Post/Author/DateTime	Post
narukagami 02-28-07, 08:13 PM	As some of you may or may not know, I feel the d20 rules as written are not suitable for the Legend of the Five Rings setting at all. I know, its a personal opinion and others do bring up some very valid points as to how one can really make it work. However, I just can't set my mind to accept that d20 can capture the true essence of the Legend of the Five Rings RPG. Anyway, while lurking about the L5R forum I stumbled across this outdated (it was written as a guide to freelance writers in 1997) but still valid article written by one DJ Trindle. I wanted to post this here for two reasons: #1) It sums up and puts it much more eloquently than I could as to why I think d20 fails to capture the little things that define L5R. And the more important: #2) It makes for some good advice for GMs wanting to improve their Rokugan game. And we all know some of you don't like L5R (REG!) so you need not comment, heck, I made my own setting that my group plays in myself because there are allot of things I think are just silly. There are a few things to keep in mind when writing material for L5R. It’s an unusual game-world, and it’s not always possible to dust off that old Greyhawk module you wrote six years ago, search-and-replace “bushi” for “knight” and “shugenja” for “mage”, and submit it. Here are some of the cultural differences that many people trip up on. • The Wheel of Karma Karma is a driving force behind the samurai ethic. If you die while heroically serving your lord, the theory goes, you get a promotion when you’re reborn into your next life. Instead of being a humble backwoods samurai, you might be a higher-ranking samurai, or a minor lord in your own right. Furthermore, your lord is going to look upon your family with favor, since you’ve demonstrated your devotion so completely. However, this also means that plot decisions based on self-preservation are often going to go wrong. The standard samurai response to overwhelming force is “This message must get through! You three go on, while I stand here and defend the bridge against the twenty bandits!” • Speaking of Dying… It’s very easy to kill off characters in L5R. The combat system is about as unforgiving as, well, actual combat with the four-foot razors that samurai carry around. If you get hit with a katana, it’s probably time to pull out a fresh character sheet. This means that we’re hesitant to use “wandering monsters.” We aren’t fond of random encounters, because they often end up with half the party dead. If the party’s going to run into a dozen goblins, write it up; if not, then include some text that sounds as if the PCs will be attacked any moment, just to keep them on their toes. • Magical Healing Healing in Rokugan is nontrivial. The flip side of the ease of getting hurt is the difficulty in getting patched up. Since lying around convalescing isn’t a riveting roleplaying opportunity for those of us who napped during The English Patient, natural healing in the L5R RPG is faster than in real life. It still isn’t terrifically fast: a moderately banged-up character is out of commission for about a week. There also exists magical healing, but it’s uncommon. There’s exactly one spell that heals Wounds, and it merely speeds up the body’s own processes. It doesn’t regenerate lost limbs or organs: if you just lost an ear in a fight, expect to need custom-made hats for the rest of your life. There is precedent for healing salves, but use them very, very sparingly. L5R is not a game in which you patch up wounded PCs and send them back out to fight. It’s a game in which the battered and torn remnants of the party stagger into the home stretch of the adventure down a couple of dice and trying to go around, rather than through, further obstacles. Besides, there’s little point in including healing. Compassionate GMs will fudge die rolls to keep their players intact, while realist ones will let the dice fall where they may and ignore that cache of Potions of Extra Healing that snuck in from Greyhawk. • Surly Ronin Since ronin don’t have a lord, they’re mostly left out of the Celestial Order, and don’t have good prospects for their next lives. This is the main reason that so many of them are grouchy all the time. If a samurai’s lord dies, he often commits seppuku rather than live on, in shame, as a man with no master. Another accepted course of action is to track down the persons who engineered your lord’s death, and explain to them very thoroughly how irritated they’ve made you -- and once they’re dead, then to commit seppuku. An all-ronin campaign is possible, but takes a lot of work; they’re rare. Don’t assume that more than one of the PCs in a party is a ronin. Most of the time, none of them are — people like to identify with a clan. • Don’t Touch Me! Touching is off-limits in Rokugan. The concept of “personal space” is very important to Rokugani, and a slap on the back is tantamount to a punch in the face. Big gestures are also Not Done. Someone who is making big gestures is probably dangerously irrational, and is often working himself up to get into a fight. If you’ve just reported the details of a major screwup to your lord, he may make large gestures while chewing you out at the top of his lungs. You may also make large gestures while you abase yourself in groveling apology. Even in the Crab Clan, there’s a shortage of “hail-fellow-well-met” bluffness. Friendly NPCs probably just invite the party to come get incredibly drunk with them at their favorite geisha house. • Bowing This is pretty straightforward: you bow whenever you say “hello” to someone. Rokugani bows keep the hands by the sides and bend rigidly from the waist. There aren’t any big arm flourishes, and the legs stay put. The degree of your bow is regulated by the difference in your Glory: bow deeply to someone who outranks your lord. Bow curtly to someone you outrank, or you’re just barely deigning to notice, or feel like insulting. Samurai never, ever bow to peasants. • Romantic Love: Threat or Menace? This is a nuisance, not a noble goal. A samurai is supposed to be completely devoted to serving his lord; romance is a distraction. Marriages are economic arrangements, and it’s strictly luck that determines whether the bride and groom can stand each other. A love interest does, however, give the GM the opportunity to set up one of the classic samurai tragic storylines: the painful choice between duty and amour. This story is always a tragedy, no matter which way the decision goes. • Money: Not a Big Deal Rokugan isn’t on a money economy per se; your lord is supposed to supply your needs as far as armor and food. You probably inherited your katana and wakizashi from your father, and his father, and his father, and so on. If your horse throws a shoe, you walk into the blacksmith’s shop and tell him to fix it. If your katana is lost or broken, you don’t pay to get it fixed — you commit seppuku to expiate the shame you’ve brought upon your grandfather’s sword. It’s difficult to motivate most samurai with the standard “There’s big bags of treasure lying around for the taking!” line. On the other hand, it’s usually even simpler than that to get them moving: their lord tells them “Thus-and-so is happening in such-and-such a place. Go deal with it.” If they do, he makes a big deal of their loyalty and service in a formal, public ceremony, and they get recognition and glory — the true coin of the realm in Rokugan. • So What Do Geisha Do, Anyway? Geisha aren’t prostitutes. Any samurai who attempted to force his attentions on a geisha would certainly be bounced from the establishment, with dire consequences and massive loss of face (assuming he didn’t turn up with a knife in his back). So what do they do? They provide a samurai with a socially-acceptable outlet to be human every so often. A samurai goes to a geisha house when he wants to let his hair down and quit being so damn noble and stiff-backed and devoted for a little while. The geisha house thoughtfully provides him with booze and a pretty girl to listen to him talk about how hard it is to be a samurai. The geisha knows how to listen sympathetically, plays a musical instrument or two and gives a great backrub. After a while, thoroughly relaxed, the samurai staggers home and awakens refreshed. That’s about it. Of course, drunken samurai wandering around with their swords on is just asking for trouble, so there’s a weapon check at the front door. This is a great way to disarm PCs during an adventure; furthermore, when the hooraw starts (as it inevitably does — the next GM to let his PCs spend a peaceful night in a geisha house will be the first), they’re several doors away from their katana and slightly buzzed on sake. • Why Mythical Creatures Are Mythical Rokugan has a number of fantastic creatures in its history. There are five Dragons, one for each ring. There are also five Oracles who may be associated with, or facets of, the Dragons. There’s a Ki-Rin, who may or may not be one of the legendary clan founders, and possibly a unicorn, who may have been that clan founder’s, er, close friend. There are also a raft of kami — spirits and demigods — to whom shugenja talk. These legendary creatures are off-limits to players. They’re probably immortal, and certainly have power unattainable by mere humans. If they had a mind to, they could be running the show, but they don’t spend a lot of time in the physical world. PCs might, if they’re fortunate and destined for greatness, be given a glimpse of the Ki-Rin, or have a short discussion with a Dragon; but they’ll probably disagree with each other about the specifics of the encounter. Legends are like that. And you don’t want them annoyed at you: there’s one story in which a samurai suggested to an Oracle that Dragons could be hunted for sport, and was simply unmade, as if he’d never existed. • Building Construction Rokugan doesn’t have a lot of furniture. No end tables. No beds; people sleep on futons or mats on the floor. There’s the occasional tapestry, but they’re rare, and you don’t get carpets at all; woven reed mats are the standard floor covering. Internal walls are usually paper and conducive to eavesdropping. If they aren’t, they’re wood. Stone internal walls Don’t Happen. • Other Notes Rokugan doesn’t have a lot of wheeled vehicles. Their roads aren’t good enough to sustain them. Most travel is done on foot or on horseback. The Emperor has carts, and so do the master merchants in the Yasuki family, but that’s about it. The Shadowlands Taint is a spiritual infection that people get when they spend too much time around Fu Leng: either in the Shadowlands, or messing about with maho (blood magic). Although it boosts some physical capabilities, it has associated penalties that make it not worthwhile to have. It’s also a big loss of face to be Tainted, and might be perceived as making you less completely devoted to your lord. Anybody with the Taint should be spending most of his energy trying to get rid of it, unless he’s resigned to letting Fu Leng run his life right now and take his soul after he dies. Take from it what you will. And by all means don't think I'm telling people how to play their games, I'm just giving some advice.
RavenGraygem 02-28-07, 10:51 PM	Having no experience with the AEG version of L5R, I can't really say if their system is better for Rokugan than d20. But even under the d20 rules, I see Rokugan as a more RP-oriented setting, and the various free bits I've culled from the web only reinforce that. And articles like that certainly help with the image I have of the land.
ted_the_mindflayer 03-01-07, 12:13 AM	Hmmmm very intresting topic, I think from the authors perspective he is 100% right. He is entrenched in the L5R system and prefers it over d20. It is also true that his system most likely was bastardised to fit d20 (Poof! Clan tenchniques into feats) But L5R is not the same system as d20 D&D. When i played it I understood the etiquette (atleast the basics) but still found me and my party confronted with dilemas of doing something rash that many times the party deemed neccary until eventually it became routine (one can only pretend to be in conflict so much with ones self). Rooms filled with blood and bodies rarely held us back nor gave us pause eventually. Also i found hypcrocy in the honor as some flavor text explained characters doing non rokugani tatics (Crabs ally with shadowland, unicorn monks beating up lions.) I have nothing aganist the game I just find it takes people who want to play that style. D20 sort of has that cake and eat it too thing for inbolden players with the high combat along with L5R base. In this mans opinon much of the 'mistakes' can be fixed Karma: Depends on PC roleplaying really no matter the system Death: Take raise magic out Healing: Make curing ether high level or ban it Ronin: Actually my party in L5R were mostly ronin, I think it depends on the PCs again Touch: DMs call how hard to enforce this no matter the system Bowing: I never specified i was bowing on ether system Money: DM gives out cash. Samurai dashio only can have non flashy features. All samurai low cost paid for. Monsters: Again DMs call on that. Although in the shadowlands I don't think the same rules on this apply. Mythical creatures there lose the myth when they have armies then they become cultural threats on a communinal scale. The dragons can stay demi gods. Taint: Actually i completly agree that d20 jaded the taint to now it is almost worthless or use it to be super powered. It came to the point where my players are starting to ask to use a greater restoration to go to taint 0 and think that is pretty wrong. Well I think d20 could fill all these points it usually doesn't and unless one played L5R one would never know to change the rules. I think for overall playablity and fun d20 wins as it is one of the few games that runs rather smooth with people who want to fight fight and the people who want to roleplay can do that too and it means you usually don't have to change systems when the camp is over.
Azar_of_Faerun 03-01-07, 02:54 AM	I like using my Oriental Adventures book as is. A solid supplement when I wish to include asian flavor to my campaigns
Darth Sephiroth 03-01-07, 03:47 AM	Statwise OA is DnD with funny hats in a way, but the way you play and advance the characters isn't. Several important decisions for your character must be made with more attention to the setting and how others would react rather than just the power it gives you. Taint is something most characters should want rid of, those who do nothing about it are normally those who you would want nothing to do with. A few of the most powerhungry may no longer care about how tainted they get, they just want power NOW at that point. My Samurai character I've been playing is the son of a Samurai who betrayed his family and went nuts killing a large number of people until my character killed him (My character handled that in a short solo adventure after the first few adventures). Abandoning his normal Ancestral Daisho (He didn't start with it because his father was still using the family ones at that point and had made them something he wanted nothing to do with. He adventured to earn a new weapon to pass down after he appeased his ancestral spirits. It was not a decision to take lightly and it still has repercussions in the game as he still carries a Daisho, but also carries a weapon he plans on passing down that is unique because of his actions. For the “hail-fellow-well-met” part of things, I'd find part of that rather common for travelers to some extent, just not in the same way. Most Samurai/Shugenja would be able to tell something about each other by the dress of the other to see their alleigances and at least their clan of origin. But travelers would probably at least introduce themselves and expect the same in return from people of their standing because having an unknown if there is trouble from bandits or whatnot is a recepie for disaster. Money remains a big deal for most characters, most characters would be traveling and money is needed to travel and the lifestyles of the upper class would need a lot of upkeep. This is not to say that you should adventure for profit, the Samurai/Shugenja should probably adventure more for glory and honor with a more Paladin type look on things where they are not really doing it for themselves.
Ranger REG 03-01-07, 04:04 AM	As some of you may or may not know, I feel the d20 rules as written are not suitable for the Legend of the Five Rings setting at all. I know, its a personal opinion and others do bring up some very valid points as to how one can really make it work. However, I just can't set my mind to accept that d20 can capture the true essence of the Legend of the Five Rings RPG. Anyway, while lurking about the L5R forum I stumbled across this outdated (it was written as a guide to freelance writers in 1997) but still valid article written by one DJ Trindle. I wanted to post this here for two reasons: #1) It sums up and puts it much more eloquently than I could as to why I think d20 fails to capture the little things that define L5R. And the more important: #2) It makes for some good advice for GMs wanting to improve their Rokugan game. And we all know some of you don't like L5R (REG!) so you need not comment, heck, I made my own setting that my group plays in myself because there are allot of things I think are just silly. Take from it what you will. And by all means don't think I'm telling people how to play their games, I'm just giving some advice. Oh, I am SO going to comment. :devil: You say the d20 rules is not suitable for Rokugan. I disagree. Why? Because had Rokugan/L5R been a d20-branded product, it would be much more acceptable and can deviate from the well-established D&D rules. "But isn't D&D the same as d20?" you asked. To which I reply, "D&D is d20, but d20 is not D&D." After 7 long years, I've seen d20 evolves from D&D rules that have been first appeared in the SRD. It's possible to make SRD-based Rokugan d20 or OGL. Personally, I never figured Rokugan to be useful under the D&D ruleset, but it can be under the d20 System. P.S., Let this be the LAST time I defended Rokugan as a d20 System product (but not as a D&D product).
Zumarai 03-01-07, 10:02 AM	The original article quoted by the OP was great, but any campaign setting (Planescape/Dark Sun etc) has its own principles/concepts that you can apply to bring that setting to life.
HidaAkira 03-01-07, 10:19 AM	As Ted mentioned, many of those arguments are strawmen. Narukagami uses roleplaying arguments and pretends that they are mechanics arguments. The only arguments I can see that are truly based on game mechanics are easy death and difficult healing, All of these are easily handled with a few simple house rules. You want deadly combat, nerf HD. Give them a flat bonus of 1-3 per level instead of dice (Con bonus is optional). Voila, dangerous combat. Difficult healing, as Ted said, increase level, reduce effetiveness, etc. Other problems with D&D as written are magic items (briefly touched upon on the matter of magical healing), Simply say that people don't get near as many magic items (these do exist in the original system in the form of nemuranai, tsangusuri etc., and legendary quality items in R&K would likely qualify for magic status in D&D).(house rule that jade/crystal ignores DR altogether, so you don't have to jade nemuranai to kill oni). I have to disagree with Ranger REG, because as it is written, Rokugan d20 is basically a D&D game because that is how it was written. There are some special rules, but name me a D&D setting that does not have special rules.
Azzy 03-01-07, 02:14 PM	I have to disagree with Ranger REG, because as it is written, Rokugan d20 is basically a D&D game because that is how it was written. There are some special rules, but name me a D&D setting that does not have special rules. I think you misunderstood the Ranger.... I think the point he was trying to make is that Rokugan could have worked as a D20 game--if the D20 system had been modified to fit the setting (like D20 Modern, Wheel of Time and Star Wars all use a modified D20 ruleset) rather than patching the setting onto D&D's version of the D20 system. (I don't even like Rokugan--why am I even participating in this thread?)
narukagami 03-01-07, 04:41 PM	*Wonders how many people actually read the first two paragraphs...* :bored: Anyway, again you all bring up valid points. And I agree with Ranger REG that if the d20 system was conformed to make a d20 L5R rather than L5R being conformed to make a D&D setting things will be allot better. And there are no strawmen here, I'm not calling anything one thing or another. I just think the D&D (REG made a good point regarding that distinction) mechanics don't mesh well with some aspects that make L5R what it is that the original L5R mechanics do. Also: I'd like to call out the Oberani "fallacy" in some of the responser's posts. Just because you can change the rules doesn't mean there wasn't a problem with the rules as written to begin with.
Ranger REG 03-02-07, 02:44 AM	I have to disagree with Ranger REG, because as it is written, Because it was written for Oriental Adventures, one of the many stipulations that were agreed by both parties (AEG and WotC). The deal is WotC makes the main rulebook, AEG is to support it. The same kind of deal made for the Dragonlance line (only Sovereign Press is supporting it). All those supplements for Rokugan have OA label on it (either front or back). That's why I didn't like WotC's business decision to promote Rokugan as an example setting for OA, even though they own the IP at the time (when they acquired Five Rings Publishing Group, which was owned by d20/OGL movement leader, Ryan Dancey). AEG was going to develop on their own before WotC told them they're using it for the new OA book.
ted_the_mindflayer 03-05-07, 07:23 PM	Also: I'd like to call out the Oberani "fallacy" in some of the responser's posts. Just because you can change the rules doesn't mean there wasn't a problem with the rules as written to begin with. Hmmm Technically they should have written it out in the OA as a variant. Not even in d20 Rokugan camp setting does it give any variance of D&D. Having said that certain things i suggested would take no work at all (Is it not easyier to not give a magic item?) and some would take little to none (all healing is +1 level) Me personally found it easier to play Rokugan like D&D a frist then slowly change it to be more L5R friendly. Basically if D&D is tagged on AEGs back as they cross a river i believe D&D can swim LOL.
Azzy 03-05-07, 10:18 PM	That's why I didn't like WotC's business decision to promote Rokugan as an example setting for OA, even though they own the IP at the time (when they acquired Five Rings Publishing Group, which was owned by d20/OGL movement leader, Ryan Dancey). Agreed. It was a disservice to OA because it used so few of the options presented and was too mono-cultural for a sample setting. And, apparently, it was a disservice to the L5R IP as several of the reasons you mention.
angryman 03-05-07, 10:19 PM	D20 is not D&D, it's just that D&D is the game most associated with D&D. Try Cthulhu D20. You can be killed by a single gunshot, though it usually takes two to really keep you down. Heroic it ain't. In my last game, one PC died from crashing a van into a tree (he wasn't wearing a belt...) and the other one was injected with a paralytic drug and tortured.
The_Shaman 03-06-07, 03:11 PM	For more lethal combat, why not just change the MDD rules? Say a hit of over 15+con modifier damage forces you to make a save of 10+ the difference between the damage and 15+con. If you fail, you drop at 0 with -1 for every point you failed the save with (hence, if you fail by -10 or more, you die). Or you can just treat the attack as a CdG attempt. This way, you can get higher-level characters being able to take a lot of flesh wounds, but they still die when a high-level ninja sticks a dagger through their neck.
Kalis Atrud 03-08-07, 04:19 PM	Of course Lo5R isn't D&D in funny hats. They don't wear hats so they can show off their crazy rock-star hair. Also, I think Toturi was getting more than backrubs from that Geisha before the Clan Wars.
narukagami 03-08-07, 04:32 PM	Of course Lo5R isn't D&D in funny hats. They don't wear hats so they can show off their crazy rock-star hair. This made me chuckle. Also, I think Toturi was getting more than backrubs from that Geisha before the Clan Wars. Toturi's affair with the Geisha was a product of a tragic (at least tragic in the end) romance and not prostitution, so if you were trying to make a point about that, its moot.
Kalis Atrud 03-08-07, 04:44 PM	Toturi's affair with the Geisha was a product of a tragic (at least tragic in the end) romance and not prostitution, so if you were trying to make a point about that, its moot. The point I'm trying to make is that just because they aren't prostitutes, doesn't mean that sex is out of the question with their clients. Geisha may not be prostitutes, but if a samurai makes a good enough impression he(or she) may still be able to have sex with the geisha at the geisha's discretion, though it isn't a sure thing.
narukagami 03-08-07, 04:49 PM	The point I'm trying to make is that just because they aren't prostitutes, doesn't mean that sex is out of the question with their clients. Geisha may not be prostitutes, but if a samurai makes a good enough impression he(or she) may still be able to have sex with the geisha at the geisha's discretion, though it isn't a sure thing. Ah, I see. Yes, true, but do remember that these situations are exceptions to the norm. Though it is the exceptions that make for more interesting stories.
Darakhoranon 03-23-07, 10:43 PM	How did we get from "L5R not good as D&D" to "Geisha and samurai..."? Actually, I don´t really see WHY the D&D rules "shouldn´t" be used for L5R. After all, if you don´t like a system (or a certain approach to specific details of a game-world), just don´t use it. You can choose which rules to use, so it doesn´t really matter if there´s anything wrong with a given system. The only mistake some seem to be making is this: You´re trying to argue for or against using a given system - but why bother? There is NO way you´ll ever convince those with another opinion. By simply adding "I prefer XXX because" at the beginning, you´d get to show your point of view without starting an endless (and quite possibly useless) discussion...
Ranger REG 03-24-07, 05:04 AM	How did we get from "L5R not good as D&D" to "Geisha and samurai..."? Actually, I don´t really see WHY the D&D rules "shouldn´t" be used for L5R. After all, if you don´t like a system (or a certain approach to specific details of a game-world), just don´t use it. Then I want a $5 credit on my OA book. There is $30 worth of useful OA material that I want, and $5 worth of Rokugan material that I don't want. :smirk:
Werral 03-25-07, 09:28 AM	For more lethal combat, why not just change the MDD rules? Say a hit of over 15+con modifier damage forces you to make a save of 10+ the difference between the damage and 15+con. If you fail, you drop at 0 with -1 for every point you failed the save with (hence, if you fail by -10 or more, you die). Or you can just treat the attack as a CdG attempt. This way, you can get higher-level characters being able to take a lot of flesh wounds, but they still die when a high-level ninja sticks a dagger through their neck. And how about when you roll to confirm a crit, if you roll the threat range again, you roll to confirm a double crit, and if you you roll the threat range again... It's unlikely, but possible to double, triple or quadruple crit and that makes combat potentially very deadly.
Werral 03-25-07, 09:43 AM	Still I understand the OP's point, that systems do have an inherent philosophy. While there's an advantage to using more or less the same system (D&D or D20) when changing settings because you don't need to learn new rules. Back in the day we played lots of RPG's: MArvel Super Heroes, Pendragon, Warhammer, Ars Magica... Playing different rules did help change the atmosphere - deadliness is one example, magic systems is another (Pendragon has none, so magic is always mysterious - Merlin can do whatever the GM wants him to do), Alignment systems or Pendragons Traits/Passions system is another. Perhaps the rewards system is the most important: Karma in Marvel SUper Heroes encouraged players to behave like superheroes - not killing etc... You could play a ruthless Punisher type, you just never gained karma. Glory in Pendragon is very different from XP (you could gain glory from marriage, from hosting extravagant parties, as well as fighting monsters). Using story XP rather than CR you can encourage the style of play you want (maybe flavouring XP as "Honour" rather than experience). There was also a karma system in 2E Deities and Demigods (Indian mythos) you could pass on karma benefits to your next character (as their descendent). You could use this to encourage self-sacrificing samurai - the family gains XP (honour) for their actions and loses it for shameful ones (they fight less effectively because of their shame).
Ranger REG 03-25-07, 04:31 PM	Well, AEG have the advantage of creating the first RPG rules system for Legend of the Five Rings. They built their ruleset around that TCG-based setting from the bottom. If you take a setting (be it game-based or franchise-based) and marry it into an established ruleset while not being open-minded to rules tweaking is going to result in disaster. For d20, it's an evolving system. You can see it every time WotC publish a new gamebook, or from one of the third-party d20/OGL publishers. You also have a lot of tools to use. If you don't like the HP system, try the VP/WP. The advantage of outside third-party product is the publishers think "outside the box." For some, it's like being able to publish their own (hopefully successful) houserules and sell them (mostly on PDF). For their customers, it's like buying jeans. Not only does it fit with the rules, but it is something YOU and your group would use it. Sad to say, L5R/Rokugan is a poor candidate for WotC's OA. But it can be a contender as a third-party d20 product. Too bad we may never know.
Werral 03-25-07, 05:07 PM	What are VP/WP?
aelryinth 03-25-07, 07:19 PM	Vitality/Wound points is the former Star wars system. Essentially, Vitality points are your 'real' hit points from physical existnce, and Wound points are your 'luck' hit points that you gain as you level. Critical hits apply against Vitality points, not wounds, thus one crit most likely drops most characters (your vitality points = your COn score). The new star wars game being put out is going back to hit points simply because of the 'random factor' in the VP system...one crit, and anything can get dead, which over the long haul makes it almost impossibly to actually survive multiple levels of combat encounters. Hit points are an abstraction...they even go into detail to explain that hit points for vehicles, walls, and PC's are very different items. ===Aelryinth
narukagami 03-25-07, 07:36 PM	Essentially, Vitality points are your 'real' hit points from physical existnce, and Wound points are your 'luck' hit points that you gain as you level. Critical hits apply against Vitality points, not wounds, thus one crit most likely drops most characters (your vitality points = your COn score). Except its the other way around according to Unearthed Arcana.
narukagami 03-25-07, 07:43 PM	Well, AEG have the advantage of creating the first RPG rules system for Legend of the Five Rings. They built their ruleset around that TCG-based setting from the bottom. If you take a setting (be it game-based or franchise-based) and marry it into an established ruleset while not being open-minded to rules tweaking is going to result in disaster. For d20, it's an evolving system. You can see it every time WotC publish a new gamebook, or from one of the third-party d20/OGL publishers. You also have a lot of tools to use. If you don't like the HP system, try the VP/WP. The advantage of outside third-party product is the publishers think "outside the box." For some, it's like being able to publish their own (hopefully successful) houserules and sell them (mostly on PDF). For their customers, it's like buying jeans. Not only does it fit with the rules, but it is something YOU and your group would use it. Sad to say, L5R/Rokugan is a poor candidate for WotC's OA. But it can be a contender as a third-party d20 product. Too bad we may never know. And therein lies my problem with the current d20 Rokugan. They didn't bother to try and morph the d20 rules to make them more accepting of the L5R RPG philosophy, they just tacked L5R-ish mechanics onto D&D. Sure, one can houserule away all those problems very easily, but once again that still doesn't mean there wasn't a problem in the first place.
Azar_of_Faerun 03-25-07, 11:48 PM	I like using my Oriental Adventures book as is. A solid supplement when I wish to include asian flavor to my campaigns Bumpin' my opinion
ted_the_mindflayer 03-26-07, 07:59 AM	Sure, one can houserule away all those problems very easily, but once again that still doesn't mean there wasn't a problem in the first place. A problem for who? You maybe but many people i know play OA Rokugan pretty much comfortly ignorant of many of the L5R ideas and they seem to enjoy the setting. Changing the rules just allows both partys have it their way, the people who want to play a more L5R character true class can as well as the ones who want to play D&D (sans most of the add on rules)
Ranger REG 03-26-07, 09:32 PM	And therein lies my problem with the current d20 Rokugan. They didn't bother to try and morph the d20 rules to make them more accepting of the L5R RPG philosophy, they just tacked L5R-ish mechanics onto D&D. I dunno. AEG managed to deviate far off-base from OA in their supplement products that I do not even bother to skim through them. But I'm glad that OA is not built around L5R philosophy. It's generic yet flavorful enough to be used in any Asian-themed campaigns.
narukagami 03-26-07, 09:38 PM	But I'm glad that OA is not built around L5R philosophy. It's generic yet flavorful enough to be used in any Asian-themed campaigns. I'd have preferred Kara-Tur, regardless. :incog:
Ranger REG 03-26-07, 09:46 PM	:OMG! I thought you're a Rokugan fan.
narukagami 03-26-07, 09:49 PM	I thought you're a Rokugan fan. Only if I'm playing with the R&K system. :P In d20, I run my own homebrew setting, using alot of material I steal here and there. I also finally got hold of Sengoku, which will be impacting my game sooner or later. :smirk:
Ranger REG 03-26-07, 09:56 PM	Only if I'm playing with the R&K system. :P In d20, I run my own homebrew setting, using alot of material I steal here and there. I also finally got hold of Sengoku, which will be impacting my game sooner or later. :smirk: I use Sengoku to model the Kozakuran culture which is loosely based on the Warring Era, including the use of "no" in their names (similar to the German "von" or Spanish "de").
narukagami 03-26-07, 10:02 PM	I use Sengoku to model the Kozakuran culture which is loosely based on the Warring Era, Good idea. including the use of "no" in their names (similar to the German "von" or Spanish "de"). Or English "of" and/or "of the"?
Ranger REG 03-27-07, 08:48 PM	Good idea. Or English "of" and/or "of the"? :uh-huh: Uh, yeah. The English-speaking folks don't know that? :uh-huh:
narukagami 03-27-07, 08:52 PM	:uh-huh: Uh, yeah. The English-speaking folks don't know that? :uh-huh: You'd be surprised.
Azzy 03-28-07, 12:44 AM	I'd have preferred Kara-Tur, regardless. :incog: Can I get a "Hell yeah!":clap:
paladin2019 03-28-07, 03:10 AM	Amen, I mean, Hell yeah, brother!
Salla 03-29-07, 03:11 PM	If I recall correctly that Kara-Tur was in the Misbegotten ... I mean, Forgotten Realms, HELL NO! :D If not, I rescind the statement. Back on topic, somewhat, the less lethal combat of d20 is one of the reasons I prefer it to Roll and Keep. It's been my experience that the more lethal a system is, the less energy and effort players put into roleplaying the character and coming up with the character's backstory, as well as constructing the character. As one player put it, "Why should I spend two hours coming up with my backstory and personality and character sheet when I won't even get to play him that long?"
narukagami 03-29-07, 04:20 PM	If I recall correctly that Kara-Tur was in the Misbegotten ... I mean, Forgotten Realms, It should be noted that Kara-Tur was written originally as a stand alone setting, and was only given the FR tag and shoehorned into the setting as a marketing tool by TSR. The only relations it even has to the realms at all is the logo on the books. Back on topic, somewhat, the less lethal combat of d20 is one of the reasons I prefer it to Roll and Keep. It's been my experience that the more lethal a system is, the less energy and effort players put into roleplaying the character and coming up with the character's backstory, as well as constructing the character. As one player put it, "Why should I spend two hours coming up with my backstory and personality and character sheet when I won't even get to play him that long?" Thats the fault of the GM, not the system. The point of R&K's lethality (as displayed in the article) is that combat should be used as a dramatic tool. You don't use random encounters and combat isn't the only way to gain big XP. Thats the point. By putting less emphasis on combat, you get a greater emphasis on role play. R&K is not a hack and slash system. EDIT: Also, they made 3e L5R less deadly than the previous editions, though its still more deadly than D&D.
Ranger REG 03-30-07, 02:51 AM	If I recall correctly that Kara-Tur was in the Misbegotten ... I mean, Forgotten Realms, HELL YEAH!!! :cool: It may have started as a standalone setting, but I have long come to accept it as part of Abeir-Toril.
Salla 03-31-07, 08:13 AM	It should be noted that Kara-Tur was written originally as a stand alone setting, and was only given the FR tag and shoehorned into the setting as a marketing tool by TSR. The only relations it even has to the realms at all is the logo on the books. Thats the fault of the GM, not the system. The point of R&K's lethality (as displayed in the article) is that combat should be used as a dramatic tool. You don't use random encounters and combat isn't the only way to gain big XP. Thats the point. By putting less emphasis on combat, you get a greater emphasis on role play. R&K is not a hack and slash system. EDIT: Also, they made 3e L5R less deadly than the previous editions, though its still more deadly than D&D. Combat isn't the only way to gain XP in D&D, either, if you'd care to read the DMG more closely, by the way. Additionally, combat is RP as much as sitting around chatting is. Teamwork-oriented tactical thinker? Brawling thug? Flashy style vs down-to-earth? Spells vs swords vs fists? Banter or grim resolve? All aspects of a character. Besides, I have trouble seeing a gameworld where you get penalized for not being Generic Clan Stereotype as being 'RP focussed'. You kind of need a personality to RP.