Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ObscureGamer 03-20-07, 08:26 PM	I'm not meaning for this thread to be one of those "which is better - d20 or AEG?" disputes - other threads already have that well covered. I've already accepted that OA has a place in DnD. My question is, isn't there something else that can be done with magic? I don't feel like the wu jen does much justice to giving magic an Asian flavor. As near as I can tell, "wu jen" is meaningless gibberish in Mandarin Chinese, meaning something akin to "clan humanity". The spell list is mostly PHB spells, arbitrarily re-categorized by element in addition to school, with 7 or 8 new spells thrown in here and there. Not really that much more unique than the warmage, a smattering of offensive spells, with a few new ones thrown in for good measure. So what is it exactly about the wu jen that makes it uniquely Asian? Is it the fact that the spells are assigned elements to belong to? Is it the goofy name that resists attempts at translation? Or is it the metamagic feats they get? It certainly isn't their spellbooks. In fact, the latter feature makes a wu jen very little different from the usual European magus found in DnD, poring over a tome. Even material spell components seem foolish and anti-setting, since Asian mystics lack the Western Platonic/Aristotelian concepts of force and matter, or "you can't get something for nothing". Asian mages shouldn't be MacGuyvers. Maybe it's the wu jen's OCD rituals that make them unique....in which case, Howard Hughes was probably an epic-level wu jen. I won't get into shugenja much, since they were designed to be used specifically for OA and not just for any setting or world (or at least that's how I feel), although the spell list makes me feel that WotC tried to juggle the shugenja's traditional role, with the usual Healy McHealwell role of western-style DnD divine casters. I pored over OA, Rokugan, and MoR, hoping to find an array of unique spells. I found OA to be wanting, and although there was some more in Rokugan and MoR, it seemed like too little, too late. The more I think about it, the more I begin to think that DnD's magic system is fundamentally biased toward Western-style magic....it's very difficult to stay within the 3.5 ruleset and make a mage who isn't a tome-poring howitzer that requires 8 hours to reload. By the same token, it would be daunting to make a jedi using core DnD rules. Does anyone have any suggestions for possible new ways to reinvent Oriental-style magic using characters, instead of just defending the ones that already exist?
Ogrelee 03-20-07, 09:29 PM	Have you looked into "Elements Of Magic"? I think the first issue works very well, with the Wu jen in question using hand seals to cast their spells. Obviously, a still spell becomes an almost supernatural ability. (I personally despise the WOTC Ninja take on Kuji kiri being some form of hypnosis.) I don't see what the problem is with the standard spell lists tho. if you don't like the names rename them. If you don't like the spell casting mechanics, change them. What is your personal take on oriental magic? Mudras? Written scriptures? Well, then that's how they cast their spells. See? Problem solved.;}
ObscureGamer 03-20-07, 10:04 PM	By that same logic, why do bards need their own spell lists? Can't they just use the same one that sorcerers and wizards use? Why don't druids use the same spell list as clerics? And rangers and paladins use the same ones as clerics? Which spells are on a spell list, say a lot not just about a caster's capabilities, but also a lot about his views on magic and how it ought to be used. So what would happen if a wizard and a wu jen met? "I can cast Fireball." "I can cast Teeth of Osano-Wo (Fireball)." If nomenclature is enough to set the desired mood, can't we just not buy OA at all, and rename paladins as samurai and wizards as wu jen? It's a valid question. I was looking for more than names, but also mechanics that had a uniquely Asian flavor, but thanks for responding.
Lord Gwydion 03-20-07, 10:43 PM	If nomenclature is enough to set the desired mood, can't we just not buy OA at all, and rename paladins as samurai and wizards as wu jen? It's a valid question. Actually, yes. As we've been discussing (or at least trying to) in the "historical accuracy" thread, there's really nothing in the PHB that can't be used, just with slightly different flavor text. The PHB even encourages this (it was definitely in the 3.0 PHB, don't remember seeing it in the 3.5 version--but there was a section on renaming skills/feats/class abilities/spells to fit your flavor, something about Lidda calling Move Silently "cats' walk" and the Monk chick calling it "rice paper walk" or something like that). There's really nothing different about a Frankish Paladin (historical knight, not the holy warrior class), a Turkish Mameluk, a Norse Viking, a Chinese Wuxia, a Japanese Samurai, an Aztec "whatever the Aztecs called their warriors" or any other historical preference you have that can't be emulated with the Fighter class. It's just a subconscious desire to make OA different because people think it should be different that results in the different OA classes being nearly the same as the standard but with a few tweaks. Now, mechanically--ignoring all flavor, there is room for the "educated" or "aristocratic" warrior that the OA Samurai class provides (in Western games as well as Eastern), and the spontaneous divine caster that the Shugenja provides, for example. All 5 classes are just slight modifications of PHB classes: the Fighter (Samurai), Paladin/Barbarian (Sohei), Cleric/Druid (Shaman), Sorcerer/Cleric (Shugenja) and Wizard (Wu Jen). As for spellcasting, first off there are a few more than 8 new spells. There's like 8 pages of spells. And yes, the spellcasting mechanics are the same, but that's, IMO, got more to do with the fact that we're playing D&D here, than with some phony distinction between "Eastern" and "Western" spellcasting. I say this because if you look at most myths and legends from Europe and the Middle East, you're not likely to find any magicians that operate under the Vancian rules that D&D follows. Merlin, Gandalf, Amergin, Prospero--how many of them used bat guano to create an explosion, and were limited to how many they could throw per day after preparing themselves in the morning to do it? I think if you want different mechanics, there are some options out there (psionics, incarnum, etc.) that you could use. But no matter what you pick, you're going to have to re-flavor them for OA. Because really, that's all that OA games are when you get right down to it--same old mechanics, different flavor.
Ranger REG 03-20-07, 10:56 PM	Does anyone have any suggestions for possible new ways to reinvent Oriental-style magic using characters, instead of just defending the ones that already exist? We could, but I still believe the magic system should be universal. I don't like one system works for the East and one works for the West, if they cannot integrate with one another.
heretic888 03-21-07, 08:05 AM	Actually, yes. As we've been discussing (or at least trying to) in the "historical accuracy" thread, there's really nothing in the PHB that can't be used, just with slightly different flavor text. The PHB even encourages this (it was definitely in the 3.0 PHB, don't remember seeing it in the 3.5 version--but there was a section on renaming skills/feats/class abilities/spells to fit your flavor, something about Lidda calling Move Silently "cats' walk" and the Monk chick calling it "rice paper walk" or something like that). There's really nothing different about a Frankish Paladin (historical knight, not the holy warrior class), a Turkish Mameluk, a Norse Viking, a Chinese Wuxia, a Japanese Samurai, an Aztec "whatever the Aztecs called their warriors" or any other historical preference you have that can't be emulated with the Fighter class. It's just a subconscious desire to make OA different because people think it should be different that results in the different OA classes being nearly the same as the standard but with a few tweaks. Now, mechanically--ignoring all flavor, there is room for the "educated" or "aristocratic" warrior that the OA Samurai class provides (in Western games as well as Eastern), and the spontaneous divine caster that the Shugenja provides, for example. All 5 classes are just slight modifications of PHB classes: the Fighter (Samurai), Paladin/Barbarian (Sohei), Cleric/Druid (Shaman), Sorcerer/Cleric (Shugenja) and Wizard (Wu Jen). As for spellcasting, first off there are a few more than 8 new spells. There's like 8 pages of spells. And yes, the spellcasting mechanics are the same, but that's, IMO, got more to do with the fact that we're playing D&D here, than with some phony distinction between "Eastern" and "Western" spellcasting. I say this because if you look at most myths and legends from Europe and the Middle East, you're not likely to find any magicians that operate under the Vancian rules that D&D follows. Merlin, Gandalf, Amergin, Prospero--how many of them used bat guano to create an explosion, and were limited to how many they could throw per day after preparing themselves in the morning to do it? I think if you want different mechanics, there are some options out there (psionics, incarnum, etc.) that you could use. But no matter what you pick, you're going to have to re-flavor them for OA. Because really, that's all that OA games are when you get right down to it--same old mechanics, different flavor. http://nindb.classicgaming.gamespy.com/ac/images/cam/aw_1b.jpg
Hochiu 03-21-07, 08:36 PM	Well said, Gwydion.
Azzy 03-23-07, 11:29 AM	Well said, Gwydion. Agreed.