Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ericSHINRA 04-18-07, 09:58 PM	Ok, while I believe I have a good grasp of what life and society in Asia was like outside of what is shown in popular culuture, I'm here to see if I can gain a better understanding of Japanese and Chinese culture in the so-called 'Feudal Era'. I'm not expecting essays here but any information or books to reference would be helpful. The board members here have always been a big help so I'll give my thanks now to anyone who can help me answer these questions. 1. Were the average citizens or peasants literate? Also, in Japan members of the lower classes had only one name, correct? No surname? 2. Ok, now, from what I've read and seen portrayed in some period pieces, Japanese men valued Homosexual love above Heterosexual love. Is this true and if so to what extent was this practice prevalent? I'm confident this only occured within the warrior and upper castes, yes? 3. On too public decency and the like. Was nudity and/or much showing much skin a tabboo or frowned upon? This is baseless question apart from seeing little imagery in asian art of warriors as well as ordinary citizens in the nude like you'd see in Greek art. 4. How pious were most citizens? Did this vary depending on class rank or standing in society? Also, how important were superstitions to these common folk and even the nobility? 5. Were all Samurai Lawful-types? Some discipline is to be expected but I doubt this was the case but I could be wrong. 6. Most Ninja were actually Samurai, yes? 7. How did combat/warfare vary between the Japanese and Chinese cultures? 8. What is the source of the Japanese 'superiority complex'? Did play any part in conflicts between the Japanese people? Thats all I've got for now. Thanks again for anyone who can help.
narukagami 04-18-07, 10:35 PM	First: I'm no expert on China, Japan is my forte', so I can't help you in that regard. Ok, while I believe I have a good grasp of what life and society in Asia was like outside of what is shown in popular culuture, I'm here to see if I can gain a better understanding of Japanese and Chinese culture in the so-called 'Feudal Era'. I'm not expecting essays here but any information or books to reference would be helpful. Get the Sengoku RPG. Even if you never use the rules, its a wealth of information. As well as anything by Stephen Turnbull and/or Karl Friday. 1. Were the average citizens or peasants literate? Also, in Japan members of the lower classes had only one name, correct? No surname? Yes and no. Literacy was pretty valued in Japan if I recall correctly, but to be honest I've never looked deeply into the statistics. I would imagine occupation was a factor. 2. Ok, now, from what I've read and seen portrayed in some period pieces, Japanese men valued Homosexual love above Heterosexual love. Is this true and if so to what extent was this practice prevalent? I'm confident this only occured within the warrior and upper castes, yes? I think it was more prevalent in the Edo jidai than other eras. But, yes. 3. On too public decency and the like. Was nudity and/or much showing much skin a tabboo or frowned upon? This is baseless question apart from seeing little imagery in asian art of warriors as well as ordinary citizens in the nude like you'd see in Greek art. "Cultured" women wore 12+ layers of clothing for a reason ;). But otherwise, I'm certain full nudity while in public was frowned upon. Though it wasn't uncommon for laborers to be wearing only their skivvies to work on a hot sunny day, warriors to be wearing nothing but a loincloth under armor, and of course there were public bath houses and hot springs. So I would say "depends on the circumstance". 4. How pious were most citizens? Did this vary depending on class rank or standing in society? Also, how important were superstitions to these common folk and even the nobility? Varied on social strata. The peasantry was very superstitious, as they should be considering their livelihood could be gone in an instant of nature's wrath. Once you get into the upper echelon, it varies. Some samurai were VERY pious, Takeda Shingen and Uesugi Kenshin, for example, were high priests as well as daimyo. Others would pay lip service to religions. Others just didn't care at all. 5. Were all Samurai Lawful-types? Some discipline is to be expected but I doubt this was the case but I could be wrong. Depends on era. Samurai in the Edo jidai (under the Tokugawa Shogunate) were taught loyalty to the extreme. In earlier eras, not so much. Betrayal, deception, lying, cheating, stealing, none of these things were below many samurai. 6. Most Ninja were actually Samurai, yes? Yup. 7. How did combat/warfare vary between the Japanese and Chinese cultures? Again, I'm no expert on China, but I hear it was very influential on Japanese warfare. Sun Tsu's writings were highly respected in both countries. 8. What is the source of the Japanese 'superiority complex'? Did play any part in conflicts between the Japanese people? In short, there are MANY things that could attribute to this, you're probably better off doing a more in depth research on your own. But I'd say it may stem mostly from religious belief, social emphasis on appearances and "face", and possibly just being ruled by endless strings of megalomaniacs. You're welcome.
ericSHINRA 04-18-07, 10:47 PM	Wow. Thanks for all the help, Narukagami. I'm not sure as to what character I'll be playing in my next game but this is really helpful. I've read The Art of War but I'll look into both Stephen Turnbull and Karl Friday. The whole 'superiority complex' comment was there not as a racist remark towards the Japanese but to try and make sense of why they looked upon other peoples as being 'non-human'.
Lord Gwydion 04-18-07, 11:35 PM	I'm not an expert on China, but I've read a few books. So as usual, further research will get you better answers than what I'm about to provide. Ok, while I believe I have a good grasp of what life and society in Asia was like outside of what is shown in popular culuture, I'm here to see if I can gain a better understanding of Japanese and Chinese culture in the so-called 'Feudal Era'. I'm not expecting essays here but any information or books to reference would be helpful. The board members here have always been a big help so I'll give my thanks now to anyone who can help me answer these questions. First of all, just be aware that the Japanese Feudal Era doesn't correspond 100% to the various Chinese feudal eras that typically occured as one dynasty declined but before the next dynasty appeared. The Chinese Warring States period happened 2000 years before the Japanese Warring States period. The Chinese 3 Kingdoms era (after the fall of the Han Dynasty around 280 AD) was a feudal era. The era between the Tang and Song Dynasties was again full of strife. If I'm not mistaken, the Latter or Southern Song Dynasty era (later 1100's to early 1200's) was also fairly feudal, as Song collapsed with infighting between Chinese warlords, and the establishment of the Jurchen (I think it was Jurchen) Jin around Beijing, then conquest by the Mongols (beginning the Yuan Dynasty) was pretty chaotic as well. Likely, the end of Yuan/beginning of Ming, and fall of Ming/beginning of the Manchu (what was the name of their Dynasty?) were chaotic and had feudal warlords vying for power as well. So there's a lot to work with for China, and a lot of variance. 1. Were the average citizens or peasants literate? Also, in Japan members of the lower classes had only one name, correct? No surname? In China, literacy was highly valued, but most peasants would likely have been illiterate. The wealthy, the town dwellers (artisans, merchants, aristocrats), and of course scholars and bureaucrats were mostly literate. So tennant farmers, small farmers, manual laborers, and the underclasses were likely not literate, but the more affluent or citified citizenry likely were. 2. Ok, now, from what I've read and seen portrayed in some period pieces, Japanese men valued Homosexual love above Heterosexual love. Is this true and if so to what extent was this practice prevalent? I'm confident this only occured within the warrior and upper castes, yes? From what I've read, this wasn't any more or less prevalent than it is today, or in Ancient Athens. In other words, there were those who practiced it, those who supported it, but the vast majority were heterosexual and liked it that way. 3. On too public decency and the like. Was nudity and/or much showing much skin a tabboo or frowned upon? This is baseless question apart from seeing little imagery in asian art of warriors as well as ordinary citizens in the nude like you'd see in Greek art. I haven't read much per se about this issue, but in more ancient times, there were harvest festivals for the adolescent peasants of China that basically led to orgies and pairing up of youth for weddings. Again, in general, people kept their clothes on in public. And the higher your social class, the less acceptable it is to be barely clothed in public. There is erotic art from back then, though. 4. How pious were most citizens? Did this vary depending on class rank or standing in society? Also, how important were superstitions to these common folk and even the nobility? Taoism and Buddhism don't necessarily inspire a lot of piety from the lay people. If you were a priest/monk, then you were likely pretty pious, but the average people weren't required to go to church on Sundays or things like that, and likely were not very religious by Judeo-Christian standards. 5. Were all Samurai Lawful-types? Some discipline is to be expected but I doubt this was the case but I could be wrong. Narukagami covered this on pretty well, and I'm trying to stick to China, so I'll pass on it. :) 6. Most Ninja were actually Samurai, yes? ditto 7. How did combat/warfare vary between the Japanese and Chinese cultures? China had just about every type of warfare imaginable practiced within it somewhere at sometime. 8. What is the source of the Japanese 'superiority complex'? Did play any part in conflicts between the Japanese people? This is more of a modernism, really. Although China has always considered itself as the only Civilization, and all others barbaric by Chinese standards (which the Japanese borrowed to show they were civilized too...), I think this "Japanese Superiority" as you name it was a product of the Meiji era, as Japan tried to modernize fast enough to keep the Europeans and Americans from colonizing/dominating it as it had with China. Hope this helps, and again, please research anything I said here, as I'm going from pure memory and typing fast because it's time for lunch!
ericSHINRA 04-18-07, 11:40 PM	Thanks to you too, Gwydion. I'm fairly certain my DM is leaning towards Japanese influences rather then Chinese but I'm sure the information will be useful in roleplaying knowledge about Chinese culture. I asked about Chinese warfare because our PC group is to be comprised of Avatars from our respective Clans and I fully expect he might through a few Chinese twists into the combat and possibly the inclusion of weapons and other gear such as the shield which you dont find in Japanese warfare.
Swordsage_Master 04-18-07, 11:42 PM	Depends on era. Samurai in the Edo jidai (under the Tokugawa Shogunate) were taught loyalty to the extreme. In earlier eras, not so much. Betrayal, deception, lying, cheating, stealing, none of these things were below many samurai. Yup. Not neccesarily true. This is a misconception. While there were some Samurai who trained in Shinobi-ryu, this was the exception not the rule. Get the Sengoku RPG. Even if you never use the rules, its a wealth of information. As well as anything by Stephen Turnbull and/or Karl Friday. Regarding Sengoku RPG. Get the Source book Shinobi Shadows of Nihon for some interesting ideas of the shinobi. Roughly it has some fact and some fiction but can serve as an interesting way to understand the ninja/samurai relationship. The Iga-shinobi ryu (one of the largest of the two clans, the other being Koga of the historically recorded 73 shinobi ryu of the Sengoku era) began when A chinese (possiblly korean) general named Ikai Yanban came to the Iga mountains and established a mountain Toaist temple in the 11th century and began training the mountain peasants. This group of mountain warriors later (in the 1600's) had formed to the organized trained shadow warriors that everyone thinks of. The Koga-ryu (properly pronunced Kouka) was founded by Mochizuki Saburo Kaneie. He was a wrrior who had been awarded a fief. He formed a Buddhist military order. The Koga clan developed a more politically influential existence and in fact had Iga-shinobi ryu to help with improving their martial skills. The Koga eventually backed the samurai in the Ashikaga civil war which led to the Iga/Koga hatred nad eventually to both clans demise. While some people might believe that Samurai were Shinobi and/or visa-versa, the Samurai were a very different class of people and most would not "denegrate" themselves and stoop to the "honorless" tactics of the Shinobi. This being said it is not a hard and fast rule, in fact historical records are so sparce or non existant that it is impossible to say definitively that it never happened but it is highly unlikely based on the culture and way of life of both the samurai and the shinobi. The Shinobi clan's way of life, outlook on the class structure, training, philosophy, and beliefs were just so different than the samurai, not to mention the closed and secretive nature of the families that made up the Shinobi-Ryu. I'm sure this will light a fire storm of dissagreement posts but don't believe the hype that this sterotype was the norm. it just doesn't make sense. That being said, it's your game so you can play it that way if you want to. (edited to clarify my goof as pointed out by Heretic888 regarding myth of the origins of Shinobi. I was relating it to a afore mention reference to Sengoku RPG but failed to mention that as the source)
Rogue Elendae 04-19-07, 12:23 AM	Well, according to some of the things I've read, a large part of the Japanese superiority complex supposedly stems from their belief that they are all children of the kami--the spirits (not quite gods, but close to it; some were ancestor spirits, some nature, etc.). The Emperor was highest, because he was descended from Amaterasu (the sun goddess, and daughter of Izanagi and Izanami, as I recall, the deities who birthed the Japanese islands), but all Japanese people are said to be descended from the kami, and therefore see themselves as superior to people who are not. Mind you, this stems from what I know of history and myth, so take it with a grain of salt. However, this belief in the blessings of the kami is where the term "kamikaze" came from: the Japanese were fighting against the mainlanders (Chinese? Korean? I'm not quite sure which) who were intending to attack by ship. A storm rose up, swamping many of the ships before they reached the inlet, which was assumed to be divine intervention--kamikaze: "divine wind." As for the concept of samurai as the only ones with family names, while the lower classes only had a personal name, that was true up until about the Meiji Restoration. Initially, service to the Emperor or--I believe--other nobles (Shogun, etc.) could earn someone a family name and land, etc. (as my grandmother once admitted, one of the clans in our family earned their surname simply by being the Imperial tax collectors). Further, children often had names that were only intended to last until they came of age (often, boys were named in order of birth: Ichiro/Hiro for firstborn, Jiro for second, Sanjuro or similar for third, etc., for example), and would later be given an adult name, which can often be differentiated by the different endings. As far as piety goes, one thing to recall is that much of Japan practiced Shinto, which isn't really a delineated religion so much as a collection of beliefs and rituals, that's terribly inclusive (many modern Japanese practice Shinto and Buddhism, for example, borrowing practices of both. In fact, nearly all weddings are Shinto ceremonies, while funerals are typically the prerogative of the Buddhist faith). So that can make it hard to be certain, in some respects, how pious a person is. As for combat/warfare, what are you looking for? I know that the arms and armament were different; Japanese armor was largely leather and wood, with only the helmet of samurai armor being metal, due to their being an island nation; metal rusted, and was rare enough that it wasn't wasted on full armor. Also, the ore used to produce steel was poor, hence the folding of sword-steel; to a point, it helped remove impurities, but it could make the steel too brittle. Further, there was a reason for the single edge of a katana and its curved form, but I don't remember the details. I do recall that the edge of the katana was made to be harder than the steel of the inside curve, but I don't recall the reasons why. Also, Japanese fighters were initially mounted archers, according to what I've seen; the sword only evolved after contact with mainland Asians. Again, however, take everything I've said with a grain of salt; most of this comes from talking with my weapon-loving BF, and watching things on the History Channel about samurai, which has a pretty odd slant on it. Oh, and yes, all Ninja were in fact Samurai, but not all Samurai were Ninja. This is mostly because the code of Bushido as people would like to think of it (as being like the misconceived noble views on the Chivalric code) didn't really exist. Especially not in the feudal Sengoku Jidai. Most of it came around the Meiji Revolution, or perhaps the end of the Tokugawa Regime, according to what I've heard. Anyway, as I've said repeatedly, take this with a grain of salt; I'm a mythology buff before I'm a history buff, so most of this is probably inaccurate and littered with idealizes or false views that have been perpetuated for goodness knows how long.
Roxlimn 04-19-07, 03:50 AM	Re: Chinese literacy Literacy had always been highly prized in Chinese culture, particularly because it allowed you to maneuver and get accepted into the powerful civilian bureaucracy. This was especially true for Imperial periods. Most Chinese learned enough writing and scripts to get by. The Chinese standard for "literacy" is knowing the meaning of 5000 different characters. Sounds like a lot, but if you had to rattle off every English word you knew, you'd likely exceed that. Most people knew between 1000-2500 characters, so they're not totally hopeless when it came to reading and writing. They needed that much to communicate between different provinces, since they didn't all speak the same language, and writing things down was often the only way you could make yourself understood across a language barrier. Most everyone knew how to write common words like "man," "woman," "eat," child," drink," and "eat," but if you're going to get into esoteric meanings like "concurrently," then you won't have much luck there. 5000 characters was considered the absolute minimum you would need to read contemporary Chinese prints like newspapers, novels, manuals, records, and so on. Many scholars knew 10000 characters or more. If you had to ask, I'd say that Chinese warfare varied from Japanese warfare in that Chinese warfare was profoundly influenced by the power of the crossbow and their ability to levy rather large numbers of troops. It's not a hard and fast rule. Small states in the Age of Fragmentation weren't all that wealthy and had to resort to other means of warfare, and some kingdoms strongly preferred the use of strong cavalry when it could, even going so far as to field an all-cavalry force.
heretic888 04-19-07, 01:03 PM	Not neccesarily true. This is a misconception. While there were some Samurai who trained in Shinobi-ryu, this was the exception not the rule. The Iga-shinobi ryu (one of the largest of the two clans, the other being Koga of the historically recorded 73 shinobi ryu of the Sengoku era) began when A chinese (possiblly korean) general named Ikai Yanban came to the Iga mountains and established a mountain Toaist temple in the 11th century and began training the mountain peasants. This group of mountain warriors later (in the 1600's) had formed to the organized trained shadow warriors that everyone thinks of. The Koga-ryu (properly pronunced Kouka) was founded by Mochizuki Saburo Kaneie. He was a wrrior who had been awarded a fief. He formed a Buddhist military order. The Koga clan developed a more politically influential existence and in fact had Iga-shinobi ryu to help with improving their martial skills. The Koga eventually backed the samurai in the Ashikaga civil war which led to the Iga/Koga hatred nad eventually to both clans demise. While some people might believe that Samurai were Shinobi and/or visa-versa, the Samurai were a very different class of people and most would not "denegrate" themselves and stoop to the "honorless" tactics of the Shinobi. This being said it is not a hard and fast rule, in fact historical records are so sparce or non existant that it is impossible to say definitively that it never happened but it is highly unlikely based on the culture and way of life of both the samurai and the shinobi. The Shinobi clan's way of life, outlook on the class structure, training, philosophy, and beliefs were just so different than the samurai, not to mention the closed and secretive nature of the families that made up the Shinobi-Ryu. I'm sure this will light a fire storm of dissagreement posts but don't believe the hype that this sterotype was the norm. it just doesn't make sense. That being said, it's your game so you can play it that way if you want to. Swordsage_Master, With all due respect, virtually everything in your post is completely wrong. The stories about Mochizuki Saburo and Ikai are legends, these people probably never existed. Furthermore, you are getting the legends themselves wrong (Ikai, for example, never started a "Taoist temple"). I would suggest trying to read up on the actual history of Iga Province and the Koga district of Omi Province. The truth is actually more interesting than the stories you've presented. Sorry.
Matthew_ 04-19-07, 03:28 PM	When considering the 'Japanese superiority complex', don't forget that they weren't (aren't?) alone in this mode of thinking. Greeks, Romans, Franks and many other 'groupings' considered themselves to be superior to other 'Races' (though obviously there is a certain degree of transability). It's really no different from the position of many other cultures and the root causes are the same. We = Good, They = Bad.
Swordsage_Master 04-19-07, 10:30 PM	Swordsage_Master, With all due respect, virtually everything in your post is completely wrong. The stories about Mochizuki Saburo and Ikai are legends, these people probably never existed. Furthermore, you are getting the legends themselves wrong (Ikai, for example, never started a "Taoist temple"). I would suggest trying to read up on the actual history of Iga Province and the Koga district of Omi Province. The truth is actually more interesting than the stories you've presented. Sorry. Heretic, My apologies. I knew you'd step in to correct or point out my mistake. My answer to the Iga/Koga history was not ment to be construed as fact. I failed to get the quote posted that refered to the Sengoku RPG and my elaboration on it for source material. I have since went back and added it and clarified my intentions as a possible source for the Ninja/Samurai relationship as pointed out in the Shinobi Sourcebook. I have read the history from many sources and I have a pretty good library of books on the Ninja, both factual and fictional. Although I am probablly not as astute as you it is a subject I am deeply interested in and have been most of my life. As you know filtering the minutia of fact and fiction is difficult but my post was not meant to be taken as historical fact. I did mention that due to the sparce or nonexistent historical record it is impossibe to be accurate regarding the "Most ninja were actually samurai" question. My intent was to provide the idea that the Shinobi clans and the Ninja that existed were very different from the ruling class and the samurai. The came from peasants and farmers. I know that factually speaking I have read that several samurai families had samurai that were trained by the Shinobi clans in the 1400-1600's. I still maintain that most were not samurai however, but were hired by samurai and dimyo to do what the samurai wouldn't or couldn't do. But the fact that I did not properly put my quote or what I was referencing is my fault and I do apologize if any were offended or misled.
heretic888 04-19-07, 11:45 PM	Heretic, My apologies. I knew you'd step in to correct or point out my mistake. No apology is necessary. ;) My answer to the Iga/Koga history was not ment to be construed as fact. I failed to get the quote posted that refered to the Sengoku RPG and my elaboration on it for source material. I have since went back and added it and clarified my intentions as a possible source for the Ninja/Samurai relationship as pointed out in the Shinobi Sourcebook. There's your first mistake. GRG's Sengoku RPG is a very good book on roleplaying in feudal Japan and gives some good general information about feudal Japanese history, but virtually everything it states about "shinobi" history is wrong. The primary sources for its information were books written by Stephen Hayes (including the Ninjutsu: History and Tradition book he "ghost wrote"). I have read the history from many sources and I have a pretty good library of books on the Ninja, both factual and fictional. There's your other mistake. I have found very little of historical substance from books with the words "ninja" or "ninjutsu" on their cover. You are better of looking into books about general Japanese history (such as Pierre Souryi's The World Turned Upside Down), that incidentally mention or describe the communities in Iga. My intent was to provide the idea that the Shinobi clans and the Ninja that existed were very different from the ruling class and the samurai. The came from peasants and farmers. I know that factually speaking I have read that several samurai families had samurai that were trained by the Shinobi clans in the 1400-1600's. I still maintain that most were not samurai however, but were hired by samurai and dimyo to do what the samurai wouldn't or couldn't do. Sorry, but you're still wrong. ;) The "ninja" families of Iga and Koga --- Momochi, Hattori, Fujibayashi, Mochizuki, and so on --- were samurai families. As far back as the 13th century, we see families like the Hattori having privileged positions in Iga Province, so much so that they could openly disregard the law with only a slap on the wrist as a consequence. Later on, during the Sengoku Jidai, period accounts such as the Nochi Kagami, Go Kagami, and Iranki consistently refer to the "Men of Iga" (Iga-no-mono) as samurai and "retainers". They were apparently held in high regard by both the Ashikaga and Tokugawa shogunates. Contrary to popular belief, there was no monolithic "samurai way" of looking at the world, whether you choose to call it bushido or not. Different daimyo, different han, and different ryuha had different philosophies underlying their outlooks. The shinobi's ninpo was just one variation among this spectrum. It was no less "samurai" than the outlook of Takenouchi Ryu or Kukishin Ryu. Have a good night. :D
angryman 04-20-07, 06:35 AM	I have read the history from many sources and I have a pretty good library of books on the Ninja, both factual and fictional. Although I am probablly not as astute as you it is a subject I am deeply interested in and have been most of my life. As you know filtering the minutia of fact and fiction is difficult but my post was not meant to be taken as historical fact. I have tried to find good reliable books on ninja in Tokyo and I've never found a really reliable one. I've asked a lot of people who could be considered experts of history, and they don't know a hell of a lot either. Fact is, there isn't a lot of information and a lot of it is elaboration, myth and superstition.
heretic888 04-20-07, 09:00 AM	I have tried to find good reliable books on ninja in Tokyo and I've never found a really reliable one. Try looking for ninjutsu books authored by Koyama Ryutaro, Nawa Yumio, Okuse Heichishiro, and Fujita Seiko. They are all respected researchers that have written numerous works about the historical ninja and ninjutsu. There are also Hatsumi Masaaki's publications, but he is more concerned with writing about martial arts than history per se. I've asked a lot of people who could be considered experts of history, and they don't know a hell of a lot either. Fact is, there isn't a lot of information and a lot of it is elaboration, myth and superstition. Well, the problem isn't quite so bad if you avoid the whole "ninja" question and simply look into the histories of Iga Province and Omi Province's Koga district. The people we call "ninja" are more often referred to in historical accounts as Iga-shu, Koga-gumi, Iga-no-mono, Koga-no-bushi, and so on. I don't read Japanese myself, but there are a handful of good English language publications concerning this region and its communities. Pierre Souryi's The World Turned Upside Down: Medieval Japanese Society has a rather lengthy portion on the "Iga Commune", Ikegami Eiko's The Taming of the Samurai: Honorific Individualism and the Making of Modern Japan mentions the Iga community in passing in her chapter about ikki organizations and the rise of the kokujin, and Stephen Turnbull occasionally quotes from period accounts and other ninjutsu historians in his books on the ninja (although I wouldn't trust Turnbull's perspective on the whole). Hope that helps. :)
ericSHINRA 04-20-07, 10:47 AM	When considering the 'Japanese superiority complex', don't forget that they weren't (aren't?) alone in this mode of thinking. Greeks, Romans, Franks and many other 'groupings' considered themselves to be superior to other 'Races' (though obviously there is a certain degree of transability). It's really no different from the position of many other cultures and the root causes are the same. We = Good, They = Bad. Yes, I know that. See my quote from the third post: The whole 'superiority complex' comment was there not as a racist remark towards the Japanese but to try and make sense of why they looked upon other peoples as being 'non-human'. I was simply looking for a ways to realistically roleplay how they percieved their superiority. Simple as that.
Azzy 04-20-07, 01:35 PM	Although China has always considered itself as the only Civilization, and all others barbaric by Chinese standards Except Daqin (er...Rome), which it saw, at one point, as its mirror in the west (even if everything it knew about Rome at the time was entirely second-hand). :)
Matthew_ 04-20-07, 06:06 PM	Yes, I know that. See my quote from the third post: I was simply looking for a ways to realistically roleplay how they percieved their superiority. Simple as that. Sure, the point I was making, though, is that you roleplay it pretty much the same way as you would if you were seeking to roleplay any other cultural prejudice. The 'Non Human' aspect isn't quite as literal as you are perhaps imagining. There's nothing particularly unusual about this perspective, it can be as pronounced as you think appropriate for any given Character you decide to play.
angryman 04-21-07, 03:28 AM	Try looking for ninjutsu books authored by Koyama Ryutaro, Nawa Yumio, Okuse Heichishiro, and Fujita Seiko. They are all respected researchers that have written numerous works about the historical ninja and ninjutsu. There are also Hatsumi Masaaki's publications, but he is more concerned with writing about martial arts than history per se. Well, the problem isn't quite so bad if you avoid the whole "ninja" question and simply look into the histories of Iga Province and Omi Province's Koga district. The people we call "ninja" are more often referred to in historical accounts as Iga-shu, Koga-gumi, Iga-no-mono, Koga-no-bushi, and so on. I don't read Japanese myself, but there are a handful of good English language publications concerning this region and its communities. Pierre Souryi's The World Turned Upside Down: Medieval Japanese Society has a rather lengthy portion on the "Iga Commune", Ikegami Eiko's The Taming of the Samurai: Honorific Individualism and the Making of Modern Japan mentions the Iga community in passing in her chapter about ikki organizations and the rise of the kokujin, and Stephen Turnbull occasionally quotes from period accounts and other ninjutsu historians in his books on the ninja (although I wouldn't trust Turnbull's perspective on the whole). Hope that helps. :) Actually, it does. :) I'll look into those books. Thanks.
Lord Gwydion 04-21-07, 04:06 AM	Except Daqin (er...Rome), which it saw, at one point, as its mirror in the west (even if everything it knew about Rome at the time was entirely second-hand). :) Nice catch there. Okay, revise my statement to "China has usually considered itself the only Civilization..." :bow:
Condottiere 04-21-07, 09:06 AM	The Samurai Archives is a useful online resource: http://www.samurai-archives.com/.
Azzy 04-21-07, 04:49 PM	Nice catch there. Okay, revise my statement to "China has usually considered itself the only Civilization..." :bow: Heh, it's something that I knew nothing about two months ago and only discovered while doing a bit of reading on Rome. Though I knew that there's been silk in the West since time immemorable it threw me for a loop as I used to look at different cultures as discrete entities rather than the entwined mess that they actually are.
AkumaDaimyo 04-23-07, 01:04 AM	So how hard are these more factual books on ninja to find? Are they in English? And of course Heretic shows up when Ninja are mentioned. He has "Ninja thread sense" just like SpiderMan. He's like the GI JOE of ninja. Over land sea and air, heretic is there. (To talk about ninja. :-p)
spyone 04-23-07, 03:19 AM	I'll hit a few highlights. I may be back in a few days with some reference materials (like the game Sengoku, which was well researched), but for now what follows is just my own opinion. And really, I don't know what I'm talking about. :) 1) it is my understanding that most Japanese could read. Also, china had a big thing about literacy (the philosophers who pushed for written laws did so not on the basis of "fairness", but rather that it relieved the peasants of the "burden" of having to think in order to figure out if their actions would get them punished or not), though literacy takes a lot of time to teach, moreso when the writing is pictograms and not phoenetic, so I can see there only being a few literate people in each village or something. I don't know of the lower classes in Japan having only a given name, though I imagine their "family" name might denote their lord or their home villiage rather than the name of their family. 2) Well, .... marriage was seldom about love. It was a combination business transaction and reproduction plan. Your wife was going to be part of your life for the rest of your life, but "love" wasn't really part of that equation. So, if you developed a very close bond with one of your co-workers, .... as long as you were also producing children, it wasn't really looked down upon. Not so much "valued above heterosexual love" as "who really cares what gender your mistress is"? With men, the majority were still strictly heterosexual, but even today Japan believes that a remarkably large percentage of its population is homosexual by preference. Women, on the other hand, are less free to take a lover of the opposing gender, and yet are generally assumed to be getting their sexual satisfaction from someone other than their husband. 3) I don't know, but what I've seen suggests that public nudity was sort of frowned upon. But remeber, peasants would often work wearing basicly the same outfit a sumo wrestler wears: it covers your 'nads and your asscrack, but leaves little to the imagination. However, there is also a lot of "social nudity": it is perfectly okay in certain settings to get naked in front of co-workers or even complete strangers. An example is the baths: bathing in groups is common, and while Americans in the sauna cover up for modesty, a Japanese in the feudal era most certianly would not. 4 Piety varies from person to person, but I'm pretty sure it had little to do with rank. Wealthy peopl may have had more lesiure time, and thus more time to spend going to temples, but that doens't mean the peasants didn't believe just as strongly in the spirits that were all around them. 5 DMs call. In reality, no. Sort of like the Klingons (next generation era): in theory, no Klingon would lie, use poison, etc. In practise, however, things were quite different. Same deal with samurai: in theory they are devoted to Bushido more than to their own lives, but in practise I'm sure a Chaotic samurai is possable. And, of course, if the campaign pre-dates the codification of Bushido, ... :) 6) Boy, is this one hotly debated. Among the leading theories: Yes, "Ninja" were just "Special Forces"-style samurai. No, but some Ninjas were made Samurai by grateful lords. No, there is no such thing as Ninjas, and there never has been. No, Ninjas were actually from a subculture with a completely different ethics system, derived from the teachings of a Chinese pilgrim. Again, check with your DM. 7 I dunno. Skipping this. 8. The Japanese believe (in the feudal era, at least) that all Japanese (and only the Japanese) are descended from a God. (Ameratsu, the goddess of the dawn if I recall correctly). Thus, they are better than all non-Japanese. Further, the Emperor is a direct male-line descendant, so he's even better than regular Japanese. The Japanese insist that similarities between Chinese and Japanese culture, language (written form, at least), art, or anything else are all caused by the Chinese having had contact eith Japan and copying them. The Chinese insist it is exactly the opposite. For instance, they depict dragons with a different number of toes. (I cannot recall which has more and which is which here, but ...) One says that dragons lose toes as they go further from home, and that is why the other guys depict dragons with fewer toes, while the other guys insist that dragons gain toes as they travel, so they must have originated here and go there. They both agree that Korea is a poor imitation at best, though they disagree about whom Korea is imitating. :)
ericSHINRA 05-01-07, 01:02 AM	Sorry it took me so long to reply. Everyone has been a big help, thanks!