Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ysera_the_destroyer 03-11-06, 12:04 PM	The stats for a samurai are completely different in Complete warrior than they are in oriental adventures. I just want to hear some discussion over which is better or more balanced. Personally I think the Oriental adventures version is better because, as I recall, the complete warrior one gets 2-wp fighting at higher levels. What up with that? not all samurai use two weapons, like Iajitsu masters. I'd rather not have a class feature wasted thank you very much. and samurai in oriental adventures get more non-combat skills and I think more skills in total. That, for me, is almost half the fun when playing a samurai.
teshen 03-11-06, 02:25 PM	I strongly favor the OA samurai over the Complete Warrior version. The CW one favors a very specific and mecanically boring stereotype. With the OA version, you can choose the feats that suite your character concept more easily and not be staightjacketed to the supposedly speedy two weapon approach. A crab samurai is going to look a lot different from a scorpion samurai and neither would really fit what the CW samurai does. When it really comes down to it though, I've seen some good builds that don't incorporate either and do a decent job at doing the oriental style noble warrior. I think you could emulate some of the flavor of the OA samurai now with a figher with the feat Able Learner from Races of Eberron. He could cheaply spends some ranks on some of the more courtly skills. I even saw a monk/rogue build that did a good job at getting a sword saint feel to it, someone that would be as comfortable on a battlefield as at a moonviewing. So yes. I favor Oriental adventure's samurai, even more so if you have access to some of the Rokugan books as well. However, you can make just about any character noble or interesting if you play him that way.
trolloc 03-11-06, 02:46 PM	I think of a foreign culture who came to the Orients and study them for a bit. They like the Samurai and took that system of warrior and incorporated into their culture. For example...The dwarves of Ironshield Mountain Range has been trading with the Divine Emperor far kingdoms for over 400 years. Over the time, they admired the ( OA ) Samurai skills in battle and their honor. So the dwarves intergraded that system of warrior into their society and a new military class emerged (CW Samurai). ----- As for which one i like better? the one with the iaijutsu skill and the one who has the plenthora of feats to choose. With all that, you can build your Character's fighting style to your liking.
Ranger REG 03-12-06, 03:14 AM	OA Samurai is the winner, hands down. It's generic enough to allow player to customize what combat style his PC wish to incorporate, yet different from all the other martial classes that I can accept for such an Asian-themed character. It's a lot closer to the historical archetype without being too precise. Alternatively, I'd recommend the generic Cavalier class in the Cavalier's Handbook from Green Ronin, which include suggestion on choosing weapon of choice (though the suggestive text recommend a Musashi-type character) appropriate for non-European-themed cultures. It is fitting considering that the 1st edition OA Samurai was listed as a cavalier sub-class.
MindFlaying_Menace 03-12-06, 04:25 PM	OA Alternatively, I'd recommend the generic Cavalier class in the Cavalier's Handbook from Green Ronin, which include suggestion on choosing weapon of choice (though the suggestive text recommend a Musashi-type character) appropriate for non-European-themed cultures. It is fitting considering that the 1st edition OA Samurai was listed as a cavalier sub-class. Doesn't pretty much everyone regard that class (and a lot of Green Ronin's other classes) as clearly being overpowered?
teshen 03-12-06, 07:21 PM	That's the problem when you go farther afield. Different publishing companies have different standards they are balancing things against and different systems of doing things that don't blend well with other settings/systems. Just about everything in the Green Ronin books is overpowered when judged against the WotC stuff. However, if you were to have everyone in the group use races and prcs made by green ronin, the power curve would be about even. Mongoose publishing has some fun stuff too... but it just isn't a good fit in a "standard" dnd game.
MindFlaying_Menace 03-12-06, 10:44 PM	That's the problem when you go farther afield. Different publishing companies have different standards they are balancing things against and different systems of doing things that don't blend well with other settings/systems. Just about everything in the Green Ronin books is overpowered when judged against the WotC stuff. However, if you were to have everyone in the group use races and prcs made by green ronin, the power curve would be about even. Mongoose publishing has some fun stuff too... but it just isn't a good fit in a "standard" dnd game. Well I find most of Green Ronin's stuff to be balanced acceptably. The only stuff that isn't really is their new base classes (especially in Secret College of Necromancy, what the hell were they thinking?). But most of the stuff in their other products is good, and the Mythic Vista systems are balanced well internally
babysamurai 03-13-06, 05:32 AM	Uh, yeah, I'd rather play an Expert than the "Samurai" from CW. If I use the CW Samurai, it's usually use as an NPC class and I call it something else (basically a 2-weapon honourable fighter-type). Even though I like the OA Samurai, most of the best Samurai characters I have seen don't use either class. A good one I saw was a an Aristocrat 1/Fighter 18/Monk 1.
Ranger REG 03-14-06, 04:06 AM	Doesn't pretty much everyone regard that class (and a lot of Green Ronin's other classes) as clearly being overpowered? Not me. Maybe those "everyone" want you to stick with WotC & D&D labels only. :smirk: As I said before, I'd rather use OA Samurai. If not that, then the Cavalier class in GR's book before I'll ever consider using CW version. How WotC got it right the first time, and then screw it up the second time around is beyond me.
Celerian 03-14-06, 01:03 PM	They had input from AEG the first time? :P
narukagami 03-14-06, 02:06 PM	OA Samurai for the win. Its superior in every aspect, hands down, period, fact.
nodaisho 03-14-06, 10:09 PM	agreed.
Ranger REG 03-15-06, 04:03 AM	They had input from AEG the first time? :P Nope. They had James Wyatt to do OA. I truly shudder to think that James is responsible for the CW version.
dragontiger 03-21-06, 10:44 AM	I to agree that the OA Samurai is far better then the CW Samurai.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-23-06, 05:34 AM	I use a blend of both. I ganked the staredown abilities and the fear aura from the CW samurai, taked them back on to the OA samurai. The onyl real changes I made are elimination of the sword worship aspect, and elimination of Iaijutsu focus as a skill. (Want to do a iaijutsu duel? Quickdraw and improved initiative, don't whimper at me I didn't give your samurai a broken samurai-only fighting style.) Also, I use said class to represent various noble warriors all over my world, with tweks to the bonus feat list and so forth.
Wargamer 03-23-06, 08:11 AM	Well I only have the CW version, but I cannot see what is wrong with it... Just because they can fight with two weapons doesn't mean they have to fight with two weapons. I have a Paladin running in a campaign alongside a Samurai, both armed the same way; +1 Katana and Wagizashi (Paladin has TWF). The two compliment each other well. One draws both weapons and charges, the other goes two-handed. Between them, they get a very nice combination of weight of attacks, and power. If we run into a hoard-situation, both go Two-weapon. If the enemy is a hulking great monster, it's double-Katana time! I have never seen any class as "weak" in D&D; a class is only as strong or weak as the player using it.
narukagami 03-23-06, 11:25 AM	Well I only have the CW version, but I cannot see what is wrong with it... Just because they can fight with two weapons doesn't mean they have to fight with two weapons. I have a Paladin running in a campaign alongside a Samurai, both armed the same way; +1 Katana and Wagizashi (Paladin has TWF). The two compliment each other well. One draws both weapons and charges, the other goes two-handed. Between them, they get a very nice combination of weight of attacks, and power. If we run into a hoard-situation, both go Two-weapon. If the enemy is a hulking great monster, it's double-Katana time! I have never seen any class as "weak" in D&D; a class is only as strong or weak as the player using it. You're missing the point, it isn't about mechanics, its the concept. The CW samurai is a poor excuse of a cookie cutter stereotype. The OA samurai allows you to create the samurai of your imagination, spear fighter, duelist, horsman, archer, all aspects of samurai warfare can be emulated with it. The CW samurai represents an extremely narrow and slim minority of samurai.
Celerian 03-23-06, 11:29 AM	The difference is, if you use a CW samurai and don't want to use TWF, you have a totally superfluous ability (or series of abilities). If you use an OA samurai and don't want to use TWF, you just pick the style closest to what you want to do, whether it's iaijutsu, mounted combat, or whacking things over the head with a tetsubo, and you don't have a superfluous ability (there are ways to level up some other weapon instead of or in addition to your daisho, so that's not really an issue).
heretic888 03-23-06, 02:10 PM	The onyl real changes I made are elimination of the sword worship aspect, and elimination of Iaijutsu focus as a skill. (Want to do a iaijutsu duel? Quickdraw and improved initiative, don't whimper at me I didn't give your samurai a broken samurai-only fighting style.) I'd be curious to know the reasoning behind the claim that the Iaijutsu Focus skill is either "broken" or "samurai-only". Laterz.
narukagami 03-23-06, 02:16 PM	I'd be curious to know the reasoning behind the claim that the Iaijutsu Focus skill is either "broken" or "samurai-only". Laterz. Because according to Wizards Forum 'logic', anything that allows non-casters to come even remotely close to the damage output of a caster class is apperantly "broken". :rolleyes:
Nobunaga Oda 03-23-06, 04:28 PM	Because according to Wizards Forum 'logic', anything that allows non-casters to come even remotely close to the damage output of a caster class is apperantly "broken". :rolleyes: Amen to that. I adapted the Iaijutsu focus Skill to be used by any Combat Focused class in my non-oriental campaigns...And it isnīt anymore about "drawing the sword"; it represents the perfect first attack of the fight, the ability to find a weakeness on your foe.(The action aslo works if you prepare an attack against a enemy and you anounce that you are using the skill.)
Count Arioch the 28th 03-27-06, 11:39 AM	Because according to Wizards Forum 'logic', anything that allows non-casters to come even remotely close to the damage output of a caster class is apperantly "broken". :rolleyes: Caster classes are lousy at putting out damage, actually. Their time is much better spent on battlefield control, or buffing the melee people. Most of the really broken combos I've seen usually involved combat in some way. (For example, a druid buffing up then tearing things apart, or a cleric tearing things apart post buffing, and so forth.)
heretic888 03-27-06, 04:01 PM	You still didn't answer my inquiry, Count Arioch. Caster classes are lousy at putting out damage, actually. In the Player's Handbook alone, there are spells that can dish out up to 15d6 damage in a single attack. That doesn't sound too "lousy" to me. Most of the really broken combos I've seen usually involved combat in some way. (For example, a druid buffing up then tearing things apart, or a cleric tearing things apart post buffing, and so forth.) The Cleric and Druid are both casters. Laterz.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-27-06, 07:20 PM	You missed the point, heretic. My point is that melee combat is usually the best way to deal damage. Anything that boosts melee combat also boosts the others. Edit: And 15d6 is lousy. Why would I do 15d6 damage to something that's probably going to save, or be resistant or immune to the spell, when I could cast a different spell and completely eliminate said beings ability to do anything, then have the fighters hack it to bits when it's defenseless? If you are playing spellcasters in terms of d6's, then you are neutering yourself.
heretic888 03-27-06, 07:46 PM	You missed the point, heretic. My point is that melee combat is usually the best way to deal damage. If you're a Cleric or Druid, that is. Again, both casters. Edit: And 15d6 is lousy. Why would I do 15d6 damage to something that's probably going to save, or be resistant or immune to the spell, when I could cast a different spell and completely eliminate said beings ability to do anything, then have the fighters hack it to bits when it's defenseless? If you are playing spellcasters in terms of d6's, then you are neutering yourself. I agree completely, I was simply giving the aforementioned as an example in terms of comparing sheer numbers (it's hard to compare the numerical value of 'save or die' vs 'xd6 + y'). That being said, if you truly do find 15d6 damage to be "lousy", I find the postulation that Iaijutsu Focus is "broken" to be even more ludicrous. Pre-epic Iaijutsu Focus, at most, will dish out +9d6 damage* --- assuming you can get a 50 or so on your Iaijutsu Focus check. And, using the material in the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, and Oriental Adventures, you are pretty much only getting to get in an iaijutsu strike once per confrontation. So, then, I would be interested in understanding how "Iaijutsu Focus is broken and samurai-only" and "15d6 is lousy damage" are, in fact, not contradictory statements. * Barring the Iaijutsu Master prestige class, that is. Laterz.
heretic888 03-27-06, 07:56 PM	I adapted the Iaijutsu focus Skill to be used by any Combat Focused class in my non-oriental campaigns...And it isnīt anymore about "drawing the sword"; it represents the perfect first attack of the fight, the ability to find a weakeness on your foe. Wow, I can't believe I missed this one. :P If you look toward the back of your Oriental Adventures book, you will see that the character sheet lists Iaijutsu Focus as one of the skills that you do not need ranks in to attempt a skill check. Furthermore, Iaijutsu Focus does not have the now archaic "exclusive" label and, as such, any character from any class can take ranks in it (just as a cross-class skill, excluding Samurai and Sohei). Additionally, the mechanical description in the book itself never limits the Iaijutsu Focus skill to the drawing of swords only. It specifically states the skill can be used at any time you draw a weapon (regardless of what the weapon is) while your opponent is flat-footed. Period. Just a few minor points of clarification. ;) Laterz.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-27-06, 08:57 PM	If you look toward the back of your Oriental Adventures book, you will see that the character sheet lists Iaijutsu Focus as one of the skills that you do not need ranks in to attempt a skill check. Furthermore, Iaijutsu Focus does not have the now archaic "exclusive" label and, as such, any character from any class can take ranks in it (just as a cross-class skill, excluding Samurai and Sohei). Oh, well I'll be danged. I was thinking it was trained only, and samruai/sohei only. (I didn't mention sohei with my original generaliztion because no one wants to play a sohei.) I retract my samurai-only comment. But I still think a skill that lets you deal potentially +9d6 damage is too powerful, because it is too good for a skill. The wizard dealing 15d6 damage spent 15 class levels to be able to do that. The samurai merely spent skill points. skills should never be that good. That being said, if we gave the samurai simply a class feature that let him deal extra damage when striking on the same round as he drew his weapon (Capping at +9d6 at level 20), I would not object to it. Also, IF being untrained and not class specific breaks it even more. A cleric with Sadism running that recently cast Flamestrike on a cage full of rats right before a battle could easily get +50 to his check untrained and deal the +9d6 damage without even having to be a samurai. I see my mistakes in my original posting, and I thank you all for the corrections. The corrections might have only galvanized my previous opinions, but I am grateful that you guys set me straight.
Kalis Atrud 03-27-06, 09:42 PM	It always goes back to the bags or cages of rats on these forums, doesn't it?
Ranger REG 03-28-06, 02:34 AM	Wow, I can't believe I missed this one. :P If you look toward the back of your Oriental Adventures book, you will see that the character sheet lists Iaijutsu Focus as one of the skills that you do not need ranks in to attempt a skill check. Furthermore, Iaijutsu Focus does not have the now archaic "exclusive" label and, as such, any character from any class can take ranks in it (just as a cross-class skill, excluding Samurai and Sohei). Additionally, the mechanical description in the book itself never limits the Iaijutsu Focus skill to the drawing of swords only. It specifically states the skill can be used at any time you draw a weapon (regardless of what the weapon is) while your opponent is flat-footed. Period. Just a few minor points of clarification. ;) Laterz. Hmm. I clearly recalled having brought up that little flaw that would allow anyone to make an initiative check using IF with their Charisma modifier. But everyone dismissed me, stating it was for duel use only. RTFM!!! (Not you, heretic888 ... the "Others" :shifty: ) :smirk:
narukagami 03-28-06, 02:27 PM	Because unless there is a feat or something I'm forgetting, you can't. It only applies in Iaijutsu duels. You RTFM.... :rolleyes:
heretic888 03-28-06, 03:10 PM	If you're going by what the Oriental Adventures book actually says.... The damage bonus from an Iaijutsu Focus check is gained at any time you draw a melee weapon and successfully attack a flat-footed opponent or when you attack an inanimate object after one round of preparation (i.e., no interruptions). The initiative check from the Iaijutsu Focus skill can be done during iaijutsu duels only. I hope that settles things. Laterz.
Kalis Atrud 03-28-06, 03:14 PM	Hmm. I clearly recalled having brought up that little flaw that would allow anyone to make an initiative check using IF with their Charisma modifier. But everyone dismissed me, stating it was for duel use only. RTFM!!! (Not you, heretic888 ... the "Others" :shifty: ) :smirk: That's because it only replaces your initiative check in an iaijutsu duel. In normal combat, you have to win initiative with your normal initiative modifiers(dex, improved init., Lightning Blade if you have it) then when you land the strike you roll your iaijutsu focus skill check. Again: Iaijustsu Focus only modifies initiative in a iaijutsu duel. In normal combat it is only used for damage. Which is what was said in the other topic.
Ranger REG 03-29-06, 04:45 AM	I hope that settles things. Yeah, I conceded ... to you.
Cynic_Devine 03-29-06, 09:15 PM	Iaijutsu draw by itself is not broke IMHO. It is basically another form of the sneak attack. The problem comes in when you add things to it, particularly the Iaijutsu master & the rogue. The iaijutsu master gets to add his/her Cha. mod. to each & every extra die of damage. So getting an extra 9d6+45 dmg. is well within the realm of possiblity. Getting higher is not that hard to imagine either. In the hands of the rogue it becomes even more sneak attack damage effectively & insane numbers can come out of it as well. Those are the issues I have with it personally.
Ranger REG 03-30-06, 08:36 PM	Iaijutsu draw by itself is not broke IMHO. It is basically another form of the sneak attack. The problem comes in when you add things to it, particularly the Iaijutsu master & the rogue. The iaijutsu master gets to add his/her Cha. mod. to each & every extra die of damage. So getting an extra 9d6+45 dmg. is well within the realm of possiblity. Getting higher is not that hard to imagine either. Well, that assume you have at least a Charisma bonus of +5. In the hands of the rogue it becomes even more sneak attack damage effectively & insane numbers can come out of it as well. So, what did you do to fix it? Don't stack them?
Knight_of_spades 03-31-06, 04:04 AM	OA's version is more flavorfull and fun than the dull CW version. But my favorite version of Samurai is.. Lawfull fighter. :dancin:
Priest_of_Shaundakul 03-31-06, 07:10 AM	I like the CW version, it's great.
narukagami 03-31-06, 07:44 AM	I like the CW version, it's great. You probably don't know much about samurai then. To each his own....
Priest_of_Shaundakul 03-31-06, 07:52 AM	I rarely make assumptions about other posters. To each his own.... That's quite correct.
Knight_of_spades 03-31-06, 08:07 AM	Well the CW version is closer to real life than the magical OA version. If its real samurai you want then CW is the best choice, but if you want a flavorfull samurai class in a magical world OA all the way.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-31-06, 10:17 AM	Well the CW version is closer to real life than the magical OA version. If its real samurai you want then CW is the best choice, but if you want a flavorfull samurai class in a magical world OA all the way. Um, the OA samurai wasn't magical at all. The ability to empower their katana is in the end no different than the gai-jen fighter buying a better bastard sword, it lets the samurai not suck with his weapon while still retaining the out of place sword worship. If you want to talk "RL" samurai, then you'd probably think either the fighter, the ranger (ranged specialist) the aristocrat NPC class, or a mixture of the three to be most historically accurate. From my understanding, two weapon fighting was a bit of a rarity amongst samurai, they were primarily archers, and later in their history, beaurocrats.
Knight_of_spades 03-31-06, 10:37 AM	The samurai in OA can also add magical effect to his blade like thundering. Not just stat bonus.
narukagami 03-31-06, 11:23 AM	From my understanding, two weapon fighting was a bit of a rarity amongst samurai, they were primarily archers, and later in their history, beaurocrats. Not just a bit of a rarity, it was exceedingly rare. The CW samurai is probably the furthest representation of "Real Life" samurai that you can get. Magic or no. If you wanna talk RL samurai, the Count has got it. A Sengoku-jidai samurai is probably best represented by a Ranger with some flavor tweaking, archery combat style, mounted archery feats, and a horse. Edo-jidai, Aristocrat, as during that era, dispite popular belief, samurai really didn't do much but sit around and write about how awesome they are. (a blanket statement, I know...) Not sure about eras before Sengoku, like Heian or Kamakura, as far as I can tell they were pretty Edo-ish too with alot of Sengoku-like exceptions.
narukagami 03-31-06, 12:49 PM	Well the CW version is closer to real life than the magical OA version. If its real samurai you want then CW is the best choice, but if you want a flavorfull samurai class in a magical world OA all the way. Quite the opposite actually, magic or no the OA samurai is very very close to the ideal Edo-jidai samurai. And I hardly count imbuing the weapon as something to make the class totally "magical", if anything its a counterbalance to the fact every class ever is going to be finding and buying new equipment, while the OA samurai is stuck with the same set of swords for his entire life. Again, the CW samurai is, by far, one of the worst representations of anything samurai that I've seen so far. If its a "real" samurai you want then you want to avoid the CW version like a plauge. The only thing in history that even remotely comes close to being capable of being properly represented by the CW samurai is Miyamoto Musashi, and that is only one, single, one-of-a-kind person. Again, magic or no, the OA samurai is a much closer representation of Real Life samurai than the CW one will ever be.
Knight_of_spades 03-31-06, 01:42 PM	Magic-thunder-sword!
narukagami 03-31-06, 01:43 PM	Magic-thunder-sword! Troll!
Kalis Atrud 03-31-06, 02:46 PM	Magic-thunder-sword! Yeah, like when Shishio drags his katana along the ground to ignite it. The thing is in the d20 system, for weapon to be special at all, it needs to be magical. The OA Samurai is as close as a character in D&D can get to the character being the cause of the weapon being special and not the other way around. Think about it. The OA samurai's deep connection to the blade allows him to unlock new abilities with that sword as he learns more and progresses in technique. In the hands of anybody else it is just a masterwork bastard sword, in the Samurai's hand it is sheathed in flame, or cold. It can lop off heads, be supernaturally sharp, cause a displacement effect, blur so the enemy is flatfooted to his strikes, be a blade of light that ignores armor or smite the dishonorable.
heretic888 03-31-06, 04:04 PM	The only thing in history that even remotely comes close to being capable of being properly represented by the CW samurai is Miyamoto Musashi, and that is only one, single, one-of-a-kind person. Even then, not really. Miyamoto Musashi was a wandering ronin duelist of the Edo Jidai. He was not constrained by the CW Samurai's code of conduct (Musashi quite preferred the use of deception and surprise attacks, actually). He would have not have donned heavy armor; in fact, it is highly likely he donned no armor at all. Furthermore, the style of the Niten Ryu does employ two swords, but it is based around the idea of utilizing one for offense and one for defense. Feats like TWF, ITWF, and GTWF would be completely inappropriate for a Musashi character (although TWD would fit). So, the CW Samurai doesn't even do Musashi justice. In fact, it really isn't reminiscent of anything at all in Japanese history or legend.... Again, magic or no, the OA samurai is a much closer representation of Real Life samurai than the CW one will ever be. Truthery!! :cheer: Laterz.
narukagami 03-31-06, 04:08 PM	Even then, not really. Miyamoto Musashi was a wandering ronin duelist of the Edo Jidai. He was not constrained by the CW Samurai's code of conduct (Musashi quite preferred the use of deception and surprise attacks, actually). He would have not have donned heavy armor; in fact, it is highly likely he donned no armor at all. Furthermore, the style of the Niten Ryu does employ two swords, but it is based around the idea of utilizing one for offense and one for defense. Feats like TWF, ITWF, and GTWF would be completely inappropriate for a Musashi character (although TWD would fit). So, the CW Samurai doesn't even do Musashi justice. In fact, it really isn't reminiscent of anything at all in Japanese history or legend.... See? I was even stretching it there just to find something that the CW samurai could possibly represent, and even then it doesn't fit! Truthery!! :cheer: Indeed. :P
Hochiu 03-31-06, 04:48 PM	Truthery? :whatsthis
Knight_of_spades 03-31-06, 10:35 PM	Troll! You read manga! :pbbbtt: Think about it. The OA samurai's deep connection to the blade allows him to unlock new abilities with that sword as he learns more and progresses in technique. In the hands of anybody else it is just a masterwork bastard sword, in the Samurai's hand it is sheathed in flame, or cold. It can lop off heads, be supernaturally sharp, cause a displacement effect, blur so the enemy is flatfooted to his strikes, be a blade of light that ignores armor or smite the dishonorable. But this is magical powers. And had no place in the real feudal Japan. Yeah, like when Shishio drags his katana along the ground to ignite it. Who is this? The OA Samurai is as close as a character in D&D can get to the character being the cause of the weapon being special and not the other way around. I agree. The thing is in the d20 system, for weapon to be special at all, it needs to be magical. I double agree. I have said from the beginning that the best realistic samurai is a fighter, the most flavourfull dnd samurai is the OA version. I'm not a troll, I just belive that Samurai was normal human beings with some special skills thats all. At the end of the day a samura class who fought with two swords using a different sword techniqe than the real samurai is more realistic than the magical samurai even though the magical samurai use only one sword.
Priest_of_Shaundakul 03-31-06, 10:50 PM	:cheer:
narukagami 03-31-06, 10:53 PM	You read manga! :pbbbtt: You're Trolling right here, how can you claim you're not? Again, even with the magic, its still far closer to a historical archtype than the CW version, which is complete and utter nonsense.
Priest_of_Shaundakul 03-31-06, 11:02 PM	which is complete and utter nonsense. Facts and research work better than emotions and biased preferences.
narukagami 03-31-06, 11:12 PM	Facts and research work better than emotions and biased preferences. And the facts and research prove its nonsense, so whats your point?
Priest_of_Shaundakul 03-31-06, 11:57 PM	It is not nonsense. Simply because the book it was placed in does not solely revolve around the Orient, does not make it an underpowered and bland class.
narukagami 04-01-06, 12:17 AM	It is not nonsense. Simply because the book it was placed in does not solely revolve around the Orient, does not make it an underpowered and bland class. The issue is, however, "as a Fantasy Japan Samurai, of any Era, how do each measure up?" The CW samurai fails in nearly all aspects. It represents nothing found in any Japanese tale, history, or legend. CW not revolving around the orient has nothing to do with the issue. The issue at hand is which is a better representation of samurai. Its level of power is not an issue, I think only one other person in this whole thread brought it up, as "not being underpowered" is the only defense most can conjure for it, other than this "magic sword" copout, as if Kiai smite is any less a form of magical sillyness. Besides, the CW samurai will be using just as crazy magical swords too, in a "standard" magic-leveled game, he just won't be praying to his ancestors to make them so. :rolleyes: As a samurai, the CW one fails, as some sort of war minded, dual sword weilding class, it has its potential. But regardless of the class's good points, none of them are any kind of feasable defense in an argument of "which better represents a samurai".
Ranger REG 04-01-06, 01:22 AM	Well the CW version is closer to real life than the magical OA version. Yeah, if every samurai ever existed are Miyamoto Musashi clones. :rolleye2: Maybe we should also go back to having just one kind of ranger, the two-weapon fighting type. :P
Knight_of_spades 04-01-06, 02:22 AM	You're Trolling right here, how can you claim you're not? So you accusing me of trolling means that I have to prove that I am not? Accusing someone of trolling without grounds is trolling Again, even with the magic, its still far closer to a historical archtype than the CW version, which is complete and utter nonsense. You are wrong. Technique is technique magic is magic. I believe that magic is more distant from reality than warriors wielding two swords, that’s neither trolling nor nonsense. Yeah, if every samurai ever existed are Miyamoto Musashi clones. :rolleye2: Well would it be magical clones? :P
heretic888 04-01-06, 09:35 AM	You are wrong. Technique is technique magic is magic. I believe that magic is more distant from reality than warriors wielding two swords, that’s neither trolling nor nonsense. There is historical realism and there is cultural authenticity. Two very different animals, I'm afraid. Narukagami is right. The OA Samurai is closer to the archetypal samurai of the Heian and Edo periods than the CW Samurai. Everything about the CW Samurai --- from the silly code of conduct to the Kiai Smite to the two-weapon-fighting-in-heavy-armor to the Frightful Presence --- absolute reeks of Western romanticism. It doesn't even vaguely resemble the buke as they are presented in Japanese culture. Furthermore, it could easily be argued that the CW Samurai's Ki Smite and Frightful Presence abilities are just as "magical" as the OA Samura's Ancestral Daisho. Nothing about the aforementioned abilities strikes me as being about "technique". In any event, the "magic" of the Ancestral Daisho matters very little in the larger picture. In most standard D&D campaigns, all the melee characters are going to be decked out in magical weapons anyway. The only difference between the OA Samurai's ancestral daisho and the CW Samurai's magical weapons is that the "magic" is acquired from different sources. Outside of that, they are pretty much the same. Laterz.
Count Arioch the 28th 04-01-06, 09:39 AM	You read manga! :pbbbtt: But this is magical powers. And had no place in the real feudal Japan. Just like the +5 vorpal sword had no place in real feudal europe. you're not making any points here. If you are talking about a "Historically accurate" game, then I would argue you go one farther, and not use D&D at all. D&D asumes that the players will have a certain amount of magic with them.
Knight_of_spades 04-01-06, 11:07 AM	Just like the +5 vorpal sword had no place in real feudal europe. you're not making any points here. Well if I made a feudal europe d20 setting (Plauge and penace?) +5 vorpal swords are right out. That was the point. If you are talking about a "Historically accurate" game, then I would argue you go one farther, and not use D&D at all. D&D asumes that the players will have a certain amount of magic with them. I agree, but dnd can be used without magic. It will be a very different campain though.
Count Arioch the 28th 04-02-06, 12:06 PM	Different to the point that it wouldn't be D&D anymore. the game is designed so that everyone has a certain amount of magic items by certain levels. If you take that out, you need to rebalance the entier game to the point it's not even D&D anymore.
heretic888 04-03-06, 09:58 AM	If you are talking about a "Historically accurate" game, then I would argue you go one farther, and not use D&D at all. D&D asumes that the players will have a certain amount of magic with them. I always find it bizarre when people assume that we're all bent up about historical accuracy here. It truly is odd. If I may speak for some of the others here, I think most of the regulars here on the Oriental Adventures forum are more concerned with cultural authenticity than anything else. As I stated earlier, they are two entirely different animals. The issue is not that every detail of the game fit the historical record to the letter, nor that the rules of the game conform to all the known laws of physics. Not at all. The issue, from where I'm standing anyway, is that the game actually be true and faithful to the cultural archetypes from which these ideas are derived. The issue is that classes like the CW Samurai and CV Ninja amount to little more than Westernized caricatures of the Eastern mythos, rather than trying to honestly represent these cultural archetypes in a vibrant fantasy context. To use a somewhat modern analogy, using the CW Samurai to represent the Japanese samurai mythos would be like using a Suicide Bomber class to represent the Arabic warrior mythos. Laterz.
Nomad16 04-17-06, 03:45 AM	The issue is that classes like the CW Samurai and CV Ninja amount to little more than Westernized caricatures of the Eastern mythos, rather than trying to honestly represent these cultural archetypes in a vibrant fantasy context. Without a doubt From the rather brief reading of the CW Samurai that i gave it before discarding the class as a waste, was that it was right in line with the general romantic western version of the actual samurai. Its a FTR with some crap skills thrown on and labeled a samurai. From my Sengoku studies the OA version is a much better representation of the actual samurai of history, and can be played to emulate virtually any historically accurate fighting style employed by samurai. Unfortuatly OA didnt give us stats or rules for a Yari, so that style is kinda out...think they tell you to use a lance instead :mad:
Ranger REG 04-17-06, 03:57 AM	Unfortuatly OA didnt give us stats or rules for a Yari, so that style is kinda out...think they tell you to use a lance instead :mad: See OA, page 203, Table 10-2: Weapon Names. Of course anyone knows that yari comes in different length, including longspear.
Count Arioch the 28th 04-18-06, 07:58 PM	I always find it bizarre when people assume that we're all bent up about historical accuracy here. It truly is odd. Have you been paying attention? I was arguing with a guy that was faltly insisting that everything was historically innacurate, then I told him to not play D&D. If you bothered to pay attention, you'd see that I was on YOUR side. but nooooo, since I'm not one of the elite on these boards, you all give me hell every time I post somthing here.
Hochiu 04-18-06, 08:29 PM	Children, don't make me turn this car around and go back home.
Celerian 04-19-06, 10:44 AM	Count, just because he quoted you, it doesn't necessarily follow that his statement was directed at you. So chill out.
babysamurai 04-19-06, 11:57 AM	Well, the thing is; your PC doesn't have to belong to a class called Samurai to be considered a "Samurai". Even in OA it states that many members of the Unicorn clan belong to the Barbarian class, but are considered "Samurai", and many Crab clan members belong to the Ranger class, but are considerd "Samurai". The CW Samurai is just a TWF specialist...and not a very good one. If I was to make a "Samurai", I would go for an Aristocrat 1/Fighter 18/Monk 1 - but that's just me. See, everyone has their own idea on what a "Samurai" should be mechanically within the D&D rules. ...It's a social status...
Ranger REG 04-19-06, 04:33 PM	...It's a social status... I think the appropriate term is buke, or warrior caste. :teach:
babysamurai 04-20-06, 05:30 AM	I think the appropriate term is buke, or warrior caste. :teach: If you're going to teach, you should have the correct information. The Samurai were more than a Warrior caste...you're probably thinking of Bushi. I wiil go home tonight and find the correct term for the caste you're trying to think of - I know it begins with a "K". ...I think it's Kuge.
Ranger REG 04-21-06, 04:33 AM	...I think it's Kuge. Kuge is the upper caste, consists of court nobles and the Imperial family themselves. Bushi is warrior, or the militant member of the Buke caste.
babysamurai 04-21-06, 05:08 AM	Kuge is the upper caste, consists of court nobles and the Imperial family themselves. Bushi is warrior, or the militant member of the Buke caste. How are the things in the islands right now (Oahu)? I myself live in Makawao (Maui) for 6 years...I want to go back.
fendrin 04-21-06, 02:53 PM	Back to the inital topic... I personally think that the CW Samurai is fine, if they are given the combat style options like a ranger. I would add on another style though, focusing on the more traditional 2-hand kenjutsu. Maybe something along the lines of Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Power Critical. Honestly, I think that the reason that the CW Samurai was created was because OA Samurai is too much like a standard Fighter to have put in CW, and they seem to have decided to update/recreate/slaughter oriental classes in the complete series. The completes also 'stole' MANY feats and PRCs from OA. I actually think that the CW Kensai (speaking of sword saints) does a decent job of representing the Samurai, albeit with eastern connotations removed (other than the name). Oh, and btw, my thoughts on samurai are based off of eastern romanticized motions, as garnered from books like the Heike story and movies such as those by Akira Kurosowa.
heretic888 04-21-06, 04:15 PM	Honestly, I think that the reason that the CW Samurai was created was because OA Samurai is too much like a standard Fighter to have put in CW.... No, the CW Samurai was created because the author chose to make a class based on comic books and cartoons readily available in the United States instead of actual Eastern mythos. Laterz.
narukagami 04-22-06, 02:40 AM	No, the CW Samurai was created because the author chose to make a class based on comic books and cartoons readily available in the United States instead of actual Eastern mythos. Laterz. I'd actually have to disagree, I can't find one, single bellowing, heavy armor wearing, dual-sword weilding, ki smiting anime or manga samurai anywhere. Which would indicate that pile of garbage they call a "samurai" (IMHO, here comes the flames anyway.) was either pulled entirely out of Wizard's ass, or a mishmash of bits and pieces taken from said sources.
Ranger REG 04-23-06, 03:45 AM	I'd actually have to disagree, I can't find one, single bellowing, heavy armor wearing, dual-sword weilding, ki smiting anime or manga samurai anywhere. Which would indicate that pile of garbage they call a "samurai" (IMHO, here comes the flames anyway.) was either pulled entirely out of Wizard's ass, or a mishmash of bits and pieces taken from said sources. Zolo the Pirate Hunter and his weird three-sword style in One Piece. Usagi Yojimbo from the TNMT franchise. (Falls under "comic book.")
Kalis Atrud 04-23-06, 06:01 PM	Zolo the Pirate Hunter and his weird three-sword style in One Piece. Usagi Yojimbo from the TNMT franchise. (Falls under "comic book.") Neither of them routinely wear heavy armor. And Usagi is basically a rabbit Musashi. His name is actually Miyamoto Usagi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usagi_Yojimbo
Ranger REG 04-26-06, 05:12 PM	Do they all have to be heavy-armor-wearing dudes??? I think it was based on some idiotic feedback on "Why can't Samurai wear their great armor (o-yoroi) at 1st level"? (No doubt the question was posed by a non-Asian.) :rolleye2: OBTW, Usagi Yojimbo is the title of the comic book featuring Miyamoto Usagi. *tongue clicks twice* :smirk:
Ranger REG 04-26-06, 05:20 PM	How are the things in the islands right now (Oahu)? Let's see. We jailed LOST star Michelle Rodriguez to begin her 4-day sentence for her DUI conviction. Ala Wai Canal is unswimmable. And I'm watching a new Taiga Drama series on KIKU-TV based on a samurai couple whose dream is to become lord and lady of a castle, in the Nobunaga period. We resume to our regularly scheduled discussion in progress...
yukisanada 04-26-06, 06:14 PM	In my opinion after reviewing both groups I must say unbiasedly that the OA samurai just offers more flexibility and in my own experience is just more fun to play than the CW samurai.
fendrin 04-26-06, 10:06 PM	Zolo the Pirate Hunter and his weird three-sword style in One Piece. Usagi Yojimbo from the TNMT franchise. (Falls under "comic book.") Two is not a pattern. I can think of several western movies that show 2h katana weilding... off the top of my head: Last Samurai Blind Fury Highlander If you want to get into anime/manga, there are more: Kenshin Utena Escaflowne seriously, the 2-weap weilding is probably the result of a minimal of historical research. I mean, really. What is the most famous book written by a samurai? The Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi. What style did he use? The two sword approach. Now, granted, one was for defense, but when you fit that into standard D&D rules it you get TWF.
heretic888 04-27-06, 12:41 PM	I'd actually have to disagree, I can't find one, single bellowing, heavy armor wearing, dual-sword weilding, ki smiting anime or manga samurai anywhere. Which would indicate that pile of garbage they call a "samurai" (IMHO, here comes the flames anyway.) was either pulled entirely out of Wizard's ass, or a mishmash of bits and pieces taken from said sources. Perhaps I should amend my previous statement. I didn't mean to imply that you will find a "bellowing, heavy armor wearing, dual-sword weilding, ki smiting anime or manga samurai" in any given source. Rather, my idea is that the authors simply took elements from different sources (a "mishmash of bits and pieces" as you put it) and clumsily collapsed them into a single, largely incoherent construction. In all honesty, the CW Samurai is more akin to the Lancelot character from the recent King Arthur film than to any Japanese character. That, in my opinion, is very telling. Laterz.
narukagami 04-27-06, 12:53 PM	Perhaps I should amend my previous statement. I didn't mean to imply that you will find a "bellowing, heavy armor wearing, dual-sword weilding, ki smiting anime or manga samurai" in any given source. Rather, my idea is that the authors simply took elements from different sources (a "mishmash of bits and pieces" as you put it) and clumsily collapsed them into a single, largely incoherent construction. In all honesty, the CW Samurai is more akin to the Lancelot character from the recent King Arthur film than to any Japanese character. That, in my opinion, is very telling. Laterz. Ahhh, I see. Ok, I get what you mean now.
ZenZ 04-28-06, 12:45 AM	How about the Samurai from "Legend of the Samurai" d20 or Mongoose's "Complete Samurai"? How do they stack up?
Ranger REG 04-28-06, 09:54 PM	seriously, the 2-weap weilding is probably the result of a minimal of historical research. I mean, really. What is the most famous book written by a samurai? The Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi. What style did he use? The two sword approach. Now, granted, one was for defense, but when you fit that into standard D&D rules it you get TWF. No. You get the one TWF feat, and a boatload of TWD feat tree for free (the rest are in Complete Warrior) ... assuming you want a samurai character to master Musashi's Niten Ryu. But what does that says about the other Japanese swordfighting styles like Yagyu Shinkage? Non-existent? Maybe CW Samurai is supposed to a D&D variant of a samurai, but I honestly cannot stomach it. I'd rather go with OA version, both old AND new.
fendrin 05-01-06, 01:14 PM	No. You get the one TWF feat, and a boatload of TWD feat tree for free (the rest are in Complete Warrior) Good point. again though, minimum of research... For that matter, most of the complete series seems to have been written piecemeal, with separate sections not particularly referencing each other (as much as they should, anyway). those additional TWD feats may not have existed when the samurai was written. Which is not an excuse, more a postulation mixd with a complaint. anyway... ... assuming you want a samurai character to master Musashi's Niten Ryu. But what does that says about the other Japanese swordfighting styles like Yagyu Shinkage? Non-existent? Hey, like I said: minimum of research. I don't particularly disagree with any of your points, but I also don't think that the CW samurai is without merit, just that it needs some tweaking.
ZenZ 05-01-06, 05:21 PM	Which version do most PLAYERS like better? How about non-Munchkin players?
The_Shaman 05-01-06, 05:25 PM	It could be improved, perhaps, if instead of the Two Swords as One they gave them a succession of feats not unlike the ranger styles. In fact, I suppose the TSaO were made as a tweak of the ranger style. There was a very good swashbuckler core class around which offered around 10 or so styles, and for a samurai class there could be at least so many. Actually, if I play a samurai, I'd go for a yari or a polearm (naginata, probably) as a main weapon. Diversity is the spice of life, after all.
Ranger REG 05-01-06, 07:41 PM	I don't particularly disagree with any of your points, but I also don't think that the CW samurai is without merit, just that it needs some tweaking. But with all due respect, almost everyone here expect the CW samurai to be the improved, tweaked version of OA and/or S&F samurai. In my eyes, it failed.
mizukage 05-01-06, 10:59 PM	I perfer the OA samurai because it's more historically accurate than the CW one (e.g. the CW samurai assumes that all samurai fight with the katana and wakizashi while in reality the Wakizashi was typically used only for seppuku (ritual suicide) and the OA samurai allows you to be much more versitile as the historical samurai had to be (they needed to be skilled on a horse, with a bow, be representable nobles and retainers, and of course be skilled with the blade)) On top of that, the OA samurai leads more fluidly into prestige classes without forcing your character to be too horribly stereotypical (e.g. Bayushi Sakura, the half-elven wizard/samurai decides that she wants to honor both her elven mother and her Scorpion clan father by learning both her families' unique combat styles. She decides to do this by becoming an arcane archer.) If she were Wizard2/Samurai5 (for the required +6 base attack) and the -samurai class was the CW type, she would have to spend all 3 of her feats on the required feats for the prestige class and would be able to weild her daisho as though she had Two weapon fighting, quickdraw, and she can do a smite attack once per day (that does not specify that it must be melee) -If she were an OA samurai she would have ancestral daisho (worthless IMO unless you're using the rokugan varient which gives up EXP instead of gold) as well as two feats of her choice. the two feats are what really pull me in. if she has access to the Soul Forge feat from magic of rokugan, she could treat her bow as part of her daisho and give up some experience (or gold) to enhance it and the other could be used on a feat that she could really use for her melee fighting like Weapon Finesse, Weapon Panache, or perhaps even Arcane strike. If the player doesnt care for soul forge they could pick up void use as well as a Kiho feat, or if they don't care for melee at all maybe Rapid shot and manyshot basically, I like the OA one because it is so much more versitle
narukagami 05-01-06, 11:38 PM	Correct, except this: in reality the Wakizashi was typically used only for seppuku (ritual suicide) Dispite what pop-culture displays, seppuku was a rare thing. In later periods, specificly Edo, the wakizashi was part of a status symbol. From what I gather, its primary use was in indoor fighting, or as a backup weapon.
soul_knife4359 05-05-06, 02:54 PM	Nope. They had James Wyatt to do OA. I truly shudder to think that James is responsible for the CW version. this is only partially true. Wyatt did indeed write OA, however he had to have some input from AEG, because Rokugan is AEG's setting. Their cardgame The legend of the Five Rings, and both the pen and paper and LARP RPG's of the same name are in the setting. Wizards had to obtain the rights to use Rokugan from AEG, and no longer has them. this is partially why there was no web update of OA.
Azzy 05-06-06, 12:16 AM	this is only partially true. Wyatt did indeed write OA, however he had to have some input from AEG, because Rokugan is AEG's setting. Their cardgame The legend of the Five Rings, and both the pen and paper and LARP RPG's of the same name are in the setting. WotC owned the rights to Rokugan at the time. If AEG had any input into the design og OA, I doubt that would have extended to the game mechanics of any of the classes. Wizards had to obtain the rights to use Rokugan from AEG, and no longer has them. this is partially why there was no web update of OA. Considering that the official WotC update to OA was in Dragon magazine, and that OA was solely a WotC product, I don't think there's anything AEG-related about the update not appearing for free on the web.
Ranger REG 05-07-06, 01:37 AM	this is only partially true. Wyatt did indeed write OA, however he had to have some input from AEG, because Rokugan is AEG's setting. Ugh! Must you remind me of the $5 worth of printed material wasted on my OA book. :noway: Wizards had to obtain the rights to use Rokugan from AEG, and no longer has them. this is partially why there was no web update of OA. And whose fault was it to sell the IP to AEG in the first place? Although I'm sure they must have some legitimate financial reasons to do so. :smirk:
soul_knife4359 05-07-06, 12:09 PM	WotC owned the rights to Rokugan at the time. If AEG had any input into the design og OA, I doubt that would have extended to the game mechanics of any of the classes. Considering that the official WotC update to OA was in Dragon magazine, and that OA was solely a WotC product, I don't think there's anything AEG-related about the update not appearing for free on the web. Point 1 - Wizards didnt own the rights to Rokugan, they never have. Atleast, not completly. Otherwise AEG would probably have gone out of buisness, as 90% of their products at the time were Rokugan products, whether it was the card game, LARP, or pen and paper game. If WotC owned the rights completly instead of partnering, AEG couldnt have continued to release new supplements. Point 2 - About a year after OA was released, WotC decided not to renew their liscence with AEG. Therefor, if WotC tried to put an update online, they could have gotten sued. It's the same situation with the d20 Call of Cthulhu game. Point 3 - a company called Paizo, which is completly independant fro WotC prints Dragon magazine, and has for the last few years. Point 4 - WotC has gotten incredibly lazy as of late, and hasn't made too many web-enhancements. also, do you realize how may books the didnt post updates for? they simply didnt care. This is why i used the words partially why there was now web enhancement if you are going to tear down someones argument, look at everything they said, not just parts of it.
Celerian 05-07-06, 12:59 PM	Point 1- Wizards bought Five Rings Publishing Group, which owned the IP for L5R. Wizards allowed AEG to continue publishing the d10 material and CCG, until AEG bought the IP from Wizards. Point 2- See point 1. Point 3- Technically, Paizo is the current publisher of the two aforementioned magazines. But since Paizo is mainly consist of former TSR/WotC periodical department staff employees -- when the D&D publisher was circulating said magazines prior to Paizo -- and they have a good connection with the current publisher (WotC), most articles are written by WotC folks, be it in-house or contracting writers. The 3.5e OA article in question is actually written by the OA author himself, James Wyatt. Jesse Decker wrote the ninja class article in that same issue, which is now memorialized in his work, Complete Adventurer. Admittedly, I can't confirm this one, but it sounds good to me. Point 4- Not everything needs a web enhancement. Just because they don't put out web enhancements for every last sourcebook and module they publish, doesn't mean they're being lazy. Also, they do update the errata and FAQ on a fairly regular basis. Think I did a good enough job of hitting all your points?
Azzy 05-07-06, 01:12 PM	if you are going to tear down someones argument, look at everything they said, not just parts of it. Um, yeah... See Celerian's post about the facts of WotC/AEG/Rokugan. BTW, Paizo may be an independent company, but their magazines Dragon and Dungeon print "official" D&D material. A claim that they could not make without WotC's approval. In addition, the 3.5 Update for OA that appeared in Dragon was, as Ranger_REG correctly pointed out, written by the same individual that wrote OA. Namely, James Wyatt. It's officially official.
myusernameis 05-08-06, 02:31 AM	I'm kinda curious as to how the Master Samurai (sword and fist) or even the Fighter stacks up. But as far as OA vs CW I think they are both too magical to be "historically accurate" but as far as "culturally accurate" I am rather partial to the OA samurai. Plus I am a large fan of customizability.
Ranger REG 05-09-06, 05:55 AM	I'm kinda curious as to how the Master Samurai (sword and fist) or even the Fighter stacks up. IMNSHO, the master samurai can complement the OA samurai, although one can argue the iajutsu master is better. Then again, not all samurai characters will lean toward iaijutsu master, so it's nice to have other [PrC] options. But as far as OA vs CW I think they are both too magical to be "historically accurate" One could say the same for the Euro-centric Paladin class. :smirk:
ZenZ 05-09-06, 02:35 PM	What issue of Dragon was it that featured the OA to 3.5 update? Did they do all the classes? I also seem to recall a high level OA adventure in DUngeon over the past year. Seems a few folks haven't forgotten OA.
Ranger REG 05-09-06, 05:24 PM	What issue of Dragon was it that featured the OA to 3.5 update? Did they do all the classes? http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=570740 I also seem to recall a high level OA adventure in DUngeon over the past year. Seems a few folks haven't forgotten OA. Yeah, been meaning to pick it up for that one adventure. Hopefully it is less Rokugan-specific.
ZenZ 05-10-06, 05:34 PM	I don't recall it having much of Rokugan theme but it was designed so if you aren't playing OA you can use it in a standard D&D game. It seemed have a more Chinese feel IMO. How about the Wu Jen and Ninja in Complete Arcane and Adventurer? Have they been given a similar treatment to the Samurai?
Lord Gwydion 05-10-06, 08:00 PM	How about the Wu Jen and Ninja in Complete Arcane and Adventurer? Have they been given a similar treatment to the Samurai? The Wu Jen is tweaked a little, but relatively the same as far as the class abilities go. The spell list is a bit more conventional (not all of the OA Wu Jen spells made it into CA, so they added more Wiz/Sor spells). The same happened to the Shugenja in Complete Divine. The CD Spirit Shaman is a different class from the OA Shaman, if you were wondering, and the Sohei doesn't appear in the Complete series. The Ninja is a completely different beast in OA and CV. In OA, the idea for a Ninja is to use any appropriate base class (Rogue, Monk, Ranger, multiclass combo, whatever) and work towards a Ninja PrC. There is no Ninja base class in the book, so there isn't one in the 3.5 update article. In a separate article in the same issue, the CV Ninja made its debut. The Rokugan Campaign Sourcebook contains its own Ninja base class, which is very different from the CV Ninja.
myusernameis 05-12-06, 05:31 AM	One could say the same for the Euro-centric Paladin class. :smirk: Well one could say that about any class that runs around wielding magical weapons, I was just stating the obvious. The OA samurai just a glorified fighter is it not? What is actually the point? They do not introduce any major mechanics excepting that whole "Ancestral Daisho" bit, so why not just play a fighter with ancestral relic? The CW samurai, while it does not introduce anything stunningly new, (the ranger did the whole two weapon fighting bit already) it does at least add something (in the form of kaia smite and its staredown abilities) that another class does not already have in bundles. No this post is not meant to contradict my previous post, it is simply meant to raise a point, and I hope I have done so. If not may I burn in hell for not contributing something to a forum thread.
heretic888 05-12-06, 08:55 AM	The OA samurai just a glorified fighter is it not? Sorta, but not really. What is actually the point? To play a slightly toned-down Fighter with a high Will save, a lawful code of conduct, and a few extra skill points and social class skills. The CW samurai, while it does not introduce anything stunningly new, (the ranger did the whole two weapon fighting bit already) it does at least add something (in the form of kaia smite and its staredown abilities) that another class does not already have in bundles. The same can be said of the OA Samurai, although not in the form of specific class features. Also, although it shouldn't have to be said at this point, the CW Samurai is just a terribly awkward and limited class, possibly the worst "official" class in the game. Laterz.
narukagami 05-12-06, 02:02 PM	The OA samurai just a glorified fighter is it not? What is actually the point? High will save, different class skill set, more skill points, a lawful code of conduct. Did I mention different class skill set and more skill points? :P They do not introduce any major mechanics excepting that whole "Ancestral Daisho" bit, so why not just play a fighter with ancestral relic? They actually do, technically. The Ancestral Daisho predates ancestral relic by a very signifigant amount of time. Thus, it was the samurai that introduced the whole concept of upgrading your own weapons in that manner to 3.x D&D. The CW samurai, while it does not introduce anything stunningly new, (the ranger did the whole two weapon fighting bit already) it does at least add something (in the form of kaia smite and its staredown abilities) that another class does not already have in bundles. Plenty of classes have various forms of smiting, and that staredown isn't much different than Kiai Shout and Greater Kiai Shout. One could honestly make a vastly superior emulation of the CW samurai with clever multiclassing with the OA samurai and a few PrCs. Multiclassing is another issue, the CW samurai is fairly worthless unless you do a straight 1-20 progression, and has only 2 PrCs that are worth anything to it, "Ronin" ( :yuck: ) and the Kensai.
Azzy 05-12-06, 09:22 PM	And shouldn't a "ronin" just be an "ex-samurai?" And why is it that only James Wyatt can spell "kensei" right?
myusernameis 05-13-06, 12:38 AM	the CW Samurai is just a terribly awkward and limited class, possibly the worst "official" class in the game. I can't actually bring myself to argue that.
Ranger REG 05-13-06, 05:23 AM	And why is it that only James Wyatt can spell "kensei" right? I blame my fellow members of the D&D community, mainly those whose Asian Studies skill is limited to English-dubbed anime. :P You see, this is what happens when you let fans influence (or should I say, interrupt) your next creative work. That and the CW samurai are end results. :devil:
yukisanada 05-17-06, 06:08 PM	See if you want an accurate samurai class you need to have someone that is Japanese and has samurai heritage to make a better attempt than the pathetic attempt on the CW samurai, instead of learning off of animes try actually looking the historical facts up.
heretic888 05-17-06, 06:14 PM	See if you want an accurate samurai class you need to have someone that is Japanese and has samurai heritage to make a better attempt than the pathetic attempt on the CW samurai, instead of learning off of animes try actually looking the historical facts up. What possesses you into thinking a Japanese with "samurai heritage" would be more informed about the subject than anybody else?? I would argue such a person is more likely to have even more fantasies and misconceptions about the samurai than would be expected. Laterz.
narukagami 05-17-06, 07:28 PM	What possesses you into thinking a Japanese with "samurai heritage" would be more informed about the subject than anybody else?? I would argue such a person is more likely to have even more fantasies and misconceptions about the samurai than would be expected. Laterz. Sums up the response I was about to give. Not to sound like I'm attacking anyone, but allow me to demonstrate the flaw of the "Japanese person with samurai heritage knows best" argument with a personal anecdote: Some backstory: At my former college there were quite a few international students from all across the world. These aren't your expected "lived in America as an exchange student for several years" types, the "living in America" experiance for the mass majority of them was going to that college. I was a SRA (Senior Resident Assistant) and got the pleasure of meeting most of them almost straight off the plane. The bulk of these fine folk were Japanese. For a few I was thier first American friend, I even dated one. ANYWAY, before I get lost in memories. The actual point of the story: Through alot of conversations when the issue came up from time to time, I slowly learned that I knew more about Japanese history, samurai, and their arms, armor, fighting techniques, and tactics than the lot of them. Those that I spoke to were either amazed or supprised by this fact. On the converse of that, I'm American, I live in America, and a couple of them know a heck of a lot more about the politics of American government than I do. Conclusion: Being Japanese or decended from samurai doesn't mean jack. Heck, I'm decended from Hungarian nobility that fled from the communists and I don't know jack about Hungary other than rudamentary knowledge of its involvement in the World Wars.
Azzy 05-17-06, 08:19 PM	What possesses you into thinking a Japanese with "samurai heritage" would be more informed about the subject than anybody else?? I would argue such a person is more likely to have even more fantasies and misconceptions about the samurai than would be expected. [Devil's Advocate]Considering that D&D classes tend to embrace legendary and literary archetypes over historical accuracy, one could make a compelling argument to the contrary... Being that a native Japanese would be much more intimately familiar with the samurai of myth, legend and literature, they could create a class that provides a more iconically accurate representation of the samurai. As is often pointed out, sometimes historical accuracy must be taken in the backseat of cultural authenticity.[/Devil's Advocate]
narukagami 05-17-06, 09:17 PM	[Devil's Advocate]Considering that D&D classes tend to embrace legendary and literary archetypes over historical accuracy, one could make a compelling argument to the contrary... Being that a native Japanese would be much more intimately familiar with the samurai of myth, legend and literature, they could create a class that provides a more iconically accurate representation of the samurai. As is often pointed out, sometimes historical accuracy must be taken in the backseat of cultural authenticity.[/Devil's Advocate] While all well and good. The issue as per the implication of the statement is historical accuracy. So, your point, while not invalid, is irrelivant.
Hochiu 05-17-06, 09:55 PM	Four words: The Rape of Nanking. Ask the average Japanese individual if it happened and they won't know whether to look at you blankly, recoil in horror or smack you and yell at you. Seriously. That incident happened seventy years ago and they're STILL arguing whether it really happened or not. Numerous Japanese text book companies have been brought into court for law suit by the authors for the companies editing out the horrors that had happened in Nanking. So how are you expecting people to have ANY form of accurate knowledge relating to a period of history that's been over since the latter part of the 19th century? If it's not edited out, it's apotheosised heavily. That's like saying, because I'm Italian descendant, I know EVERYTHING about the Roman Empire accurately. If I did, I'd definately not have to worry about spending as much money going to school as I do now.
Azzy 05-17-06, 11:05 PM	So how are you expecting people to have ANY form of accurate knowledge relating to a period of history that's been over since the latter part of the 19th century? If it's not edited out, it's apotheosised heavily. I really hope this post was not in response to mine, because this has no relevancy to my devil's advocacy--which simply revolves around the argument that a cultural native has an accrued understanding of cultural archetypes due to being a part of said culture and reinforced by exposure to myths, legends, literature and art that reflects said culture (even if distorted by wishful thinking or outright revisionism). Compare with the popular Eurocentric conception of knights in shining armour, sagious wizards and fire-breathing dragons. Heretic888 already covered the historical accuracy angle. I agree with him completely. It was not a point I was contesting. What my devil's advocacy is contesting is the notion that a class should be based solely around an historical precedent rather than the precedent of a cultural ideal. Both are equally meritous, though the latter may be more appropriate for a fantasy role-playing game. For more historical RPGs, such as Sengoku, the former takes higher priority.
yukisanada 05-22-06, 06:22 PM	Can anyone seriously look at the CW samurai and not laugh?
Ranger REG 05-22-06, 09:02 PM	Can anyone seriously look at the CW samurai and not laugh? Seriously, no. Oftentime, I am slighted by it.
AZNsupermarket 05-22-06, 10:05 PM	the CW samurai assumes that all samurai fight with the katana and wakizashi while in reality the Wakizashi was typically used only for seppuku (ritual suicide) I think that CW was going for a "Musashi Miyamoto Class" (famous samurai who perfected the art of fighting with a katana and wakazashi simultaneously)
yukisanada 05-22-06, 10:33 PM	I think that CW was going for a "Musashi Miyamoto Class" (famous samurai who perfected the art of fighting with a katana and wakazashi simultaneously) I agree so if that style doesnt suit you then go with OA.
narukagami 05-22-06, 10:46 PM	I think that CW was going for a "Musashi Miyamoto Class" (famous samurai who perfected the art of fighting with a katana and wakazashi simultaneously) Except, as stated many a time before, the off hand weapon in his style is used in a primarily defensive manner, so I state once again, it even fails in that regard.
Fuzzy_Logic 05-22-06, 11:44 PM	The CW Samurai sucks because it ahs no options, its only good single-classed, and even then its much, much worse than a straight fighter. and everything said above. However, its concept isn't as terrible as you make it out to be. first off, I vastly prefr the OA samurai to the CW one. I lvoe the OA samurai. but you know wat? I own OA. it doesn't need a 3.5 update, at least the Samurai don't. furthermore, the one with cultural authenticity is the one in OA, whicc is the book you would expect people like me who care about getting this stuff right to buy. Of course, the CW samurai is based more on western samurai myths than Japanese ones. that's because it's wirtten for western gamers. ultimately, Wizards makes the classes the players want, and most players want a class to conform to their own diea of what the class should be. Complete warrior wasn't advertised as an "oriental" book, so It doesn't have the burden fo cultural accuracy that OA does. and basing a class on one notable figure is fine. Ranger= aragon. Paladin= Roland. I don't like the CW samurai because it sucks. on the toher hand, The fact that it was based on a veyr western look at samurai doens't bother me all that much. If it had been based on Ruroni Kenshin type characters, for instance: a two-weapon wielding (i know kenshin doesn't, but) dex- and wis- based lightly armored dueslit character with itneresting class features, I would have been happy with it. it wouldn't be authentically Japanese, I would be glad to have the OA one available, but it would be a class that modeling an interesting mythical figure form MY culture.
Ranger REG 05-23-06, 05:58 AM	first off, I vastly prefr the OA samurai to the CW one. I lvoe the OA samurai. but you know wat? I own OA. it doesn't need a 3.5 update, at least the Samurai don't. furthermore, the one with cultural authenticity is the one in OA, whicc is the book you would expect people like me who care about getting this stuff right to buy. Maybe ... yet James Wyatt did offer 3.5e OA update in Dragon #318. It may be a minor add-on to the class (at 4th level, the ancestral daisho weapon is considered an honorable weapon for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction), but useful.
Lord Gwydion 05-23-06, 06:02 AM	and basing a class on one notable figure is fine. Ranger= aragon. Paladin= Roland. While I agree with your thoughts concerning the CW Samurai for the most part, I have to disagree with this statement a bit. While the Ranger was originally pretty much Tolkien's ranger--namely, Aragorn (although Faramir and Elrond's sons and some minor characters were also rangers in Tolkien), the Paladin is hardly only based on Roland. All 12 of the Peers of Charlemagne, and quite a few of the main Knights of the Round Table were also the basis for the Paladin. Then there's St. George, King Richard the Lionheart, and other legendary (or legendary versions of the actual historical people) knights of the Middle Ages, as immortalized in the French and Italian Romances. And if the CW Samurai is supposed to be "Musashi--the Base Class!" I think they did a fairly poor job of it.
Nobunaga Oda 05-23-06, 09:57 AM	The CW Samurai sucks because it ahs no options, its only good single-classed, and even then its much, much worse than a straight fighter. and everything said above. However, its concept isn't as terrible as you make it out to be. first off, I vastly prefr the OA samurai to the CW one. I lvoe the OA samurai. but you know wat? I own OA. it doesn't need a 3.5 update, at least the Samurai don't. furthermore, the one with cultural authenticity is the one in OA, whicc is the book you would expect people like me who care about getting this stuff right to buy. Of course, the CW samurai is based more on western samurai myths than Japanese ones. that's because it's wirtten for western gamers. ultimately, Wizards makes the classes the players want, and most players want a class to conform to their own diea of what the class should be. Complete warrior wasn't advertised as an "oriental" book, so It doesn't have the burden fo cultural accuracy that OA does. and basing a class on one notable figure is fine. Ranger= aragon. Paladin= Roland. I don't like the CW samurai because it sucks. on the toher hand, The fact that it was based on a veyr western look at samurai doens't bother me all that much. If it had been based on Ruroni Kenshin type characters, for instance: a two-weapon wielding (i know kenshin doesn't, but) dex- and wis- based lightly armored dueslit character with itneresting class features, I would have been happy with it. it wouldn't be authentically Japanese, I would be glad to have the OA one available, but it would be a class that modeling an interesting mythical figure form MY culture. Itīs not about "being japanese"...Itīs about "being a Samurai". Whatīs a Samurai? Many things. Thatīs why the OA is so custominizable. And I am sorry, but why the Paladin is based on Myths and western culture and the CW Samurai is not? Is just a plain "I Think Musashi foght with two swords" class...That really anoys me. Why the CW samurai is just a big pile of boring miscomceptions? You can recreate it with the RANGER for godīs sake...
yukisanada 05-23-06, 06:21 PM	Itīs not about "being japanese"...Itīs about "being a Samurai". Whatīs a Samurai? Many things. Thatīs why the OA is so custominizable. And I am sorry, but why the Paladin is based on Myths and western culture and the CW Samurai is not? Is just a plain "I Think Musashi foght with two swords" class...That really anoys me. Why the CW samurai is just a big pile of boring miscomceptions? You can recreate it with the RANGER for godīs sake... Amen lord of Oda!
Ranger REG 05-23-06, 06:56 PM	I don't like the CW samurai because it sucks. on the toher hand, The fact that it was based on a veyr western look at samurai doens't bother me all that much. Maybe not to the Western folk/customers, but it does to non-Western, mainly Asians. If you're going to do a Western archetype that is loosely based on one particular samurai swordsman because of his sole fighting technique, don't call it a samurai. You're shortchanging it. As Judge Judy would say, "don't urinate on my leg and call it 'rain'." Would you accept it if a paladin is more based on Shaka Zulu than on Roland/Arthurian chivalrous types? Won't look right to you Euro-Western folks, now would it?
JodiePascal 05-25-06, 09:58 PM	The Samurai is a very complex character, if played correctly. Although the Samurai must adhere to the code of Bushido, ecah clans Samurai is somewhat different. They each have different motivations, emotions and may even prefer to fight with different weapons. Remember the Daisho is a gift from the ancestors, not a toy to be banged about on the battlefield! So I will have to say the best version of the Samurai class is the one presented in the Rokugan d20 campaign setting...
Fuzzy_Logic 05-25-06, 11:51 PM	Maybe not to the Western folk/customers, but it does to non-Western, mainly Asians. If you're going to do a Western archetype that is loosely based on one particular samurai swordsman because of his sole fighting technique, don't call it a samurai. You're shortchanging it. As Judge Judy would say, "don't urinate on my leg and call it 'rain'." Would you accept it if a paladin is more based on Shaka Zulu than on Roland/Arthurian chivalrous types? Won't look right to you Euro-Western folks, now would it? well, western folk ARE their main customers. na dbesides, I know plent yof people of celtic descent who have no problem with the D&D Druid. honestly, fi you want culturall authenticity, you buy OA, which at least tried, and, though my knowledge is not limitless, seemed to do a good job with the samurai. complete warrior is NOT oriental adventures.
Hochiu 05-26-06, 01:38 AM	Um. I'm of Celtic descent, and I have a problem with the D&D Druid as written. In fact, I put a lot of emphasis on that part, because I draw a lot of Druidic belief into my spirituality. Just like I have a problem with the CW Samurai, even though I'm not Japanese. Oriental Adventures isn't cultural "authenticity". It's flavor. There's a big difference. Just like D&D isn't cultural authenticity of a Western European vein. It's a bunch of beliefs and ideas about a certain point in our history that has been mixed with romanticism and fantasy to create a different world. Just because it uses a medieval gloss doesn't make it any more authentic. JodiePascal: Actually, the best presentation of the "samurai" would be a title based on the following of a specific code, whether a code of honor or a code of war. It's a caste term and, until the PHB II came out, one I could equate with the Western notion of the Knight. Sure, you had the PrC "Knight Protector", but you didn't have a class that filled the station of a knight in the traditional sense. It was typically a title gained through either character heritage or in-game roleplay, and to get that you would generally be a martial character (typically fighter). Of course, now a number of people who want to be a "knight" in game are going to feel that they HAVE to take the Knight class as presented in the PHB II. Same way with a samurai. How many people here have played a "samurai" character without actually belonging to the class (That is, caste station only)? I have.
Ranger REG 05-26-06, 04:08 AM	well, western folk ARE their main customers. na dbesides, I know plent yof people of celtic descent who have no problem with the D&D Druid.Hey, if they have no objection, then more power to them. complete warrior is NOT oriental adventures. Of that we can BOTH agree. What a breakthrough! I just don't want them naive gamers to think that CW samurai replaces OA samurai, anymore than some filmgoer watching Da Vinci Code and get the mistaken impression that Opus Dei is a monastic order. Otherwise, don't call that CW dual-swordfighting class a samurai. Pick a more Euro/Westernized name. P.S. Have I already quoted on this thread by Judge Judy about urinating on my leg and call it rain? :smirk:
Kargush 05-26-06, 09:58 AM	But I still think a skill that lets you deal potentially +9d6 damage is too powerful, because it is too good for a skill. The wizard dealing 15d6 damage spent 15 class levels to be able to do that. The samurai merely spent skill points. skills should never be that good. Considering that he must have a +30 on his skill check(charisma, skill-focus, and ranks) and roll a natural 20 on the check to do +9d6 dmg, I'd say the skill isn't to good. He'll need skill focus, 23 ranks(lvl 20) and 18 in charisma to hit that, without going epic. Sure, the iaijutsu master adds to damage. Sure, you can take a feat that adds 1d6 to the damage. Sure, you can take rogue levels to add even more. But since this requires striking a flat-footed opponent, it isn't all that powerful. First, you need to be within striking distance, then you have to beat the opponents initiative check. Then, you need to hit, and make a sufficiently high skill check. Considering average luck, I'd say you get perhaps 4-6 extra d6 of damage, and that's at mid- to high.level play. On the topic of OA samurai vs CW samurai, I go in the OA camp. Hands down.
Hochiu 05-26-06, 02:52 PM	Otherwise, don't call that CW dual-swordfighting class a samurai. Pick a more Euro/Westernized name. Or...we can invent a time machine to go back and have them lose that particular section of Complete Warrior. Honestly, knowing some people, that may be eaiser.
Ranger REG 05-26-06, 08:20 PM	Yeah, but I'm afraid they'll replace it with a Zulu warrior class and portray them like seafaring Vikings. :P
Lord Gwydion 05-26-06, 09:32 PM	Yeah, but I'm afraid they'll replace it with a Zulu warrior class and portray them like seafaring Vikings. :P And all the Robert E. Howard fans will be up in arms because they mangled REH's image of the pirates of Kush and the southern jungle kingdoms that Conan sailed with.
Ranger REG 05-27-06, 04:10 AM	And all the Robert E. Howard fans will be up in arms because they mangled REH's image of the pirates of Kush and the southern jungle kingdoms that Conan sailed with. Oh, yeah. You really do not want to rile up REH fans. Nasty bunch, worse than the Vandals that pillaged Rome. :P
Lord Gwydion 05-27-06, 07:33 PM	Oh, yeah. You really do not want to rile up REH fans. Nasty bunch, worse than the Vandals that pillaged Rome. :P And only slightly less nasty than riled up Tolkien fans, whom many compare to the Huns on a bad day crossed with hornets protecting their hive. :schemes:
Hochiu 05-27-06, 11:52 PM	I'd actually prefer to go into battle against the Huns in my bare skin than deal with purist Tolkien fans on a good day.
narukagami 05-28-06, 01:02 PM	All fanboys will rabidly fight to the death to defend their chosen obsession. Some moreso than others. I was almost killed in a comic book shop for saying to my friend: "In my opinion, Peter Jackson is a terrible director and got lucky with the Lord of the Rings movies, anyone givin the budget would have done the exact same film, and he didn't even do any actual directorial work! It was all that skinny blond guy in the making of disk. The only other movie he directed that wasn't total **** was The Frighteners." Its my opinion and I'm sticking with it! :P But enough of the sidebar. If the CW samurai is supposed to be based off anime and pop culture, why do all its class features come from things that aren't even the norm in these sources?
heretic888 05-28-06, 01:17 PM	If the CW samurai is supposed to be based off anime and pop culture, why do all its class features come from things that aren't even the norm in these sources? I don't know about "anime and pop culture", but.... In my opinion, the CW Samurai is simply a clumsy amalgam created by taking bits and pieces from different sources and collapsing them together into this bizarre patchwork-quilt abberation. For example, you will probably never find a fictional (or historical) "samurai" that dons heavy armor and wields two swords. However, you are likely to find a samurai that dons geavy armor in one source and a samurai who wields two swords in another source. In their respective sources, the former samurai probably wields a longbow or a polearm, while the latter samurai probably walks around unarmored. I feel that is what they did with the CW Samurai. They just mined the bits and pieces they liked from a variety of sources, clumsily hybridizing them into a rather awkward and incoherent product. The result is essentially a cartoonish caricature that incorporates a number of stereotypical traits associated with "the samurai", but that no one samurai in history or fiction ever actually possessed. It would have been preferable, in my opinion, to provide players an avenue to customize their "samurai" along a series of different paths or combat styles. But, instead, we get the cartoon patchwork-quilt. Go figure. Laterz.
aelryinth 05-29-06, 01:46 AM	What's even more funny, is that in 1e, Musasashi is the inspriation for the Kensai/Sword Saint class, which later evolves into the Weapon Master for 3e. He's NOT the inspiration for a samurai. heh. ===Aelryinth
yukisanada 05-30-06, 05:44 PM	as you said heretic... In my opinion, the CW Samurai is simply a clumsy amalgam created by taking bits and pieces from different sources and collapsing them together into this bizarre patchwork-quilt abberation. For example, you will probably never find a fictional (or historical) "samurai" that dons heavy armor and wields two swords. However, you are likely to find a samurai that dons geavy armor in one source and a samurai who wields two swords in another source. In their respective sources, the former samurai probably wields a longbow or a polearm, while the latter samurai probably walks around unarmored. I feel that is what they did with the CW Samurai. They just mined the bits and pieces they liked from a variety of sources, clumsily hybridizing them into a rather awkward and incoherent product. The result is essentially a cartoonish caricature that incorporates a number of stereotypical traits associated with "the samurai", but that no one samurai in history or fiction ever actually possessed. It would have been preferable, in my opinion, to provide players an avenue to customize their "samurai" along a series of different paths or combat styles. But, instead, we get the cartoon patchwork-quilt. Go figure. yes I agree with you entirely!
steamboat28 05-30-06, 07:22 PM	And shouldn't a "ronin" just be an "ex-samurai?" And why is it that only James Wyatt can spell "kensei" right? Actually, we use the spelling difference (and pronunciation) as a point of clarification between the OA and CW sword-masters. For our DM: Kensai (ken-sye) = CW class, "ancestral weapon" emulation class skill, requires oath of service, better general choice for weapon masters, in our campaigns is a more "magical" class. Kensei (ken-say) = OA class, very different class-skill set, different requirements, nearly always a sword master (as opposed to using unarmed or ranged weapons as favored), much better in our campaigns for Samurai, is much more skill- and technique-based for our campaigns, rather than magic-based. I, for example, am going to take levels of Kensei soon since I play a samurai, and our DM has tentatively ruled until he reads *all* of OA, he's not allowing Kensai Weapon of Choice to stack with Ancestral Daisho, and because due to the campaign setting, he's isolated me as the only samurai on the continent (so, technically I'm a ronin, but not the PrC, since I think it's useless. lol) If he allows Ancestral Daisho and Weapon of Choice to stack, and I find a suitable "master" (since I'm samurai, and I need one eventually; plus our campaign setting uses a ranking system to show status and caste, and i'm thinking of taking Daidoji Bodyguard as a PrC later), I might dip into Kensai after I take the levels I want of Kensei. Confused yet? ;)
steamboat28 05-30-06, 07:36 PM	What's even more funny, is that in 1e, Musasashi is the inspriation for the Kensai/Sword Saint class, which later evolves into the Weapon Master for 3e. Other than dredging through eBay to try and find 1e (I came into D&D just before 3E came out), is there an SRD or somesuch that lists the original Kensai/Sword Saint class? My DM talks about it incessantly and how it "rules the friggin' world", and I'd just like to see it for myself.
Lord Gwydion 05-30-06, 09:03 PM	Well, I always thought the 1E OA Kensai was a pretty cool class. It wasn't a powerhouse, though. Basically, it mimics the armorless master swordsman (Edo period samurai/ronin) from Japanese movies/TV dramas. It's Musashi, Zatoichi, Abarenbo Shogun, etc. It had progressive attack/damage bonuses to the katana and unarmored AC bonuses as it leveled. In 3.5, a Fighter or OA Samurai without any armor proficiencies but the Monk's defensive progression (Wis to AC plus level bonuses) and the bonus feats relevant to a specific weapon type (Wpn. Focus chain, Imp. Crit, etc.) limited to a single weapon would be a good aproximation.
yukisanada 06-13-06, 01:10 AM	I have an idea try this just choose your favorite class throw the samurai name to it and just play it out because it is just a GAME!
Azzy 06-13-06, 01:27 AM	Confused yet? ;) Stangely, no.
heretic888 06-13-06, 10:38 AM	I have an idea try this just choose your favorite class throw the samurai name to it and just play it out because it is just a GAME! I'm inclined to agree with this in that "samurai" is really just a social position or, at best, an ideal. It does not necessarily connote a skillset or some special training. That being said, however, I do believe there should be something like the OA Samurai which provides a warrior-noble class for player characters (as opposed to the NPC Aristocrat), who may or may not be "samurai". In much the same way, I think there should be something like the Courtier class in Rokugan for player characters who are so inclined. Laterz.
madmonk 06-13-06, 01:44 PM	I have seen like five samurai classes. Apart from those two from the topic of this thread, there is the moongose samurai (a bit on the powerful side, better than CW, but the book's only asset are some magical items and the prestige classes, as well as social "combat" rules). The other I think was a variant (think kit from 2nd edition) of the fighter, and the last one is the one from RPGObject's Legend of the Samurai. That one is very cool, but they force upon you the katana specialization, followed by yari and yumi. However, this one lacks the 4 skill points that OA has, which is better to model educated, noble warriors. All in all, nothing can beat the OA customizability. Maybe some level substitution/optional class features such as monk's AC bonuses instead of armor proficiency, and losing access to all martial weapons but one (or one exotic) and gaining acces to fighter-only feats at 1,2 or even 3 levels higher to represent very specific arquetypes of warriors. Finally, the OA is the best because it can represent ksatriyas, noble xia and other noble warriors from ALL cultures, while the CW can only represent musashi wannabes. In my campaign, I use the OA samurai in the west as the knight class, with the trade-off of Heavy armor and shield, but loses iaijutsu focus Mount ability of 3.0 paladins, but loses ancestral daisho (no poke-horse)
yukisanada 06-15-06, 05:36 PM	Exactly!!!! heretic!
madmonk 06-15-06, 06:23 PM	? exactly? heretic? could you be more especific my friend?
yukisanada 06-15-06, 06:34 PM	I am agreeing with what heretic888 posted on the previous page.
Deper 06-20-06, 11:13 AM	The CW Samurai isn't based on a fighting style at all. He's based on iconic ideas about a samurai from popular culture. -Samurai are intimidating. -Samurai are quick. -Samurai are powerful. -Samurai are honourable. So where does the whole "Two-sword fighting" come from? Who's style where they trying to represent? Were they trying to copy something on tv? No. They were giving a mechanical representation to the fact that the iconic samurai of popular culture carries two swords, the same reason the OA samurai gets his ancestoral daisho. Now stop trying to project "historical accuracy" on a class based on popular culture. You're muddying clear waters. By the way, could someone the proper list of feats that give a ranger every one of the CW samurai's abilities to prove that the CW samurai is completely redundant.
Nobunaga Oda 06-20-06, 01:20 PM	The CW Samurai isn't based on a fighting style at all. He's based on iconic ideas about a samurai from popular culture. -Samurai are intimidating. -Samurai are quick. -Samurai are powerful. -Samurai are honourable. So where does the whole "Two-sword fighting" come from? Who's style where they trying to represent? Were they trying to copy something on tv? No. They were giving a mechanical representation to the fact that the iconic samurai of popular culture carries two swords, the same reason the OA samurai gets his ancestoral daisho. Now stop trying to project "historical accuracy" on a class based on popular culture. You're muddying clear waters. By the way, could someone the proper list of feats that give a ranger every one of the CW samurai's abilities to prove that the CW samurai is completely redundant. For you question: Why donīt you just grab the kiai shout? Kiai Smite isnīt powerful nor is the Staredown. Rangers win way more stuff. And better stuff. Who is trying to project "Historical Accuracy" on the CW Samurai? Most of arguments are about the fantasy and myths that surround the Samurai, and that the CW one fails to portrait.
Deper 06-20-06, 01:59 PM	For you question: Why donīt you just grab the kiai shout? Kiai Smite isnīt powerful nor is the Staredown. Rangers win way more stuff. And better stuff. Kiai Smite is a version of a Paladin's Smite Evil without any alignment restrictions added to it. Where is Kiai Shout, because it must be one broken feat to be better than an unlocked Smite Evil. {Edit}Found it. First of all, Kiai Shout is not better than Kiai Smite. One does damage, one causes enemies to be shaken. You cannot properly compare the two abilities because they do two completely different things. Anyway, you waste all your attacks during a Kiai Shout to make your shaken for a short period, if they fail their save. While it may be better than staredown at lower levels, it isn't as good at high levels when the CW Samurai can cause a similar (if not as long lasting) effect every single round as a free action.{/Edit} The CW Samurai gets more bonus feats than the ranger does, and it is extremely easy to boost his intimidate skill seeing as how cheap magic items that boost skills are. Being able to penalize every enemy in sight, every round without spending is helpful to the entire party. And at the highest level you are still facing foes with less than 20 hitdice, especially if they have a template on. So no, you can't replicate the CW Samurai with a ranger. Who is trying to project "Historical Accuracy" on the CW Samurai? Most of arguments are about the fantasy and myths that surround the Samurai, and that the CW one fails to portrait. Actually, no. Most people who start explaining why they hate the CW samurai start asking what style of samurai it tries to copy. They give specific examples of 2 weapon fighters and point out that they are in the minority. But if you look at the samurai of popular culture, the CW samurai does line up pretty well.
heretic888 06-20-06, 05:14 PM	iActually, no. Most people who start explaining why they hate the CW samurai start asking what style of samurai it tries to copy. They give specific examples of 2 weapon fighters and point out that they are in the minority. But if you look at the samurai of popular culture, the CW samurai does line up pretty well. Actually, no. It doesn't. At no point in popular culture will you see a single samurai character that even vaguely resembles the CW Samurai class. Not a single one. The methodology behind the CW Samurai was to take bits and pieces of "samurai" lore from different sources, and then rather awkwardly collapse them into a patchwork-quilt caricature. The result is a "samurai" that doesn't look like any one samurai from either history, legend, or popular fiction. Instead, the CW Samurai tries to look like all of them. Rather badly, I might add, since the qualities from X Source don't necessarily mesh well with the qualities of Y Source. But, hey, I'm not the one that wrote the damn thing. At best, the CW Samurai is an amalgamated caricature of the samurai of popular culture. But, you'll never be able to play any single pop-culture samurai character using this class (at least not without multiclassing). Laterz.
Deper 06-20-06, 05:28 PM	Actually, no. It doesn't. At no point in popular culture will you see a single samurai character that even vaguely resembles the CW Samurai class. Not a single one. Neither does the OA Samurai replicate any historical figure, and its pretty bad at showing pop culture ones as well. It focuses on the Tokungawa noble samurai, who weren't allowed to fight anyway, but locks them into carrying swords, and never being able to perform even the slightest chaotic act (like sending soup back because you changed your mind and want the salad). The methodology behind the CW Samurai was to take bits and pieces of "samurai" lore from different sources, and then rather awkwardly collapse them into a patchwork-quilt caricature. The result is a "samurai" that doesn't look like any one samurai from either history, legend, or popular fiction. Instead, the CW Samurai tries to look like all of them. Rather badly, I might add, since the qualities from X Source don't necessarily mesh well with the qualities of Y Source. But, hey, I'm not the one that wrote the damn thing. So what if they didn't mesh together in the past? What in each element (speed, power, intimidation, honour, two blades) is utterly against one another, or the iconic pop culture samurai? The only odd part is the two weapon fighting, which represents the iconic samurai holding two swords, and is no better or worse than the "never, under ANY circumstances shall you let go of these blades" of the OA samurai. At best, the CW Samurai is an amalgamated caricature of the samurai of popular culture. But, you'll never be able to play any single pop-culture samurai character using this class (at least not without multiclassing). Laterz. What keeps the CW samurai from being a speed based fighter? He automatically gets improved initative and quick draw as he levels. What keeps him from being a two weapon fighter? He gets all those feats too. What keeps him from being an intimidating one, or one that does focus on two blades? The class gives you a lot of varied abilities, and each one has a connection to samurai culture. If you want to play a very specific type of samurai, you use the fighter class. If you want to play an iconic samurai, you can take the CW class, gain access to all of the abilities and then use your feat selection to customize exactly what you are best with.
Nobunaga Oda 06-20-06, 07:18 PM	Neither does the OA Samurai replicate any historical figure, and its pretty bad at showing pop culture ones as well. It focuses on the Tokungawa noble samurai, who weren't allowed to fight anyway, but locks them into carrying swords, and never being able to perform even the slightest chaotic act (like sending soup back because you changed your mind and want the salad). Well, by that argument, nor the Fighter can represent any fighter in the history, since he only got Bonus feat :rolleyes: . You are right. These restritions are dumb...Thatīs why I use the OA Samurai from the Rokugan campaign setting, there you can be chaotic(And neutral). And the OA Samurai have some roots of the Tokugawa Samurai yes, but you can recreate a playable Samurai of any era with him. While you can do the same in any class, with the OA Samurai is easier. Just look at the abilities of the CW Samurai.
Deper 06-20-06, 07:24 PM	Well, by that argument, nor the Fighter can represent any fighter in the history, since he only got Bonus feat :rolleyes: . Which allow him to copy any fighting style. The OA samurai locks into the noble samurai of the Bakufu, because of its High Will save and Skill points. You are right. These restritions are dumb...Thatīs why I use the OA Samurai from the Rokugan campaign setting, there you can be chaotic(And neutral). And the OA Samurai have some roots of the Tokugawa Samurai yes, but you can recreate a playable Samurai of any era with him. While you can do the same in any class, with the OA Samurai is easier. Just look at the abilities of the CW Samurai. The OA samurai is just a fighter version of the Tokungawa samurai. The CW samurai is the a combination of all iconic abilities that you finish customizing with your own feats.
heretic888 06-20-06, 07:54 PM	Neither does the OA Samurai replicate any historical figure, and its pretty bad at showing pop culture ones as well. It focuses on the Tokungawa noble samurai, who weren't allowed to fight anyway, but locks them into carrying swords, and never being able to perform even the slightest chaotic act (like sending soup back because you changed your mind and want the salad). Says you. The OA Samurai makes a reasonable approximation of the Tokugawa samurai of the Edo period and, to a lesser extent, the Todai samurai of the Heian period. I also find the comment about being locked into "carrying swords" and not being able to perform "the slightest chaotic act" to be entirely nonsensical, as there are guidelines toward variants of the class (in both ancestral weapons and code of conduct) in the book itself. So what if they didn't mesh together in the past? What in each element (speed, power, intimidation, honour, two blades) is utterly against one another, or the iconic pop culture samurai? The integration of heavy armor and two-weapon fighting, for one thing. The former is a strictly battlefield armament, while the latter is a methodology of peacetime duelists. You will never see a samurai in history or fiction that dons heavy armor and wields two swords. It just doesn't happen. The CW Samurai's code of "honor" is also Western bullshido gibberish. It has absolutely no resonance with the samurai of history or folklore. Come to think of it, I don't know of many iconic samurai that use their "ki" to "smite" their enemies, either. . . The only odd part is the two weapon fighting, which represents the iconic samurai holding two swords. . . The iconic samurai carries two swords, he does not fight with two swords. It is a pretty well-known fact that the primary purpose of the wakizashi was to commit ritual suicide when need be, not to wield in one's off-hand with a katana in the main-hand. . . .and is no better or worse than the "never, under ANY circumstances shall you let go of these blades" of the OA samurai. I think you should check your references. The OA Samurai cannot lose his daisho or have them destroyed, but it says nothing about them having him on his person at all times. What keeps the CW samurai from being a speed based fighter? He automatically gets improved initative and quick draw as he levels. What keeps him from being a two weapon fighter? He gets all those feats too. What keeps him from being an intimidating one, or one that does focus on two blades? The class gives you a lot of varied abilities, and each one has a connection to samurai culture. If you want to play a very specific type of samurai, you use the fighter class. If you want to play an iconic samurai, you can take the CW class, gain access to all of the abilities and then use your feat selection to customize exactly what you are best with. Or, you could avoid the badly-written caricature in the first place, play the OA Samurai, and then customize your character via feat selection in whichever style (or even no style) that you see fit. It's pretty nonsensical to say that the CW Samurai represents the "iconic samurai" because of the aforementioned feats, since both the Fighter and the OA Samurai can take every one of those feats but are not locked into doing so in a certain order and at certain levels. Laterz.
Deper 06-20-06, 08:27 PM	Says you. The OA Samurai makes a reasonable approximation of the Tokugawa samurai of the Edo period and, to a lesser extent, the Todai samurai of the Heian period. And there are those would argue with that too. But before Tokugawa, anyone could become a samurai, so the fighter class is your best bet to show that. I also find the comment about being locked into "carrying swords" and not being able to perform "the slightest chaotic act" to be entirely nonsensical, as there are guidelines toward variants of the class (in both ancestral weapons and code of conduct) in the book itself. What pages? The only varient I could find was suggesting that you could use two weapons other than a katana and wazashi only outside of the core OA setting. And there is nothing in the book (that I saw) that releases the samurai class from the "breaks bushido if every willingly commits a chaotic act" restriction. The integration of heavy armor and two-weapon fighting, for one thing. The former is a strictly battlefield armament, while the latter is a methodology of peacetime duelists. You will never see a samurai in history or fiction that dons heavy armor and wields two swords. It just doesn't happen. Neither does the existance of magical weapons. It's a fantasy game that gives you a mechanical bonus to represent something. If a samurai is likely to carry two swords, he's going to be able to use it. The CW Samurai's code of "honor" is also Western bullshido gibberish. It has absolutely no resonance with the samurai of history or folklore. It's the exact same bushido listed in OA, except it isn't as strick on the whole "any chaotic act" restriction that the OA version suffers from. Come to think of it, I don't know of many iconic samurai that use their "ki" to "smite" their enemies, either. . . But they are known to scream before hitting a foe really hard in popular culture, and the whole point of the scream is to focus the energy of your strike. So a samurai who focuses himself and then strikes with devistating effect does fit. More than a samurai that prays at a shrine and suddenly has a flaming blade, at least. The iconic samurai carries two swords, he does not fight with two swords. It is a pretty well-known fact that the primary purpose of the wakizashi was to commit ritual suicide when need be, not to wield in one's off-hand with a katana in the main-hand. I pointed out above, it's a fantasy mechanic given so that you aren't lugging around the extra weight just to look cool. I think you should check your references. The OA Samurai cannot lose his daisho or have them destroyed, but it says nothing about them having him on his person at all times. How many adventurers can leave stuff at home and be sure its safe. For the purpose of the game it ensures that the player is forced to carry it around, because his enemies will steal it otherwise. It forces them to carry 8 pounds of gear, whether they want to or not, and he is unlikely to participate in situations where they might be damaged, such as against a rust monster or an enemy who uses sunder. Or, you could avoid the badly-written caricature in the first place, play the OA Samurai, and then customize your character via feat selection in whichever style (or even no style) that you see fit. Naw. If I'm going to play a badly-written caicature, I'd rather be playing an actual fantasy character and not some hodge-podge that pretends to hold some sort of accuracy with a ton of mindless limitations. "I told my lord that his mother threw a good party. I'm a baaaaaaaad samurai. I guess I might as well hock my swords, 'cause they're never going to be any good again." It's pretty nonsensical to say that the CW Samurai represents the "iconic samurai" because of the aforementioned feats, since both the Fighter and the OA Samurai can take every one of those feats but are not locked into doing so in a certain order and at certain levels. Laterz. There's nothing wrong with a locked in progression. It's never hurt the Rogue, druid, sorcerer, bard, barbarian, etc. The CW samurai represents the iconic samurai from popular culutre. The OA samurai represents the one from myths and legends. Neither claimed to be the other. That's why there is room for both classes, as silly as they are. But if you really want to claim you're playing a samurai, play a fighter and take a level of aristocrat for the noble warrior thing. Don't try to claim that ones "more real" than the other.
Ranger REG 06-20-06, 08:58 PM	:noway: No way you can convinced me, dude. I'm not interested in a pop culture samurai, heavily portrayed in even Japanese-produced anime imported into the US. I'm interested in the samurai portrayed in the Kurosawa's films, assuming you kindergartens and Power Rangers fans can handle old vintage B&W films. Or better yet, set foot in Hawaii and watch a year's worth of Taiga Drama and Abarenbo Shogun, and you show me all the iconic "pop culture" samurai.
Deper 06-20-06, 09:19 PM	Actually, I prefer my samurai based on old samurai films, not power rangers. But hey, if thinking that people that don't poo-poo the CW samurai are kindergardeners who like simplistic fair makes you feel superior, go for it. I try not to judge people by the fantasy role-playing classes they do and don't like, but to each their own. And I'm not trying to convince you. Just trying to point out that they're basing it off pop culture and that the liberties they take go no further than those presented by the OA samurai to include its dual swords. Anyway, I've made my point. I'll leave you to insulting those that don't agree with you.
trolloc 06-20-06, 10:41 PM	The only thing i changed about the OA samurai is the Ancestral Daisho ability. Instead of limiting it to just the Katana and Wakizashi, the players can pick any weapon, like a Naginata, as their ancestral weapon.
Hochiu 06-21-06, 12:40 AM	The only thing i changed about the OA samurai is the Ancestral Daisho ability. Instead of limiting it to just the Katana and Wakizashi, the players can pick any weapon, like a Naginata, as their ancestral weapon. That's a house rule for me, anyway.
Nobunaga Oda 06-21-06, 11:55 AM	Deper: You can have your on opinion about everthing. But...What I donīt understand on your argument: You say that the restritions of the OA Samurai are greater that the CW one, but this one forces you to grab some abilities that are useless to some archtypes(Like...fighting with two swords and Staredown.), and forces you follow the bullshido :/...While the only restritions of the OA Samurai is his own "Bullshido" and the ancestral Daisho ability. Could you care to elaborate...?
Celerian 06-21-06, 02:44 PM	And there are those would argue with that too. But before Tokugawa, anyone could become a samurai, so the fighter class is your best bet to show that. Noticed a bit of a straw man in there: the point isn't that the OA Samurai is the best class to represent any given samurai archetype, but that it is a better representation of the samurai than the CW samurai. The fact that the fighter (ranger, rogue, etc.) works better for certain archetypes is sorta irrelevant. The altered code of honor requirements for samurai are in the Rokugan Campaign Setting. It basically puts the emphasis on an honor rating system rather than your alignment (you have to be lawful OR have honor 2+).
yukisanada 06-24-06, 10:51 PM	here you guys want historical accuracy then go to this site http://www.samurai-archives.com/ then all of you western anime learned people can know some of the realistic facts behind the samurai! and yes I do agree with what you were saying Heretic888.
Twiggly the Gnome 06-25-06, 04:25 PM	I have a preference for the OA Samurai because I think it's an overall better class, much more versatile and more distinct from the Fighter class. When it comes to D&D, "historical accuracy" hasn't ever been that important. I've yet to find a reference to one of the twelve peers of Charlemagne summoning a horse out of thin air, and considering their role in Celtic society it's very odd that Bards can't be lawful. Of course I'm not using an "Asian" or "European" setting, I'm running a Eberron game. :) In my game the two largest Samurai traditions are the Valenar and Dhakaani, who respectively use scimitars and spiked chains as their ancestral weapons, which is permitted by the RAW.
heretic888 06-25-06, 04:39 PM	Well, as I have repeatedly said in the past, I am much more concerned with being faithful to the relevant mythology and folklore than I am in "historical accuracy". However, when you lack information about a certain element or detail of the myths, then I feel it's a good idea to look to history as a reference. Of course, that's just my perspective. . . Laterz.
MagusBlack 12-05-06, 11:26 PM	Dont know if anyone is still on this subject but... I say the OA version is better in all factors. Which brings me to problem 2. Once W.O.C. could say that the fighter represented the samurai and knight...now they have crossed the line!!!:headexplo Player's Handbook II put forth the "Knight" class, it has the following benefits: -Highest Hite Dice for any class (d12) -Good Base Attack Bonus -Proficent with all Simple and Martial weapons -Proficent with all armor and shields -Good Will Save -A large number of special defensive and offensive abilities:twitch: Penalties: -Alignment: Lawful Good (easily fixed, just chop off 'good') -Poor skill points (no different for fighters) -Poor Fort and Ref Saves -Code of Conduct (likewise easily fixed, write off the parts of the code that focus on the "Good" alignment") My point ultimatly is that they have put almost no effort in the samurai class but plow-through-the-gates-of-Hell to make this class?! :censored: Who in the right mind would play any samurai if the Knight beats them hands-down in everything. I say that something serious needs to be done, this is an insult to the culture that that which our class-in-need springs from..come to think of it, its an insult to US the players. What are your thoughts?
heretic888 12-06-06, 01:57 PM	What are your thoughts? If its sheer power you're gunning for, the Warblade has all three of them beat.
MagusBlack 12-06-06, 03:12 PM	True but Warblade, Swordsage and Crausader are three unique classes in their own right. What I meant was by comparison of the Knight vs Samurai deal (one in which we once were assured that WOC would not take a side in).
Kalis Atrud 12-06-06, 07:29 PM	I like the Warblade and OA Samurai. I also love swordsage for a more scholarly or skilled Samurai.
heretic888 12-06-06, 09:06 PM	True but Warblade, Swordsage and Crausader are three unique classes in their own right. What I meant was by comparison of the Knight vs Samurai deal (one in which we once were assured that WOC would not take a side in). Well, the problem is that prior to ToB, melee base classes in this game sucked all to hell. It didn't matter which book they came from. I mean, we can quibble about how the Knight is better than the OA Samurai and the OA Samurai is better than the Loser (err, Fighter), but the fact of the matter is that any base class with a spell progression is better than all of them. I sincerely hope WotC retrofits the core melee classes into adept classes sometime in the near future, whether in published material or in an online article. This would "fix" the Fighter, Samurai, and Knight all in one fell swoop. Laterz.
The_Shaman 12-07-06, 07:33 PM	Technically, I always thought the Edo samurai as more of a fighter/duelist, perhaps with a slightly modified Thug (or as I call it, urban fighter) variant class. Add in a level or two of aristocrat, and it'd make for a good approximation. You miss the high will save and magical swords, though - but for a low-magic setting, having two +5 weapons is also a bit weird. Everyone has ancestors, after all :P
Ranger REG 12-08-06, 12:34 AM	The only thing i changed about the OA samurai is the Ancestral Daisho ability. Instead of limiting it to just the Katana and Wakizashi, the players can pick any weapon, like a Naginata, as their ancestral weapon. Read the last paragraph of the Ancestral Daisho description. Don't take the name of the class feature too literally.
Grave_Accomplice 12-14-06, 02:51 AM	OA Samurai is the winner, hands down. It's generic enough to allow player to customize what combat style his PC wish to incorporate, yet different from all the other martial classes that I can accept for such an Asian-themed character. It's a lot closer to the historical archetype without being too precise. Alternatively, I'd recommend the generic Cavalier class in the Cavalier's Handbook from Green Ronin, which include suggestion on choosing weapon of choice (though the suggestive text recommend a Musashi-type character) appropriate for non-European-themed cultures. It is fitting considering that the 1st edition OA Samurai was listed as a cavalier sub-class. The weapon expertise ability (not sure of the name) tends to focus a bit too much on a mounted character. Otherwise, I agree.
Grave_Accomplice 12-14-06, 02:53 AM	Doesn't pretty much everyone regard that class (and a lot of Green Ronin's other classes) as clearly being overpowered? Not overpowered, but they tend to go beyond what the standard D&D compaign is used to. Witches, shamans, and cavaliers work exceptionally well.
Ranger REG 12-14-06, 02:54 AM	The weapon expertise ability (not sure of the name) tends to focus a bit too much on a mounted character. Otherwise, I agree. I'd loosen the "mounted" restriction.
Grave_Accomplice 12-14-06, 02:58 AM	Amen to that. I adapted the Iaijutsu focus Skill to be used by any Combat Focused class in my non-oriental campaigns...And it isnīt anymore about "drawing the sword"; it represents the perfect first attack of the fight, the ability to find a weakeness on your foe.(The action aslo works if you prepare an attack against a enemy and you anounce that you are using the skill.) We converted it to a sniper focus skill for ranged weapons experts, usable beyond 30 ft. Tends to even things up.
Sleepwalker13666 12-18-06, 12:04 AM	I prefer playing the Oriental Samurai when using the Rokugan Adventures exp cost vairant. In my game I have both types of Smaurai, I have renamed the Oriental Adventures Samurai the Traditional Samurai and the complete warrior the Samurai Warrior.
Sleepwalker13666 12-18-06, 12:09 AM	[QUOTE=Of course, now a number of people who want to be a "knight" in game are going to feel that they HAVE to take the Knight class as presented in the PHB II. Same way with a samurai. How many people here have played a "samurai" character without actually belonging to the class (That is, caste station only)? I have.[/QUOTE] I currently have a Saphire Heirarch (Magic of Incarnum) who has the title of Samurai, she was also recently Knighted (with permission from her Lord of course), so now I have to follow chivilry and bushido :eek: :weep:
Ranger REG 12-19-06, 12:03 AM	I prefer playing the Oriental Samurai when using the Rokugan Adventures exp cost vairant. In my game I have both types of Smaurai, I have renamed the Oriental Adventures Samurai the Traditional Samurai and the complete warrior the Samurai Warrior. Or Niten-Bushi.
macronan 12-21-06, 01:35 AM	i'm not sure why you're comparing the merits of a prestige class (CW Samurai) to a base class (OA Samurai), as the prestige class is meant to make a base class better. apples and oranges is what it sounds like to me. my take would be very similar to what sleepwalker has done and incorporate both, especially in campaigns where you have the possibility of gai-jin or gweilo showing up. though they can never become true samurai (OA type) with study they can become close (at least as much as their occidental mindset can allow, thus the CW type). wait...sorry got my classes mixed up...i was thinking of the ronin (or possibly even the sword and fist samurai, not hard to do really in my case). but even with the mix up, my take, i think still applies. but to answer the question....i prefer the CW Samurai, as its a great lead-in to one of my favorite prestige classes, the kensai
Ranger REG 12-21-06, 02:12 AM	i'm not sure why you're comparing the merits of a prestige class (CW Samurai) to a base class (OA Samurai), as the prestige class is meant to make a base class better. apples and oranges is what it sounds like to me. :uh-huh: Are we looking at the same book? Complete Warrior (for 3.5e) has a samurai base class. Sword and Fist (for 3.0e) has a master samurai prestige class. Or did you mistake the Ronin prestige class in CW? Meh. I still prefer the versatility of OA samurai over the Musashi clone. That's like offering a sword-and-board fighter class instead of the existing one. Or offering a paladin that fights only chaotic evil. Or offering a two-weapon ranger.
Azzy 12-21-06, 04:56 PM	Meh. I still prefer the versatility of OA samurai over the Musashi clone. Bad Musashi clone. ;) That's like offering a sword-and-board fighter class instead of the existing one. Or offering a paladin that fights only chaotic evil. Or offering a two-weapon ranger. Personally, I think they should scrap both of the samurai base classes (while they're at it, scrap the swashbuckler and knight, too), and just increase the fighter's skill points per level to 4 + Int modifier and add Balance, Bluff, Diplomacy, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Perform, Profession, Sense Motive, and Tumble to the fighter's skill list. Then, create a feat tree that allows you to do the Ancestral Daisho thing. Blam, there it is!
heretic888 12-26-06, 09:08 AM	Bad Musashi clone. ;) Tell me about it. An Edo Jidai nitojutsu duelist fighting in heavy armor and being forbidden from using "dirty tactics"?? Yeah, right. Personally, I think they should scrap both of the samurai base classes (while they're at it, scrap the swashbuckler and knight, too), and just increase the fighter's skill points per level to 4 + Int modifier and add Balance, Bluff, Diplomacy, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Perform, Profession, Sense Motive, and Tumble to the fighter's skill list. Or, even better, just scrap the Fighter, too, and make the ToB classes core material. ;) Laterz.
Azzy 12-26-06, 05:49 PM	Or, even better, just scrap the Fighter, too, and make the ToB classes core material. ;) Hey, as long as it's balanced with all the other base classes, called "fighter" (for sake of consistency), and is flexible enough to pull off various and divergent warrior concepts (including, but not limited to, the knight, the swashbuckler, the thug, the samurai, etc.), I'd be cool with it. I'm sure that sentence alone is enough to make an English major twitch. :D
thadusthemighty 05-22-07, 07:52 AM	OA samaurai is much better than the CW version hands down though the very best samaurai in my opinion is a warblade.... If find it kinda funny people would debate that something is more "realistic" in a game where people wave their arms around and shoot fireballs from their fingertips or where 20 ton mythical beasts fly effortlessy threw the air. Do these people even get the concept that DnD is a FANTASY role playing game? If you want realism there are plenty of historical sims out there.... I think the major problem that the samurai class suffers from is the same one that plauges the monk class. The authors just arent basing those classes on the right material. Why must both classes be Lawfull for instance? Its fairly cliche and inaccurate to assume that Asian culture is very rigid and highly codified. Besides DnD is a fantasy game. I dont wanna play "historical" samaurai or monks. I wanna play the Samaurai i see in Anime and Magna like Bleach or Kenshi Ronin or the kung fu masters in Hidden Dragon Crouching Tiger or 18 Legendary Weapons of China. I dont want a restricted alignment. i dont wanna be weighted down with lame Westren Sterotypes of the East. I wanna fly around, kick some ass, and do some cool stuff. When will Wotc finally get the messege from all the wushu and anime fans out there........
thadusthemighty 05-22-07, 08:09 AM	SHINOBI - An Oriental Adventures Martial Adept by heretic888 On Thud and Blunder by Poul Anderson Death, Honor, and Loyalty: The Bushidó Ideal by G. Cameron Hurst III Bushidó or Bull? A Medieval Historian’s Perspective on the Imperial Army and the Japanese Warrior Tradition by Karl F. Friday The Historical Foundations of Bushidó by Karl F. Friday The Forgotten Samurai by Stephen Turnbull Samurai and Fair Fights by Ellis Amdur The Japanese Samurai Versus The European Knight by Mohammed Abbasi The Top Eleven Western, Modern Day Common Misconceptions About The Samurai For a more tactial anylasis of Knight Vrs Samurai see http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm The Katana Vrs Rapier fight article is good too (Think Samurai Vrs Swashbuckler) http://www.thearma.org/essays/katanavs.htm