassins, just that a particular character was. Besides, D&D is more about epic fantasy and mythos than "pop-culture" any day of the week. I can't think of any fantasy literature or legend that has geisha as spell-weaving assassins, but they may just be my ignorance showing.
Sleepwalker13666 06-12-07, 02:08 PM	Chun, "The Destroyer Series" and/or "Remo Williams: the adventure begins" Oh, and let's everybody lighten up, could we? Yep, heres your :cookie:
Sleepwalker13666 06-12-07, 02:11 PM	Folks, I am sorry my comment pulled this thread off-topic yesterday. Thread-jacking, if you will. :) For my part, this is a cool class and I intend on using it. Thank you. Thank you. Don't worry about slightly derailing this thread, it found it's way home.
Sleepwalker13666 06-12-07, 04:39 PM	I changed the Ac bonus gained from untouchable to a perfection bonus, hope this solves the problems with that.
Sleepwalker13666 06-12-07, 06:48 PM	:allalone: I realize that this class here does not accurately portray real world geisha, and the fault does fall on me for not mentioning that before hand, (I know to make sure to state that when I offer up my gypsy and witch write ups). That said however I don't feel that samurai with magical ancestral swords, fire slinging shugenja, or ninjas turning invisible and walking through walls is not very real world accurate either. Just a friendly observation there. If you wish to rake my ideas through the coals by all means, it at least lets me know what I'm doing wrong. I am more than willing to take suggestions or ideas and alter the original. For those of you who like my idea, thank you for your support and enjoy. But please don't flame the other posters, whether they be for or against my submissions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I am grateful for negative feedback just as much as I am the positive. I would hate to have a thread closed I started because then the wizos will be watching me. :hides: especially in the shower. :D
Azzy 06-12-07, 07:05 PM	Grow up, jerk. I'd like "Irony" for 2000, Alex.
tedopon 06-12-07, 08:02 PM	I'd like "Irony" for 2000, Alex. Yeah, I should have just ignored it, but it's like every thread here he has to enlighten everyone else. Don't the rest of you get sick of it, ever? I suppose not. Answer: Feeding the fire from a Troll on a forum by flaming a flamer.
narukagami 06-12-07, 08:37 PM	:allalone: I realize that this class here does not accurately portray real world geisha, and the fault does fall on me for not mentioning that before hand, (I know to make sure to state that when I offer up my gypsy and witch write ups). That said however I don't feel that samurai with magical ancestral swords, fire slinging shugenja, or ninjas turning invisible and walking through walls is not very real world accurate either. Just a friendly observation there. If you wish to rake my ideas through the coals by all means, it at least lets me know what I'm doing wrong. I am more than willing to take suggestions or ideas and alter the original. For those of you who like my idea, thank you for your support and enjoy. But please don't flame the other posters, whether they be for or against my submissions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I am grateful for negative feedback just as much as I am the positive. I would hate to have a thread closed I started because then the wizos will be watching me. :hides: especially in the shower. :D Perhaps it'd help if I make myself clearer. Also I apologize if my posts came across as snippy, that wasn't my intent. Now I didn't mean to come across as if I were bashing the class itself, its just the idea of geisha being trained as assassins. If your intent was to make a specialized class of assassin that works as a geisha also, then by all means go for it. I just request that people who want to make the aforementioned types of classes please consider that its not in the least accurate to the derivative culture, its popculture, or its mythology. If you had mentioned beforehand that it wasn't your intention to make it culturally accurate at all, I would have responded differently. Believe it or not, I have no problems with deviating from cultural or historical accuracy, as long as one is aware thats what they're doing, and especially makes others aware thats what they're doing. Your original class writeup, to me, sounded like you were trying to make a geisha class with real world concepts in mind, which would have totally missed the mark, were that the intent. Might I suggest possibly a name change? Something that suggests infiltration into high society? Maybe even a flavor text change to distinguish a "normal" geisha from this class? Not once have I ever intentionally forced historical accuracy on anyone, despite what people read into things on their own. I just point out a different viewpoint with the intent of preserving cultural accuracy. I'm sure if I posted up a campaign setting that takes place in a jungle where all the PCs are a race of cannibalistic, savage, dark skinned humans, who throw spears and wear only loincloths and made it based on African stereotypes I'd certainly get an earful. Why should the same thing happen with Asian cultures and go ignored? You don't have to listen to it, but this being a public forum I have as much the right to make that view heard as you have to disagree with it. If one is not mature enough to handle that, or can't recognize the difference, I'm sorry for you. In addition I don't use the word "ignorant" as an insult. I mean it as being "Uneducated in the fundamentals of a given art or branch of learning; lacking knowledge of a specific field".
Sleepwalker13666 06-12-07, 11:30 PM	Yeah, I should have just ignored it, but it's like every thread here he has to enlighten everyone else. Don't the rest of you get sick of it, ever? I suppose not. Answer: Feeding the fire from a Troll on a forum by flaming a flamer. Sometimes it's hard to ignore something that gets under your skin, I just wanted to mediate before it became a flame war. I do appreciate the support. :D Perhaps it'd help if I make myself clearer. Also I apologize if my posts came across as snippy, that wasn't my intent. Now I didn't mean to come across as if I were bashing the class itself, its just the idea of geisha being trained as assassins. If your intent was to make a specialized class of assassin that works as a geisha also, then by all means go for it. I just request that people who want to make the aforementioned types of classes please consider that its not in the least accurate to the derivative culture, its popculture, or its mythology. If you had mentioned beforehand that it wasn't your intention to make it culturally accurate at all, I would have responded differently. Believe it or not, I have no problems with deviating from cultural or historical accuracy, as long as one is aware thats what they're doing, and especially makes others aware thats what they're doing. Your original class writeup, to me, sounded like you were trying to make a geisha class with real world concepts in mind, which would have totally missed the mark, were that the intent. Might I suggest possibly a name change? Something that suggests infiltration into high society? Maybe even a flavor text change to distinguish a "normal" geisha from this class? Not once have I ever intentionally forced historical accuracy on anyone, despite what people read into things on their own. I just point out a different viewpoint with the intent of preserving cultural accuracy. I'm sure if I posted up a campaign setting that takes place in a jungle where all the PCs are a race of cannibalistic, savage, dark skinned humans, who throw spears and wear only loincloths and made it based on African stereotypes I'd certainly get an earful. Why should the same thing happen with Asian cultures and go ignored? You don't have to listen to it, but this being a public forum I have as much the right to make that view heard as you have to disagree with it. If one is not mature enough to handle that, or can't recognize the difference, I'm sorry for you. In addition I don't use the word "ignorant" as an insult. I mean it as being "Uneducated in the fundamentals of a given art or branch of learning; lacking knowledge of a specific field". I took no offense to your post, I realize there was a mix in representation, I am open for suggestions of other names if you have any in mind.
AkumaDaimyo 06-16-07, 07:02 PM	Geisha are not prostitutes. Sorry but no. They are under no obligation at all to have sex with a client. True they do sell their virginity off and get shacked up but gee, doesn't that sound a lot like something else? Marriage anyone? So your saying any woman who isn't a virign who gets married is a prostitute then by your logic. Look at how marriage works. You provide for me, give me a house to live in and work and I essentially give you sex and supposedly obey you, at least how it was done in the older days. There are a certain type of geisha called pillow geisha but they aren't seen as real geisha anyway and seem to pretty much be prostitutes masquerading as geisha. Geisha are NOT a adventuring class. Not in the slightest. They are experts. They don't get to go around fighting monsters and such. They are owned by teahouses, ect until someone can buy their contract. You really think their owner as it were is going to let their geisha go out with some "adventurers" on some dagerous mission which she might get killed, multilated or her virginity taken by another group member? Not happening. The geisha who kills people? Gee it's probably a ninja/assassin who knows enough about geisha to pass as one.
Azzy 06-16-07, 07:44 PM	On the whole, I think we've covered all the points herein, but I'd like to underline one point that keeps coming up" True they do sell their virginity off Would anyone care to verify this common claim from a scholarly or otherwise reliable, factual source (and, no, Memoirs of a Geisha certainly doesn't fall into either category)?
AkumaDaimyo 06-16-07, 09:10 PM	The movie wouldn't no but the book might. However that is not my source. My main source is called Geisha, by Liza Dalby who is in fact the ONLY non Japanese woman to become a geisha.
Sleepwalker13666 06-16-07, 09:30 PM	Geisha are not prostitutes. Sorry but no. They are under no obligation at all to have sex with a client. True they do sell their virginity off and get shacked up but gee, doesn't that sound a lot like something else? Marriage anyone? So your saying any woman who isn't a virign who gets married is a prostitute then by your logic. Look at how marriage works. You provide for me, give me a house to live in and work and I essentially give you sex and supposedly obey you, at least how it was done in the older days. There are a certain type of geisha called pillow geisha but they aren't seen as real geisha anyway and seem to pretty much be prostitutes masquerading as geisha. Geisha are NOT a adventuring class. Not in the slightest. They are experts. They don't get to go around fighting monsters and such. They are owned by teahouses, ect until someone can buy their contract. You really think their owner as it were is going to let their geisha go out with some "adventurers" on some dagerous mission which she might get killed, multilated or her virginity taken by another group member? Not happening. The geisha who kills people? Gee it's probably a ninja/assassin who knows enough about geisha to pass as one. An old issue of Dragon I have (issue #121) had a Geisha class, it mentions that a geisha prostitute is called a yujo or korobi geisha, these are not the common geisha (if they can be called that). As I have covered here, I was not going for historical accuracy, wasn't even trying. I'm open to suggestions of other names, but at this point historical accuracy holds no water.
AkumaDaimyo 06-16-07, 10:08 PM	There is already a class like this. It's called a Bard. Or a Rogue or a Ninja. Or multiclass them. A Ninja/Bard could be quite interesting.
Sleepwalker13666 06-16-07, 11:58 PM	There is already a class like this. It's called a Bard. Or a Rogue or a Ninja. Or multiclass them. A Ninja/Bard could be quite interesting. I'm sure they could, I played a ninja/courtier once and had a blast, but I am offering up an additional class that covers bard/rogue multiclassing abilities without actually having to multi. My class may or may not be appropriate for your game. I understand that, however I had explained that this class wasn't meant to be historically accurate, and at this point I'm only interested in debating is the flaws in the mechanics or design, not how well it portrays real world Geisha, because simply put: it doesn't.
AkumaDaimyo 06-17-07, 12:15 AM	But the real world Geisha kinda IS the flaws in your mechanics and design. You called it Geisha and then designed it to be more of a killer/mysical caster type than a entertainer. I think you might need to use a different name perhaps. The idea of the class mechanics is interesting though.
Azzy 06-17-07, 01:50 AM	The movie wouldn't no but the book might. No, it wouldn't. However that is not my source. My main source is called Geisha, by Liza Dalby who is in fact the ONLY non Japanese woman to become a geisha. Liza Dalby, on the other hand, is.
AkumaDaimyo 06-17-07, 01:57 AM	And WHY would the movie AND book not count? It's not as if they pulled facts about Geisha from their butts and shoved it into a shotgun and then fired it out and made a movie about it. The book writer did do research and has talked to Liza Darby after all.
Azzy 06-17-07, 04:37 AM	And WHY would the movie AND book not count? It's not as if they pulled facts about Geisha from their butts and shoved it into a shotgun and then fired it out and made a movie about it. The book writer did do research and has talked to Liza Darby after all. Because it's a work of fiction that, as a work of fiction, takes creative license with facts or ignores facts whole cloth when they're inconvenient to the story or to titillate the audience. It would be like citing the movie Gladiator as reference in a discussion about Imperial Rome or the gladiatorial circuses--you might find a few facts (say, the Emperor Comodus participated in some gladiatorial events), but when you remove the facts from the fiction you may find something entirely unrecognizable from how they were presented in the work of fiction. The same with the movie/graphic novel 300 in regards to the Battle of Thermopylae. Also note that while authors may talk to experts and do research, they also freely ignore the experts and research (take Apocalyptico, for instance).
Sleepwalker13666 06-17-07, 12:21 PM	But the real world Geisha kinda IS the flaws in your mechanics and design. You called it Geisha and then designed it to be more of a killer/mysical caster type than a entertainer. I think you might need to use a different name perhaps. The idea of the class mechanics is interesting though. The idea of the geisha as an assassin is a stereotype (albeit a flawed and misconceived one) that many people have heard of. This particular version was inspired by a comic. Despite that, few classes are actually good interpretations of their real world counterparts, bards, complete arcane ninjas, sohei, and knights, are just a few that immediately come to mind.
The_Shaman 06-18-07, 08:27 AM	Actually, I would think the archetype is more an assassin impersonating a geisha or being "under cover" as one. At least, this is the archetype I am familiar with.
Yanagita Kunio 06-18-07, 02:32 PM	A yujo is something different altogether from a geisha, not a type thereof. The former is a licensed prostitute--internal to the term yujo there are grades of distinction, the top of which include the mistaken-for-geisha oiran and the tayu. While I'm not going to upbraid the OP for doing a "fantasy geisha"--I've excoriated at least one other "killer geisha" class, and that was enough--I would point out that another problem with this concept is that it ultimately defeats itself: the principle of using disguise or habitue to approach espionage or assassination hinges on surprise. Gender expectations in and of itself is an element of this--another aspect is catching the target in a context where relaxation or sense of intimacy makes them let down their guard. If the skillset of "female artisan and hostess" is associated with the skillset "poisoner with killer pressure point techniques"--ie there are lots of people [more than a handful] running around with levels in this class within Fictive Setting X--then the entire premise of surprise is lost. "Killer geisha" tramping in and out of dungeons, assassinating evildoers, or otherwise earning recognition or infamy in the eyes of the public or the authorities--these things are going to bend the paradigm of "geisha" such that it's no longer an effective identity to assume to achieve surprise or inconspicuousness. To lay the scene in the han's castle: Samurai: Right, the paperwork's done for the day. I'm nipping off to the teahouse before going home to the wife. O-bangashira: No teahouse for you, unless you want me to be your kaishaku tomorrow morning. Samurai: Repeat that, sir? I think I had something crazy in my ear. O-bangashira: Daimyo's orders--stay away from teahouses. There's been a rash of unusual situations involving immaculately-coifed, primped women with their obis tied in the back. Samurai: You mean like the one that helped those bushi slay the oni a month ago? O-bangashira: Case in point. Haven't you noticed that about every one in three times we experience some kind of threat to the han, the group that resolves it coincidentally is accompanied by a woman with a fan, an umbrella, and a kimono with a fantastically high thread count? Samurai: Oh my...I guess I hadn't, considering how often the daimyo himself uses such women to gather information and strike at his enemies. O-bangshira: Well, it just occurred to him today that maybe he wasn't the only one hiring them. After all, his father did die in the middle of a massage. And his uncle during a tea party. And his other uncle during a sakura viewing that included a tea party. Samurai: And wasn't the former o-bangashira commanded to commit seppuku after losing secret documents at a teahouse? O-bangashira: *Sigh* Technically, Dad was found unconscious near a teahouse.... Covered with mysterious bruises...almost like someone beat him with a flute. Samurai: ...my elder brother died after a flute recital...of heart failure...at age seventeen! O-bangashira: Now that you mention it, wasn't that oni at a flute recital when it died...? Go wake the daimyo--this is big--we need to organize a squad and start confiscating all the flutes in the han. Also, detain any woman wearing an obi tied in back for questioning--and whatever you do, don't let them rub your shoulders!!
heretic888 06-18-07, 05:25 PM	To lay the scene in the han's castle: Samurai: Right, the paperwork's done for the day. I'm nipping off to the teahouse before going home to the wife. O-bangashira: No teahouse for you, unless you want me to be your kaishaku tomorrow morning. Samurai: Repeat that, sir? I think I had something crazy in my ear. O-bangashira: Daimyo's orders--stay away from teahouses. There's been a rash of unusual situations involving immaculately-coifed, primped women with their obis tied in the back. Samurai: You mean like the one that helped those bushi slay the oni a month ago? O-bangashira: Case in point. Haven't you noticed that about every one in three times we experience some kind of threat to the han, the group that resolves it coincidentally is accompanied by a woman with a fan, an umbrella, and a kimono with a fantastically high thread count? Samurai: Oh my...I guess I hadn't, considering how often the daimyo himself uses such women to gather information and strike at his enemies. O-bangshira: Well, it just occurred to him today that maybe he wasn't the only one hiring them. After all, his father did die in the middle of a massage. And his uncle during a tea party. And his other uncle during a sakura viewing that included a tea party. Samurai: And wasn't the former o-bangashira commanded to commit seppuku after losing secret documents at a teahouse? O-bangashira: *Sigh* Technically, Dad was found unconscious near a teahouse.... Covered with mysterious bruises...almost like someone beat him with a flute. Samurai: ...my elder brother died after a flute recital...of heart failure...at age seventeen! O-bangashira: Now that you mention it, wasn't that oni at a flute recital when it died...? Go wake the daimyo--this is big--we need to organize a squad and start confiscating all the flutes in the han. Also, detain any woman wearing an obi tied in back for questioning--and whatever you do, don't let them rub your shoulders!! Bravo, sir. Bravo.
Azzy 06-18-07, 05:41 PM	Right, I suppose I should actually make an on-topic post in response to the OP. Sleepwalker13666, I'm going to be critical, but I'm not trying to be insulting so please take this as for what it is.... Like many of the other posters, I think the concept of the "geisha-assassin" class is absurd. To me it's like creating a class entitled "Tailor" and making it a giant-killer specialist. There's nothing wrong with making a character who's a tailor and moonlights as a giant-killer (or a character that's a geisha who is also an assassin), but such a narrow concept doesn't justify building a class (especially a base class) around it (for multiple reasons). A base class should be based around a general concept and skill set (warrior, divine champion, spell caster, unarmed fighter, etc.), not (barring NPC classes like the aristocrat and commoner) around a profession (geisha, tailor, etc.) or social position (knight, samurai, etc.). Doing so creates an artificial limit on both the players and the profession/social position (what if a player wants to play a geisha character that isn't a martial artist-assassin or a tailor that has no interest in killing giants?). If you are going to make a narrow-themed concept into a class, it should be a prestige class--not a base class. I have a loathing for extraneous base classes (including official ones like the knight, swashbuckler, ninja, samurai--either, etc.). Most of these narrow-themed classes can be portrayed with either a single, existing base class, multiclassing between base classes or by adding one or more prestige classes to either of the first two options.
Sleepwalker13666 06-18-07, 06:08 PM	Right, I suppose I should actually make an on-topic post in response to the OP. Sleepwalker13666, I'm going to be critical, but I'm not trying to be insulting so please take this as for what it is.... Like many of the other posters, I think the concept of the "geisha-assassin" class is absurd. To me it's like creating a class entitled "Tailor" and making it a giant-killer specialist. There's nothing wrong with making a character who's a tailor and moonlights as a giant-killer (or a character that's a geisha who is also an assassin), but such a narrow concept doesn't justify building a class (especially a base class) around it (for multiple reasons). A base class should be based around a general concept and skill set (warrior, divine champion, spell caster, unarmed fighter, etc.), not (barring NPC classes like the aristocrat and commoner) around a profession (geisha, tailor, etc.) or social position (knight, samurai, etc.). Doing so creates an artificial limit on both the players and the profession/social position (what if a player wants to play a geisha character that isn't a martial artist-assassin or a tailor that has no interest in killing giants?). If you are going to make a narrow-themed concept into a class, it should be a prestige class--not a base class. I have a loathing for extraneous base classes (including official ones like the knight, swashbuckler, ninja, samurai--either, etc.). Most of these narrow-themed classes can be portrayed with either a single, existing base class, multiclassing between base classes or by adding one or more prestige classes to either of the first two options. No offense taken, it's open for criticism, the biggest problem I have encountered is the name, not the build, and I have stated I am open to suggestions for a new name. While this class can be built through uses of multi-classing and/or prestigious, I myself prefer large numbers of base classes, over multi-classing and prestige, and this was one of the classes I introduced for my homebrew game, and I've offered it up to the community, so by releasing it on these pages i am open to suggestions and changes for those who observe it (it may not change in my game, but thats my game, for example untouchable never changed for my game but did on the boards). Also another thing nobody has seemed to consider is this, not everyone at the geisha house would be trained like this, most would be experts/aristocrats, but still called geisha. (this also may be a fault of the description).
Sleepwalker13666 06-18-07, 06:15 PM	A yujo To lay the scene in the han's castle: Samurai: Right, the paperwork's done for the day. I'm nipping off to the teahouse before going home to the wife. O-bangashira: No teahouse for you, unless you want me to be your kaishaku tomorrow morning. Samurai: Repeat that, sir? I think I had something crazy in my ear. O-bangashira: Daimyo's orders--stay away from teahouses. There's been a rash of unusual situations involving immaculately-coifed, primped women with their obis tied in the back. Samurai: You mean like the one that helped those bushi slay the oni a month ago? O-bangashira: Case in point. Haven't you noticed that about every one in three times we experience some kind of threat to the han, the group that resolves it coincidentally is accompanied by a woman with a fan, an umbrella, and a kimono with a fantastically high thread count? Samurai: Oh my...I guess I hadn't, considering how often the daimyo himself uses such women to gather information and strike at his enemies. O-bangshira: Well, it just occurred to him today that maybe he wasn't the only one hiring them. After all, his father did die in the middle of a massage. And his uncle during a tea party. And his other uncle during a sakura viewing that included a tea party. Samurai: And wasn't the former o-bangashira commanded to commit seppuku after losing secret documents at a teahouse? O-bangashira: *Sigh* Technically, Dad was found unconscious near a teahouse.... Covered with mysterious bruises...almost like someone beat him with a flute. Samurai: ...my elder brother died after a flute recital...of heart failure...at age seventeen! O-bangashira: Now that you mention it, wasn't that oni at a flute recital when it died...? Go wake the daimyo--this is big--we need to organize a squad and start confiscating all the flutes in the han. Also, detain any woman wearing an obi tied in back for questioning--and whatever you do, don't let them rub your shoulders!! I can't help but laugh, an excellent point good sir, an excellent point. :D
Yanagita Kunio 06-18-07, 06:28 PM	I agree with Azzy that the concept is narrow such that a multiclass or a PrC would suffice--spurred off of a fusion of Bard and Rogue, or even Bard and Ninja, or Swordsage (I like the latter better)--would suffice. Indeed, the Complete Scoundrel's Cloaked Dancer is very much in the vein of a character that combines entrancing performance and lethal strikes (and is indeed accessible through Bard and Rogue). Really, the entire skillset of geiko could be represented in-game by ranks in Diplomacy, various Perform ()s, and maybe Knowledge (nobility). Also, like many profession-rooted tropes half the fun of building a "geisha" NPC (or even PC) is keeping the players guessing about what mechanics lie behind the societal position and the salient qualifications (artistic training). I feel the same way about "knights," "samurai," et cetera: these concepts are better as a loose net of associations into which distinctiveness and individual traits are cast. Sleepwalker -- I sincerely hope I haven't offended, as you're a very polite poster. While I am being critical, I'm really not trying to say anything mean about you.
Lu Baihu 06-19-07, 01:52 PM	Later on on the geisha tradition (about 17th, 18th century) the virginity of a geisha WAS for sale. Of course, it was a one-time deal and extremely expensive.:embarrass Courtesy of a geiko/maiko-obsessed significant other, quoting her... "From a western perspective, a geisha-in-training (called maiko in Kyoto) did have her virginity sold to a man who did pay an expensive fee for this privledge. However, that's not quite the way it was seen. A young maiko, usually around 14 or so by the time of her mizuage, was 'deflowered. The step of her losing her virginity was simply one part of growing up and becoming a woman. As one geisha said, interviewed by Lesley Downer, who spent some months with the geisha of Kyoto and others, the man *was not* paying for the privledge of performing the girl's mizuage. Rather, he was paying for the expense of her new kimono that she would start wearing and more advanced dance lessons, among other things nessessary to a young geisha's career. However, the practice of mizuage was banned in 1958. Now when a girl is changing her hairstyle it is not about mizuage but simply that the girl has advanced to the next stage of her career. For further information please read Lesley Downer's "Women of the Pleasure Quarters."" P.S. I am aware that Azzy asked for Luis_dragunov's source and that the thread has gone elsewhere, just wanted to put this out there.
Azzy 06-19-07, 02:03 PM	Thank you! I like sources, and direct quote from such sorces are even better. :)
Lu Baihu 06-19-07, 02:22 PM	For the book itself, here (http://www.amazon.com/Women-Pleasure-Quarters-Secret-History/dp/0767904907/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-5004419-5291940?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182276824&sr=8-1) it is on Amazon. My significant other also adds: "Well I'd like to make a slight correction in the sense that, the guy wasn't paying for the kimono she'd start wearing but rather what she already had. Okiya, where geiko and maiko live, put a lot of investment into a young girl and, as a direct quote:The first step toward recouping [the cost of everything] was mizuage...As well,The payment was not for deflowering her but to cover the cost of the debut; though for the young woman the distinction must have seemed academic. I myself would love to play a maiko or geiko in the RP world and in fact, do--but rarely. Without changing what maiko and geiko (geisha) really are, they are quite useless in the RP world beyond a night of fun and games and entertainment for your rich men who might be having one of his last good times before a big battle. The best way to include geiko and maiko into an RP is, simply, having them being spies as well as entertainers--however, this is also a contradiction. Geiko and maiko are famous for their secrecy. They do not speak of what goes on in ozashiki (the parties in tea houses)."
ZenZ 06-19-07, 11:27 PM	Isn't most of our current views of the geisha (both east and west) rather post WW2?
The_Shaman 06-20-07, 09:34 AM	Maybe... as opposed to what? The only difference that I know of is that after the war, US soldiers stationed in Japan often mistook the two, and that is how the geisha = prostitute thing either started or became mainstream.
ElIsRa 06-21-07, 09:05 AM	For the book itself, here (http://www.amazon.com/Women-Pleasure-Quarters-Secret-History/dp/0767904907/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-5004419-5291940?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182276824&sr=8-1) it is on Amazon. My significant other also adds: "Well I'd like to make a slight correction in the sense that, the guy wasn't paying for the kimono she'd start wearing but rather what she already had. Okiya, where geiko and maiko live, put a lot of investment into a young girl and, as a direct quote:As well, I myself would love to play a maiko or geiko in the RP world and in fact, do--but rarely. Without changing what maiko and geiko (geisha) really are, they are quite useless in the RP world beyond a night of fun and games and entertainment for your rich men who might be having one of his last good times before a big battle. The best way to include geiko and maiko into an RP is, simply, having them being spies as well as entertainers--however, this is also a contradiction. Geiko and maiko are famous for their secrecy. They do not speak of what goes on in ozashiki (the parties in tea houses)." I personally think that the Geisha presents a great number of RP oppertunities. That said, I don't like this class. I do not like it Sam-I-Am. It reminds me of the Courtier class in that it does a whole lot of nothing. Then again, that's just my point of view.
ZenZ 06-21-07, 01:39 PM	I think the Japanese saw the Geisha in one way the the post WW2 service man saw them another. Upon returning home popular culture took on the more "Americentric" view of the Geisha. Of course this is a historical theme placed in a fantasy game.
Sleepwalker13666 06-22-07, 04:47 AM	While I don't mind the "prostitute" debate, I would like to request that you all start a separate thread to debate on, I wouldn't want a wizo locking the thread for being off topic.
Azzy 06-23-07, 03:32 AM	For the book itself, here (http://www.amazon.com/Women-Pleasure-Quarters-Secret-History/dp/0767904907/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-5004419-5291940?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182276824&sr=8-1) it is on Amazon. My significant other also adds: "Well I'd like to make a slight correction in the sense that, the guy wasn't paying for the kimono she'd start wearing but rather what she already had. Okiya, where geiko and maiko live, put a lot of investment into a young girl and, as a direct quote:As well, Thank you again (and pass on some of that thanks to your SO). I myself would love to play a maiko or geiko in the RP world and in fact, do--but rarely. Without changing what maiko and geiko (geisha) really are, they are quite useless in the RP world beyond a night of fun and games and entertainment for your rich men who might be having one of his last good times before a big battle. The best way to include geiko and maiko into an RP is, simply, having them being spies as well as entertainers--however, this is also a contradiction. Geiko and maiko are famous for their secrecy. They do not speak of what goes on in ozashiki (the parties in tea houses)." As a DM, I could find many ways to accommodate a player wanting to play a geisha (or geiko, if you want to get all Kyoto on us ;) ). While it may be difficult for a character to maintain the profession while being an adventurer, it's not impossible (especially if the adventures are primarily urban). Because a geisha character could be of almost any class (including bards, rogues, clerics of deities of art, sorcerers, etc.) as long as the player is willing to take the pertinent skills and feats, the role the character could fill varies and doesn't have to be limited to espionage (although information gathering would likely come easy to her). As to why a geisha would become an adventurer in the first place.... Well, Bilbo Baggins (to use an analogy that most gamers will understand) never set out to be a "burglar" or lead a life of adventure--no, he was pretty dead set against such ghastly things. Sometimes fate, however, tends to veto a character's dearest wishes and dump them into events and situations that they would never have willingly got themselves into. On the other hand, some geisha may fall in love with the idea of adventure after entertaining one too many adventurers or itinerant samurai.
Leress 06-24-07, 02:11 AM	Let me start by saying this: I don't care about "historical or fantasy" accurate portrayal of Geisha. I am just looking at this class and seeing how works. (Authors Note: This class was not meant to be a historical representation of Geisha, it is meant to fulfill a larger role than a simple hostess or entertainer, it is represented with some bard abilities, some healer and some assassin.) The Geisha is trained performer, gifted in several different skills and abilities. These women have a special place in society, and a Geisha's abilities often make her a welcome addition anywhere. Adventures: Geisha have many abilities suited to adventuring, Geisha schools occasionally allow their talents to benefit noble and royal society, as well as adventuring parties that can be trusted not to allow their students demise. Geisha are often used as spies, manipulators and assassins. Some use their talents as bodyguards, while others take the path of a healer, a Geisha's role is her choice. Abilities: A Geisha is most reliant on her charisma, as many of her abilities depend on it. Geisha use intelligence for their spells, geisha are also wise to have a good dexterity and constitution. Alignment: Geisha must start off as any Lawful alignment, they are trained under strict discipline, a Geisha once released from her school may later adopt a new alignment, however most schools feel a geisha's actions reflect the schools and may seek revenge against one that has shamed their image. Religion: Most Geisha prefer philosophy over gods, though some will worship gods of beauty and art. Some trained for darker purposes may choose to instead worship gods of assassins. Races: Humans are the most common, though hengeoykai and spirit folk are not unheard of. Males are rare among geisha, and are usually dressed and expected to act as women. Other Classes: A Geisha rarely has trouble finding her place in an adventuring party, they can serve as rogues and healers with ease, much like the bard. I am keeping this in mind Hit Dice: 1d6 Okay Weapon/Armor Proficiencies: Geisha are proficient in kachi san (war fans), butoh-gasa (war umbrella), fuki-mi-bari (mouth darts), darts, shruiken, daggers, garotte and unarmed strike. Geisha are proficient in no armor but may use tessen and butoh-gasa. Okay, you better have a way to make up for not having armor to protect the geisha. Skills Per Level:6+Int mod x4 lv.1, 6+In mod lv.2+ Class Skills: Appraise (int), Balance (dex), Bluff (cha), Concentration (con), Craft (int), Diplomacy (cha), Disguise (cha), Escape Artist (dex), Forgery (int), Gather Information (cha), Heal (wis), Hide (dex), Intimidate (int), knowledge: Local (int) knowledge: planes (or shadowlands) (int) knowledge: Nobility and Royalty (int), Move Silent (dex), Perform (cha), Profession (wis), Sense Motive (wis), Sleight of Hand (dex), Spellcraft (int), and Tumble (dex). Okay Starting Gold:4d4x10 Lv__B.A.B._Fort__Refl__Will__Special 01)_+0____+0___+2___+2___Rumors, Art of Massage 02)_+1____+0___+3___+3___Poison Use 03)_+2____+1___+3___+3___Inspiring Performance (+1) 04)_+3____+1___+4___+4___Remove Disease/Taint 1x week 05)_+3____+1___+4___+4___Untouchable 06)_+4____+2___+5___+5___pressure Points 07)_+5____+2___+5___+5___Legendary beauty (+1) 08)_+6____+2___+6___+6___Inspiring Performance (+2) 09)_+6____+3___+6___+6___Remove Disease/Taint 2x week 10)_+7____+3___+7___+7___ 11)_+8____+3___+7___+7___Legendary Beauty (+2) 12)_+9____+4___+8___+8___ 13)_+9____+4___+8___+8___Inspiring Performance (+3) 14)_+10___+4___+9___+9___Remove Disease/Taint 3x week 15)_+11___+5___+9___+9___Dim Mak 16)_+12___+5___+10__+10__ 17)_+12___+5___+10__+10__Legendary Beauty (+3) 18)_+13___+6___+11__+11__ 19)_+14___+6___+11__+11__Inspiring Performance (+4) 20)_+15___+6___+12__+12__Remove Disease/Taint 4x week Spells Per Day LV___0___1___2___3___4___5___6 01)__2___-___-___-___-___-___- 02)__3___0___-___-___-___-___- 03)__3___1___-___-___-___-___- 04)__3___2___0___-___-___-___- 05)__3___3___1___-___-___-___- 06)__3___3___2___-___-___-___- 07)__3___3___2___0___-___-___- 08)__3___3___3___1___-___-___- 09)__3___3___3___2___-___-___- 10)__3___3___3___2___0___-___- 11)__3___3___3___3___1___-___- 12)__3___3___3___3___2___-___- 13)__3___3___3___3___2___0___- 14)__4___3___3___3___3___1___- 15)__4___4___3___3___3___2___- 16)__4___4___4___3___3___2___0 17)__4___4___4___4___3___3___1 18)__4___4___4___4___4___3___2 19)__4___4___4___4___4___4___3 20)__4___4___4___4___4___4___4 Okay, look good not much on there, but let's take a closer look. Rumors: Geisha are exposed to many parts of the world and it's cultures, as well as it's dirty little secrets. A Geisha can make a special check to remember a bit of information she may have picked up that is relevant to her current situation. The check is made using the Geisha's level plusher intelligence modifier, success is determined by the following chart: DC___Type of knowledge 10___Common, known by at least a significant majority. 20___Uncommon, known by only a few people in the are. 25___Obscure, known by few, hard to come by. 30___Extremely Obscure, known only be select few, possibly those who don't understand the significance of the information. Okay...makes sense Art of Massage: When casting a healing spell the Geisha can as a move action make a heal check Dc15 to add her intelligence modifier to the amount of damage healed. If a geisha has more than one class with access to healing spells she can only affect her Geisha healing spells with this ability. Why have a DC check? That just adds a pointless roll to the game, just add the bonus and be done with it. Spellcasting: A geisha can cast a limited number of spells per day, the geisha has access to all bard and assassin spells. A Geisha cast spells by storing them in a focus such as an ofuda or origami totems. Creating these requires a spellcraft check Dc 10+spell level, a cost 1 sp per spell level +1. A Geisha can create a number of these per day based on her spells per day, however she cannot create extra. Once made, they can be used as a standard action, destroying the focus in the process. Focuses not used at the end of the day can be saved for later use, however until used they take up the Geisha's spells per day. The geisha may choose to release the power held within them and create new ones the following day. Regardless of how many are created it takes a geisha one hour a day to create her foci. A geisha uses her intelligence modifier to determine spells Dcs, caster level checks and bonus spells. Why do you have to screw with the casting? Just let the Geisha cast normally. Maybe even spontaneously like a sorcerer, the Geisha has no armor use. Why make the Geisha every time they want to have a spell. You could have the Geisha meditate to get their spells if you don't like the spontaneous casting. Poison Use: The the study of medicinal herbs the Geisha is also learned in the use of poison and never accidentally risk poisoning herself when applying it. Okay, doesn't really matter since only a 5% chance but I see why Inspiring Performance: The Geisha can inspire her allies through her performing arts. The Geisha may use an instrument, sing, perform katas or dance. If using song or instrument the allies must be able to hear her, if using a visual performance such as a kata she must be within her allies line of sight. Regardless of performance, the allies must be within 50 feet of her. While inspired they gain a bonus to attack and damage roles as well as saves. The geisha may perform an inspiring performance 1x day per geisha level and she may maintain it for 1 round per geisha level. The bonuses granted are competence bonuses and last for one round per round the geisha maintains the performance +3. The bonuses gained from this are alright but these abilities should be label on what type they are (Su, Sp, Ex) Remove Disease/Taint: The geisha can perform a special ritual to cleanse one of disease and supernatural taint. This ritual takes an hour to perform and requires 10 gp worth of incense and oils. The afflicted will be cured of any one disease or a number of taint points equal to the geisha's charisma modifier. Okay fair enough Untouchable: The geisha gains a perfection bonus to Ac equal to her charisma score. Wait, so this is the only protection that the Geisha gets? This is nowhere near enough to help the Geisha not get hit with an attack. The Geisha has no armor use, so they may have a magical buckler but that is it. Pressure Points: Through study of the human body the geisha has learned some of it's weak points. The geisha gains the stunning fist feats and may attempt it 1xday per level. The geisha may use a kachi san in place of an unarmed strive to use her pressure point ability. This is the last thing this class needs an ability they must be in melee to use. You are most likely not going to hit and you don't have the ac to help if you don't stun Legendary Beauty: the geisha gains an additional bonus to skill checks using charisma. At level 7 this bonus is +1, and level 11 it increases to +2 and at level 18 increases to +3. Yes, because being cute make you better at using magical devices? The bonus this gives are too low anyway, which equals to getting skill focus 8 times. Dim Mak: The geisha's understanding of the bodies weak points has increased that she can perform the dreaded Dim Mak (one finger death). The Geisha must study her opponent for 3 rounds, after 3 rounds she makes a stunning fist attempt, if successful the target must make an additional fortitude save Dc 10 +1/2 the geisha's level + her intelligence modifier or die. Okay you added an effect that most likely won't trigger because you have avg Bab low strength because you need it for other attributes (like dex because of poor AC, Cha, Wis, Con for low hp) which will also provoke AoO if you do it unarmed. New Item Butoh-Gasa: The Butoh-Gasa is a studier version of the Mai-Gasa (an umbrella traditionally used for stage performances). It is made with sturdier metals and cloths and can be used as a shield and weapon in battle. When used as a weapon it has the same statistics as a club, but can be used two handed. While wielding the butoh-gasa your are considered to have the shield bonus of a large wooden shield. The Butoh-Gasa is an exotic weapon. Nice weapon The main problem with the class is it can't fight...period. The first level has no way to defend or attack (all you can really do is cast daze and hope for the best and you can only do that a few times). The first level of this class can't do anything for the party either. In later levels it doesn't much better you still have poor AC, MAD, no armor, your spells are nice (but you have pay for every casting) Some of the spells make no sense. It seems to be a mish mash of Bard, Healer, Assassin but it doesn't do any of their jobs right. You should look through the Beguiler. Look, before you can even start making a character class you have to have a firm idea of: [list] How it fits into a four person party such that they win more often and better while that character is around. How it faces opposition of its level such that it accomplishes anything at all. How it is different from other classes. This class doesn't help the party, it definitely can't handle any thing level appropriate unless you use diplomacy cheese and it is not much different than a bard. This class needs a lot of work. Keep it up.
Sleepwalker13666 06-24-07, 02:40 AM	Let me start by saying this: I don't care about "historical or fantasy" accurate portrayal of Geisha. I am just looking at this class and seeing how works. I am keeping this in mind Okay Okay, you better have a way to make up for not having armor to protect the geisha. Okay Okay, look good not much on there, but let's take a closer look. Okay...makes sense Why have a DC check? That just adds a pointless roll to the game, just add the bonus and be done with it. Why do you have to screw with the casting? Just let the Geisha cast normally. Maybe even spontaneously like a sorcerer, the Geisha has no armor use. Why make the Geisha every time they want to have a spell. You could have the Geisha meditate to get their spells if you don't like the spontaneous casting. Okay, doesn't really matter since only a 5% chance but I see why The bonuses gained from this are alright but these abilities should be label on what type they are (Su, Sp, Ex) Okay fair enough Wait, so this is the only protection that the Geisha gets? This is nowhere near enough to help the Geisha not get hit with an attack. The Geisha has no armor use, so they may have a magical buckler but that is it. This is the last thing this class needs an ability they must be in melee to use. You are most likely not going to hit and you don't have the ac to help if you don't stun Yes, because being cute make you better at using magical devices? The bonus this gives are too low anyway, which equals to getting skill focus 8 times. Okay you added an effect that most likely won't trigger because you have avg Bab low strength because you need it for other attributes (like dex because of poor AC, Cha, Wis, Con for low hp) which will also provoke AoO if you do it unarmed. Nice weapon The main problem with the class is it can't fight...period. The first level has no way to defend or attack (all you can really do is cast daze and hope for the best and you can only do that a few times). The first level of this class can't do anything for the party either. In later levels it doesn't much better you still have poor AC, MAD, no armor, your spells are nice (but you have pay for every casting) Some of the spells make no sense. It seems to be a mish mash of Bard, Healer, Assassin but it doesn't do any of their jobs right. You should look through the Beguiler. Look, before you can even start making a character class you have to have a firm idea of: [list] How it fits into a four person party such that they win more often and better while that character is around. How it faces opposition of its level such that it accomplishes anything at all. How it is different from other classes. This class doesn't help the party, it definitely can't handle any thing level appropriate unless you use diplomacy cheese and it is not much different than a bard. This class needs a lot of work. Keep it up. First off let me say thanks, few people have actually taken the time to analyze the class features. I was thinking of giving them an unarmored bonus similar to a monks, however the thread sort of degenerated into these are not geisha and arguing about prostitution so I've taken a step back. The spellcasting focus was meant to be a thing of fluff, it doesn't take the geisha any longer to make her totem spells than a wizard spends memorizing his spells, it's just different than sticking your head in a book story wise. I have thought about dropping the sp cost. The UMD is a good point and I'll go ahead and errata that. I didn't think that stunning fist and dim mak would have trouble hitting because I gave the geisha the same attack bonus as a monk, which has both, the monk would most likely have a higher strength but the geisha would likely have a high dex and could always take weapon finesse. But overall, yes the class does need some work and I'm glad to see someone point out grievances with it's features.
Sleepwalker13666 06-24-07, 02:55 AM	Alright, revamped a couple of things, hopefully this helps out in making the class more playable. Gave the geisha an unarmored bonus as she levels. Changed spells to be dependent on charisma, hopefully cutting down on some of the M.A.D. Changed art of massage, no check but still a move action. Forgot I had a spellcraft check involved in crafted the foci, took that away as well as the cost for creating foci, simplifying that. errated legendary beauty to not affect U.M.D., also increased the bonuses to more significant numbers. lastly prettied it up, coded and bolded.
Leress 06-24-07, 05:38 PM	First off let me say thanks, few people have actually taken the time to analyze the class features. I was thinking of giving them an unarmored bonus similar to a monks, however the thread sort of degenerated into these are not geisha and arguing about prostitution so I've taken a step back. That still doesn't really solve the problem, that is just putting a bandage on gunshot wound. Adding more number still makes the Geisha static (and too low) in the AC department. The spellcasting focus was meant to be a thing of fluff, it doesn't take the geisha any longer to make her totem spells than a wizard spends memorizing his spells, it's just different than sticking your head in a book story wise. I have thought about dropping the sp cost. But he has to pulls those things out and that is a move action. So he can only perform spell (first drawing out the ofuda, which provoke AoO, and casting the spell standard action) and move 5ft. That isn't good if you don't have armor or spells that help. All you can really do is cast spells that others already have and summon monster that are most of time too weak. The UMD is a good point and I'll go ahead and errata that. I think this class may need UMD to make up for it's short comings. I didn't think that stunning fist and dim mak would have trouble hitting because I gave the geisha the same attack bonus as a monk, which has both, the monk would most likely have a higher strength but the geisha would likely have a high dex and could always take weapon finesse. That is why it is bad, you can't skirmish like a monk, your damage is not high, you have low AC, low hp, and you are doing an action that puts you in melee. But overall, yes the class does need some work and I'm glad to see someone point out grievances with it's features. At first level this class still cannot fight, it can't do anything I will show you a write of what I have in mind for this class.
Sleepwalker13666 06-24-07, 05:57 PM	But he has to pulls those things out and that is a move action. So he can only perform spell (first drawing out the ofuda, which provoke AoO, and casting the spell standard action) and move 5ft. That isn't good if you don't have armor or spells that help. I will show you a write of what I have in mind for this class. Well the shugenja in complete divine has his spells on ofudas and has to read them as part of the casting, but it doesn't state anything about having to spend an action to pull them out, so I didn't feel that the fluff needed game mechanics to get in the way. I thought of the foci as a material component, pulling it out is part of the casting time. I'll go ahead and clear that up though. And I look forward to seeing your idea.
The_Shaman 06-25-07, 12:37 PM	Hmm I think any spell with a material component - and any divine spell, iirc - needs the caster to produce some sort of symbol or material. I think this can be presumed to be incorporated in casting time.
Sleepwalker13666 06-25-07, 03:47 PM	Hmm I think any spell with a material component - and any divine spell, iirc - needs the caster to produce some sort of symbol or material. I think this can be presumed to be incorporated in casting time. Thats what I thought.
Leress 06-25-07, 05:29 PM	Hmm I think any spell with a material component - and any divine spell, iirc - needs the caster to produce some sort of symbol or material. I think this can be presumed to be incorporated in casting time. The thing is, this class stores spell in its foci so you must drawn to cast another spells since the focus is destroyed. Spellcasting: A geisha can cast a limited number of spells per day, the geisha has access to all bard and assassin spells. A Geisha cast spells by storing them in a focus such as an ofuda or origami totems. A Geisha can create a number of these per day based on her spells per day, however she cannot create extra. Once made, they can be drawn and used as a standard action, destroying the focus in the process. Focuses not used at the end of the day can be saved for later use, however until used they take up the Geisha's spells per day. The geisha may choose to release the power held within them and create new ones the following day. Regardless of how many are created it takes a geisha one hour a day to create her foci. A geisha uses her charisma modifier to determine spells Dcs, caster level checks and bonus spells. This class is making essentially items that store the spell for later use, there for they must be drawn to have the spell cast. The geisha doesn't wave his hands to cast the spell, he pulls out an ofuda and let's the spell fly. It is not part of spellcasting since it was created ahead of time. It is move action to draw a new one out and then a standard action to use it. Okay instead of writing one up I found a link to someone who pretty much made what I was going to make. http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=657&postnum=0&highlight=Bard This should be good enough, just change the flavoring a bit I suggest: Alignment: Non-Choatic Level 2 add: Spirit of Music (Sp) A Geisha is able to cast Summon Instrument, guidance,and ghost sound at will. The instrument summoned is now masterwork.
Sleepwalker13666 06-26-07, 04:01 AM	Well since the Shugenja doesn't have to draw his ofudas, I'm sticking with the geisha doesn't need to draw her focus, but I will take a look at your class when I get the chance.
Sleepwalker13666 06-26-07, 04:14 AM	Well after looking at the Bard, I have to say the problem is, well it's a bard, I gave the geisha some bard tricks, but she was'nt meant to be a bard. I know the geisha class isn't a master of any particular role as I have it presented, but she can fill in a niche when necessary, kind of like a factotum, but less varied.
Leress 06-26-07, 07:13 AM	Well after looking at the Bard, I have to say the problem is, well it's a bard, I gave the geisha some bard tricks, but she was'nt meant to be a bard. I know the geisha class isn't a master of any particular role as I have it presented, but she can fill in a niche when necessary, kind of like a factotum, but less varied. Okay, the factotum isn't that good to begin with (unless you count the abusive stuff you can do with it). The thing is, it can't do any of the roles you presented at all. At first can it do? At 5th level? Rumors like Bardic Knowledge doesn't really do anything for you (that is what skills are for) Art of Massage doesn't really help (it adds a couple of points of healing) which get less and less important as you go up in levels since foes do a lot more damage Unarmored defense give out too little too late, the casters have higher ac than you because they are casting shield or mage armor or both. The other classes are wearing armor that give larger bonuses than that. Removing Disease and Taint only once a week is bad since it is more likely that multiple characters will have disease at the same time. Untouchable is reasonable enough but it still doesn't make this class able to survive combat. Dim mak you have to wait enter melee then hope the stunning fist attempt works (but it is based on wisdom) and then hope for the next save to happen (based off of intellegence) Inspiring Performance is nice since it give a competence bonus. Breakdown The Assassin- Assassin spells, Stunning fist (with more time per day than a monk), Dim mak The Healer - Bard casting, Art of the Message The Bard- Bard casting, Rumors, Inspiring Performance. Basically this is a Bard with an Assassin spell list and a level of Healer.
Acedykstra 06-27-07, 02:12 AM	What ever happened to just keeping the Geisha as a profession, not a class? You could hire yourself out as a Geisha in your spare time, and still be trained to fill any nitch needed for an adventuring party... That is just the easiest way I see to do it.
Sleepwalker13666 06-27-07, 02:49 AM	What ever happened to just keeping the Geisha as a profession, not a class? You could hire yourself out as a Geisha in your spare time, and still be trained to fill any nitch needed for an adventuring party... That is just the easiest way I see to do it. This was a class i made for a member of my group, I thought I would share it with the community. Our group hasn't had any problems, but that doesn't mean there isn't flaws with the design. On a side note, I wish my Witch of the Poison Apple would get this much attention, I'm surprised this thread has had over 1,000 views in the time it's been up here.
Kevin Andrew Murphy 06-27-07, 04:46 AM	Speaking of Witches, what about if, instead of the Bard/Assassin spell list, the Geisha got the underused Witch spell list? There's a whole lot of charm, healing and minor illusion, all of which are good, as well as an occasional surprise.
Sleepwalker13666 06-27-07, 05:55 AM	Speaking of Witches, what about if, instead of the Bard/Assassin spell list, the Geisha got the underused Witch spell list? There's a whole lot of charm, healing and minor illusion, all of which are good, as well as an occasional surprise. That is actually an excellent idea good sir, I think I will go with that, I'll mix and match a few spells later, but for now I think it's a good patch. Thank you for your feedback. :D
Alyss 06-27-07, 09:14 AM	What ever happened to just keeping the Geisha as a profession, not a class? You could hire yourself out as a Geisha in your spare time, and still be trained to fill any nitch needed for an adventuring party... That is just the easiest way I see to do it. In v. 2.0 it was explicitly stated not to create an assassin class, as an assassin is just a skilled hired killer. Regardless, v.3.0/3.5 went the right way and created the assassin prestige class, to much applause. Would you like to get rid of the assassin? Cause I would rather sow my ears to my balls. Creating classes/PrC around specific jobs is not a bad thing, especially if, like geisha, they have picked up popculture status. If there was manga about kickass bakers, I'm sure we'd make a class out of them. Actually, that's not a bad idea: The Crust-slinger, a PrC. As to the class itself: this is much better than the original. Congrats sleepwalker, this has got a lot more shape and focus, and feels like a proper class.:)
The_Shaman 06-27-07, 01:19 PM	In v. 2.0 it was explicitly stated not to create an assassin class, as an assassin is just a skilled hired killer. Regardless, v.3.0/3.5 went the right way and created the assassin prestige class, to much applause. Which is kinda weird, considering that the AD&D book has assassin as one of their very few base classes, and 2nd edition had quite a few kits :)
Hochiu 06-27-07, 01:25 PM	"To much applause"? Dozens of people I talk to are upset at the idea of the Assassin as a PrC specifically because it ushered in this whole "there needs to be a class/prestige class for EVERY POSSIBLE character concept EVER" trend that 3e has become known for. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of people playing what they want their characters to be, and I allow a lot in the way of prestige classes in my game, but it's just like...the term prestige class has become a misnomer now, I guess, since they're a dime a dozen.
Azzy 06-27-07, 02:05 PM	In v. 2.0 it was explicitly stated not to create an assassin class, as an assassin is just a skilled hired killer. Regardless, v.3.0/3.5 went the right way and created the assassin prestige class, to much applause. There was an assassin base class in 1st edition. 2nd ed motive was A) backlash from conservative groups and b) assassin-classed characters were difficult to integrate into a player party as their main ability didn't work well in the context of a dungeon crawl or other standard adventure format. Would you like to get rid of the assassin? Cause I would rather sow my ears to my balls. Creating classes/PrC around specific jobs is not a bad thing, especially if, like geisha, they have picked up popculture status. If there was manga about kickass bakers, I'm sure we'd make a class out of them. Actually, that's not a bad idea: The Crust-slinger, a PrC. Let's go back to what I said earlier in an earlier post: A base class should be based around a general concept and skill set (warrior, divine champion, spell caster, unarmed fighter, etc.), not (barring NPC classes like the aristocrat and commoner) around a profession (geisha, tailor, etc.) or social position (knight, samurai, etc.). Doing so creates an artificial limit on both the players and the profession/social position (what if a player wants to play a geisha character that isn't a martial artist-assassin or a tailor that has no interest in killing giants?). If you are going to make a narrow-themed concept into a class, it should be a prestige class--not a base class. I have a loathing for extraneous base classes (including official ones like the knight, swashbuckler, ninja, samurai--either, etc.). Most of these narrow-themed classes can be portrayed with either a single, existing base class, multiclassing between base classes or by adding one or more prestige classes to either of the first two options. Assassins, as a narrow-themed class works well as a prestige class. You'll notice it's just one take on the assassin theme, leaving room for other assassin-type PrCs. And you argument is kinda silly. Even in we had a baker "crust-slinger" pop culture trope to start from, an geisha-assassin would be more akin to making a base class baker that shoots lasers from its eyes and has nothing with the pop culture trope outside of the name.
Kevin Andrew Murphy 06-27-07, 03:14 PM	That is actually an excellent idea good sir, I think I will go with that, I'll mix and match a few spells later, but for now I think it's a good patch. Thank you for your feedback. :D You're entirely welcome. I just took a glance at the Witch list. From the look of things, pretty much all the non-geisha-like stuff is at 7-9th level, though unfortunately not getting that means that the geisha will miss out on antipathy/sympathy, which really would be useful for a geisha. I'd suggest for a bit more flavor add the following spells from the Wu Jen list from Complete Arcane as well: 0th: Message, Prestidigitation 1st: Secret Signs 2nd: Protection from Charm 3rd: Discern Shapechanger 4th: Water to Poison, Good Hope (remove Giant Vermin from the Witch list) 5th: Dominate Person, Servant Horde (remove Animal Growth from the Witch list) 6th: Symbol of Persuasion, Transfix, Veil (remove Find the Path, Control Weather from the Witch list) You can easily type these in by just finding the SRD witch list and swapping.
Sleepwalker13666 06-27-07, 03:55 PM	As to the class itself: this is much better than the original. Congrats sleepwalker, this has got a lot more shape and focus, and feels like a proper class.:) Thank you, feedback has helped shape it out. You're entirely welcome. I just took a glance at the Witch list. From the look of things, pretty much all the non-geisha-like stuff is at 7-9th level, though unfortunately not getting that means that the geisha will miss out on antipathy/sympathy, which really would be useful for a geisha. I'd suggest for a bit more flavor add the following spells from the Wu Jen list from Complete Arcane as well: 0th: Message, Prestidigitation 1st: Secret Signs 2nd: Protection from Charm 3rd: Discern Shapechanger 4th: Water to Poison, Good Hope (remove Giant Vermin from the Witch list) 5th: Dominate Person, Servant Horde (remove Animal Growth from the Witch list) 6th: Symbol of Persuasion, Transfix, Veil (remove Find the Path, Control Weather from the Witch list) You can easily type these in by just finding the SRD witch list and swapping. It shall be done.
Kevin Andrew Murphy 06-27-07, 04:32 PM	It shall be done. You've still got Control Weather and a couple of the others in. Also, a few typos. "Tongues" needs respelling. I'd suggest looking at a few other spell lists, especially Shugenja and Wu Jen and see if anything else fits. It's definitely a good looking class now.
thaX 06-28-07, 11:16 PM	There was an assassin base class in 1st edition. 2nd ed motive was A) backlash from conservative groups and b) assassin-classed characters were difficult to integrate into a player party as their main ability didn't work well in the context of a dungeon crawl or other standard adventure format. Assassins, as a narrow-themed class works well as a prestige class. You'll notice it's just one take on the assassin theme, leaving room for other assassin-type PrCs. I was literally dancing when the Assassin was stricken from the classes available for a PC in 2nd Ed. I like the fact that the current assassin is basically a Non Player Character class (because of the alignment restriction) in most campaigns. Assassins are not group players, they will not leave the city where they conduct their business to crawl around in dungeons or go about on a grand quest for the holy grail. Assassin's are simply not conductive for a group of people that are going to be spending a good amount of time together. I have never understood why anyone would want to play an assassin.
The_Shaman 06-29-07, 07:37 AM	I was literally dancing when the Assassin was stricken from the classes available for a PC in 2nd Ed. I like the fact that the current assassin is basically a Non Player Character class (because of the alignment restriction) in most campaigns. Assassins are not group players, they will not leave the city where they conduct their business to crawl around in dungeons or go about on a grand quest for the holy grail. Assassin's are simply not conductive for a group of people that are going to be spending a good amount of time together. Well, they were limited to evil alignments, and AD&D was rather, shall we say, hardcore in how alignments were represented:I think the CN=insane stereotype probably came from 1st edition, and evil alignments were almost unplayable in a party that had non-evils. Way more than now, imo, grognard as it might sound.It could be annoying for someone wanting to play the "unlikely/badass/dark hero" stereotype, which I think is quite popular today. OTOH, I guess this stimulated a relatively cohesive party with similarly-aligned characters. As for assassins leaving the city... why should characters leave the city anyway? You can have a lot happening in a Waterdeep-sized metropolis, or even a smaller town: from intrigue to combat (especially in the slums) to something similar to dungeon crawling (i.e. cleaning a cult hideout).
Sleepwalker13666 06-29-07, 05:09 PM	So what are everyones opinions on the new fluff? (Also small request, with the current "cool off" period, please do not start any threads about historical geisha, authenticity or prostitution, at least until the probationary period is up {7/13}, this class is still under construction and I really don't want to get it locked while I'm trying to collect feedback.)
Leress 06-29-07, 05:58 PM	quick question Why doesn't the Geisha have Summon Instrument as a spell?
Kyuketsukiouji 06-29-07, 08:04 PM	Call it a "Deadly Courtesan" or a "Karyukai Assassin", and forget the whole "Geisha" thing. This (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-718863) is a Geisha.
Azzy 06-29-07, 10:30 PM	So what are everyones opinions on the new fluff? A good start, but I'd like to see you go into a little more detail. While I'm amongst those that criticize the PHB2's class format as being a bit too much, I think that a class like this could benefit from a similarly expanded format. Why doesn't the Geisha have Summon Instrument as a spell? I agree that this would be a welcome addition. Call it a "Deadly Courtesan" or a "Karyukai Assassin", and forget the whole "Geisha" thing. You're treading a little to closely to the temporarily banned topic (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12902963&postcount=63). I don't want to see Sleepwalker13666's thread get closed.
Sleepwalker13666 06-29-07, 11:45 PM	A good start, but I'd like to see you go into a little more detail. While I'm amongst those that criticize the PHB2's class format as being a bit too much, I think that a class like this could benefit from a similarly expanded format. I agree that this would be a welcome addition. You're treading a little to closely to the temporarily banned topic (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12902963&postcount=63). I don't want to see Sleepwalker13666's thread get closed. I'll take a look at PHB II tonight and try to expand on it tomorrow, I'll go ahead and add summon instrument. Call it a "Deadly Courtesan" or a "Karyukai Assassin", and forget the whole "Geisha" thing. This (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-718863) is a Geisha. While I am open to name suggestions, but as Azzy mentioned,because of the probationary period for Geisha and Ninja this thread is walking on thin ice, it's very name is on the blacklist so for a little while all we can really discuss is mechanics. If anyone wishes to discuss this class on a delicate manner with me feel free to pm me.
Kevin Andrew Murphy 06-30-07, 01:06 AM	I think part of the trouble here is that everyone is trying to make the quintessential "geisha" for varying values of "quintessential." Following the rule of "I play what I like," I could easily make a character with ranks of both classes, or make a character with no ranks in either who nonetheless has people in whatever game-world I'm playing/running calling her a "geisha." No one argues that much about what makes a real "wizard" or 'mage," even though we have Guild Wizard of Waterdeep, Mage of the Arcane Order and countless other prestige classes that are all different takes on the same concept. If these were being published in a splat book, we could call them "Expert Geisha" and "Geisha of the Poisonous Toad" and everyone could debate the merits. Hell, in 1st edition, Bard was an incredibly high level PrC where you had to be a fighter and a druid and the kitchen sink before you could pick up an instrument. And illusionist was it's own class, rather than a sub-class of wizard. Now, as for what I like here, and what I think would be useful, I like the other class's inclusion of "timeless body" as an ability. It actually fits far better with the concept of an eternal beauty than it does with druids and monks. I also think, if we're going to have a "magic geisha," then "summon instrument" is pretty much a must-have spell. The "Use Poison" is something I think should be left off. Not because you can't have deadly assassin geishas, but because you should have the option of not having deadly assassin geishas, and anything that's a class feature is something folk get known for after a while. It would likely be more practical to make this a PrC or a class where a character could take a couple level dip into Assassin or Alchemist Savant if they really wanted to make poisons. Alternately you could flavor the magic up a bit more so that you have geishas brewing love potions and healing balms and only if they get really annoyed turning the talent to poisons. If they got "Brew Potion" alongside "Use Poison," not as many folk would be complaining. I think rather than the monk's Dim Mak, the geisha could do the Nymph's blinding/deadly beauty effect, though a limited number of times per day and doing it fully clothed. With maybe some earlier precursors, like the ability to dazzle with her beauty.
Sleepwalker13666 06-30-07, 03:01 AM	I think part of the trouble here is that everyone is trying to make the quintessential "geisha" for varying values of "quintessential." Following the rule of "I play what I like," I could easily make a character with ranks of both classes, or make a character with no ranks in either who nonetheless has people in whatever game-world I'm playing/running calling her a "geisha." No one argues that much about what makes a real "wizard" or 'mage," even though we have Guild Wizard of Waterdeep, Mage of the Arcane Order and countless other prestige classes that are all different takes on the same concept. If these were being published in a splat book, we could call them "Expert Geisha" and "Geisha of the Poisonous Toad" and everyone could debate the merits. Hell, in 1st edition, Bard was an incredibly high level PrC where you had to be a fighter and a druid and the kitchen sink before you could pick up an instrument. And illusionist was it's own class, rather than a sub-class of wizard. Now, as for what I like here, and what I think would be useful, I like the other class's inclusion of "timeless body" as an ability. It actually fits far better with the concept of an eternal beauty than it does with druids and monks. I also think, if we're going to have a "magic geisha," then "summon instrument" is pretty much a must-have spell. The "Use Poison" is something I think should be left off. Not because you can't have deadly assassin geishas, but because you should have the option of not having deadly assassin geishas, and anything that's a class feature is something folk get known for after a while. It would likely be more practical to make this a PrC or a class where a character could take a couple level dip into Assassin or Alchemist Savant if they really wanted to make poisons. Alternately you could flavor the magic up a bit more so that you have geisha's brewing love potions and healing balms and only if they get really annoyed turning the talent to poisons. If they got "Brew Potion" alongside "Use Poison," not as many folk would be complaining. I think rather than the monk's Dim Mak, the geisha could do the Nymph's blinding/deadly beauty effect, though a limited number of times per day and doing it fully clothed. With maybe some earlier precursors, like the ability to dazzle with her beauty. Timeless body is not a bad idea, though I think I different name would be in order, perhaps "Restless or Unending Beauty" (Open to suggestions) On the poison use suggestion, I was thinking of an alternative, perhaps giving the option of Evil Geisha get poison, good get brew potion, and neutral choose. Ditching Dim Mak may not be a bad idea either, I'll brainstorm on that for an alternative, and am open to suggestions, while the blinding beauty isn't a bad idea but I don't think it fits.
The_Shaman 06-30-07, 03:27 AM	I'll take a look at PHB II tonight and try to expand on it tomorrow, I'll go ahead and add summon instrument. While I am open to name suggestions, but as Azzy mentioned,because of the probationary period for Geisha and Ninja this thread is walking on thin ice, it's very name is on the blacklist so for a little while all we can really discuss is mechanics. If anyone wishes to discuss this class on a delicate manner with me feel free to pm me. It might be nifty if they have an advanced learning option, allowing them to get a few more spells from the bard list.
Kevin Andrew Murphy 06-30-07, 03:31 AM	Timeless body is not a bad idea, though I think I different name would be in order, perhaps "Restless or Unending Beauty" (Open to suggestions) On the poison use suggestion, I was thinking of an alternative, perhaps giving the option of Evil Geisha get poison, good get brew potion, and neutral choose. Ditching Dim Mak may not be a bad idea either, I'll brainstorm on that for an alternative, and am open to suggestions, while the blinding beauty isn't a bad idea but I don't think it fits. I'd only use a different name if there were a different mechanic. If it also restored elderly geishas to their prime, then I'd see a different name as being appropriate. With the good vs. evil with Brew Potion and Use Poison, the trouble is that Use Poison is a special class feature that's hard to get and Brew Potion is a feat that anyone can get by third level. Which means that evil and neutral geishas luck out since they can get both by spending a feat, while good geishas get a feat but not a nifty ability, even if it's one they wouldn't use. If you want balance, I'd suggest you give good geishas the paladin's immunity to disease, Divine Health, which means that the evil geishas can Use Poison all they like, but the good geishas will never succumb to mummy rot or even cold sores. Not that they have cold sores in D&D, but if they did, they wouldn't get them. And let everyone brew potions. As for ditching Dim Mak, usually PrCs get some amazing ability as the crowning jewel or turn into some variety of supernatural creature. Maybe geishas become fey or native outsiders or something, though I'll admit that doesn't quite fit either. They could get a permanent +2 CHA which wouldn't hurt, transcending earthly beauty.
Sleepwalker13666 06-30-07, 05:10 PM	It might be nifty if they have an advanced learning option, allowing them to get a few more spells from the bard list. I added higher learning at level 5, 12 and 19, a good or neutral geisha can select from the bards list, a neutral or evil can select from the assassins list. Also summon Instrument has been added to the spell list.
Leress 06-30-07, 08:12 PM	If you can find a copy of Quintessential temptress by Mongoose Publishing that has a lot of things that would help you in making this class.
Sleepwalker13666 07-30-07, 03:36 PM	I want to thank everyone for keeping this thread from getting locked during the probationary period. (Meant to do it sooner, but kept forgetting, bad me, bad me. :weep: ) So far I'm content with the current incarnation of the Geisha and am thankful for the communities help in polishing this class up. Thank you everyone for your time, criticisms, and suggestions.
Sleepwalker13666 09-15-07, 02:19 AM	:bump:
Leress 09-26-07, 04:13 AM	I will do a playtest of this and come back with result on how it faired.
Leress 09-28-07, 12:54 AM	Just finished my playtesting of this class and it doesn't really fair well. Sample character Sasha Roe Build: Geisha 10 HP:48 AC: 30 (Tc 22, FF 23) Init: +4 Saves: Fort +6, Ref +11, Will +9 Attack: +13/+8 (melee, Warfan 1d6 +1 x3) +12/+7 (ranged mwk suriken 1d2-1 x2) Feats: Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus (Con), Great Fortitude, Spell Focus (Illusion), Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) Stats: (used Elite Array) Str 8, Dex 18(16+gloves), Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 16 (14+cloak) Gear: +2 Warfan,+3 tessen, Ring of protection +2, Bracers of Armor +3, Cloak of Charisma +2, Gloves of Dex +2, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Boots of the Winterlands, 2,008gp Spells: 3/4/4/3/0 0: Flare x1, Resistance x2 1: Silent Image x2, Grease x2 (Advanced Learning) 2: Blind x2, Invis x1, Minor Image x1 3: Major Image x3 The gauntlet EL 10 A hallway full of traps a fire giant a young blue dragon a Bebilth a Vrock 2 Mind Flayers 2 Remorhaze 6 trolls Horde (12) shadows Now onto battle A room full of traps: Nothing much you can do...cast resistance and hope for the best. Probable Loss A Fire giant: You don't have spot or listen so he would most likely get initiative, your AC is high and if you are hit twice you die. You can cast blind but he will most likely save. Cast grease and use Images to shut him down. Probable Win A young Blue dragon:The dragon comes and shocks you to death or it comes down and fights you toe to toe. Either way you die. Definite loss A Bebilith: You are not getting past the DR, your spells won't really work and it full attacks you and you die. Definite loss A Vrock: Same as the Bebilith, just a little longer but the same result. Definite loss 2 Mind Flayers: If you can survive the mindblast than you can get them. Draw. 2 Remorhaze: they attack first, bite...grapple...burn...die. Definite loss 6 Trolls: Long drawn out, but you spell won't hold. Definite loss Horde (12) shadows: They can't touch you except on a natural 20, you can hold with Images and this time increase for each Image prepared. Draw Scorecard Almost Certain Victory: 0 Probable Victory: 1 Even Match: 2 Probable Loss: 1 Definite Loss: 5 This class doesn't really fair well against ones that are level appropriate. Now before anyone gets their knickers in twist all the Geisha had to do was shut the enemy down for a victory. This is not an optimized build. Also the war umbrella wasn't placed in here because enhancing it was weird does price as a weapon or shield? can you enhance the shield bonus and the attack or must they be done separately.
Kyuketsukiouji 10-03-07, 08:58 PM	I case you forgot to notice that little bit in the DMG, a CR X encounter is meant to be moderately difficult for 4 PC of level X. One PC should expect to be hamburger. Besides, a Geisha should not be a combat character at all in the first place!
Leress 10-05-07, 01:50 AM	I case you forgot to notice that little bit in the DMG, a CR X encounter is meant to be moderately difficult for 4 PC of level X. One PC should expect to be hamburger. Besides, a Geisha should not be a combat character at all in the first place! So 4 PCs should have a moderately difficult time with a PC of the same level but with less gear (due to wealth guidelines)? If you actually check the Encounter chart there is this weird thing that happens when the PC solo encounters equal to their CR...at level 9 it is all okay and then at 10th it skyrockets for no reason. Also, the dragon in the game is listed at CR 6, which is listed as challenging (50%) win rate. The shadows are cr 3 a piece a 10 level character should be able to swat them like flies. (And yes I know about the calculations for encounters about +2 per doubling of the monsters of same cr) One actually analize that and look at how it works instead of just taking it a face value. This class is expected to pull its weight in a party if it can't handle the challenges presented here how will it aid those in a party? If this class is part of a party they will most likely be in combat.
Sleepwalker13666 10-05-07, 05:19 PM	The buto gasa is enchanted seperatly as a shield and weapon, I'll go ahead and make note of that in it's description.
Kyuketsukiouji 10-08-07, 02:23 AM	This class is expected to pull its weight in a party if it can't handle the challenges presented here how will it aid those in a party? If this class is part of a party they will most likely be in combat. Ever tried playing a Healer? Killing things isn't the only thing people in a party do.
Leress 10-08-07, 05:12 PM	Ever tried playing a Healer? Killing things isn't the only thing people in a party do. Yes I have played a healer...but what does that have do with this class. Healing is not the wisest thing to do in combat. The geisha is more like a bard than anything. Since killing things is what gives the party xp, I think it safe to assume that this class will be in combat. Please read back on my playtest of the class and you will see that all the geisha has to do is disable the opponent (assuming the other characters will deal the final blows).
narukagami 10-08-07, 05:24 PM	Yes I have played a healer...but what does that have do with this class. Healing is not the wisest thing to do in combat. The geisha is more like a bard than anything. Which is why it should be tested on its contribution to a party, and not how it fairs alone on combat. Since killing things is what gives the party xp, No, sorry. Combat is only one way to gain XP. You don't have to be in a combat encounter at all to gain XP.
Leress 10-09-07, 03:50 PM	Which is why it should be tested on its contribution to a party, and not how it fairs alone on combat. Did you read what I typed...it seems like you are only pulling the bad parts out. The playtest had the condition if the geisha, disabled the target it was assumed that the characters would do thing finishing blow. No, sorry. Combat is only one way to gain XP. You don't have to be in a combat encounter at all to gain XP. *reads DMG* Hmmm... Story awards (optional), Noncombat Encounter (ad hoc), Mission Goals (optional), Roleplaying Rewards (optional), and there are a couple of varients. Combat is the standard way of giving the characters xp.
Hochiu 10-11-07, 03:36 PM	Did you read what I typed...it seems like you are only pulling the bad parts out. The playtest had the condition if the geisha, disabled the target it was assumed that the characters would do thing finishing blow. *reads DMG* Hmmm... Story awards (optional), Noncombat Encounter (ad hoc), Mission Goals (optional), Roleplaying Rewards (optional), and there are a couple of varients. Combat is the standard way of giving the characters xp. 1. You made no mention about the challenges you set the geisha up to. Was it a single character against all of the encounters, or in a party? Your lack of explanation heavily indicates that you ran a single geisha against those encounters. 2. Re: Experience points. You stated that, "Since killing things is what gives the party xp, I think it safe to assume that this class will be in combat." Narukagami said, "No, sorry. Combat is only one way to gain XP. You don't have to be in a combat encounter at all to gain XP." In this instance, no, its not safe to assume anything of the sort. The only thing that the DMG states in relation to the XP rules is that they have statted out rules for encounters, both of a combat ( vs. monster) and a non-combat. Nowhere does it say that story awards, roleplaying awards, mission goals are optional. All of these are ad hoc rules which, by their nature of BEING ad hoc, aren't covered under the combat encounter/level chart located on page 38. So no. Killing things is NOT the only way, nor is it hardly a standard way, to give a party experience points. Combat is an easy way because it is already calculated for you, and most Dms don't want to be bothered about complaining players who think they know the XP rules. These aren't variant rules. They're ad hoc/non-chart challenges that are up to each individual DM. So depending on YOUR game, combat may be the only way to gain experience, but in mine, you'd be lucky to fight a significant battle every once in a while.
Leress 10-11-07, 06:22 PM	1. You made no mention about the challenges you set the geisha up to. Was it a single character against all of the encounters, or in a party? Your lack of explanation heavily indicates that you ran a single geisha against those encounters. Yes I did please read it again. Yes the geisha is going at these classes alone but I added the caveat about only having to disable the target. 2. Re: Experience points. You stated that, "Since killing things is what gives the party xp, I think it safe to assume that this class will be in combat." Narukagami said, "No, sorry. Combat is only one way to gain XP. You don't have to be in a combat encounter at all to gain XP." In this instance, no, its not safe to assume anything of the sort. The only thing that the DMG states in relation to the XP rules is that they have statted out rules for encounters, both of a combat ( vs. monster) and a non-combat. Nowhere does it say that story awards, roleplaying awards, mission goals are optional. All of these are ad hoc rules which, by their nature of BEING ad hoc, aren't covered under the combat encounter/level chart located on page 38. So no. Killing things is NOT the only way, nor is it hardly a standard way, to give a party experience points. Combat is an easy way because it is already calculated for you, and most Dms don't want to be bothered about complaining players who think they know the XP rules. These aren't variant rules. They're ad hoc/non-chart challenges that are up to each individual DM. So depending on YOUR game, combat may be the only way to gain experience, but in mine, you'd be lucky to fight a significant battle every once in a while. My playtest was based off of standard dnd (because there are many ways of doing this, I myself do this) Now instead people getting in a tizzy about the way I playtested this class, they should give their critique on the geisha.
Hochiu 10-12-07, 03:23 PM	Yes I did please read it again. Yes the geisha is going at these classes alone but I added the caveat about only having to disable the target. My playtest was based off of standard dnd (because there are many ways of doing this, I myself do this) Now instead people getting in a tizzy about the way I playtested this class, they should give their critique on the geisha. It doesn't matter. You're missing the point, whether its intentional or not. Any single class is NOT expected to fare well against a challenge rating that you pitted it against. It doesn't matter about disabling the target or not. You simply cannot expect it. Because you intentionally pitted a single geisha against various challenges. I'll reiterate it: Challenge rating is defined as a reasonable challenge against a party of 4 characters, typically with the classes of rogue, fighter, cleric, and wizard. 4 characters of level 10 should have a fire giant be an applicable challenge rating for them, not a SINGLE level 10 character. Disabling a target is effectively ending the encounter, in most instances. You bypass it, you defeat the encounter. You set up the geisha for failure. Whether you intentionally did it or not, you performed a playtest that was incorrect in power/encounter level and an accurate judgement cannot be made based off of these tests. You should have titled your "gauntlet" The Slaughter with little to no hope of accurate victory. The reason why I'm "in a tizzy about how you playtested the class" is because you're trying to affect change to a class without playtesting it in a more proper way. To the OP, I say, ignore the outcome of this erronous and flawed playtest. We know the geisha isn't supposed to be going at encounters of this level alone. A proper playtest would have had at least another PC of equal level that the geisha could act as support for, which is what it was designed to do. After all, we wouldn't send the Rokugan Courtier out to do this alone, why should we expect the geisha to handle it? Hell, you wouldn't expect a bard to be able to handle this alone.
Sleepwalker13666 10-12-07, 04:17 PM	To the OP, I say, ignore the outcome of this erronous and flawed playtest. We know the geisha isn't supposed to be going at encounters of this level alone. A proper playtest would have had at least another PC of equal level that the geisha could act as support for, which is what it was designed to do. After all, we wouldn't send the Rokugan Courtier out to do this alone, why should we expect the geisha to handle it? Hell, you wouldn't expect a bard to be able to handle this alone. Leress has playtested this gauntlet for many custom classes, the geisha did about as well as I would have expected for that particular scenario. I am not offended by the results in any way. It reinforces the concept, the geisha is not meant to be a front line warrior, but like the bard and courtier gains it's strength by enhancing the party. If separated in a dungeon she is probably doomed, but the geisha isn't meant to be dungeon delving class, it does best in a heavy rp game. probably babbled a little that post. Basically, Leress thank you for your feedback, everyone thank you for your support but please don't give Leress heavy flak I respect his efforts, I am not discouraged by the results.
Count Arioch the 28th 10-12-07, 04:34 PM	It doesn't matter. You're missing the point, whether its intentional or not. Any single class is NOT expected to fare well against a challenge rating that you pitted it against. It doesn't matter about disabling the target or not. You simply cannot expect it. Because you intentionally pitted a single geisha against various challenges. I'll reiterate it: Challenge rating is defined as a reasonable challenge against a party of 4 characters, typically with the classes of rogue, fighter, cleric, and wizard. 4 characters of level 10 should have a fire giant be an applicable challenge rating for them, not a SINGLE level 10 character. So basically, you think that a single 10th level geisha should always lose to a 10th level geisha unless the first geisha had three more characters with her? Whether or not you meant to, that IS in fact what you are saying. A 10th level PC is CR 10. They should be equal to any CR 10 monster. Which means that a CR 10 PC should win against a CR 10 monster half the time, that's what CR 10 means.
Hochiu 10-12-07, 06:12 PM	So basically, you think that a single 10th level geisha should always lose to a 10th level geisha unless the first geisha had three more characters with her? Whether or not you meant to, that IS in fact what you are saying. A 10th level PC is CR 10. They should be equal to any CR 10 monster. Which means that a CR 10 PC should win against a CR 10 monster half the time, that's what CR 10 means. So, with that logic, explain then in the DMG where it states that two Orcs (War1s) are a suitable challenge for a "1st level party" (which is written as a party of 4 individuals, each 1st level) (pg. 36)? Or where it states that a "monster of CR 5 is an appropriate challenge for a group of four 5th-level characters (pg. 48)? So I ask you: How is a CR 10 geisha running "The Gauntlet" a suitable test of character optimization when its inherently flawed from the start because the entire challenge rating system was based around a party of 4 people? No. CR 10 means that it is a challenge that's mean to expend a set percentage (20%) of a 10th level (4 people) party's resources (spells, HP, magic items, etc.) in any one encounter. That's why its a challenge. With a single character, it is far more challenging, particularly when that single character is not combat oriented to begin with.
narukagami 10-12-07, 06:30 PM	A 10th level NPC does not need to worry about conserving resources for future encounters for the day, thus was considered more dangerous by the writers, as it can "go nova" with all available resources. Granted, the CR system in itself is inherently flawed.
Count Arioch the 28th 10-12-07, 06:41 PM	So, with that logic, explain then in the DMG where it states that two Orcs (War1s) are a suitable challenge for a "1st level party" (which is written as a party of 4 individuals, each 1st level) (pg. 36)? Or where it states that a "monster of CR 5 is an appropriate challenge for a group of four 5th-level characters (pg. 48)? You answered your own question here: No. CR 10 means that it is a challenge that's mean to expend a set percentage (20%) of a 10th level (4 people) party's resources (spells, HP, magic items, etc.) in any one encounter. The game is based around beating up parties that are 4 CR lower than you are and taking their stuff. I don't like it, and I certainly don't play like that, but it's the default by the rules. And not being a combat oriented class is irrelevant. A10th level bard can easily beat nearly any CR 10 encounter if he gains initiative by making a DC 40 diplomacy check, despite not being a "combat oriented character". If a level 10 geisha can't beat a level 10 monster half the time, the geisha is not CR 10, and therefore needs to be boosted until she is CR 10. Level 10 = CR 10. That's something you can't argue.
Hochiu 10-12-07, 07:30 PM	You answered your own question here: Apparently I didn't, because I still don't see how a CR 10 monster is a suitable challenge for a single Lvl 10 character when it specifically states that a CR 5 encounter is a suitable challenge for a party of four level 5 characters. One would assume then that a CR 10 encounter is suitable for a party of 10th level characters. Am I missing something? Does the CR system suddenly CHANGE AND GO ALL SCREWY past level 5? The game is based around beating up parties that are 4 CR lower than you are and taking their stuff. I don't like it, and I certainly don't play like that, but it's the default by the rules. Eh? You're going to spend a lot of time senselessly killing parties that are lower than you if you want to level up...are you sure you're playing the same game? I thought that the most common way of leveling up was to defeat encounters of an equal or greater challenge level, at the very most somewhere around two levels lower than your own party level. Also, I don't see a "default rule" that you don't agree with. Are you making it up? And not being a combat oriented class is irrelevant. A10th level bard can easily beat nearly any CR 10 encounter if he gains initiative by making a DC 40 diplomacy check, despite not being a "combat oriented character". So youre saying that there's no such thing as circumstantial challenges where a specific class is less capable of handling it and, if the DM so pleases, should alter the XP reward to reflect this? Or that every class and every different buld has the exact same chance of defeating an encounter, regardless? Also, IF he gains initiative. Hard to craft an appropriate encounter system on situational modifiers that few people may share. ALSO-ALSO. Your DC 40 Diplomacy check bard shouldn't get appropriate experience for that level 10 encounter because, by RAW, it wasn't a challenge for him. If its too easy, you don't get squat. Level 10 = CR 10. That's something you can't argue. I'm not arguing that CR =/= level. However, it still takes, by RAW, 4 10th level characters to have a CR 10 monster be considered an "equivalent" encounter. Just like doubling the number of foes adds 2 to the encounter level, not doubling the encounter level itself. That's the way Wizard's stupidly wrote it, and thats the way I argue it. Anything else is a house rule and is disregarded as canon.