Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DRdrizzt13beauOW 04-01-07, 11:32 PM	just wondering if there has been any 3.5ed update done to these Prestige Classes. I know that Dragon 318 did a OA update but wasnt sure if these are included and i havent been able to find #318 yet. Or were they remade on the forums or in any other source i could have missed?
calronmoonflower 04-02-07, 01:03 AM	To my knowledge no. I bought that issue of Dragon and it didn't have an update on those two. Also what makes you think that they need an update.
Ranger REG 04-02-07, 03:19 AM	While there is no 3.5e update for those two PrCs, you may want to check the OA errata. AFAIC, they're still usable under 3.5e rules.
DRdrizzt13beauOW 04-02-07, 04:06 PM	Also what makes you think that they need an update. I'm not saying that there NEEDS to be one, was just curious if there was one to compare too. Looking at the Blade Dancer i think its kind of weird that there isnt some knd of spell advancement when that is a base requirement. I understand its a melee class, but maybe 2-3 lvls or so. The only thing that i can relate back to the spell requirment is the enchant blade ability, which doesnt take any spell slots, but just gives the sword extra power... IDK just seemed a little out of place. with Iaijutsu master i was just wondering if anything would have been changed to 3.5 I persoanlly dont like how Canny Defense uses INT mod and not WIS. I fell WIS is more connected to the ki effect then INT. Other then that i have no probs with the classes
Aktariel 04-28-07, 08:39 PM	Iaijutsu is not about ki, persay. It's about... focus. [Now why you add your Charisma modifier to damage I never understood...] Basically, Iaijutsu Master is the OA equivalent of the Duelist, just with "oriental" abilities. Ki never really enters into Iaijutsu unless you're a monk. [In which case you shouldn't be taking this class anyway.] It's about drawing a sword really fast and hitting really hard. That said, the only 3.5 update that some people might claim to be necessary would be to make it so you can only add a maximum of your IM class level in Int bonus to your AC [just like the 3.5 Duelist], but I personally wouldn't - cherry picking was what made 3.0 so much fun. That, and if you use Rokugan rules, you can only have one prestige class anyway, so it doesn't matter.
narukagami 04-28-07, 08:59 PM	Iaijutsu is not about ki, persay. It's about... focus. Which could also be argued to be Wis based. It's about drawing a sword really fast and hitting really hard. Actually, its about drawing really fast and catching your opponent unprepared. ;) That said, the only 3.5 update that some people might claim to be necessary would be to make it so you can only add a maximum of your IM class level in Int bonus to your AC [just like the 3.5 Duelist], but I personally wouldn't - cherry picking was what made 3.0 so much fun. That, and if you use Rokugan rules, you can only have one prestige class anyway, so it doesn't matter. Its hardly a broken thing to allow Int to AC without the class level restriction, that restriction is one of the things that make Duelists rather weak IMHO. "Light Fighters" don't work very well unless they've got a load of magic items (which magic armor is cheaper than anyway) or they have abilities like Canny Defense that allow other stats to be added to AC. And even then, they still get the short end of the stick. On the other hand, armor was worn for a reason, so maybe its rightfully so. The IM suffers from horrid M.A.D., on top of being a one-trick pony. Mechanically, its not a great class. You can probably fix that somewhat by ruling many things revolving around it and iaijutsu as Wis based.
Aktariel 04-28-07, 10:58 PM	IDHMBIFOMATM, so I can't take a look at the class, but from what I remember, yes, it is very much a one trick pony, has a lot of dead levels, and sucks at anything approximating a straight-up fight. But it's still fun. Remind me about the MAD? It needs... Str/Dex/Cha/Int/Con? How would making things based on wisdom help? Unless you got your DM to houserule that Iaijutsu Focus was Wis based, and changed canny defense to Insightful Defense. [which mine probably would, and it would make more sense anway... you don't have to be charismatic to sunder objects and hit people really fast/hard.] Oh, and I would agree with you about full INT to AC hardly being broken.
Aktariel 04-28-07, 11:00 PM	<snip> Cursed Double Post
narukagami 04-28-07, 11:08 PM	But it's still fun. It definatly is, its can excel in certain types of games, though. Its just not "diverse" enough to be considered worthwhile outside of certain niche campaigns. Remind me about the MAD? It needs... Str/Dex/Cha/Int/Con? How would making things based on wisdom help? Unless you got your DM to houserule that Iaijutsu Focus was Wis based, and changed canny defense to Insightful Defense. [which mine probably would, and it would make more sense anway... you don't have to be charismatic to sunder objects and hit people really fast/hard.] Yes, what I mean is if you houserule IF to be wis based, and have all the IF's stat dependent abilities Wis bases (with the exception of weapon finesse, of course) you can ease up on the MAD significantly.
DRdrizzt13beauOW 04-29-07, 12:03 PM	yeah i think im going to houserule it for WIS, if i tweak it ill post it up here so u can see.
Aktariel 04-29-07, 06:59 PM	Houserule Iaijutsu Focus to use Wis, while you're at it. I might take a stab at rebuilding when I get my books back in front of me.
DRdrizzt13beauOW 04-30-07, 02:20 AM	Ok here is my house-ruled version of Iaijutsu Master, everythig that i changed will be in red with the original in (..) when not to long for comparison. Iaijutsu Master Requirements Alignment: Any lawful Base Attack Bonus: +5 (+6) Skills: Iaijutsu Focus 8 ranks (9 ranks) Feats: Improved Initiative, Quick Draw, Weapon Focus (katana) Skills Balance, Climb, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Iaijustsu Focus(Wis)(Cha), Jumo, Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Tumble. Skill Points Per Level:4 + Int Mod. ***I've kept all lvl. progression the same (so far):P As in terms of BAB and Saves*** LVL 1) Weapon Finesse, Canny Defense 2) Lightning Blade 3) Bonus Feat (Dead lvl) 4) Iaijutsu Mastery I (Bonus Feat) 5) Strike From The Void 6) Bonus Feat (Dead lvl) 7) One Strike, Two Cuts (Dead lvl) 8)Iaijutsu Mastery II (One Strike, Two Cuts) 9) Bonus Feat 10) Strike With No Thought Class Features Weapon & Armor Proficiency: All simple and martial weapons (Including Katana). No armor or shield proficiency. Weapon Finesse (Ex): An Iaijutsu Master may use their Dex Mod. instead of the Str Mod. for any attack rolls made with a Katana. Canny Defense (Ex): When not wearing any armor, Iaijutsu Master's add their (Int. Mod.) Wisdom Mod. (if any) to their AC bonus on top of their Dex. Mod (when weilding a Katana.) This Bonus is lost when caught flat-footed. Lightning Blade (Ex): An Iaijust Master adds theirWis. Modto their Init. checks on top of the Dex. bonus (if any) Bonus Feats: at lvl's 3, 6, and 9 an Iaijutsu Master gains a bonus feat (in addition to their normal feat progression) off of the following list: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Whirlwind Attack, Improved Critical (Katana), Skill Focus: (Iaijutsu Focus), Power Attack, Cleave, Greater Cleave, Combat Reflexes. Iaijutsu Mastery I (Ex): An Iaijutsu Master may take 10 on any Iaijutsu Focus check when made during an iaijutsu duel only. Also the Master gains the Lightning Reflexes & Weapon Specialization (Katana) feats Strike From The Void (Ex): An Iaijutsu master adds their Wisdom Mod (Cha. Mod) to each damage die gained from the use of a Successful Iaijutsu Focus check when wielding a Katana only One Strike, Two Cuts (Ex): An Iaijutsu Master can make two attacks with a Katana as a standard action. This also allows the Master to attack twice in the strike phase of an Iaijutsu Duel. ***Still in the works, see below responses, and feel free to comment on the new idea*** Iaijutsu Mastery II (Ex): An Iaijutsu master may take 10 on any Iaijutsu Focus now in normal melee combat, even if distracted. In addition, treat the damge dealt with a successful Iaijutsu Focus check as the next level higher on the damage chart (max 10d6 extra damage.) Also the Master adds +2 to Init. checks. Strike With No Thought (Ex): If an Iaijutsu master begins combat (not an Iaijustu duel) in melee range from an opponent(s), a free suprise round is given to the Master regardless if the Masters presence is known or not. The only action allowed is an attack action using a Katana. When used in conjunction with One Strike, Two Cuts if multiple opponents are in range the 2nd attack may be used on another opponent in range. comments, suggestions? ^.^ added in some new things so there are no "dead" levels anymore.
Aktariel 04-30-07, 03:28 AM	Ok here is my house-ruled version of Iaijutsu Master, everythig that i changed will be in red with the original in (..) when not to long for comparison. Iaijutsu Master Requirements Alignment: Any lawful Base Attack Bonus: +5 (+6) Skills: Iaijutsu Focus 8 ranks (9 ranks) Feats: Improved Initiative, Quick Draw, Weapon Focus (katana) Skills Balance, Climb, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Iaijustsu Focus(Wis)(Cha), Jumo, Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Tumble. Skill Points Per Level:4 + Int Mod. This is all just fine. LVL 1) Weapon Finesse, Canny Defense 2) Lightning Blade 3) Bonus Feat (Dead lvl) 4) Iaijutsu Mastery I (Bonus Feat) 5) Strike From The Void 6) Bonus Feat (Dead lvl) 7) One Strike, Two Cuts (Dead lvl) 8)Iaijutsu Mastery II (One Strike, Two Cuts) 9) Bonus Feat 10) Strike With No Thought Class Features Weapon & Armor Proficiency: All simple and martial weapons (Including Katana). No armor or shield proficiency. Weapon Finesse (Ex): An Iaijutsu Master (may) will use their Dex Mod. instead of the Str Mod. for any attack rolls made with a Katana. Why am I being forced to substitute my Dex mod on my attack rolls? Granted, I probably wouldn't be in this prestige class if I didn't have a good or great Dex, but still. Why am I being forced? Canny Defense (Ex): When not wearing any armor, Iaijutsu Master's add their (Int. Mod.) Wisdom Mod. (if any) to their Dex. Mod (when weilding a Katana.) This Bonus is lost when caught flat-footed. Hrm. Why am I adding my Wis mod to my Dex mod instead of my AC? Lightning Blade (Ex): An Iaijust Master adds their Wis. Mod to their Init. checks on top of the Dex. bonus (if any) Wait a minute - if I'm already adding my Wis mod to my dex mod, why do we need this ability? And, Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get to add my Wis mod to my attack rolls now, too? (As per that forced Weapon Finesse up there.) In fact, wherever I use my Dex mod, I now get to use my Wis and my Dex mod? Skill checks, for example? Either way, this needs rewording. Bonus Feats: at lvl's 3, 6, and 9 an Iaijutsu Master gains a bonus feat (in addition to their normal feat progression) off of the following list: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Whirlwind Attack, Improved Critical (Katana), Skill Focus: (Iaijutsu Focus), Power Attack, Cleave, Greater Cleave, Combat Reflexes. No worries. Iaijutsu Mastery I (Ex): An Iaijutsu Master may take 10 on any Iaijutsu Focus check. Also the Master gains the Lightning Reflexes & Weapon Specialization (Katana) feats Not really broken. Not yet. Strike From The Void (Ex): An Iaijutsu master adds their Wisdom Mod (Cha. Mod) to each damage die gained from the use of a Successful Iaijutsu Focus check when wielding a Katana only Another natural extension of replacing Int and Cha with Wis. One Strike, Two Cuts (Ex): An Iaijutsu Master can make two attacks with a Katana as a standard action. This also allows the Master to attack twice in the strike phase of an Iaijutsu Duel. This ability must be declared before the attack roll is made. This ability has always made me wonder: is the second attack iterative or not? In any case, why do I need to decide if I'm going to attack again before I attack at all? What if I drop him with the first attack and someone else is in range? Is the second attack wasted? I'm not sure this addition was necessary; it's rather... limiting? Iaijutsu Mastery II (Ex): An Iaijutsu master may take 20 on any Iaijutsu Focus check. In addition, treat the damge dealt with a successful Iaijutsu Focus check as the next level higher on the damage chart (max 10d6 extra damage.) Also the Master adds +2 to Init. checks. Some might cry "Broken!" I personally don't mind, but is there a precendent for allowing someone to take 20 even in combat or stressful situations? At any rate, I pity the poor bastard facing me in an Iaijutsu duel. Strike With No Thought (Ex): If an Iaijutsu master begins combat (not an Iaijustu duel) in melee range from an opponent(s), a free suprise round is given to the Master regardless if the Masters presence is known or not. The only action allowed is an attack action using a Katana. When used in conjunction with One Strike, Two Cuts if multiple opponents are in range the 2nd attack may be used on another opponent in range. Looks fine. Not a bad job, overall. Needs some clarifying and maybe a look at Iaijutsu Mastery II, but not bad. Just my :twocents:
DRdrizzt13beauOW 04-30-07, 11:27 AM	LOL this is what a 2am post gets you =P Why am I being forced to substitute my Dex mod on my attack rolls? Granted, I probably wouldn't be in this prestige class if I didn't have a good or great Dex, but still. Why am I being forced? once again, LOL yeah i fixed that. Hrm. Why am I adding my Wis mod to my Dex mod instead of my AC? ...i was tired lol fixed. Wait a minute - if I'm already adding my Wis mod to my dex mod, why do we need this ability? And, Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get to add my Wis mod to my attack rolls now, too? (As per that forced Weapon Finesse up there.) In fact, wherever I use my Dex mod, I now get to use my Wis and my Dex mod? Skill checks, for example? Either way, this needs rewording. Shhhhh...i was sleepy, fixed from the pervious two. Not really broken. Not yet. i changed it to only effect Iaijutsu duels only now, i'll explain more when i get down to Iai Mastery II This ability has always made me wonder: is the second attack iterative or not? In any case, why do I need to decide if I'm going to attack again before I attack at all? What if I drop him with the first attack and someone else is in range? Is the second attack wasted? I'm not sure this addition was necessary; it's rather... limiting? I changed it so you do not need to delcare anymore, but still... it is rather confusing. I feel that it could be changed so that you deal 2 attacks with 1 roll, and the 2nd damgae die is -2 less then the original hit. That way it relates mroe to the "two cuts" part of the ability. This does seem like it could be broken if every hit landed counted twice. By level 20 you could possibly be landing 8 attacks in a full round action... hmmm idk. Let's decide on what we want this to do 1st before i fully change it. I'm going to look at the OA errata after classes to see is this is mentioned at all as well. Some might cry "Broken!" I personally don't mind, but is there a precendent for allowing someone to take 20 even in combat or stressful situations? At any rate, I pity the poor bastard facing me in an Iaijutsu duel. On reading it more it does seem somewhat broken. And you are right I can't recall something giving you a +20 in combat (if my memory serves) so i changed it so that the auto 10 is now combat capable in any situation not just Iai duels. Even if i kept the +20 it really doesnt effect much as the max damage was 9d6 extra and with this ability its 10d6...so idk.... =P Any more insight with this revision?
DRdrizzt13beauOW 05-01-07, 12:25 AM	and here is the answer to "One Strike, Two Cuts" p. 42, One Strike, Two Cuts: After the first sentence, add "The character makes the second attack at a –5 penalty from her base attack bonus." that was hiding in the OA errata.^^ ...i feel it doesnt fit with the anme of the ability, it isnt just one strike its 2... but this does clarify a lot of confusion.
Kalis Atrud 05-01-07, 04:47 AM	Even though the Iaijutsu Master has quite a bit of MAD, I still prefer the Int+Cha version over the wisdom version. Charisma(+int) are important stats for two iconic Rokugan Iaijutsu Masters, Doji Hoturi and Kakita Toshimoko. Doji Hoturi is basically the standard anime prettyboy swordmaster, and Toshimoko is basically a more aged version of that.
DRdrizzt13beauOW 05-02-07, 12:15 AM	yeah for "fluff" it is more importent, but to play it.... its kind of rough str/dex/cha/int needed for this class.. i wanted something more doable and not having to be bt stat enahncment heavy on gear. i think str/dex/wis is much more managable. The reason i picked wis more over Int, is the book refers to the Iai Masters using ki which for mnk and ninja are all Wis based, not Int or Cha.
Lord Gwydion 05-02-07, 01:15 AM	You know, if you really think about it, Str isn't that important for an Iaijutsu duelist. Yes, it's important for an adventuring warrior type who goes and fights monsters and stuff, but really, a dedicated duelist could do without the Str. I realize it provides the bonus to hit as well as damage at lower levels, before the katana finesse thing comes in, but really, considering the additional damage provided by IF, the damage bonus from Str is gonna be minimal (likely +1 or +2 at best before magic is used to up the scores), and the bonus to hit is only useful at lower levels, as Dex is likely to be higher than Str. So if we're talking about a dedicated duelist--where typically you only fight for one round, you can do without a huge Str bonus and instead focus just on the Dex, Int and Cha.
DRdrizzt13beauOW 05-02-07, 08:45 AM	yeah i would agree if that was meant strickly for NPC's... but how often will that happen in normal adventure? Iaijutsu focus is strong, but only usable once per fight. I want this calsss to me more frontline then situational combat
Kalis Atrud 05-02-07, 01:20 PM	I don't know. The acrobatic backstab skill trick could get you another iaijutsu strike per combat, or Mercurial Strike and Robilar's Gambit.
DRdrizzt13beauOW 05-02-07, 03:39 PM	I don't know. The acrobatic backstab skill trick could get you another iaijutsu strike per combat, or Mercurial Strike and Robilar's Gambit. yeah but thats just adding more and more prereqs to make this more then a 1 shot deal
narukagami 05-02-07, 03:57 PM	I don't know. The acrobatic backstab skill trick could get you another iaijutsu strike per combat, or Mercurial Strike and Robilar's Gambit. But even then you're still wasting actions re-sheathing your sword. Don't forget the line that specifically rules it only applies to the attack that immediately follows the weapon being drawn.
Kalis Atrud 05-03-07, 04:55 AM	But even then you're still wasting actions re-sheathing your sword. Don't forget the line that specifically rules it only applies to the attack that immediately follows the weapon being drawn. I'm not forgetting it(though when talking about iaijutsu focus in combat on page 82, it does say that the requirement for normal combat is a flat-footed opponent and that you draw your weapon in the same round you strike, which I can safely say most people ignore). Though whether it is truly wasting actions does depend on what the difference is between your full attack and iaijutsu output. Also Acrobatic Backstab is an investment of two skillpoints, as a lot of iaijutsu masters probably start investing in tumble anyway.
Aceon 05-04-07, 06:40 PM	Actually, the IM is not really a one trick pony. Taking feats to enhance the utility and frequency of IF strikes in normal combat is certainly not a prerequisite for the class...just a wise choice for a player to make. There are so many ways to coerce a situation to force your foes to be flat-footed that the IM is only playable, but downright broken! :P ( I mean that in a happy-uber-damage kind of way! :) ) I haven't played an IM in a few years but am starting a new game tomorrow and will play an IM gestalt with Samurai, Monk, Duelist, Dervish, Blade Dancer and IM. I plan to take all 10 levels of IM ...yes, even with the "dead levels" I think the reason for the "dead levels" is the pure damage potential of the IM needed to be balanced out by not getting more cheese at every level. Case in point, your Crane Clane-Kakita family 1st level Samurai will gain both Diplomacy and IF as permanent class skills. With Cha as his prime stat he will try to get what he wants by making friends with whomever he encounters. If there is a fight he can win initiative and get the IF bonus dice at his first 6 levels...even before he enters the IM class. Later when he reaches IM5 (which should be at 11th level) he gains the awesome Strike from the Void and adds Cha to every bonus die. At early levels he can get a friendly caster to cast grease for him in combat. This forces a balance check for anyone with fewer than 5 ranks in balance...thus all melee foes in range will be flat footed for the IF bonus damage for as long as they remain in the greased area. Pay for a wand, give it to your ally. There are lots of feats to invest in that can make a foe flat footed. Sure it is an investment, but any time you can get your foe flat footed you can get the bonus IF dice. There are items like a blurstrike weapon, that makes your first strike every round treat foe as flat -footed. All kinds of good stuff. Me personally, I am going the attack of opportunity route. I will take Mercurial Strike and get IF every time my foe provokes an aoo. With Karmic strike that is every time he hits me. Or with Riposte I can hit him if he misses me! Before Expert Tactician got nerfed that was great for getting an extra attack when a foe is flat footed. Now I am going for Close Quarters Combat, Sweeping Strike and the like. With Sweeping Strike you can get an aoo on all foes who are still standing at the end of their round! :)
Aceon 05-04-07, 06:40 PM	By the way Where is Acrobatic Backstab?
Lord Gwydion 05-04-07, 08:01 PM	Actually, the IM is not really a one trick pony. Taking feats to enhance the utility and frequency of IF strikes in normal combat is certainly not a prerequisite for the class...just a wise choice for a player to make. There are so many ways to coerce a situation to force your foes to be flat-footed that the IM is only playable, but downright broken! :P ( I mean that in a happy-uber-damage kind of way! :) ) I haven't played an IM in a few years but am starting a new game tomorrow and will play an IM gestalt with Samurai, Monk, Duelist, Dervish, Blade Dancer and IM. I plan to take all 10 levels of IM ...yes, even with the "dead levels" I think the reason for the "dead levels" is the pure damage potential of the IM needed to be balanced out by not getting more cheese at every level. Case in point, your Crane Clane-Kakita family 1st level Samurai will gain both Diplomacy and IF as permanent class skills. With Cha as his prime stat he will try to get what he wants by making friends with whomever he encounters. If there is a fight he can win initiative and get the IF bonus dice at his first 6 levels...even before he enters the IM class. Later when he reaches IM5 (which should be at 11th level) he gains the awesome Strike from the Void and adds Cha to every bonus die. At early levels he can get a friendly caster to cast grease for him in combat. This forces a balance check for anyone with fewer than 5 ranks in balance...thus all melee foes in range will be flat footed for the IF bonus damage for as long as they remain in the greased area. Pay for a wand, give it to your ally. There are lots of feats to invest in that can make a foe flat footed. Sure it is an investment, but any time you can get your foe flat footed you can get the bonus IF dice. There are items like a blurstrike weapon, that makes your first strike every round treat foe as flat -footed. All kinds of good stuff. Me personally, I am going the attack of opportunity route. I will take Mercurial Strike and get IF every time my foe provokes an aoo. With Karmic strike that is every time he hits me. Or with Riposte I can hit him if he misses me! Before Expert Tactician got nerfed that was great for getting an extra attack when a foe is flat footed. Now I am going for Close Quarters Combat, Sweeping Strike and the like. With Sweeping Strike you can get an aoo on all foes who are still standing at the end of their round! :) So how many swords does this character carry around that he always has one to draw? :rolleyes:
DRdrizzt13beauOW 05-05-07, 10:56 AM	yeah you are going to have to resheath your sword each time and then redraw, so unless you have multiple swords you may want to rethink that.
aelryinth 05-05-07, 08:57 PM	You are also completely obliterating the 'honor' part of the iajitsu system. This is not a system about making your opponents flat footed. This is a system about facing a character in a formal duel and coming away the winner. It is not and was not ever intended to be a substitute for Sneak Attack or related abilities which are level dependent. Really, if you want to do dmg to flat footed opponents, use a class with SA dice and ignore the existence of the Iajitsu duel. The Iajitsu duel is one of the penultimate forms of honorable combat in a samurai campaign. The way much of this is being portrayed as just a tool to use against a flat-footed foe is...wrong. I would point out to you that the IM is based on Rokugan d20, and their errata defines Iajitsu usage as a full round action undertaken in a formal atmosphere...but I get the feeling it would be ignored. ===Aelryinth
Azzy 05-05-07, 11:24 PM	the requirement for normal combat is a flat-footed opponent and that you draw your weapon in the same round you strike, which I can safely say most people ignore Oh really? Thanks for speaking for the rest of us. But, uh, no. Any DM with a functioning braincell won't ignore that "draw your weapon in the same round" prerequisite.
Lord Gwydion 05-06-07, 01:54 AM	Maybe it's because the players in question are both new to d20 games so they haven't (yet) been influenced by the "must get every bonus imaginable" trend that underlies 3E D&D but... In my campaign, there is a Samurai and a Sohei, both with ranks in Iaijutsu Focus, but neither tricked out to be a super IF machine. They don't get to use IF every battle, as I stick to the "flat-footed and you have to draw/ready your weapon" thing. Sometimes, they do get to use it, but miss or roll low on the check so they don't get any bonus dice (the Sohei has only recently started to put ranks into it seeing how useful it could be for the Samurai). But neither of my players with IF complain when they don't get to use it in a battle, or if they whiff when trying to use it. For them, it's a bonus ability that is nice if they can pull it off. If not, they still dish out more damage than any other party members (because the Ranger, for flavor purposes, fights with two kukri, the "ninja" Rogue stays out of melee most of the time so not much sneak attacking, and the Wu Jen has only just learned fireball...so he's at the point where he's gonna take over the damage dealing crown soon).
Kalis Atrud 05-06-07, 02:08 AM	Oh really? Thanks for speaking for the rest of us. But, uh, no. Any DM with a functioning braincell won't ignore that "draw your weapon in the same round" prerequisite. I think you are misinterpreting what I said. If the actual requirement is that you draw the weapon in the same round and strike a flat-footed opponent(as per the rules for iaijutsu focus in normal combat on page 82), then the Samurai only needs to carry one sword and if he wins initiative he brutalizes his enemy as all his attacks qualify for iaijutsu focus use in normal combat because he drew his sword at the start. Nobody on this board goes with that interpretation(I hope anyway). Reading is fundamental. You are also completely obliterating the 'honor' part of the iajitsu system. This is not a system about making your opponents flat footed. This is a system about facing a character in a formal duel and coming away the winner. It is not and was not ever intended to be a substitute for Sneak Attack or related abilities which are level dependent. Really, if you want to do dmg to flat footed opponents, use a class with SA dice and ignore the existence of the Iajitsu duel. The Iajitsu duel is one of the penultimate forms of honorable combat in a samurai campaign. The way much of this is being portrayed as just a tool to use against a flat-footed foe is...wrong. I would point out to you that the IM is based on Rokugan d20, and their errata defines Iajitsu usage as a full round action undertaken in a formal atmosphere...but I get the feeling it would be ignored. The thing is though, that iaijutsu is basically just a tool for use against unprepared opponents. Rokugan's society can dress it up however they want, the fact is that Iaijutsu is just a glorified Sneak Attack(both RAW and in Real life). Honor has nothing to do with it. The only reason that Rokugan d20 puts the constraints on it that they do, is because they don't like the flavor of iaijutsu trained shinobi catching Crane duelists with their hakama down and getting the stacking bonuses of sneak attack and iaijutsu.
calronmoonflower 05-06-07, 03:48 AM	Iaijutsu Focus is a tool like a sword. Whether it is used honorably is up to the user. Also, why is it dishonorable to use it in combat after your opponent has a chance to act? It would be far worse to use it before your opponent has had a chance to react. If you really want to use it after combat has begun try Martial Stance from the Book of Nine Swords to get the maneuver Sapphire Nightmare Blade. you need a good rank in concentration to put it off, but it would allow you to use it in combat even if your opponent wins initiative.
Azzy 05-06-07, 09:04 AM	I think you are misinterpreting what I said. If the actual requirement is that you draw the weapon in the same round and strike a flat-footed opponent(as per the rules for iaijutsu focus in normal combat on page 82), then the Samurai only needs to carry one sword and if he wins initiative he brutalizes his enemy as all his attacks qualify for iaijutsu focus use in normal combat because he drew his sword at the start. Nobody on this board goes with that interpretation(I hope anyway). Reading is fundamental. Right.... But in reading the rules (like the other two paragraphs under Iaijutsu Strikes In Normal Combat, as well as under the skill, etc.), it requires a stretch in logic to interpret the rules suggest that the IF bonus damage applies to any attack other than the one immediately drawn from the scabbard. I don't think you see that interpretation because it's such a stretch of logic to glean such an interpretation from the rules. Understanding that such an interpretation is so ungainly obtuse as I never even considered it until now, I think it was natural that I assumed you meant something else.
aelryinth 05-06-07, 03:38 PM	Iaijutsu Focus is a tool like a sword. Whether it is used honorably is up to the user. Also, why is it dishonorable to use it in combat after your opponent has a chance to act? It would be far worse to use it before your opponent has had a chance to react. If you really want to use it after combat has begun try Martial Stance from the Book of Nine Swords to get the maneuver Sapphire Nightmare Blade. you need a good rank in concentration to put it off, but it would allow you to use it in combat even if your opponent wins initiative. Iajitsu focus is not a combat technique. It is a duelling technique. The d20 rules are not anything like Iajitsu is meant to be portrayed. Employment of Iajitsu was never, ever meant to sub for sneak attack. It is the epitome of the honor of the samurai system. Sneak attack is the dishonorable form of combat. Sapphire Nightmare Blade is one of the x2/3/4 dmg manuvers from Ironheart. I believe you are thinking of the Diamond blade and its greater variant, which allow you to sub your Concentration check (x2 for the Greater) for damage from any attack? And yes, Diamond Blade makes a very good alternate for a 'combat form' of Iajitsu. Iajitsu is about the duel, it is not about cutting the opponent down by any means possible. That's what kenjitsu is all about, and the different philosophies on that. ===Aelryinth
narukagami 05-06-07, 04:31 PM	Iajitsu focus is not a combat technique. It is a duelling technique. The d20 rules are not anything like Iajitsu is meant to be portrayed. Employment of Iajitsu was never, ever meant to sub for sneak attack. It is the epitome of the honor of the samurai system. Sneak attack is the dishonorable form of combat. {snip} Iajitsu is about the duel, it is not about cutting the opponent down by any means possible. That's what kenjitsu is all about, and the different philosophies on that. ===Aelryinth Sorry, but you are incorrect. IRL Iaijutsu is about striking an opponent when he is least prepared, or responding quickly to a situation where you would otherwise be at the disadvantage (such as a surprise attack.) A great number, if not the majority, of iai kata consist of striking at imaginary opponents from a seated position, at multiple opponents coming at you from multiple directions, and/or otherwise going straight from draw to cut starting at an otherwise "unprepared" position. The mental condition of iai training is to instinctively attack or defend when otherwise unprepared. The offensive application is to strike when your opponent doesn't expect it. Its entire focus is striking or defending when least expected. Not dueling. Only in Rokugan is this whole concept of iaijutsu being some kind of ritual dueling tradition true at all. Also, Sapphire Nightmare Blade and the x2/x3/x4 damage maneuvers are from Diamond Mind, not Iron Heart.
calronmoonflower 05-06-07, 07:39 PM	Right.... But in reading the rules (like the other two paragraphs under Iaijutsu Strikes In Normal Combat, as well as under the skill, etc.), it requires a stretch in logic to interpret the rules suggest that the IF bonus damage applies to any attack other than the one immediately drawn from the scabbard. I don't think you see that interpretation because it's such a stretch of logic to glean such an interpretation from the rules. Understanding that such an interpretation is so ungainly obtuse as I never even considered it until now, I think it was natural that I assumed you meant something else. The rules for iaijutsu focus are printed twice in Oriental Adventures. One states directly that it applies when you draw a sword and hit a flat footed opponent in the same round. No stretch of logic or rules is necessary. Iajitsu focus is not a combat technique. It is a duelling technique. The d20 rules are not anything like Iajitsu is meant to be portrayed. Employment of Iajitsu was never, ever meant to sub for sneak attack. It is the epitome of the honor of the samurai system. Sneak attack is the dishonorable form of combat. Sapphire Nightmare Blade is one of the x2/3/4 dmg manuvers from Ironheart. I believe you are thinking of the Diamond blade and its greater variant, which allow you to sub your Concentration check (x2 for the Greater) for damage from any attack? And yes, Diamond Blade makes a very good alternate for a 'combat form' of Iajitsu. Iajitsu is about the duel, it is not about cutting the opponent down by any means possible. That's what kenjitsu is all about, and the different philosophies on that. ===Aelryinth 1. Sapphire Nightmare Blade is a diamond mind maneuver that allows to to make a concentration check to make a opponent flat footed from the attack and adds +1d6 points of damage to the strike. 2. However the iaijutsu focus was developed to be used, it can be applied in other ways. Also a duel is a form of combat. 3. Are you arguing real world or intent? Real world doesn't apply in D&D and RAW allows it to be used either way.
Azzy 05-06-07, 07:51 PM	The rules for iaijutsu focus are printed twice in Oriental Adventures. One states directly that it applies when you draw a sword and hit a flat footed opponent in the same round. No stretch of logic or rules is necessary. Right, you haven't said anything that I haven't--it applies to an attack against a flat-footed opponent immediately after drawing a melee weapon. However, I think that Kalis Atrud is trying to imply that it could apply to multiple attacks within the same round, and I'm saying that that's a stretch and without precedent (two-weapon fighting notwithstanding).
calronmoonflower 05-06-07, 08:28 PM	Right, you haven't said anything that I haven't--it applies to an attack against a flat-footed opponent immediately after drawing a melee weapon. However, I think that Kalis Atrud is trying to imply that it could apply to multiple attacks within the same round, and I'm saying that that's a stretch and without precedent (two-weapon fighting notwithstanding). The rules for iaijutsu focus are printed twice in Oriental Adventures. One states directly that it applies when you draw a sword and hit a flat footed opponent in the same round. No stretch of logic or rules is necessary. No. Kalis Atrud and I are both saying the same thing. Also it isn't implied. It is stated directly on page 82 of Oriental Adventures in a side bar at the bottom of the page. From Oriental Adventures You can use your Iaijutsu Focus bonus damage in normal combat too, but only when you are attacking a flat-footed opponent and draw your weapon in the same round you strike. The argument seems to be caused by the iaijutsu focus says "immediately" after drawing your sword, but doesn't clarify what length of time immediate is.
Azzy 05-06-07, 09:14 PM	No. Kalis Atrud and I are both saying the same thing. Also it isn't implied. It is stated directly on page 82 of Oriental Adventures in a side bar at the bottom of the page. From Oriental Adventures The argument seems to be caused by the iaijutsu focus says "immediately" after drawing your sword, but doesn't clarify what length of time immediate is. I dunno, "immediately" typically means "immediately." But if you want to play at wonky interpretations, then IF cannot be used in normal combat except during the surprise round or on the first round of combat (see the other two paragraphs on page 82). And in the first round of combat it can only be used after drawing the weapon and moving towards the opponent. :rolleyes: Unless you can find a precedent for bonus damage from a character ability (ie, not the property of a weapon or spell) applying to all attacks in a full round action that doesn't specifically state it does so within the ability's description, then I can't see IF doing so.
Kalis Atrud 05-06-07, 10:54 PM	Unless you can find a precedent for bonus damage from a character ability (ie, not the property of a weapon or spell) applying to all attacks in a full round action that doesn't specifically state it does so within the ability's description, then I can't see IF doing so. Skirmish(if you can pull off moving 10 feet and still have a full attack action). I'm not suggesting that anybody rule that way(though I used to, and deep down probably still do, think it would be cool to hit muiltiple people with a iaijutsu whirlwind attack or take your rival completely out in the first round), just that it could be interpreted that way. Aerlryinth: Iaijutsu developed as a way to keep yourself from getting killed, the idea was to strike them before they could react so that they could not get an attack off. In the no magic, low level, wp/vp system campaign setting of Earth, a lucky strike could get you killed or leave you wounded in such a way that you can never fight again. Iaijutsu is based on the idea of preventing that strike from coming out by killing your opponent as fast as possible. Of course, swordsmen then wised up and started to study iaijutsu so they could protect against just such an attack. Which is essentially what an iaijutsu duel is. The assumption was that if you killed somebody before they could react with iaijutsu, then they should have been better prepared for the attack, not that you are some sort of dirty cheater. Aceon: If it hasn't been mentioned yet, Acrobatic Backstab is a skill trick from Complete Scoundrel.
calronmoonflower 05-06-07, 11:13 PM	I dunno, "immediately" typically means "immediately." What about drawing your sword (quick draw) charging and then striking. There is gap between your draw and strike, so couldn't that said to be not immediate. But if you want to play at wonky interpretations, then IF cannot be used in normal combat except during the surprise round or on the first round of combat (see the other two paragraphs on page 82). And in the first round of combat it can only be used after drawing the weapon and moving towards the opponent. :rolleyes: I'd use the rule that I quoted above. That isn't a "wonky" interruption, it's RAW. Unless you can find a precedent for bonus damage from a character ability (ie, not the property of a weapon or spell) applying to all attacks in a full round action that doesn't specifically state it does so within the ability's description, then I can't see IF doing so. 1. sneak attack 2. sudden attack 3. skirmish (it's hard, but you can manage it.) 4. deadly defense
aelryinth 05-06-07, 11:24 PM	Iajitsu in the 'real world' sense can be summed up very nicely by the Quick Draw feat, which is probably based on it. In essence, your weapon can always be drawn as a free action, whether it is sitting down next to you or not, and thus in any situation you don't have to commit to an action and can leap right out and attack. All of the multi-attack and strange position stuff is just prone fighting and similar things...the key thing is getting your weapon into your hand and doing things with it. Iajitsu FOCUS is something completely different. It's more a meditative state where you focus your internal energy to deal one perfect strike. It's been noted that it could be used for board-breaking strikes by monks as well as in Iajitsu duels (and one-cut techniques are how it's shown off today). As I noted before, Rokugan errata changes IF as something that takes a full round to pull off, because of the whole 'bag of swords' trick. It was never meant to sub for Sneak Attack, which is what people were doing with it. ===Aelryinth
calronmoonflower 05-06-07, 11:47 PM	As I noted before, Rokugan errata changes IF as something that takes a full round to pull off, because of the whole 'bag of swords' trick. It was never meant to sub for Sneak Attack, which is what people were doing with it. ===Aelryinth "Rokugan errata" Where is it? I've never heard of it. [edit] I did find this interesting question the the Oriental Adventures FAQ If a 10th-level weapon master is surrounded by, say, a bunch of low-level thugs, is it possible to use the ki whirlwind ability in conjunction with an iaijutsu attack if they’re flat-footed? If you can draw the weapon during the same round you make the ki whirlwind attack, yes.
DRdrizzt13beauOW 05-07-07, 12:22 AM	Hi...im the OP any input on my changes...or aew we going to just debate Iaijutsu irl vs game?:P the errata can be found on the wizards site here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a i dont want the IM to be a one-trick pony for duels only. I want to make him more playable for overall situations. Now i'm fine witht he whole one IF per battle (unless circumstance allows two.) Its just the displacemtn of ability scores limits that hence my changes. Any comments on them would be nice :) thanks
calronmoonflower 05-07-07, 02:03 AM	the errata can be found on the wizards site here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a I didn't find "Rokugan errata" there. Just Orintal Adventures which I already have read.
HidaAkira 05-07-07, 07:48 AM	He's probably referring to this http://www.l5r.com/archive/rpg/rules_rokugan_errata.html
Azzy 05-07-07, 02:36 PM	1. sneak attack Hmm, double checking the FAQ, it seems I was arguing from faulty memory under a flawed premise. I was misremembering... You can sneak attack with Manyshot. If you do, only one arrow in the volley deals sneak attack damage. ...and applying it to multiple attacks. Which would be wrong. Mea culpa. :embarrass Well, with that precedent, I suppose you could interpret that it applies to every attack made that round. Interesting. Now I'm curious as to the author's intent. Anyone want to Ask Wizards (javascript:makeWinXY('/company/emailtoaskdnd.asp?author=Ask Wizards DnD',540,615);)?
narukagami 05-07-07, 02:55 PM	Now I'm curious as to the author's intent. Anyone want to Ask Wizards (javascript:makeWinXY('/company/emailtoaskdnd.asp?author=Ask Wizards DnD',540,615);)? No, because they'll pull an answer out of their rears without actually checking what the book or author says at all.
Azzy 05-07-07, 06:00 PM	No, because they'll pull an answer out of their rears without actually checking what the book or author says at all. Which is why I didn't do it myself. :D
calronmoonflower 05-08-07, 02:54 AM	Hmm, double checking the FAQ, it seems I was arguing from faulty memory under a flawed premise. I was misremembering... ...and applying it to multiple attacks. Which would be wrong. Mea culpa. :embarrass Thats is a volley attack. You get percision damage once per volley attack. And there is this, from the Orentail Adventures FAQ Again If a 10th-level weapon master is surrounded by, say, a bunch of low-level thugs, is it possible to use the ki whirlwind ability in conjunction with an iaijutsu attack if they’re flat-footed? If you can draw the weapon during the same round you make the ki whirlwind attack, yes.
Azzy 05-08-07, 02:05 PM	Thats is a volley attack. You get percision damage once per volley attack. Yeah, I kinda got that. Which is why I stated "which would be wrong" about my "flawed premise" in my previous post. And there is this, from the Orentail Adventures FAQ Again That, however, is of questionable relevance, as a whirlwind attack (even of the ki variety) is simply a single attack against multiple opponents. :\
calronmoonflower 05-09-07, 04:05 AM	Yeah, I kinda got that. Which is why I stated "which would be wrong" about my "flawed premise" in my previous post. Sorry. I misread you. That, however, is of questionable relevance, as a whirlwind attack (even of the ki variety) is simply a single attack against multiple opponents. :\ from the SRD WHIRLWIND ATTACK [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4. Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities. Special: A fighter may select Whirlwind Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats. You make one attack for each opponent.
Azzy 05-09-07, 09:45 AM	You make one attack for each opponent. You can strike nearby opponents in an amazing, spinning attack. Emphasis mine, please note singularity. When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. While I see you interpret it as "make a melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent" (ie, make an attack roll individually for each opponent), I see it as saying "make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent" (ie, make a single attack roll and apply it against each opponent).
Aceon 05-09-07, 04:50 PM	Ok, let's break this thing down: You can use IF in a formal Iaijutsut duel. (where both combatants have agreed to such) You can ALSO use IF bonus dice in normal combat...when you catch your foe flat-footed, and immediately after drawing your weapon. This is clearly stated and is not in any kind of dispute. The prerequisite is: you must draw your sword, and then attack, right? So, that would tend to limit your use of IF bonus damage only to situations where you have your weapon in it's scabbard, prior to your IF strike. Based on this understanding some seem to feel that IF can only be used in round one of a combat, and then only if you win inititiative. But, while this is true most of the time, it is not true all of the time. Any time your sword is in the scabbard and your foe is also flat footed, you can use IF strike for bonus damage. Period. End of story. So, the real question is...how do you get your sword back in it's scabbard, so you can use it again, if you can get another opportunity to use IF? One way is to fight unarmed. Then when opportunity presents itself draw and strike with IF. How do you do it again next time? You have to sheath your sword. Sheath a weapon is a move equivalent action that provokes attacks of opportunity. So, there is some risk there. Spring attack makes it work pretty well. Spring in, draw+attack, spring away, sheath weapon. Lather, rinse, repeat. There are other ways to get a weapon in it's scabbard. You could carry lots of weapons. ( you might look pretty stupid doing so. ) You could try to get a modified version of a glove of storing, and instead get a scabbard of storing and store and retrieve the weapon as a free action. Then you are limited only by the number of free actions your DM will allow in a round. One could argue that an archer can (as a free action) draw as many arrows from his quiver in any round as he has attacks, so that might be the same for Quick Draw and free storage. You could invent a feat that allows you to sheath your weapon as a free action that doesn't provoke attacks of oppty. It should have Quick Draw and Improved Unarmed Strike as prerequisites. ( IUS so you can still threaten 5' range when you sheath the scabbard and thus make a reasonably good case for not provoking an aoo.) Of course these things, as always, requires your DM's approval.
Hochiu 05-11-07, 02:14 PM	[LIST] You could carry lots of weapons. ( you might look pretty stupid doing so. ) Oh god, don't start with the 5-Katana-Quick-Draw-ZOMGMASSIVEDAMAGEBUILDBECAUSEIFISBROKEN! build. To do so completely invalidates any form of logical and consistent argument anyone can make. However, the thing is, you need to be able to catch your opponent flat-footed, which is impossible once combat has already been initiated. You can't spring attack in, unsheath, IFstrike, sheath, spring attack out, and expect to be able to do that again without the opponent expecting it. Regardless of the reality of any such situation, D&D has no facing rules, so all creatures and characters are expected to maintain a 360 degree awareness of what is going on without hide/move-silently/sneakiness. Flanking does not confer flat-footedness on the enemy, as is sometimes thought (Not by people here, but others I know). Just to clarify: Flat-footed: Especially vulnerable to attacks at the beginning of a battle. Characters are flat-footed until their FIRST turns in the initative cycle. A flat-footed creature loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity. Granted, this is supplimented new by new feats, new applications of skills, new weapon enhancements, and a couple class abilities, but the core mechanic remains the same. The only way you could IF multiple opponents in a battle is to catch them before they take their turn in combat, thus, the Spring-attack/Quickdraw thing may work, but you'd have to still sheath your blade before hand, which is impossible without house-ruling. I thought we solved this question, like, over a year ago? Why did we return to it?
narukagami 05-11-07, 02:16 PM	I thought we solved this question, like, over a year ago? Why did we return to it? Because responding with "LURK MOAR!" is appearantly against the CoC.:P
madmonk 05-11-07, 10:07 PM	The original sage stated that you could add iaijutsu damage against all oponents with whirlwind attack if you had ki whirlwind. However, only a OA weapon master can do that. In my campaigns, iaijutsu focus represent a state of mind, where you suddenly release your ki in a single blow. I only allow characters to do iaijutsu damage after concentrating for at least a round, or at the beggining of a combat. No matter what crazy skill or feat they use. And I use a feat that allow warriors to sheat their sword once per round without provoking AoO. Just because thats cool, and allow characters to say cool things while concentratin their ki again. With this rule, only ONE character attempted to do IF twice in a combat. And don't begin with multiarmed samurai because I will call the ugly trasvesti marilith iaijutsu master from hell... well, from the abyss actually. Remember that IF is NOT sneack attack, and was not made to be the warriors answer to it. It was just a cool thing for duelling and first strikes.
Aceon 05-14-07, 11:56 AM	...the thing is, you need to be able to catch your opponent flat-footed, which is impossible once combat has already been initiated. Flanking does not confer flat-footedness on the enemy, as is sometimes thought (Not by people here, but others I know). Granted, this is supplimented new by new feats, new applications of skills, new weapon enhancements, and a couple class abilities, but the core mechanic remains the same. The only way you could IF multiple opponents in a battle is to catch them before they take their turn in combat, thus, the Spring-attack/Quickdraw thing may work, but you'd have to still sheath your blade before hand, which is impossible without house-ruling. Not exactly. Sure there are NEW feats and spells, but since you are looking to the first and original source: Flat-Footed: At the start of a batttle, before you have had a chance to act, (specifically before your first regular turn in the initiative order ) you are flat-footed. ... Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed, since they have not acted yet, Being attacked while balancing: You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you can't avoid a blow and thus you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC ( if any ). If you have 5 or more ranks in balance, you are not considered flat-footed while balancing. There is this 1st level spell your mage pal should have...it's called Grease. The thing is, without a houserule, you can still put your blade away without provoking attacks of opportunity. You see...a flat-footed character can not ACT, and thus can NOT make an attack of opportunity. ( at least not without combat reflexes ) PHB 3.5 p: 151 Table 8-6 Armor Class Modifiers Defender is: Flat-footed (such as surprised, balancing, climbing) So, without getting into lots of new feats and spells the original game mechanics clearly present at least 4 situations where a character can be flat-footed AND without making a clear and commanding rule that stipulates in what other situations where a character can be considered flat-footed, the explanatory text clearly states the reasons someone would be "considered to be flat-footed". Among those reasons are "unaware combatants" and those that are "considered flat footed" ..."since you can't avoid a blow", and thus that opens up the interpretation to the DM of when a character may be (flat-footed) in a situation where they can't move to avoid a blow. Especially when you consider the text under table 8-6 AC modifiers. It doesn't say, "These are the only situations where someone could be flat-footed" It says "Flat-footed: ...such as ...( when in this or that situation ) However, just because someone is flanked or even denied their Dex bonus to AC for whatever reason...that doesn't mean they can't move to avoid a blow. Even a character who is grappling is still in combat and can move ( to fight the grapple ) ...even a character who is pinned is still fighting! But I would rule that a character who is paralyzed is in a fair state worse than simply being flat-footed. The penalties are far more severe, and he certainly can't move to avoid a blow, thus I would rule a paralyzed character to be flat-footed. A question to Cust Serv. backs me up on this. ( Not that their opinion matters to most of us!) :) I am sure there are other situations that create a flat-footed foe also...Tome of Battle is filled with maneuvers that create this condition on your foe. Basically, the idea is you somehow distract your foe, or momentarily befuddle him and attack before he can adequetely defend himself. This basically replicates the conditions in the first round of combat. Consider this: In round one and the surprise round a flat-footed combatant realizes that he is being attacked and is not paralyzed or in any way immobilized, but his mind has just simply not had the chance to react properly to the situation. Feats, maneuvers and spells that say they make a foe flat-footed, are usually duplicating that momentary distraction, or deny the foe the abilility to see the attack coming. This opens up the invisibility question. Most proponents of IF argue that an invisible attacker should gain the benefit of his foe's being flat-footed. There is some merit in the argument, but after the first round of combat, I think most combatants will be aware of the invisible attacker after the first round. Even if the foes can't see you, that doesn't mean that they are not trying their best to defend against what they know is an invisible attacker. Thus, they are both AWARE and can MOVE, two conditions that pretty much negate the flat-footed condition. Conversely, I would argue that any time a character can take advantage of a situation where the enemy is either UN-AWARE or CAN'T MOVE to adequetly defend himself...I would say that qualifies as flat-footed based on the PHB interpretation of the condition.
Niren 05-14-07, 02:26 PM	Spring attack makes it work pretty well. Spring in, draw+attack, spring away, sheath weapon. Lather, rinse, repeat. I think that is to many actions in one round 1 standard and 2 move. Being a number crunching rules lawyer, I think I was the one last year that created a long discussion on the subject of IF use multiple times in combat. And it came down to actions in a round. Even spring attack allows for splitting your move action but does not give you 2 move actions and a standard action in the same round. The most attacks if your DM allows the 5’ as a move action (but my DM says the 5’ is a free action) is 2. If your targets are in melee range to start the initiative round & you have quick draw, spring attack, and one strike two cuts; If you win Initiative, as a full action you could draw (free action first part of your move) hit with IF (1 S 2 H) sheath your weapon (spring attack 2nd part of your move) strike with the 2nd part of (1 S 2 H) but if you move at all that puts to many actions in the round. Now if you have strike with no thought you could use IF in the surprise round using a move action to sheath the weapon (1 standard & move action allowed) then if you win initiative you could use IF once more in the next round. Oh FYI my DM didn’t buy into the spring attack thing either
Aceon 05-14-07, 03:08 PM	Quite right. And nothing wrong with that logic. But, to be fair, I never said it had to be in the same round. :P You could: Round 1: Spring Attack, draw and IF attack, spring back. Round 2: Sheath your weapon ( move action ) wait for foes to attack you. Use grease or blurstrike or a feat or a martial adept combat maneuver or some other means to get them flat-footed, then Quick Draw (free action) IF strike (standard action), spring away again and repeat. If you use spring attack, then you limit your foes to only one attack on you (usually) and if you can find ways to make them flat-footed then you can maximize your damage output on your one attack that round ( or two with 1 S 2 H )
Aceon 05-14-07, 03:44 PM	The original sage stated that you could add iaijutsu damage against all oponents with whirlwind attack if you had ki whirlwind. However, only a OA weapon master can do that. I'm not convinced of this interpretation. There is nothing that overtly states ONLYan OA Weapon Master and no one else who can use a whirlwind attack. I believe the answer only stipulates that the weapon must be drawn in the same round: If you can draw the weapon during the same round you make the ki whirlwind attack, yes. I asked this question to both Cust Serv. and the Sage on exactly this point years ago. "Can anyone with WWA use IF in the same round?" Answer came back "YES". Because nowhere does the rules give this as a special ability of the OA Weapon Master that they just forgot to put in the printed version of the book! :P The question is only a clarification of the existing rules, ( that is why it is found in the FAQ and not an errata instead ) the example of the Weapon Master in this case, was only just that...an example.
Niren 05-14-07, 04:05 PM	Well then you won't mind using the belt of battle from the Magic item Compendium gives you 3 free move actions or 1 move & one standard or 1 full action a day. That opens the options up a bit, and they changed the blur strike to saying the first attack not every attack
Niren 05-14-07, 04:40 PM	Another attempt to re sheath your sword is a variation on Dancing ability. Which once the weapons released it finishes the 1 round of attacks -2 ( the one you all ready took and the one to resheath it’s self) & re-sheaths on it’s own instead of attacking for 4 rounds.. Using only two weapons as you release the one and you draw the other. But my DM restricted it by only allowing 3 free actions in a round
Aceon 05-23-07, 04:17 PM	Just as an FYI and not that anyone here pays much attention to Cust Serv rulings...I put in a couple of recent questions to clarify the question of iteritive Iaijutsu Strikes within the same round. It seems you don't need to look like a hedgehog samurai with a dozen Katanas...one for each attack. You CAN draw and strike in a single round with as many iteritive attacks, cleaves and attacks of opportunity as you can get all in one round and they all get IF bonus damage...provided your foes are all flat-footed. So if you can move and pounce or get to your foes in the surprise round and then win initiative ( of course ) and then gain IF on all your flat-footed foes. True they probably won't be flat-footed in round two and so on, but you will have done your worst and thinned out the enemy ranks quite a bit in round one. Then you can play games with feats and spells and tricks and whatever to get another IF strike in here and there. The text box on the bottom of Oriental Adventures p.82 "Iaijutsu Strikes in Normal Cobat" requires only that the character draw his sword in the same round as the strike. Does that mean iteritive attacks in the round vs. a single or multiple flat-footed foes all gain Iaijutsu Bonus damage? So long as you draw the blade in the same round? What about the "One Strike 2 Cuts" 8th lvl class ability? Can the One strike 2 cuts be used on a flat-footed foe to make 2 Iaijutsu Focus strikes? Thank you for writing. 1. Iterative attacks in the same round you draw your sword can have Iaijutsu bonuses applied. 2. The One Strike Two Cuts ability can be used to make two attacks using the damage bonus from Iaijutsu Focus as long as you drew your weapon that round or as the strike in an Iaijutsu duel. There has also been an errata to this ability that states the second strike is made with a -5 to the attack. Please let me know if you need anymore help! Good Gaming! Rob Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast and also this question: The FAQ states that a character can use Whirlwind Attack with Iaijutsu Focus if all adjacent threatened foes within 5 ft are flat-footed. Essentially it is one single sweeping long strike vs. multiple foes. Which would be great in the unlikely event a character finds himself surrounded by flat-footed foes, who are in range and no one has yet rolled initiative. (Since WWA is a full round action, he can't use a move action to get there first in the same round. ) I know that Whirlwind Attack can't be used with Cleave, that is not my question. Since Cleave is similar ( in one respect ) to WWA, in that it is described as "follow through with the same attack" If a character drops a flat-footed foe using Iaijutsu and thus gains a cleave attack at another foe with the same weapon, can this also use Iaijutsu Focus bonus damage if that 2nd foe is also flat-footed? the answer Thank you for writing. If you drop an opponent and follow through to another flat-footed enemy using Cleave, you will receive your Iaijutsu damage bonus as well. Please let me know if you need anymore help! Good Gaming! Rob Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast
Kalis Atrud 05-23-07, 06:02 PM	I kind of like the way this Rob guy rolls from a coolness point of view. It makes npc iaijutsu masters a little dangerous though. Multiple attacks with the bonus damage should be enough to pretty much one round most characters(and the DM after he drops a squad of shinobi iaijutsu masters on you).
narukagami 05-23-07, 07:21 PM	Yet more evidence that anything CustServ says should be taken with a grain of salt.
DRdrizzt13beauOW 10-15-07, 01:06 AM	BUMP >.>