Martial Sohei, a variant class [Archive] - Wizards Community

Martial Sohei, a variant class [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
madmonk
03-04-07, 09:06 AM This is my revamped, variant Sohei. It is a combination of the 3.5 sohei and the crusader. Comments are more than welcome. I assume you use the variant to have the Climb skill as the Stone Dragon’s key skill instead of balance, since balance is already a key skill for Iron Heart.

Disclaimer: I have seen many variant classes with everything from a table to new fluff. I will not do the same, providing only the essential information.

What do you need?: You need access to the Oriental Adventures, the Dragon Magazine #318 (the one with the 3.5 OA update), and the Tome of Battle. This class will effectively replace the crusader and standard Sohei classes.

Martial Sohei
(All the class features are the same as the 3.5 sohei version unless otherwise noted)

Class Skills: Climb (Str), Balance, Ride (Dex), Concentration (Con), Craft (any), Martial Lore, Knowledge (history, local, religion) (Int), Profession, Sense Motive (Wis), Diplomacy, Intimidate (Cha).
4+Int. Modifier per level, X4 at 1st level.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Sohei are proficient with Light and Medium Armors, and with all simple and martial weapons, and with unarmed strikes (effectively gaining Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat).

Abilities Lost: Spellcasting, Damage Reduction.

Abilities Modified: Ki Frenzy, Weapon Focus, Deflect Arrows, Defensive Strike, Mettle (changed level gained).

New Abilities:
1st
Respect for Wisdom: As long as you deal with people from your culture and they recognize you as a priest, you can use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Cha modifier for Diplomacy, Intimidate and Gather Information checks.
Furious Counterstrike and Steely Resolve: as a crusader of the same level.
Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus): As the swordsage ability.

Bonus Feats: 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, 18th: You gain a bonus feat from the warblade (changed to reflect accessible disciplines and unusual recovery method) or martial arts lists (the latter can be found in the OA book). You must meet the prerequisites for the feats as normal.

9th
Discipline Focus (Greater Weapon Focus): As the swordsage ability, only you gain greater weapon focus for all weapons of the discipline you chose at 1st level. You don't gain the Mettle ability at this level.

10th
Mettle: You gain the ability of the same name. See the Sohei for details.

Maneuvers and Ki Frenzy: You gain the same maneuvers and stances known of a warblade of your level. You have access to the following disciplines: Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Setting Sun, Stone Dragon and White Raven. All references to Int or Cha in the maneuvers are changed to Wis. You don’t prepare nor regain maneuvers as normal. You always have acces to your full repertory of maneuvers known, but are dependent to your ki reservoir (see below).

Ki Frenzy: This ability remains the same except for the following:
Duration: Unlike rage, your frenzied state does not diminished by rounds, it lasts indefinitely; however, using maneuvers expends your ki. You have a ki reservoir equal to your Wisdom modifier plus your level. Using a maneuver expends ki equal to the level of the maneuver. You must have sufficient ki to perform the maneuver, or you are unable to perform it.
-When you gain the Greater Frenzy ability and you are in a stance of the same discipline of the maneuver you are performing in the same round, each maneuver costs one less ki to perform (minimum 1).
-When you gain the Whirlwind Frenzy ability and you are in a stance of the same discipline of the maneuver you are performing in the same round, each maneuver costs two less ki to perform (minimum 1, but 1st level maneuvers are free).

Example: Benkei is a 4th level sohei with a Wis of 14. When he enters a ki frenzy, he has a reservoir of 6 ki. In the first round he performs a level 1 maneuver, reducing his reservoir to 5. During the course of the fight, benkei uses two 2nd level maneuvers, reducing his reservoir to 1. He can’t use 2nd level maneuvers anymore, and if he expends his last point of reservoir, he will be exhausted.
madmonk
03-05-07, 11:37 AM someone? anyone? no one?
Darth Sephiroth
03-05-07, 12:40 PM It seems interesting, but also somewhat odd at the same time. The Ki Frenzy use of Maneuvers seems rather weak actually though. It needs to be bumped up somehow because it seems like you'll quickly run out of Maneuvers much faster than any of the other Marital Adept classes.

One idea is that you regenerate Ki as a slow rate such as 1/round per 5 levels in the class.
madmonk
03-05-07, 12:45 PM Well yes, but you have ALL your maneuvers at your disposal, and also can activate them more than once in a combat without expending any action. I really was afraid that it was overkill, but maybe you are right, I will make some examples later.

Edit: All your bumps are belong to us!
madmonk
03-06-07, 10:59 PM All your bumps, are belong to us!
Comments are much more than welcome :embarrass
heretic888
03-07-07, 09:31 AM I'm gonna be honest, madmonk, its really hard for me to follow this class without a table and such. I doubt I'm the only one with this sentiment, too.

So, out of the goodness of my heart, I decided to do your work for you (I'm kidding ;) ):

Base Fort Ref Will Maneuvers Maneuvers Stances
Level Attack Bonus Save Save Save Special Known Readied Known
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Discipline focus (Weapon Focus), furious counterstrike, 3 3 1
ki frenzy, respect for wisdom, steely resolve 5
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Bonus feat 4 3 1
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Diehard (?), steely resolve 10 5 3 1
4th +3 +4 +1 +4 -- 5 4 2
5th +3 +4 +1 +4 -- 6 4 2
6th +4 +5 +2 +5 Bonus feat 6 4 2
7th +5 +5 +2 +5 -- 7 4 2
8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 Steely resolve 15 7 4 2
9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 Discipline focus (Greater Weapon Focus) 8 4 2
10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 Bonus feat, mettle 8 5 3
11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 Greater frenzy 9 5 3
12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Steely resolve 20 9 5 3
13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 -- 10 5 3
14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 Bonus feat 10 5 3
15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 -- 11 6 3
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Steely resolve 25 11 6 4
17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Tireless frenzy (?) 12 6 4
18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Bonus feat 12 6 4
19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 -- 13 6 4
20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Steely resolve 30, whirlwind frenzy 13 7 4

Note: I put a (?) behind class abilities whose status is currently uncertain (you don't mention whether they were changed or not in the text).

Comments to follow.
heretic888
03-07-07, 10:30 AM Okay, a few things....

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Sohei are proficient with Light and Medium Armors, and with all simple and martial weapons, and with unarmed strikes (effectively gaining Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat).

"Unarmed strike" is listed under the simple weapons chart in the Player's Handbook, so this description is confusing and somewhat redundant.

Furthermore, proficiency with unarmed strike is not the same as having the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Being proficient with unarmed strikes just means you don't suffer a -4 nonproficiency penalty on your attack roll. You still provoke attacks of opportunity when fighting an armed opponent and you are still unable of dealing lethal damage.

You need to clarify whether the Martial Sohei gains the Improved Unarmed Strike feat or not. As it is currently written, the class does not gain this feat although you imply that it does.

Abilities Modified: Ki Frenzy, Weapon Focus, Deflect Arrows, Defensive Strike, Mettle (changed level gained).

What about the Diehard feat gained at 3rd level?? Does this remain in place??

New Abilities:
1st
Respect for Wisdom: As long as you deal with people from your culture and they recognize you as a priest, you can use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Cha modifier for Diplomacy, Intimidate and Gather Information checks.
Furious Counterstrike and Steely Resolve: as a crusader of the same level.
Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus): As the swordsage ability.

That's a lot of abilities at 1st level. If you decide to include the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, it adds up to six 1st-level abilities. That's on top of three martial maneuvers, too.

Ki Frenzy: This ability remains the same except for the following:
Duration: Unlike rage, your frenzied state does not diminished by rounds, it lasts indefinitely; however, using maneuvers expends your ki. You have a ki reservoir equal to your Wisdom modifier plus your level. Using a maneuver expends ki equal to the level of the maneuver. You must have sufficient ki to perform the maneuver, or you are unable to perform it.
-When you gain the Greater Frenzy ability and you are in a stance of the same discipline of the maneuver you are performing in the same round, each maneuver costs one less ki to perform (minimum 1).
-When you gain the Whirlwind Frenzy ability and you are in a stance of the same discipline of the maneuver you are performing in the same round, each maneuver costs two less ki to perform (minimum 1, but 1st level maneuvers are free).

What about the Tireless Frenzy ability gained at 17th level?? Does this affect the Martial Sohei's abilities any??

Hope this helps.
madmonk
03-07-07, 11:41 AM I'm gonna be honest, madmonk, its really hard for me to follow this class without a table and such. I doubt I'm the only one with this sentiment, too.
So, out of the goodness of my heart, I decided to do your work for you (I'm kidding ;) ):

No you were not kidding, you DID my work for me! (I must someday learn how to do that damned tables)

Yes, I agree with the many abilities at first level... I will change them and, stealing your table code, will give it more form... not right now, I have to go to work :(
heretic888
03-07-07, 12:27 PM No you were not kidding, you DID my work for me! (I must someday learn how to do that damned tables)

I'll let you in on a little secret. ;)

Create your table the way you want in a text file (.txt) with the preferred spacing, lining up, and so forth. Then, just copy-and-paste the text onto your post, within a /code wraparound. All of the formatting (including spacing, tabs, and so on) from the original text file is saved with the /code function.

All you have to do then is add bolding and underlining for for the top row of text and you're all set.

Laterz.
AllisterH
04-08-07, 02:32 PM You need to limit the number of disciplines you give access to. I've seen a lot of people with their ToB classes and they give access to more disciplines than the swordsage.

Remember, the blade wizard, the class that represents the generalist of the nine swords gains access to only 6 of the 9. The warblade himself has 5 while the crusader, the one you match this with, only has access to 3.

The sohei at most IMO, should have access to 4 (I would actually go with 3) since the more I play and use ToB, the more I realize this book IS very well balanced and one of the balancing features _IS_ restricted access to disciplines.

Secondly, giving access to ALL of the manoeuvers only limited by Ki? Not sure how this will work since one balancing feature IS the fact that martial adepts only have a few manoeuvers readied at any one time and potentially they can be caught without the "best" manoeuver for the time..
madmonk
04-09-07, 12:31 PM You need to limit the number of disciplines you give access to. I've seen a lot of people with their ToB classes and they give access to more disciplines than the swordsage.

Remember, the blade wizard, the class that represents the generalist of the nine swords gains access to only 6 of the 9. The warblade himself has 5 while the crusader, the one you match this with, only has access to 3.

The sohei at most IMO, should have access to 4 (I would actually go with 3) since the more I play and use ToB, the more I realize this book IS very well balanced and one of the balancing features _IS_ restricted access to disciplines.

Yes. Originally, I envisioned the Sohei as having acces to only two disciplines, chosen by the order (DM and Player) to represent their style of fighting. However, Mike Mearls, one of the authors of the book, already said that you could give complete discipline access to ALL of the classes and they would still be balanced. So I thought that it would be better to just give acces and that's it. I will add a note when I change all the structure of my post, but I haven't had time.

Secondly, giving access to ALL of the manoeuvers only limited by Ki? Not sure how this will work since one balancing feature IS the fact that martial adepts only have a few manoeuvers readied at any one time and potentially they can be caught without the "best" manoeuver for the time..

The only thing I really disliked about the ToB was the "vancian goes melee" system they designed. Everything about the book is cool, balanced and well designed, except for that.

I made my sohei with that in mind. You could use a lot of lesser maneuvers (specially at higher levels), or you could go for the big bang and use higher level ones. You could use two or maybe three powerful maneuvers and thats it, but if you that you are either very desperate or want to end things quick. It is a similar approach as psionics. Prepare combat maneuvers? Nonsense!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
madmonk 03-04-07, 09:06 AM	This is my revamped, variant Sohei. It is a combination of the 3.5 sohei and the crusader. Comments are more than welcome. I assume you use the variant to have the Climb skill as the Stone Dragon’s key skill instead of balance, since balance is already a key skill for Iron Heart. Disclaimer: I have seen many variant classes with everything from a table to new fluff. I will not do the same, providing only the essential information. What do you need?: You need access to the Oriental Adventures, the Dragon Magazine #318 (the one with the 3.5 OA update), and the Tome of Battle. This class will effectively replace the crusader and standard Sohei classes. Martial Sohei (All the class features are the same as the 3.5 sohei version unless otherwise noted) Class Skills: Climb (Str), Balance, Ride (Dex), Concentration (Con), Craft (any), Martial Lore, Knowledge (history, local, religion) (Int), Profession, Sense Motive (Wis), Diplomacy, Intimidate (Cha). 4+Int. Modifier per level, X4 at 1st level. Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Sohei are proficient with Light and Medium Armors, and with all simple and martial weapons, and with unarmed strikes (effectively gaining Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat). Abilities Lost: Spellcasting, Damage Reduction. Abilities Modified: Ki Frenzy, Weapon Focus, Deflect Arrows, Defensive Strike, Mettle (changed level gained). New Abilities: 1st Respect for Wisdom: As long as you deal with people from your culture and they recognize you as a priest, you can use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Cha modifier for Diplomacy, Intimidate and Gather Information checks. Furious Counterstrike and Steely Resolve: as a crusader of the same level. Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus): As the swordsage ability. Bonus Feats: 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, 18th: You gain a bonus feat from the warblade (changed to reflect accessible disciplines and unusual recovery method) or martial arts lists (the latter can be found in the OA book). You must meet the prerequisites for the feats as normal. 9th Discipline Focus (Greater Weapon Focus): As the swordsage ability, only you gain greater weapon focus for all weapons of the discipline you chose at 1st level. You don't gain the Mettle ability at this level. 10th Mettle: You gain the ability of the same name. See the Sohei for details. Maneuvers and Ki Frenzy: You gain the same maneuvers and stances known of a warblade of your level. You have access to the following disciplines: Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Setting Sun, Stone Dragon and White Raven. All references to Int or Cha in the maneuvers are changed to Wis. You don’t prepare nor regain maneuvers as normal. You always have acces to your full repertory of maneuvers known, but are dependent to your ki reservoir (see below). Ki Frenzy: This ability remains the same except for the following: Duration: Unlike rage, your frenzied state does not diminished by rounds, it lasts indefinitely; however, using maneuvers expends your ki. You have a ki reservoir equal to your Wisdom modifier plus your level. Using a maneuver expends ki equal to the level of the maneuver. You must have sufficient ki to perform the maneuver, or you are unable to perform it. -When you gain the Greater Frenzy ability and you are in a stance of the same discipline of the maneuver you are performing in the same round, each maneuver costs one less ki to perform (minimum 1). -When you gain the Whirlwind Frenzy ability and you are in a stance of the same discipline of the maneuver you are performing in the same round, each maneuver costs two less ki to perform (minimum 1, but 1st level maneuvers are free). Example: Benkei is a 4th level sohei with a Wis of 14. When he enters a ki frenzy, he has a reservoir of 6 ki. In the first round he performs a level 1 maneuver, reducing his reservoir to 5. During the course of the fight, benkei uses two 2nd level maneuvers, reducing his reservoir to 1. He can’t use 2nd level maneuvers anymore, and if he expends his last point of reservoir, he will be exhausted.
madmonk 03-05-07, 11:37 AM	someone? anyone? no one?
Darth Sephiroth 03-05-07, 12:40 PM	It seems interesting, but also somewhat odd at the same time. The Ki Frenzy use of Maneuvers seems rather weak actually though. It needs to be bumped up somehow because it seems like you'll quickly run out of Maneuvers much faster than any of the other Marital Adept classes. One idea is that you regenerate Ki as a slow rate such as 1/round per 5 levels in the class.
madmonk 03-05-07, 12:45 PM	Well yes, but you have ALL your maneuvers at your disposal, and also can activate them more than once in a combat without expending any action. I really was afraid that it was overkill, but maybe you are right, I will make some examples later. Edit: All your bumps are belong to us!
madmonk 03-06-07, 10:59 PM	All your bumps, are belong to us! Comments are much more than welcome :embarrass
heretic888 03-07-07, 09:31 AM	I'm gonna be honest, madmonk, its really hard for me to follow this class without a table and such. I doubt I'm the only one with this sentiment, too. So, out of the goodness of my heart, I decided to do your work for you (I'm kidding ;) ): Base Fort Ref Will Maneuvers Maneuvers Stances Level Attack Bonus Save Save Save Special Known Readied Known 1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Discipline focus (Weapon Focus), furious counterstrike, 3 3 1 ki frenzy, respect for wisdom, steely resolve 5 2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Bonus feat 4 3 1 3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Diehard (?), steely resolve 10 5 3 1 4th +3 +4 +1 +4 -- 5 4 2 5th +3 +4 +1 +4 -- 6 4 2 6th +4 +5 +2 +5 Bonus feat 6 4 2 7th +5 +5 +2 +5 -- 7 4 2 8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 Steely resolve 15 7 4 2 9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 Discipline focus (Greater Weapon Focus) 8 4 2 10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 Bonus feat, mettle 8 5 3 11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 Greater frenzy 9 5 3 12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Steely resolve 20 9 5 3 13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 -- 10 5 3 14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 Bonus feat 10 5 3 15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 -- 11 6 3 16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Steely resolve 25 11 6 4 17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Tireless frenzy (?) 12 6 4 18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Bonus feat 12 6 4 19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 -- 13 6 4 20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Steely resolve 30, whirlwind frenzy 13 7 4 Note: I put a (?) behind class abilities whose status is currently uncertain (you don't mention whether they were changed or not in the text). Comments to follow.
heretic888 03-07-07, 10:30 AM	Okay, a few things.... Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Sohei are proficient with Light and Medium Armors, and with all simple and martial weapons, and with unarmed strikes (effectively gaining Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat). "Unarmed strike" is listed under the simple weapons chart in the Player's Handbook, so this description is confusing and somewhat redundant. Furthermore, proficiency with unarmed strike is not the same as having the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Being proficient with unarmed strikes just means you don't suffer a -4 nonproficiency penalty on your attack roll. You still provoke attacks of opportunity when fighting an armed opponent and you are still unable of dealing lethal damage. You need to clarify whether the Martial Sohei gains the Improved Unarmed Strike feat or not. As it is currently written, the class does not gain this feat although you imply that it does. Abilities Modified: Ki Frenzy, Weapon Focus, Deflect Arrows, Defensive Strike, Mettle (changed level gained). What about the Diehard feat gained at 3rd level?? Does this remain in place?? New Abilities: 1st Respect for Wisdom: As long as you deal with people from your culture and they recognize you as a priest, you can use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Cha modifier for Diplomacy, Intimidate and Gather Information checks. Furious Counterstrike and Steely Resolve: as a crusader of the same level. Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus): As the swordsage ability. That's a lot of abilities at 1st level. If you decide to include the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, it adds up to six 1st-level abilities. That's on top of three martial maneuvers, too. Ki Frenzy: This ability remains the same except for the following: Duration: Unlike rage, your frenzied state does not diminished by rounds, it lasts indefinitely; however, using maneuvers expends your ki. You have a ki reservoir equal to your Wisdom modifier plus your level. Using a maneuver expends ki equal to the level of the maneuver. You must have sufficient ki to perform the maneuver, or you are unable to perform it. -When you gain the Greater Frenzy ability and you are in a stance of the same discipline of the maneuver you are performing in the same round, each maneuver costs one less ki to perform (minimum 1). -When you gain the Whirlwind Frenzy ability and you are in a stance of the same discipline of the maneuver you are performing in the same round, each maneuver costs two less ki to perform (minimum 1, but 1st level maneuvers are free). What about the Tireless Frenzy ability gained at 17th level?? Does this affect the Martial Sohei's abilities any?? Hope this helps.
madmonk 03-07-07, 11:41 AM	I'm gonna be honest, madmonk, its really hard for me to follow this class without a table and such. I doubt I'm the only one with this sentiment, too. So, out of the goodness of my heart, I decided to do your work for you (I'm kidding ;) ): No you were not kidding, you DID my work for me! (I must someday learn how to do that damned tables) Yes, I agree with the many abilities at first level... I will change them and, stealing your table code, will give it more form... not right now, I have to go to work :(
heretic888 03-07-07, 12:27 PM	No you were not kidding, you DID my work for me! (I must someday learn how to do that damned tables) I'll let you in on a little secret. ;) Create your table the way you want in a text file (.txt) with the preferred spacing, lining up, and so forth. Then, just copy-and-paste the text onto your post, within a /code wraparound. All of the formatting (including spacing, tabs, and so on) from the original text file is saved with the /code function. All you have to do then is add bolding and underlining for for the top row of text and you're all set. Laterz.
AllisterH 04-08-07, 02:32 PM	You need to limit the number of disciplines you give access to. I've seen a lot of people with their ToB classes and they give access to more disciplines than the swordsage. Remember, the blade wizard, the class that represents the generalist of the nine swords gains access to only 6 of the 9. The warblade himself has 5 while the crusader, the one you match this with, only has access to 3. The sohei at most IMO, should have access to 4 (I would actually go with 3) since the more I play and use ToB, the more I realize this book IS very well balanced and one of the balancing features _IS_ restricted access to disciplines. Secondly, giving access to ALL of the manoeuvers only limited by Ki? Not sure how this will work since one balancing feature IS the fact that martial adepts only have a few manoeuvers readied at any one time and potentially they can be caught without the "best" manoeuver for the time..
madmonk 04-09-07, 12:31 PM	You need to limit the number of disciplines you give access to. I've seen a lot of people with their ToB classes and they give access to more disciplines than the swordsage. Remember, the blade wizard, the class that represents the generalist of the nine swords gains access to only 6 of the 9. The warblade himself has 5 while the crusader, the one you match this with, only has access to 3. The sohei at most IMO, should have access to 4 (I would actually go with 3) since the more I play and use ToB, the more I realize this book IS very well balanced and one of the balancing features _IS_ restricted access to disciplines. Yes. Originally, I envisioned the Sohei as having acces to only two disciplines, chosen by the order (DM and Player) to represent their style of fighting. However, Mike Mearls, one of the authors of the book, already said that you could give complete discipline access to ALL of the classes and they would still be balanced. So I thought that it would be better to just give acces and that's it. I will add a note when I change all the structure of my post, but I haven't had time. Secondly, giving access to ALL of the manoeuvers only limited by Ki? Not sure how this will work since one balancing feature IS the fact that martial adepts only have a few manoeuvers readied at any one time and potentially they can be caught without the "best" manoeuver for the time.. The only thing I really disliked about the ToB was the "vancian goes melee" system they designed. Everything about the book is cool, balanced and well designed, except for that. I made my sohei with that in mind. You could use a lot of lesser maneuvers (specially at higher levels), or you could go for the big bang and use higher level ones. You could use two or maybe three powerful maneuvers and thats it, but if you that you are either very desperate or want to end things quick. It is a similar approach as psionics. Prepare combat maneuvers? Nonsense!