Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Professorpain 06-27-07, 02:22 PM	I just started a new Oriental campaign. Having viewed many of the posts on the Oriental Adventures board, I have noticed that many here are especially rigid about making the classes as historically accurate as possible. I have decided to throw off the shackles of historical accuracy in my game and make the ninjas, geisha and samurai interesting and fun. Ninjas will all where black and vanish in puffs of smoke. Samurai will be suicidal in there pursuit of honor and geisha will all be high class prostitutes. History be darned!
suparman999 06-27-07, 02:39 PM	Not so much historical accuracy which they complain about, but cultural authenticity. Get it right.
Professorpain 06-27-07, 02:51 PM	Not so much historical accuracy which they complain about, but cultural authenticity. Get it right. Either way. Historically accuracy and cultural authenticity be darned. They both are fairly inseperable anyways.
MagicMouth 06-27-07, 03:06 PM	Good for you. :D Kage bunshin no jutsu, mate.
heretic888 06-27-07, 03:33 PM	I think it speaks volumes about the biases and presuppositions one makes when one determines that historical accuracy and cultural authenticity cannot be "interesting" and/or "fun". Volumes, indeed. As to my own personal experience, I have always found without exception that characters derived foreign stereotypes are inevitably boring, cliched, two-dimensional characters that speak and behave as if they were transported from children's Saturday morning programming. Of course, as always, your mileage may vary. As to the idea that historical accuracy and cultural authenticity are the same thing, this is ludicrous and evinces that one has not the foggiest clue as to what either are in the first place. Prince Yamato Takeru no Mikoto beheaded a gigantic serpent using his supernatural wakizashi with a single swing. Culturally authentic? Yep, right out of the Kojiki. Historically accurate? Not on your life, Prince Yamato is pure legend and never even existed (nor do gigantic magical serpents, for that matter). Yep, volumes indeed.
Professorpain 06-27-07, 03:45 PM	I think it speaks volumes about the biases and presuppositions one makes when one determines that historical accuracy and cultural authenticity cannot be "interesting" and/or "fun". Volumes, indeed. As to my own personal experience, I have always found without exception that characters derived foreign stereotypes are inevitably boring, cliched, two-dimensional characters that speak and behave as if they were transported from children's Saturday morning programming. Of course, as always, your mileage may vary. As to the idea that historical accuracy and cultural authenticity are the same thing, this is ludicrous and evinces that one has not the foggiest clue as to what either are in the first place. Prince Yamato Takeru no Mikoto beheaded a gigantic serpent using his supernatural wakizashi with a single swing. Culturally authentic? Yep, right out of the Kojiki. Historically accurate? Not on your life, Prince Yamato is pure legend and never even existed (nor do gigantic magical serpents, for that matter). Yep, volumes indeed. Never said they were the same thing, I said they were fairly inseperable. In that on this board, the issues of historical accuracy and cultural authenticity typically go hand in hand in people's criticism of each other. Yes one's reading comprehension speaks volumes indeed. As for fun, to each their own. Personally (even though I studied history in college and delight learning foreign customs and language) I find historically accurate (and culturally authentic) characters to be rather boring. I think you can be much more imaginative with a stereotype that is open to interpretation, than you can be with a character who is largely bound by history or cultural reality. But then I like simple fair. But please elaborate on the volumes spoken by my assumptions. Do inform me about myself. Tell me what you think you know about me based on my two or three postings here. Yes arrogance speaks volumes indeed.
heretic888 06-27-07, 04:08 PM	Never said they were the same thing, I said they were fairly inseperable. In that on this board, the issues of historical accuracy and cultural authenticity typically go hand in hand in people's criticism of each other. Yes one's reading comprehension speaks volumes indeed. Kettle? Pot? Black?? I suppose, on this board they do go hand in hand in that what one often presupposes is "historical accuracy" almost always (at least for myself, I cannot speak for anyone else) is indeed "cultural authenticity". However, that owes to the ignorance of the observer moreso than any definitively recognized correlation. I think you'll be hard pressed to find any of these so-called "historical purists" arguing that dragons, magic swords, or spells aren't "real". As for fun, to each their own. Personally (even though I studied history in college and delight learning foreign customs and language) I find historically accurate (and culturally authentic) characters to be rather boring. I think you can be much more imaginative with a stereotype that is open to interpretation, than you can be with a character who is largely bound by history or cultural reality. But then I like simple fair. I have found the exact opposite to be true in my experience. Characters derived from foreign stereotypes are almost inevitably black-and-white characters with little substance or depth to them. On a side note, I also find that these types of characters tend to be equated, in a rather heavy-handed literalist fashion, with their character class (rather than as unique individuals that have taken levels in particular character classes). More to the point, I find that foreign stereotypes tend to limit and pigeonhole what players can do with their characters. Stereotypes, by their very nature, presume a "one size fits all" paradigm. Drawing from such stereotypes, if I want to play a "samurai" then I had better be a knee-jerk Bushido traditionalist that does not fear death and charges gloriously into battle for the glory of my lord; if I don't like that, I had better play something else, as almost all of my character's "fluff" has been decided for me beforehand. By contrast, if my "samurai" is inspired by either Japanese history or cultural myths and legends, there is quite literally a pantheon of images and archetypes to draw from, including the foreign stereotype previously mentioned. Stereotypes aren't open to interpretation, certainly not to the rich degree that cultural mythos are. But please elaborate on the volumes spoken by my assumptions. Do inform me about myself. Tell me what you think you know about me based on my two or three postings here. What I stated in very clear English with my first post: the assumption that "historical accuracy" and "cultural authenticity" are exclusive to "interesting" and "fun". Yes arrogance speaks volumes indeed. Oh, hell, I'll throw in a picture this time: http://jcnot4me.com/images/pot_calls_kettle_black.bmp
Sleepwalker13666 06-27-07, 04:29 PM	I'm with ya, to hell with history, in my campaigns George washington wields a 2x4 instead of a musket because it's that much cooler. :D
Azzy 06-27-07, 04:55 PM	I just started a new Oriental campaign. Having viewed many of the posts on the Oriental Adventures board, I have noticed that many here are especially rigid about making the classes as historically accurate as possible. I have decided to throw off the shackles of historical accuracy in my game and make the ninjas, geisha and samurai interesting and fun. Ninjas will all where black and vanish in puffs of smoke. Samurai will be suicidal in there pursuit of honor and geisha will all be high class prostitutes. History be darned! I redirect you towards the forum's Code of Conduct (http://boards1.wizards.com/community_coc.php). Most notably: harassment of another specific person (e.g. persistent flaming or continued personal attacks on the boards or "in-character harassment" without prior out-of-character permission.) trolling or baiting by putting to the screen inflammatory statements designed to elicit a negative response from the community off-topic posts or casual chat/IC play in the wrong chatrooms For example: * out-of-character chat in designated in-character rooms * casual chat or non-combat play in designated combat-only rooms, or, conversely, combat play in non-combat rooms * casual chat or free-form role-play in designated structured rules/dice-based game rooms * at WizO discretion, off-topic chat or posts in topic-specific rooms/forums * card trade anywhere other than designated trading areas What you do in your own games is your own business. We don't care. However, if you bring up a subject in which you reference something from the real world and grievously misrepresent it (such as representing Spartans as fighting barely armoured and excelling in one-to-one combat), you will be called on it. Simple as that.
Professorpain 06-27-07, 05:11 PM	I redirect you towards the forum's Code of Conduct (http://boards1.wizards.com/community_coc.php). Most notably: What you do in your own games is your own business. We don't care. However, if you bring up a subject in which you reference something from the real world and grievously misrepresent it (such as representing Spartans as fighting barely armoured and excelling in one-to-one combat), you will be called on it. Simple as that. First, I was not trying to offend or bait anyone. I was simply raising what I consider to be a valid point about the atmosphere of this particular board. I am not off topic because I started the thread itself and it is related to oriental adventures. I was not harrasing anyone. I do not think this qualifies as baiting because I was not making an inflammatory statement. i simply said I would ignore historical accuracy in my game. Hardly a call to arms. Second, certainly my ideas are misrepresentations of historical or cultural reality; but they do come out of valid popular myth, which I consider to be more entertaining. While your Spartan example is illuminating, I tend to think that people on the other D&D boards would be less pedantic about that issue. Lets be honest this has very little to do with accuracy and much more to do with ownership of a specialized area of knowledge. What I am advocating is playing to players' expectations in a culturally specific setting. So in a pirate game, give them plently of swashbuckling and funny pirate talk because that is what they most likely want. Same principle applies to an asian setting or a medieval europe setting.
Kevin Andrew Murphy 06-27-07, 10:27 PM	I think what we're running into here is the "Saying 'thou' to the Queen" business. For example, it's a standard convention of Ye Olde Fantasylande play-acting to run around saying "thee" and "thou" to everyone right and left, because that's how people spoke in Ye Olden Dayes. Of course, there are also enough players who are Ren Faire geeks and history buffs to explain that in the history of English linguistics, "thee" and "thou" used to be the informal and familiar and "you" was the formal and respectful and so no one would ever say "thee" to the Queen back in Ye Olden Dayes because it would be a terrible affront. Honestly, I think we can be happy with all worlds. I'm running my gamers through fantasy ancient China right now, and one of the first opponents they ran into was an assassin masquerading as a courtesan. I didn't say "geisha" because they're on the mainland and the geisha being Japanese are on the isles to the east, but there's nothing wrong with an assassin dressing up as a courtesan and me doing this as DM should not suggest that all courtesans in fact carry poisoned daggers, anymore than it should suggest that since the assassin before that dressed up as an old granny and tried to poison the entire party with blowfish toxin that all Chinese grannies not only have Use Poison as a class skill but access to huge quantities of blowfish venom.
Azzy 06-27-07, 11:04 PM	First, I was not trying to offend or bait anyone. I was simply raising what I consider to be a valid point about the atmosphere of this particular board. I am not off topic because I started the thread itself and it is related to oriental adventures. I was not harrasing anyone. I do not think this qualifies as baiting because I was not making an inflammatory statement. i simply said I would ignore historical accuracy in my game. Hardly a call to arms. No, it's clearly baiting. Second, certainly my ideas are misrepresentations of historical or cultural reality; but they do come out of valid popular myth, And some, like the geisha-assassin or the ninja being universally evil do not "come out of valid popular myth." If you were actually modeling archetypes that you see from chanbara films, literature, legend, etc., it would be fine--but that's not what's going on. which I consider to be more entertaining. While your Spartan example is illuminating, I tend to think that people on the other D&D boards would be less pedantic about that issue. And you would tend to be wrong, too. Go to the Equipment and Combat forum and start misrepresenting historical weapons there. Lets be honest this has very little to do with accuracy and much more to do with ownership of a specialized area of knowledge. What I am advocating is playing to players' expectations in a culturally specific setting. So in a pirate game, give them plently of swashbuckling and funny pirate talk because that is what they most likely want. Same principle applies to an asian setting or a medieval europe setting. Like I said in the previous thread, do whatever you want in your game. However, if you discuss something from the real world be prepared to encounter those who find the facts far more entertaining than regurgitated stereotypes or half-informed misconceptions.
Professorpain 06-28-07, 12:08 AM	No, it's clearly baiting. And some, like the geisha-assassin or the ninja being universally evil do not "come out of valid popular myth." If you were actually modeling archetypes that you see from chanbara films, literature, legend, etc., it would be fine--but that's not what's going on. And you would tend to be wrong, too. Go to the Equipment and Combat forum and start misrepresenting historical weapons there. Like I said in the previous thread, do whatever you want in your game. However, if you discuss something from the real world be prepared to encounter those who find the facts far more entertaining than regurgitated stereotypes or half-informed misconceptions. I respectfully disagree with all of your points. Especially the point about ninja's. i think it is safe to assume that most people conceive of the Ninja as an evil assassin. I do not actually recall mentioning a geisha assasin, but still it would fit within the pulp fantasy world I am trying to create. For the record, i made no attempt to discuss anything from the real world. All I did was make a statement about the content of my own campaign. I never made any factual claims about ninja or geisha. I just said how I intended to use them in my own game. In fact I acknowledged that I am deliberately misrepresenting reality by naming the thread "History be darned..." As for the baiting issue, I appologize if you believe that is what I was intending. I really was just making what I consider to be a valid point about the content of this board.
CaptKillern 06-28-07, 12:34 AM	I respectfully disagree with all of your points. Especially the point about ninja's. i think it is safe to assume that most people conceive of the Ninja as an evil assassin. Look at the majority of the cheesy 80's and 90's ninja movies... American Ninja, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Surf Ninjas, The Ninja books by Eric Van Lustbader also has a good guy ninja as the main character. Snake Eyes was for all intent and purpose a ninja, and Stormshadow became good. And the greatest ninja of all, Vanilla Ice, was a good guy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFLGRidfFo4 Most books, Mangas, Anime or movies I have seen that have "evil" ninja have good ninja as well. If you ask most children whether ninja are good guys or bad guys they will probably say good.
Azzy 06-28-07, 12:44 AM	I respectfully disagree with all of your points. Especially the point about ninja's. i think it is safe to assume that most people conceive of the Ninja as an evil assassin. Even though the most recognizable portrayals of ninja are Naruto, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Ninja Scroll (and other portrayals of Jubei), Ninja Gaiden and Shinobi video games, etc. where the ninja are the protagonists and typically good. So, applying the ill-conceived notion that ninja are evil is going against the very pop culture you esteem, and forcing ninja characters into a single, rigid concept. I do not actually recall mentioning a geisha assasin, but still it would fit within the pulp fantasy world I am trying to create. For the record, i made no attempt to discuss anything from the real world. All I did was make a statement about the content of my own campaign. I never made any factual claims about ninja or geisha. I just said how I intended to use them in my own game. In fact I acknowledged that I am deliberately misrepresenting reality by naming the thread "History be darned..." Ah, but you post is in response to the "many here are especially rigid about making the classes as historically accurate as possible.* " A misrepresentation of the "many here" that you seemed to have misconstrued on the only two other threads (here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=852003) and here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=864122)) on the OA boards that you participated in. *And if that's not a baiting phrase, what is? As for the baiting issue, I appologize if you believe that is what I was intending. I really was just making what I consider to be a valid point about the content of this board. Well, when you misrepresent others, and start a thread for no other purpose than to rail against the board regulars or "the content of this board," what else can you be construed as intending?
Professorpain 06-28-07, 01:11 AM	Even though the most recognizable portrayals of ninja are Naruto, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Ninja Scroll (and other portrayals of Jubei), Ninja Gaiden and Shinobi video games, etc. where the ninja are the protagonists and typically good. So, applying the ill-conceived notion that ninja are evil is going against the very pop culture you esteem, and forcing ninja characters into a single, rigid concept. Ah, but you post is in response to the "many here are especially rigid about making the classes as historically accurate as possible.* " A misrepresentation of the "many here" that you seemed to have misconstrued on the only two other threads (here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=875234) and here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=864122)) on the OA boards that you participated in. *And if that's not a baiting phrase, what is? Well, when you misrepresent others, and start a thread for no other purpose than to rail against the board regulars or "the content of this board," what else can you be construed as intending? Perhaps we grew up in different eras, but the Ninja's I watched as a kid were most definately evil. Though to be fair, I think there are two strains of Ninja in the pop conciousness of America (good ninja and bad ninja). But even in films where the good ninja is a protagonist he often finds himself in the minority against an army of bad ninjas. I think the responses so far demonstrate that I have not mischaracterized the board regulars and that pedantic is the most appropriate term one could use to describe them. I would not call my thread baiting at all. It is merely an attempt to make room for other kinds of posters.
Azzy 06-28-07, 01:38 AM	Perhaps we grew up in different eras, but the Ninja's I watched as a kid were most definately evil. Considering I just covered 3 decades of ninja goodness, I must ask what "era" you grew up in? I think the responses so far demonstrate that I have not mischaracterized the board regulars and that pedantic is the most appropriate term one could use to describe them. Here you go with the harassing, inflammatory and baiting comments, again. Considering that "many here are especially rigid about making the classes as historically accurate as possible" doesn't actually characterize the "many here," yes, you are mischaracterizing us. Wow, you see us rail against blanketing ninja with the evil stereotype, or point out that making an assassin class and calling it a geisha is as silly as making necromancer, giant killer and vampire slayer classes and calling them "tanners," "tailors" and "bakers" (respectively). The point that we become really pedantic is when people come here proclaiming misconceptions, fiction, half truths, and falsehoods as indelible facts (like here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12523091&postcount=61)). And we aren't concerned with historical accuracy as much as cultural authenticity (which, btw, derives as much from legend, myth, literature and film as much as it does from history).
Zaver 06-28-07, 02:05 AM	The point that we become really pedantic is when people come here bringing proclaiming misconceptions, fiction, half truths, and falsehoods as indelible facts (like here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12523091&postcount=61)). It's never a good sign when someone says go to wikipedia. It's nothing more then a strict message board and I don't trust any thing you guys say. No offense but we all know the internet is full of twelve year olds that have studied what ever subject we're currently on for thirty years and have written numerous books. I'd only believe someone on the internet telling me the sky is blue because I know it already.
Azzy 06-28-07, 02:14 AM	It's never a good sign when someone says go to wikipedia. It's nothing more then a strict message board and I don't trust any thing you guys say. No offense but we all know the internet is full of twelve year olds that have studied what ever subject we're currently on for thirty years and have written numerous books. I'd only believe someone on the internet telling me the sky is blue because I know it already. You do realise that the guy toting wikipedia is an example of the kind of person that comes "here proclaiming misconceptions, fiction, half truths, and falsehoods as indelible facts" and gets our collective dander up, don't you?
Dreamstryder 06-28-07, 04:39 AM	...eherm, so how do people approach with ninjas, geisha, and samurai in their games? Don't say, "Carefully, with a knife." In my game, the spirits are more active and hence shinto priests are a high social rank. The miko (shrine maidens) are close to their more ancient roles as spirit channelers. Samurai is a group of civil servants handling human problems. Perhaps it is culturally accurate to view samurai as a social group rather than a kind of warrior/bushi, but this setting is definitely not historically accurate, for samurai wield gunblades, the only "ninja" in the game is a shapeshifting cyborg (because she's a cyborg, not because she's a ninja), and the other side of a midnight mirror could lead to a world lighted by another sun and beings that haunt the nightmares of small children.
Sleepwalker13666 06-28-07, 04:59 AM	Ah, but you post is in response to the "many here are especially rigid about making the classes as historically accurate as possible.* " A misrepresentation of the "many here" that you seemed to have misconstrued on the only two other threads (here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=852003) and here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=864122)) on the OA boards that you participated in. :weep: :weep: :weep: :weep: :weep: :weep: :weep: :weep: :weep: Great, my already volatile post is being used to support for an argument, should my next response on my geisha post be 'in before ban"? :weep: :weep: :weep: :weep: :weep: :weep: :weep: :weep: :weep:
sambudak 06-28-07, 09:31 AM	While professorpains new campaign may be horrific to some of the "authenticists" on this particular board it hardly rises to the level of baiting. The level of imagined ownership of this board and its content is what I'd characterize as ludicrous.
Professorpain 06-28-07, 10:12 AM	Even though the most recognizable portrayals of ninja are Naruto, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Ninja Scroll (and other portrayals of Jubei), Ninja Gaiden and Shinobi video games, etc. where the ninja are the protagonists and typically good. So, applying the ill-conceived notion that ninja are evil is going against the very pop culture you esteem, and forcing ninja characters into a single, rigid concept. Ah, but you post is in response to the "many here are especially rigid about making the classes as historically accurate as possible.* " A misrepresentation of the "many here" that you seemed to have misconstrued on the only two other threads (here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=852003) and here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=864122)) on the OA boards that you participated in. *And if that's not a baiting phrase, what is? Well, when you misrepresent others, and start a thread for no other purpose than to rail against the board regulars or "the content of this board," what else can you be construed as intending? I really do not think I am guilty of baiting since the only inflamatory thing I wrote came after you attacked me for not adhering to "cultural authenticity" in my game (the fact that you have been so adamant about the distinction between cultural authenticity and historical accuracy only proves my point about pedantry). Furthermore I never proclaimed or asserted anything about asian culture at all (as you keep saying). I merely told everyone how I would use asian concepts in my game, and that I would deliberately avoid cultural authenticity (which is hardly inflammatory). Then you kep attacking me and insisting I was misrepresenting the people on this board and asian culture.
Professorpain 06-28-07, 10:13 AM	While professorpains new campaign may be horrific to some of the "authenticists" on this particular board it hardly rises to the level of baiting. The level of imagined ownership of this board and its content is what I'd characterize as ludicrous. This was the point I was trying to raise when I pointed out this whole thing is really about ownership of specialized information.
The_Shaman 06-28-07, 10:40 AM	Ok, you can have your campaign as you want, have fun. I just don't see the point of you starting a thread over the fact that you will have a non-purist campaign. Were you looking to argue, or for ideas, or what? It sounded like a challenge of sorts, which is people started arguing.
heretic888 06-28-07, 11:22 AM	While professorpains new campaign may be horrific to some of the "authenticists" on this particular board it hardly rises to the level of baiting. The level of imagined ownership of this board and its content is what I'd characterize as ludicrous. Oh, please. Spare us the hyperbole. Professorpain began this thread for the sole purpose of making a "nyah, nyah, nyah, I'm doing this this way so I'm better than you!" to some of the posters on this forum. It's baiting as sure as I have ever seen it done on the WotC boards. This is cemented by the fact that in his original post, he characterized some of us as "rigid" and implied (if not outright stated) that cultural authenticity is exclusive to "interesting" and "fun". The entire point of this thread is to thumb his nose at others and show how what he is doing is more "interesting", "fun", and definitely not "rigid" than what they are doing. Look at me, I'm better than you! Thanks, but no thanks. And, I would like to point out, nobody has answered my question concerning how rigidly black-and-white stereotypes with a "one size fits all" paradigm (i.e., all "ninja" are X, all "samurai" are Y) does not limit and pigeonhole one's players. There is a rich diversity and complexity to any culture's given fantasy mythos, far surpassing anything you'll find in pop-culture stereotypes and fads. So, explain to me how "all samurai are honor-bound zealots that charge gloriously into battle for their lord" is preferable to "well, some samurai are like that, whereas others are more like Musashi Miyamoto, some like Himura Kenshin, a few are rebellious strategists like Minamoto no Yoshiitsune or Prince Yamato, some are like the Ako ronin; its really up to the players as to what 'samurai' they want to play". But, we're the rigid ones?? Please.
sambudak 06-28-07, 11:34 AM	Oh, please. Spare us the hyperbole. No problem. It's entirely possible you might have convinced me that non-historical culturally inaccurate RPing is the way to go henceforth. Thanks. You've been very helpful.
Professorpain 06-28-07, 11:41 AM	Oh, please. Spare us the hyperbole. Professorpain began this thread for the sole purpose of making a "nyah, nyah, nyah, I'm doing this this way so I'm better than you!" to some of the posters on this forum. It's baiting as sure as I have ever seen it done on the WotC boards. This is cemented by the fact that in his original post, he characterized some of us as "rigid" and implied (if not outright stated) that cultural authenticity is exclusive to "interesting" and "fun". The entire point of this thread is to thumb his nose at others and show how what he is doing is more "interesting", "fun", and definitely not "rigid" than what they are doing. Look at me, I'm better than you! Thanks, but no thanks. And, I would like to point out, nobody has answered my question concerning how rigidly black-and-white stereotypes with a "one size fits all" paradigm (i.e., all "ninja" are X, all "samurai" are Y) does not limit and pigeonhole one's players. There is a rich diversity and complexity to any culture's given fantasy mythos, far surpassing anything you'll find in pop-culture stereotypes and fads. So, explain to me how "all samurai are honor-bound zealots that charge gloriously into battle for their lord" is preferable to "well, some samurai are like that, whereas others are more like Musashi Miyamoto, some like Himura Kenshin, a few are rebellious strategists like Minamoto no Yoshiitsune or Prince Yamato, some are like the Ako ronin; its really up to the players as to what 'samurai' they want to play". But, we're the rigid ones?? Please. Because the cultural stereotype is a starting point. But very honestly it is simply about having fun. There is still a lot of whiggle room within and beyond the stereotype. Of course players are free to go beyond the boundaries of these stereotypes, but I am using writers like Clavell as a blueprint and not imposing detailed knowledge of asian culture or history as a requirement for the game. Your paradigm is confining because it requires too much in depth knowledge on the part of the players, and they are limited by that knowledge. Whereas with a stereotype they are free to use it as a basis and let their imaginations run wild without worrying over whether their character concept matches the historical or cultural reality. Your approach favors asiaphiles and scholars. My approach allows everyone to have fun. Again I appologize if you consider it baiting. I have no problem with you playing the game that you want to. What I object to is the way that posters get treated by some regulars on the oriental adventure board. I was just trying to remind people that oriental adventures is a fictional setting that can be as historically accurate or innacurate as people want it to be. I was honestly just trying to broaden the tone of this thread because so many people get attacked on it for minor issues like not possessing a thorough command of Japanese history and culture. Perhaps you do not realize how aggressive some of the regulars on this board appear to be.
heretic888 06-28-07, 12:09 PM	Because the cultural stereotype is a starting point. But very honestly it is simply about having fun. There is still a lot of whiggle room within and beyond the stereotype. Honestly, do you even know what a stereotype is?? A stereotype is a generalization about a group of people in which every individual in that group is presumed to have the same characteristics. Stereotypes, by their very nature, do not allow for diversity, individuality, or "whiggle room". So, explain to me how things work in your system when "samurai" or "ninja" do not conform to the stereotypes you have restricted them to. If the stereotypes are not binding, why not be honest and let the players play their concepts as they see fit?? Your stereotypes are just straightjackets that limit roleplaying opportunities. Your paradigm is confining because it requires too much in depth knowledge on the part of the players, and they are limited by that knowledge. Whereas with a stereotype they are free to use it as a basis and let their imaginations run wild without worrying over whether their character concept matches the historical or cultural reality. Explain to me how "players can play whatever 'samurai' they wish to play" requires "too much in depth knowledge". Furthermore, explain to me how rigid stereotypes allow for one's "imagination to run wild", since stereotypes by their nature force all members of a group into predefined characteristics and qualities. I think your approach does the exact opposite of what you claim it does. Your approach favors asiaphiles and scholars. My approach allows everyone to have fun. Since we're back to the hyperbole game, your approach favors bigots, racists, and ethnocentric xenophobes. My approach allows everyone to play the concept they want without worrying about metagame straighjackets imposed by a "rigid" DM. Again I appologize if you consider it baiting. What you were doing was baiting. You started a thread showing how your way of doing things is "better" than others. I have no problem with you playing the game that you want to. What I object to is the way that posters get treated by some regulars on the oriental adventure board. I was just trying to remind people that oriental adventures is a fictional setting that can be as historically accurate or innacurate as people want it to be. What, you mean dragons, oni, and monkey-people aren't real?? Gee, I guess we forgot about that. :rolleyes: I was honestly just trying to broaden the tone of this thread because so many people get attacked on it for minor issues like not possessing a thorough command of Japanese history and culture. Perhaps you do not realize how aggressive some of the regulars on this board appear to be. People are not attacked, their assertions are. Context is your friend.
Professorpain 06-28-07, 12:49 PM	Honestly, do you even know what a stereotype is?? A stereotype is a generalization about a group of people in which every individual in that group is presumed to have the same characteristics. Stereotypes, by their very nature, do not allow for diversity, individuality, or "whiggle room". So, explain to me how things work in your system when "samurai" or "ninja" do not conform to the stereotypes you have restricted them to. If the stereotypes are not binding, why not be honest and let the players play their concepts as they see fit?? Your stereotypes are just straightjackets that limit roleplaying opportunities. Explain to me how "players can play whatever 'samurai' they wish to play" requires "too much in depth knowledge". Furthermore, explain to me how rigid stereotypes allow for one's "imagination to run wild", since stereotypes by their nature force all members of a group into predefined characteristics and qualities. I think your approach does the exact opposite of what you claim it does. Since we're back to the hyperbole game, your approach favors bigots, racists, and ethnocentric xenophobes. My approach allows everyone to play the concept they want without worrying about metagame straighjackets imposed by a "rigid" DM. What you were doing was baiting. You started a thread showing how your way of doing things is "better" than others. What, you mean dragons, oni, and monkey-people aren't real?? Gee, I guess we forgot about that. :rolleyes: People are not attacked, their assertions are. Context is your friend. Its funny you should say my method favors bigots and xenophobes, since I am engaged to an asian woman, have worked with koreans and thais for many years, and am a long time student of middle east culture and arabic. In my personal life I have found the exact opposite of what you say. I would ask that you use a more polite tone and stop questioning peoples' intelligence who disagree with you. Yes of course I know what a stereotype is. I have never suggested that people employ stereotypes in their day to day life (although a stereotype is often just a shorthand for understand a different and complicated culture). But in the the field of entertainment we constantly rely on simplified models of people, groups, and places we do not know that much about. It is helpful as a starting point. You are assuming too much about what I allow my players to do as well. Personally I will have my NPCs and Setting meet most of the players' expectations of asian and near eastern culture (material drawn from films and books released in the 70s and 80s). The players are of course free to do as they wish. If any of them want to model a character after a more informed understanding of a histotical or cultural figure, then they are free to do so. But since I know that most of my players want to play the disney version of asia, and not the Edward Said version, I will do my best to meet their expectations. Again, I am aiming for a fun game. It does not have to be high brow or overly detailed. Just fun. And I do think this will give the players a greater sense of liscense to persue what their imagination dictates. We can go back and forth on these points all day. But in the end, I believe that the clear difference in tone of our posts simply illustrates my point. I have not resorted to harsh language, sarcasm, insults or calling people bigots. This seems to be an issue of ownership of material, as another poster pointed out.
Professorpain 06-28-07, 12:52 PM	What, you mean dragons, oni, and monkey-people aren't real?? Gee, I guess we forgot about that. :rolleyes: People are not attacked, their assertions are. Context is your friend. When you use sarcasm and eye rolls people tend to feel as though it is themselves, and not there assertions, that are being attacked. Anyways you support my point that people who come into this board and are less informed with you immediately face judgment at the hands of regulars, which is unfortunate.
Azzy 06-28-07, 01:06 PM	I really do not think I am guilty of baiting since the only inflamatory thing I wrote came after you attacked me for not adhering to "cultural authenticity" in my game So, "What you do in your own games is your own business. We don't care" is attacking you for not adhering to cultural authenticity? Right. (the fact that you have been so adamant about the distinction between cultural authenticity and historical accuracy only proves my point about pedantry). Oh, so correcting you when you misrepresent us is a sin? If so, I'm happily guilty of it. Furthermore I never proclaimed or asserted anything about asian culture at all (as you keep saying). Do read my posts. I never claimed that you asserted anything about Asian culture. The closest thing to that that I did say is, "However, if you discuss something from the real world be prepared to encounter those who find the facts far more entertaining than regurgitated stereotypes or half-informed misconceptions." But that as in "if you choose to do so." I merely told everyone how I would use asian concepts in my game, and that I would deliberately avoid cultural authenticity (which is hardly inflammatory). What you did was start a threat with the intent to rile board regulars and used the inflammatory phrase, "Having viewed many of the posts on the Oriental Adventures board, I have noticed that many here are especially rigid about making the classes as historically accurate as possible." Then you keep attacking me and insisting I was misrepresenting the people on this board and asian culture. Actually, my first post was letting you know that you were treading on thin ice as far as the CoC was concerned And I followed that up with: "What you do in your own games is your own business. We don't care. However, if you bring up a subject in which you reference something from the real world and grievously misrepresent it (such as representing Spartans as fighting barely armoured and excelling in one-to-one combat), you will be called on it. Simple as that." From that point forward, I have tried to maintain calm, reasoned and rational responses to your posts. If you wish, we can contact the WizOs and let them judge whether or not your thread constitutes baiting or if my posts constitutes "attacking" you.
Hochiu 06-28-07, 01:08 PM	I wasn't going to touch this thread with a ten foot pole, but my sado-masochism won't let me ignore this. Unfortunately, when the one reads the threads on the board, contributes to the other posts in such a way as to already ascertain the general feeling of the community towards other posters and then starts his own thread in direct contradiction to an already inflammatory situation then yes, it is considered baiting. The tone of the article in question and this entire thread is derrogatory, insulting, and presumptuous. Referring to the community as supporting "asiaphiles" or "scholars", precluding the idea that we like to have fun in our own right without possessing multiple doctorates in asian studies, determining us to be "rigid" in our views toward class and any cultural authenticity we may have is slapping us in the face with a glove. There is no imagined ownership on this board and again, those individuals who apply the notion is doing not but insult. I hardly see these individuals who make these claims coming around to provide support in any form to any of the discussions that have taken place, and the OA forum is small enough that I can browse through the few threads on the main page with impunity and hardly miss a thing. Thusly, I can only assume that those posters who have a problem with the overwhelming feeling of the community are specifically here to cause problems and stir up trouble. Basically, if you, or anyone else who believes the forum is supportive of only cultural authenticity, I challenge you to browse through the archives. They cut our archives heavily in the last update, and there will be NO example found what-so-ever. All the claims you have made are because of TWO threads in a forum of debates and conflicts and discussions and everything else. And now because the thread has shifted from content discussions to personal attacks (started by the OP, might I add) I don't believe it will remain open that long.
Professorpain 06-28-07, 01:47 PM	add). Sure Thing: Geisha "People, get you literature straight. There was never any such thing as a geisha assassin in either Japanese History or Fantasy. The entire concept is a western misconception and misunderstanding of assassins/spies disguised as geisha/courtesans/entertainers. These people were not trained entertainers, they were trained spies/assassins, they were good at the art of disguise." "No. The geisha assassin garbage goes far beyond the "this is fantasy I can do what I want" excuse. Its ignorance. Pure and simple."-Narukagami "You sir, watched that hollywood movie and though that everthing in there was true, am I correct here?"-Nobunaga "And you argument is kinda silly. Even in we had a baker "crust-slinger" pop culture trope to start from, an geisha-assassin would be more akin to making a base class baker that shoots lasers from its eyes and has nothing with the pop culture trope outside of the name."-Azzy Ninjas "WotC's designers need a good long talk with allot of people. Including, but not limited to, historians, mythologists, competent game designers, and elementary school English teachers. Also: In before "but its a magical fantasy game"-Narukagami "So I wouldn't say that sneaky killers are scum anywhere near a Army Base. How would you even know what real ninja were like? You've listed NO sources whatsoever to back up anything your saying. I think your ninja expertise comes from D&D sterotypes and kungfu movies. I will write you off now. "-Akuma "Historical note-Ninjas were mostly farmers who learned Martial arts in order to protect themselves. Very few were assasins, they didn't do "magic" (smoke, mirrors and hot oil.),And they didn't were all black (farmers, not goths). wizards, you've got alot of explaining to do..." These are just from the most recent threads on Geisha and Ninjas.
sambudak 06-28-07, 01:56 PM	Sure Thing: Geisha "People, get you literature straight. There was never any such thing as a geisha assassin in either Japanese History or Fantasy. The entire concept is a western misconception and misunderstanding of assassins/spies disguised as geisha/courtesans/entertainers. These people were not trained entertainers, they were trained spies/assassins, they were good at the art of disguise." "No. The geisha assassin garbage goes far beyond the "this is fantasy I can do what I want" excuse. Its ignorance. Pure and simple."-Narukagami "You sir, watched that hollywood movie and though that everthing in there was true, am I correct here?"-Nobunaga "And you argument is kinda silly. Even in we had a baker "crust-slinger" pop culture trope to start from, an geisha-assassin would be more akin to making a base class baker that shoots lasers from its eyes and has nothing with the pop culture trope outside of the name."-Azzy Ninjas "WotC's designers need a good long talk with allot of people. Including, but not limited to, historians, mythologists, competent game designers, and elementary school English teachers. Also: In before "but its a magical fantasy game"-Narukagami "So I wouldn't say that sneaky killers are scum anywhere near a Army Base. How would you even know what real ninja were like? You've listed NO sources whatsoever to back up anything your saying. I think your ninja expertise comes from D&D sterotypes and kungfu movies. I will write you off now. "-Akuma "Historical note-Ninjas were mostly farmers who learned Martial arts in order to protect themselves. Very few were assasins, they didn't do "magic" (smoke, mirrors and hot oil.),And they didn't were all black (farmers, not goths). wizards, you've got alot of explaining to do..." Nice Prof. I was wondering for a minute there if I my reading comprehension was lacking, but I'm okay. Thanks man.
narukagami 06-28-07, 02:00 PM	Sure Thing: Geisha "People, get you literature straight. There was never any such thing as a geisha assassin in either Japanese History or Fantasy. The entire concept is a western misconception and misunderstanding of assassins/spies disguised as geisha/courtesans/entertainers. These people were not trained entertainers, they were trained spies/assassins, they were good at the art of disguise." "No. The geisha assassin garbage goes far beyond the "this is fantasy I can do what I want" excuse. Its ignorance. Pure and simple."-Narukagami "You sir, watched that hollywood movie and though that everthing in there was true, am I correct here?"-Nobunaga "And you argument is kinda silly. Even in we had a baker "crust-slinger" pop culture trope to start from, an geisha-assassin would be more akin to making a base class baker that shoots lasers from its eyes and has nothing with the pop culture trope outside of the name."-Azzy Ninjas "WotC's designers need a good long talk with allot of people. Including, but not limited to, historians, mythologists, competent game designers, and elementary school English teachers. Also: In before "but its a magical fantasy game"-Narukagami "So I wouldn't say that sneaky killers are scum anywhere near a Army Base. How would you even know what real ninja were like? You've listed NO sources whatsoever to back up anything your saying. I think your ninja expertise comes from D&D sterotypes and kungfu movies. I will write you off now. "-Akuma "Historical note-Ninjas were mostly farmers who learned Martial arts in order to protect themselves. Very few were assasins, they didn't do "magic" (smoke, mirrors and hot oil.),And they didn't were all black (farmers, not goths). wizards, you've got alot of explaining to do..." I'd like to note you've only proved Hochiu's point. You're basing your generalizations on two threads out of the plethora of content on this forum, and took the quotes entirely out of context. Try again, and try not to misrepresent the context of the quotes next time, either.
Yanagita Kunio 06-28-07, 02:02 PM	In before lock to point out three things: First, most pedantry on this board occurs relative to what a poster claims about "real life x," not about what people are putting in their fantasy setting. Admittedly, these often amount to thread rot, and can be quite snippy--but honestly in these cases I sort of understand, even if I don't approve, the disgruntlement, since it's a matter of the application of stereotypes--or just lazy generalization--to real people and cultures. I've seen some pretty horrid things claimed as "fact" on this board, many of which amount to an Asian--and particularly Japanese--equivalent of Amos 'n Andy. It's only after being chastised for such statements that posters retreat beneath the aegis of "well, it's a fantasy game, so I can claim whatever I want"--generally ignoring that they supported their concept with claims of "authenticity" long before the history-philes of the board even warmed up. At other times, history/culture is cited in response to a question or issue posed by a poster, in the hopes that an anecdote might provide elucidation or inspiration. I, for example, frequently cite the latter-day origins of Bushido and the questionable credentials of authors Nitobe and Tsunetomo, not because I soil myself when inaccuracies arise, but to try and point out that samurai "face/honor" in-game can be much more personal, nuanced, and tailored to the play of an individual...essentially to communicate that you can be a "samurai/bushi" without being straightjacketed by the classes (and accompanying horrible flavor text) that bear that name. Put another way, not only don't I require other players/posters to have an in-depth knowledge of history or culture, I actually want them to assert their individual character ideas in lieu of the (rather stale) tropes they recognize from pop culture and even the flavor text of RP books like Oriental Adventures. I would say the same of the other "experts" on the board...generally they evoke history and myth to point out that you don't have to be nailed down to the available tropes of "Oriental." One of the major things brought up by the supposedly "narrow" people on this board that do know some Asian history/culture is that many archetypal roles and tropes from Asia--such as samurai, ninja, geisha--are internally variegated both in history and in literature/fiction, and that it brings richness and fun to the game and the characters presented/played if you don't latch down too hard on creating a concrete, game-mechanical definition for everything, but rather let them be amorphous social positions or skillsets that can be grafted atop the existing classes. --- Second, I would also point out that past upsets involving "posters versus authenticians" the irritation of the former has been prompted less by the posing of the question "why is it not like the real thing?" and more by "why would you want to confine a concept to such a narrow version?" The only dalliance in authenticity I ever see on this board is in reference to "Geisha" classes, wherein two intertwined questions are generally posed: "why does this body of mechanical abilities need to be paired with a name invoking a very specific skillset" which is ultimately a question of semantics, and "why should I accept/endorse this new 1-20 class, when it's simply a mix of two or three existing classes" which is ultimately a question of class utility. Sleepwalker's class received a lot less venom because he's (? sorry if I get your gender wrong?) a polite poster, although the discussion in his thread pretty much representative of the semi-thread-rot that occurs in the wake of an assertion of real-world fact and subsequent debate/citations/corrections. --- Third, I suggest to the board natives stop responding to or in this thread. The OP is entitled to play however he wants, and I sincerely hope he and his group enjoy themselves. If the intent of the thread is to announce that he plays differently than he perceives the accuracy-minded posters here to play, then the thread's mission is accomplished. There's nothing to say back. If the subsequent posts suggest that this intent includes an aspect of baiting...well, that's all the more reason not to respond.
Professorpain 06-28-07, 02:04 PM	I'd like to note you've only proved Hochiu's point. You're basing your generalizations on two threads out of the plethora of content on this forum, and took the quotes entirely out of context. Try again, and try not to misrepresent the context of the quotes next time, either. No they were not taking out of context at all. In fact many of them are shown in their entirety. I made sure of this when I read and posted them. These are just two of the most recent threads. I am basing the rest of my judgment on my memory of older discussions. However, both of those threads appear to be fairly indicative of the content of this board.
Azzy 06-28-07, 02:21 PM	And your point is what? I did say in my very first post in this thread: "What you do in your own games is your own business. We don't care. However, if you bring up a subject in which you reference something from the real world and grievously misrepresent it (such as representing Spartans as fighting barely armoured and excelling in one-to-one combat), you will be called on it. Simple as that." I also said: "The point that we become really pedantic is when people come here proclaiming misconceptions, fiction, half truths, and falsehoods as indelible facts." By the way, if you're going to selectively quote other's posts, you should at least give links to those posts so that a random reader may see those quotes in their proper context.
narukagami 06-28-07, 02:27 PM	By the way, if you're going to selectively quote other's posts, you should at least give links to those posts so that a random reader may see those quotes in their proper context. And also the later posts where one admits to and apologizes for sounding harsher than intended and attempts to clear up misunderstandings.:P
heretic888 06-28-07, 02:29 PM	Its funny you should say my method favors bigots and xenophobes, since I am engaged to an asian woman, have worked with koreans and thais for many years, and am a long time student of middle east culture and arabic. In my personal life I have found the exact opposite of what you say. Its also funny you should say my method favors scholars and asiaphiles, since I am neither (heck, my educational background isn't even in Asian studies). Once again, it seems that context is lost to you. I wasn't calling you a bigot, racist, or xenophobe. I was sardonically responding in kind to your assertion that my "method" (which I have yet to elucidate to any degree) favors "scholars" and "asiaphiles". My method does this no more than your method favors racists and bigots. It was hyperbolic statement making sweeping generalizations about some of us, and --- guess what? --- I called you on it. I would ask that you use a more polite tone and stop questioning peoples' intelligence who disagree with you. This coming from a guy who created a thread for the sole purpose of baiting the regulars on this forum and showing how his games are more "fun" and "interesting" than theirs?? Please, spare me. Yes of course I know what a stereotype is. I have never suggested that people employ stereotypes in their day to day life (although a stereotype is often just a shorthand for understand a different and complicated culture). But in the the field of entertainment we constantly rely on simplified models of people, groups, and places we do not know that much about. It is helpful as a starting point. Uh huh. So, for the umpteenth time.... Explain to me why your players need a "starting point" about such things in the first place. Neither I nor any of my fellow players have ever needed a "starting point" for roleplaying any of the concepts that piqued our interests (unless there's something special about Oriental mythos that I haven't noticed yet). Why do yours?? My players can play the concept they wish to play whoever they wish to play it (within reason, of course). I don't have to invoke metagame straightjackets that deliberately limits the roleplaying opportunities inherent in the game. Why do your players have to have their characters' fluff determined for them beforehand?? Is there a particular reason why the PCs and NPCs in your games aren't individuals?? What possible reason do these "stereotypes" serve other than to pigeonhole characters and limit what they can do?? We can go back and forth on these points all day. But in the end, I believe that the clear difference in tone of our posts simply illustrates my point. I have not resorted to harsh language, sarcasm, insults or calling people bigots. This seems to be an issue of ownership of material, as another poster pointed out. Since you obviously missed it the first time: http://jcnot4me.com/images/pot_calls_kettle_black.bmp
Professorpain 06-28-07, 02:31 PM	Its also funny you should say my method favors scholars and asiaphiles, since I am neither (heck, my educational background isn't even in Asian studies). Once again, it seems that context is lost to you. I wasn't calling you a bigot, racist, or xenophobe. I was sardonically responding in kind to your assertion that my "method" (which I have yet to elucidate to any degree) favors "scholars" and "asiaphiles". My method does this no more than your method favors racists and bigots. It was hyperbolic statement making sweeping generalizations about some of us, and --- guess what? --- I called you on it. This coming from a guy who created a thread for the sole purpose of baiting the regulars on this forum and showing how his games are more "fun" and "interesting" than theirs?? Please, spare me. Uh huh. So, for the umpteenth time.... Explain to me why your players need a "starting point" about such things in the first place. Neither I nor any of my fellow players have ever needed a "starting point" for roleplaying any of the concepts that piqued our interests (unless there's something special about Oriental mythos that I haven't noticed yet). Why do yours?? My players can play the concept they wish to play whoever they wish to play it (within reason, of course). I don't have to invoke metagame straightjackets that deliberately limits the roleplaying opportunities inherent in the game. Why do your players have to have their characters' fluff determined for them beforehand?? Is there a particular reason why the PCs and NPCs in your games aren't individuals?? What possible reason do these "stereotypes" serve other than to pigeonhole characters and limit what they can do?? Since you obviously missed it the first time: http://jcnot4me.com/images/pot_calls_kettle_black.bmp Heretic I am happy to have a dialogue with you about this, but I will not respond to your posts if you do not refrain from insults and sarcasm. I believe I answered most of your questions already.
Professorpain 06-28-07, 02:33 PM	And also the later posts where one admits to and apologizes for sounding harsher than intended and attempts to clear up misunderstandings.:P If one of those posters later appologized for his remarks, then I certainly should have put that in there. I was just trying to demonstrate that my characterizations of the regulars was not groundless (everyone is free to flip through the old threads to determine this for themselves however). I was just giving people a taste of samplings to make my point.
heretic888 06-28-07, 02:38 PM	No they were not taking out of context at all. In fact many of them are shown in their entirety. I made sure of this when I read and posted them. That's a bold-faced lie and you know it. You deliberately took bits and pieces from a half-dozen posts, not in their entirety, just to support your fallacious arguments. Furthermore, I may add, you didn't even show what each of these posts were in response to. And this still doesn't change the fact that you created a thread whose purpose was to ridicule and thumbing your nose up at other posters. I have yet to see a single regular here create their own thread dedicating to saying "nyah nyah nyah!" at people that disagree with them. That someone like you is trying to adopt this facade of moral indignation --- on a thread created to ridicule and spite others --- is, quite frankly, absurd and laughable.
heretic888 06-28-07, 02:48 PM	Heretic I am happy to have a dialogue with you about this, but I will not respond to your posts if you do not refrain from insults and sarcasm. I see no reason to engage in such a discussion until you formally apologize and retract the content of your original post. I believe I answered most of your questions already. Well, you've certainly made a lot of vague assertions but nothing I would consider as a satisfactory explanation. I still don't understand why anybody but perhaps first-timers even needs something like a "starting point" in roleplaying particular concepts. Nor do I see how "stereotypes" can encourage diversity or "whiggle room", since by their very nature they deliberately squelch and deny individuality. Now, I suspect that your own methods don't vary that much from my own, regardless of the terminology you use to describe them. I suspect you started this thread not because of any genuine disagreement in methodology, but as a chance to thumb your nose at some of the comments made in the recent Geisha class thread. The point I've been trying to make is that cultural stereotypes are fine to play if that's what the player wants to do. I simply take umbrage at the notion that Oriental Adventures should be restricted to such stereotypes, that a richer diversity of roleplaying mythos is not just as valid. That's why I favor the ToB classes over the Complete X Ninja and Samurai. The former favor diversity and individuality in design, whereas the latter essentially pigeonhole players into predetermined roles.
Professorpain 06-28-07, 02:50 PM	That's a bold-faced lie and you know it. You deliberately took bits and pieces from a half-dozen posts, not in their entirety, just to support your fallacious arguments. Furthermore, I may add, you didn't even show what each of these posts were in response to. And this still doesn't change the fact that you created a thread whose purpose was to ridicule and thumbing your nose up at other posters. I have yet to see a single regular here create their own thread dedicating to saying "nyah nyah nyah!" at people that disagree with them. That someone like you is trying to adopt this facade of moral indignation --- on a thread created to ridicule and spite others --- is, quite frankly, absurd and laughable. People are free to look at the geisha thread and the ninja steroetype thread to determine if my posts were out of context. I happen to think they were not. I only posted them because someone suggested that I should do so if I want to be taken seriously.
Professorpain 06-28-07, 03:07 PM	I see no reason to engage in such a discussion until you formally apologize and retract the content of your original post. Well, you've certainly made a lot of vague assertions but nothing I would consider as a satisfactory explanation. I still don't understand why anybody but perhaps first-timers even needs something like a "starting point" in roleplaying particular concepts. Nor do I see how "stereotypes" can encourage diversity or "whiggle room", since by their very nature they deliberately squelch and deny individuality. Now, I suspect that your own methods don't vary that much from my own, regardless of the terminology you use to describe them. I suspect you started this thread not because of any genuine disagreement in methodology, but as a chance to thumb your nose at some of the comments made in the recent Geisha class thread. The point I've been trying to make is that cultural stereotypes are fine to play if that's what the player wants to do. I simply take umbrage at the notion that Oriental Adventures should be restricted to such stereotypes, that a richer diversity of roleplaying mythos is not just as valid. That's why I favor the ToB classes over the Complete X Ninja and Samurai. The former favor diversity and individuality in design, whereas the latter essentially pigeonhole players into predetermined roles. I do appologize if my words have insulted or hurt anyone, that was not my goal. However, I will not retract my post since it was my intention to be mildy critical of this board for the way it treats non-regulars and people with passing knowledge of asian culture. These 'starting' points establish the atmosphere of the game. They place it within a genre that is accessable to most players. I find it helpful before any campaign for me and my players to discuss what the general concept or theme is going to be. Some people prefer not to do this, but we do. And we find it helps stimulate creativity. Stereotypes provide a simple model for people who really know very little about a culture. A starting point. For instance one player might have seen shogun and really liked the way the samurai were paragons of law and honor (to a fault). He may use that as a starting point for his character concept, because he lacks detailed knowledge of japan or japanese cultures and is hoping to get more of a pulp fantasy experience out of the campaign. In addition characters like this help to establish a theme or mood in the game that is recognizable and easy to feed off of for ideas. In the end, as I have said, it really boils to down to making the game exciting and fun. Another thing about stereotypes to acknowledge, while they do inhibit individuality and are often gross oversimplifications, they are also in many cases realistic reactions to cultures that we do not understand. There are usually elements of truth to them. Which is why they become a sort of short hand to reference a particular culture. Me and my fiance encounter this every day with one another. I have had come to the conclusion that even though I am an individual and not like all other Americans, I do possess very clear traits (revealed by interacting with a foriegn culture) that are unique or common to Americans in general. The same for her. She possesses many characteristics that are common to her culture. So while we should not rely on stereotypes, they can be useful at times, and do often have more than a little truth to them. Of course the game should not be restricted to stereotypes (I do not think that I ever suggested this). It should be what the groups wants. I tried running some historically and culturally accurate foreign settings and my players were confused as well as bored. They made it clear that they came to the table of my Middle East campaign because it was an opportunity for them to revisit bad hollywood movies of their childhood (and of course Alladin). I made the mistake of making my game too accurate for the players to handle. Now if the group was composed of middle east scholars who wanted an accurate mid east setting, it would have been fine for me to accomodate them. but they were not, and I simply ended up boring people.
madmonk 06-28-07, 03:19 PM	OK, so what was the purpose of this thread again? The OP's name for his thread is... uhm... strange. If history is to be darned, why use historical figures? And certainly most, if not all, people that frequent the OA boards don't diametrically oppose what you are saying. "popkult be darned, ninjas will be historically accurate and geishas will be entertainers only." Notice that if you make ALL geishas assassins, or adventurers, that will cease to be a good diguise. No one will hire one, since they are evil assassins. Kunoichi disguised as Geishas because of the later's ability to enter some places and be with some people that a male bruiser warrior or scary assassin will find difficult to. And about ninjas... well, in my campaign there are samurai clan vassal families of ninjas, autonomous secretive mercenary ninja clans, solitaire ninja masters (for hire or not), and even supernatural or fantasy race ninjas. They can be any alignment. Who cares? I. Historically accurate? No. Should I make a post about how I play my ninjas in my campaign and try to bother the purists telling them that my fantasy ninjas rock harder than their historical ones? 9 HELLS NO! My two ugly copers
Azzy 06-28-07, 03:26 PM	People are free to look at the geisha thread and the ninja steroetype thread to determine if my posts were out of context. I happen to think they were not. I only posted them because someone suggested that I should do so if I want to be taken seriously. I'm sorry, but I find that rather irresponsible in debate. If you feel you are correct in your assertion, then go the distance and provide your sources (in this case, direct links to both the thread in question and to the specific posts). And while I will not speak for the others, I will point out that quote from me is really out of context. To see why, I'll show you: The quote that you show from me in post #34 of this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12891667&postcount=34) reads: "And you argument is kinda silly. Even in we had a baker "crust-slinger" pop culture trope to start from, an geisha-assassin would be more akin to making a base class baker that shoots lasers from its eyes and has nothing with the pop culture trope outside of the name." That quote is from the Geisha thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=864122) started by Sleepwalker13666. The quoted text is only a small part of my post (post #87 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12877540&postcount=87)). The post that it comes from isn't even in response to Sleepwalker13666 (I do respond to him in post #56 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12773039&postcount=56)), but to another individual's (Alyss) post (post #84 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12875196&postcount=84)). It should be noted that in my response to Sleepwalker13666 (the original poster), while I criticize the concept of a "geisha-assassin" as a specialized assassin base class, I do note that I'm not opposed to the "geisha-assassin" as a character concept. My biggest criticisms to Sleepwalker13666 is A) using the name of a mundane profession (and comparing it to a tailor) to make a specialized class (thus pigeonholing the profession into a single class), and B) making such a narrowly defined concept into a base class rather than a prestige class (or simply multiclassing different base classes and/or extant PrCs). So, yeah, I've got to say that your quote was a bit out of context.
Sleepwalker13666 06-28-07, 03:30 PM	Sleepwalker's class received a lot less venom because he's (? sorry if I get your gender wrong?) a polite poster, although the discussion in his thread pretty much representative of the semi-thread-rot that occurs in the wake of an assertion of real-world fact and subsequent debate/citations/corrections. Yep, I'm male. I know my thread took some hits, but I rolled with the punches, stated my case and was very much open to suggestions, and I think because of that the flames died down a lot quicker. I made the mistake of not properly representing my geisha class, and I own that fault, while the "Geisha Assassin" is a stereotype we have all heard, my post had initially lumped them all together as assassins, which was inaccurate to not only the history, but even my initial class concept. But then I actually find negative feedback to be helpful, it at least lets me know what I'm doing wrong.
Zaver 06-28-07, 04:46 PM	You do realise that the guy toting wikipedia is an example of the kind of person that comes "here proclaiming misconceptions, fiction, half truths, and falsehoods as indelible facts" and gets our collective dander up, don't you? Yes. I was just pointing out that wikipedia is synonymus with "I have no idea what I'm talking about but a five year old with access to the internet tells me..."
Nobunaga Oda 06-28-07, 05:53 PM	I just started a new Oriental campaign. Having viewed many of the posts on the Oriental Adventures board, I have noticed that many here are especially rigid about making the classes as historically accurate as possible. I have decided to throw off the shackles of historical accuracy in my game and make the ninjas, geisha and samurai interesting and fun. Ninjas will all where black and vanish in puffs of smoke. Samurai will be suicidal in there pursuit of honor and geisha will all be high class prostitutes. History be darned! Then you might as well renamed the Geisha to "Classy Prostitutes", Samurais as "Suicidarais" and Ninjas as "Fakinja" :p! Itīs not about being historical "right", itīs about making cultural sense! If I played a Knight - Who came from a common family, and is a Druid, and with no connections whatoever from a noble family/whatever, would it be a "knight"? Nope it would be something else that someone called "knight". I see you walking these road. Well, suit yourself, I hope you enjoy your sessions!
Professorpain 06-28-07, 07:16 PM	I'm sorry, but I find that rather irresponsible in debate. If you feel you are correct in your assertion, then go the distance and provide your sources (in this case, direct links to both the thread in question and to the specific posts). And while I will not speak for the others, I will point out that quote from me is really out of context. To see why, I'll show you: The quote that you show from me in post #34 of this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12891667&postcount=34) reads: "And you argument is kinda silly. Even in we had a baker "crust-slinger" pop culture trope to start from, an geisha-assassin would be more akin to making a base class baker that shoots lasers from its eyes and has nothing with the pop culture trope outside of the name." That quote is from the Geisha thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=864122) started by Sleepwalker13666. The quoted text is only a small part of my post (post #87 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12877540&postcount=87)). The post that it comes from isn't even in response to Sleepwalker13666 (I do respond to him in post #56 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12773039&postcount=56)), but to another individual's (Alyss) post (post #84 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12875196&postcount=84)). It should be noted that in my response to Sleepwalker13666 (the original poster), while I criticize the concept of a "geisha-assassin" as a specialized assassin base class, I do note that I'm not opposed to the "geisha-assassin" as a character concept. My biggest criticisms to Sleepwalker13666 is A) using the name of a mundane profession (and comparing it to a tailor) to make a specialized class (thus pigeonholing the profession into a single class), and B) making such a narrowly defined concept into a base class rather than a prestige class (or simply multiclassing different base classes and/or extant PrCs). So, yeah, I've got to say that your quote was a bit out of context. I dont think so because I never said it was connected with sleepwalkers post at all. i just thought that your statement by itself was telling.
Azzy 06-28-07, 09:46 PM	I dont think so because I never said it was connected with sleepwalkers post at all. i just thought that your statement by itself was telling. That quote that you find so telling essentially says that just because there's a pop culture trope ("Y") about a historical profession ("X"), there is no justification to make a PrC ("Z") that doesn't reflect either "X" or "Y."
Azzy 06-28-07, 09:56 PM	Yep, I'm male. I know my thread took some hits, but I rolled with the punches, stated my case and was very much open to suggestions, and I think because of that the flames died down a lot quicker. I made the mistake of not properly representing my geisha class, and I own that fault, while the "Geisha Assassin" is a stereotype we have all heard, my post had initially lumped them all together as assassins, which was inaccurate to not only the history, but even my initial class concept. But then I actually find negative feedback to be helpful, it at least lets me know what I'm doing wrong. Hey, Sleepwalker13666. You've been really cool is response to criticism leveled at your geisha class this entire time. Now I've got a request to make of you.... Please expand (in your thread, of course) the fluff behind the concept: elaborate (with in-game explanations) on how this geisha class fits in with the regular profession, why this particular skill set developed among the geisha, what do normal geisha refer to this particular specialist as (to differentiate between them and normal geisha), etc.
Azzy 06-28-07, 10:04 PM	Yes. I was just pointing out that wikipedia is synonymus with "I have no idea what I'm talking about but a five year old with access to the internet tells me..." Okay, I didn't understand where you were going with your original post and I was hoping that you hadn't misunderstood the intent of my post. Thanks for clearing that up. :) In defence of Wikipedia, it is useful if you don't make it your primary or sole source of information, and you always check the citations of sources. I think the problem comes when people rely to heavily on it or believe that it's infallible.
Sleepwalker13666 06-28-07, 10:09 PM	Hey, Sleepwalker13666. You've been really cool is response to criticism leveled at your geisha class this entire time. Now I've got a request to make of you.... Please expand (in your thread, of course) the fluff behind the concept: elaborate (with in-game explanations) on how this geisha class fits in with the regular profession, why this particular skill set developed among the geisha, what do normal geisha refer to this particular specialist as (to differentiate between them and normal geisha), etc. Actually I recently did change my post to say that only certain geisha are trained like that, most are experts only those that show exceptional qualities take that class (as written), but continue to maintain their title of geisha, and occasional dabble in their original profession, :D
Zaver 06-28-07, 10:59 PM	Okay, I didn't understand where you were going with your original post and I was hoping that you hadn't misunderstood the intent of my post. Thanks for clearing that up. :) In defence of Wikipedia, it is useful if you don't make it your primary or sole source of information, and you always check the citations of sources. I think the problem comes when people rely to heavily on it or believe that it's infallible. Yeah, I was unclear. It's also true that wikipedia can be useful and often times is accurate. Mostly when Stephen Colbert or my brother aren't involved.
The_Shaman 06-29-07, 07:22 AM	Ugh, there should be a verbal wrestling ring here or something. Anyway, everyone do as they want, but the "History be darned, ninjas and geisha will rock in my campaign" title sounds like a darn effective challenge on these boards. And on an unrelated to OA but related to wrestling note: R.I.P. Christopher Benoit. You will be missed. :(
sambudak 06-29-07, 07:53 AM	I do appologize if my words have insulted or hurt anyone, that was not my goal. However, I will not retract my post since it was my intention to be mildy critical of this board for the way it treats non-regulars and people with passing knowledge of asian culture. These 'starting' points establish the atmosphere of the game. They place it within a genre that is accessable to most players. I find it helpful before any campaign for me and my players to discuss what the general concept or theme is going to be. Some people prefer not to do this, but we do. And we find it helps stimulate creativity. Stereotypes provide a simple model for people who really know very little about a culture. A starting point. For instance one player might have seen shogun and really liked the way the samurai were paragons of law and honor (to a fault). He may use that as a starting point for his character concept, because he lacks detailed knowledge of japan or japanese cultures and is hoping to get more of a pulp fantasy experience out of the campaign. In addition characters like this help to establish a theme or mood in the game that is recognizable and easy to feed off of for ideas. In the end, as I have said, it really boils to down to making the game exciting and fun. Another thing about stereotypes to acknowledge, while they do inhibit individuality and are often gross oversimplifications, they are also in many cases realistic reactions to cultures that we do not understand. There are usually elements of truth to them. Which is why they become a sort of short hand to reference a particular culture. Me and my fiance encounter this every day with one another. I have had come to the conclusion that even though I am an individual and not like all other Americans, I do possess very clear traits (revealed by interacting with a foriegn culture) that are unique or common to Americans in general. The same for her. She possesses many characteristics that are common to her culture. So while we should not rely on stereotypes, they can be useful at times, and do often have more than a little truth to them. Of course the game should not be restricted to stereotypes (I do not think that I ever suggested this). It should be what the groups wants. I tried running some historically and culturally accurate foreign settings and my players were confused as well as bored. They made it clear that they came to the table of my Middle East campaign because it was an opportunity for them to revisit bad hollywood movies of their childhood (and of course Alladin). I made the mistake of making my game too accurate for the players to handle. Now if the group was composed of middle east scholars who wanted an accurate mid east setting, it would have been fine for me to accomodate them. but they were not, and I simply ended up boring people. YOU can't have a campaign where YOUR players have any sort of fun based on what THEY want to play. It's not historically accurate or culturally authentic. Because you know Rokugan is not a made-up fantasy world YOU paid for and can use any way YOU might want. So don't try. Just tell YOUR players that it is illegal and immoral to use stereotypes of the sort THEY want because its not an approved use of D&D. No... shoosha... don't try to advocate for any sort of game based on what you think is fun. Certainly don't try to find anyone else on this particular board that thinks Rokugan is a made-up place that has no more cultural and historical authenticity than you might want it to have. Just asking or stating that you don't have a preference for "accuracy" without apologizing for it will only bring you woe. All that aside I hope you and your players have a good time. I'm not up on Rokugan as a setting( Kara-Tur is the last place I did any OA campaigning), but I've heard good things about it.
The_Shaman 06-29-07, 08:29 AM	Like I said in the previous thread, do whatever you want in your game. It should have ended here. Sambudak, I will have to ask you to stop blowing your own horn - or Professorpain's, for that matter. He is big enough to defend himself, and imo all that needed to be said on the topic (which was not exactly well-phrased to begin with) has already been said. Please cut back on the vitriol, everyone.
sambudak 06-29-07, 09:23 AM	It should have ended here. Sambudak, I will have to ask you to stop blowing your own horn - or Professorpain's, for that matter. He is big enough to defend himself, and imo all that needed to be said on the topic (which was not exactly well-phrased to begin with) has already been said. Please cut back on the vitriol, everyone. You're certainly entitled to your opinion.
WizO_Sith 06-29-07, 10:50 AM	This thread is too flamey to be allowed to continue and it's not time-effective for me to edit the thread (because we'd be down to a handfull of posts). This topic will be locked. As this is the *SECOND* thread on this topic that's had to be locked due to flame wars, I'm going to put a two-week ban on the topic as a cooling-off period. So the Ninja/Geisha cultural authenticity and or realism topic is a no-no untill 7/13 or later. *Click*