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heretic888 03-22-07, 11:58 PM	SHINOBI http://www.wizards.com/global/images/mtgcom_arcana_732_pic3_en.jpg Higure the Still Wind, human shinobi "I learned from my master that a shinobi's duty is to be enlightened on the laws of nature. There are no battles that do not adhere to these laws. Thus, the warrior who stands against the laws of nature has lost his battle before he even begins to fight. The first priority of the shinobi was to prevail without fighting, and this remains our way." ~Takao Hisatsugu, Headmaster of the Hidden Door The enigmatic spies and saboteurs of the Sublime Way, shinobi are martial adepts who epitomize the warrior ways of alacrity, misdirection, and subterfuge. Trained in locations made secret to all outsiders, they have inherited martial traditions passed down by word of mouth for countless generations, including the mysterious Hidden Door discipline. Shinobi, also commonly known as sublime saboteurs, are not to be taken as mere thugs or bandits. They have sworn an oath of fealty to clan and homeland --- vowing to give their very lives, if necessary, to ensure the protection of their communities. Those that betray this oath suffer severe consequences and may no longer walk the path of shinobi. MAKING A SHINOBI Like the swordsage, a shinobi rarely plays the role of a front-line combatant. Shinobi typically find themselves as the scouts and skirmishers among a party of adventurers, relying on stealth, hit-and-run ambushes, and tactical attrition to win the day. Abilities: Dexterity is the shinobi's primary ability score, followed closely by Wisdom and Charisma. All three of these scores have a number of vital uses for shinobi both in and out of combat, ranging from augmenting Armor Class and certain weapons' attack rolls to enhancing saving throws and several key skill checks. A high Intelligence score is important also, as the extra skill points it provide enable a shinobi to fulfill the role of expert and specialist when needed. Due to their reliance on avoidance and evasion, Constitution is sometimes ignored by shinobi, but a good Constitution score can often mean the difference between life and death to a shinobi frequently found in battle. Strength is probably the least important ability score to most shinobi, although it can increase their damage potential and bolster their effectiveness with certain skills. Races: The majority of shinobi are humans. There are a few elves, half-elves, and spirit folk found among their ranks, and even fewer of the other races. However, as the shinobi's traditions themselves originated among human clans, these individuals almost invariably receive their training in human lands. There are rumors of shinobi clans founded by members of other races that studied under human masters, but these may indeed just be rumors. Alignment: Although a shinobi can be of any alignment, the path he walks often demands discipline, unwavering loyalty, and a willingness to serve the needs of others. As such, chaotic and evil shinobi are very uncommon and their actions are usually looked down upon by their brethren. Because the Hidden Door discipline admonishes balance between extremes and adaptability to changing circumstances, most members of this class lean toward neutral alignments. Starting Gold: 4d4 x 10 gp (100 gp). Starting Age: As monk. Special: For the purposes of feat qualification, a shinobi is considered a swordsage of equal level. TABLE 1: THE SHINOBI HIT DIE: D8 Base Fort Ref Will Level Attack Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st +0 +0 +2 +0 Shinobi path (1st step), trapfinding, veiled weaponry 2nd +1 +0 +3 +0 AC bonus 3rd +2 +1 +3 +1 Shinobi path (2nd step) 4th +3 +1 +4 +1 -- 5th +3 +1 +4 +1 Shinobi path (3rd step) 6th +4 +2 +5 +2 -- 7th +5 +2 +5 +2 Shinobi path (4th step) 8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +2 Adaptive stance 9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +3 Shinobi path (5th step) 10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +3 -- 11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +3 Shinobi path (6th step) 12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 -- 13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Shinobi path (7th step) 14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +4 -- 15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +5 Shinobi path (8th step) 16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Adaptive stance 17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Shinobi path (9th step) 18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +6 -- 19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +6 Shinobi path (10th step) 20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +6 Veiled counterstrike 3/day TABLE 2: THE SHINOBI Maneuvers Maneuvers Stances Level Known Readied Known 1st 4 3 1 2nd 5 3 2 3rd 6 4 2 4th 6 4 2 5th 7 4 2 6th 8 5 3 7th 8 5 3 8th 9 5 3 9th 10 5 3 10th 10 6 3 11th 11 6 4 12th 12 6 4 13th 12 7 4 14th 13 7 4 15th 14 7 4 16th 14 7 4 17th 15 8 5 18th 16 8 5 19th 16 8 5 20th 17 9 5 Class Skills (8 + Int modifier per level, x4 at 1st level): Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nature), Listen, Martial Lore, Move Silently, Open Lock, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope. CLASS FEATURES Compared to swordsages and warblades, shinobi learn from a relatively small number of martial disciplines. However, shinobi differ from other martial adepts in that they strive not only to master the forms and maneuvers of their disciplines, but also to internalize and embody the very principles that make up the essence of these schools. A shinobi of diamond clarity, for example, has taken steps to embody the principle teachings of the Diamond Mind discipline while a shinobi of shrouded midnight has followed suit with the Shadow Hand discipline. There are a few purists to be found among the shinobi clans who focus on mastery of only one school, but the majority adopt a more eclectic approach that draws upon the principles of several disciplines. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: As a shinobi, you are proficient with the following weapons: blowgun, club, dagger, gauntlet, jitte, kama, katana, naginata, nekode, ninja-to, quarterstaff, shikomi-zue, shortbow (normal and composite), shortspear, short sword, shuriken, unarmed strike, and wakizashi. You are also proficient with light armor, but not with shields. Maneuvers: You begin your career with knowledge of four martial maneuvers. The disciplines available to you are Diamond Mind, Hidden Door, Setting Sun, and Shadow Hand. Once you know a maneuver, you must ready it before you can use it (see Maneuvers Readied, below). A maneuver usable by shinobi is considered an extraordinary ability unless otherwise noted in its description. Your maneuvers are not affected by spell resistance, and you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you initiate one. You learn additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown on Table 2: The Shinobi. You must meet a maneuver’s prerequisite to learn it. See Table 3-1 on page 39 of Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords to determine the highest-level maneuvers you can learn. Upon reaching 4th level and at every even-numbered shinobi level after that (6th, 8th, 10th, and so on), you can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one you already know. In effect, you lose the old maneuver in exchange for the new one. You can choose a new maneuver of any level you like, as long you observe your restriction on the highest-level maneuvers you know; you need not replace the old maneuver with a maneuver of the same level. For example, upon reaching 10th level, you could trade in a single 1st-, 2nd-, 3rd-, or 4th-level maneuver for a maneuver of 5th level or lower, as long as you meet the prerequisite of the new maneuver. You can swap only a single maneuver at any given level. Maneuvers Readied: You can ready three of your four maneuvers known at 1st level, and as you advance in level and learn more maneuvers, you are able to ready more, but you must still choose which maneuvers to ready. You ready your maneuvers by training for 5 minutes. The maneuvers you choose remain readied until you decide to train again and change them. You need not sleep or rest for any long period of time to ready your maneuvers; any time you spend 5 minutes in training, you can change your readied maneuvers. You begin an encounter with all your readied maneuvers unexpended, regardless of how many times you might have already used them since you chose them. When you initiate a maneuver, you expend it for the current encounter, so each of your readied maneuvers can be used once per encounter (until you recover them, as described below). Because a shinobi's effectiveness in combat is dependent on his ability to deceive and outmaneuver his opponents, you refresh your maneuvers somewhat differently than other martial adepts. Whenever you attack a target that is flat-footed or otherwise denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, you can recover one expended maneuver with an immediate action. You cannot initiate a maneuver or change your stance while you are recovering your expended maneuver, but you can remain in a stance in which you began your turn. Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one stance from any discipline open to shinobi. At 2nd, 6th, 11th, and 17th level, you can choose additional stances. Unlike maneuvers, stances are not expended, and you do not have to ready them. All the stances you know are available to you at all times, and you can change the stance you currently use as a swift action. A stance is an extraordinary ability unless otherwise stated in the stance description. Unlike with maneuvers, you cannot learn a new stance at higher levels in place of one you already know. AC Bonus: Beginning at 2nd level, you gain a bonus to your Armor Class equal to your Charisma bonus. You lose this bonus if you wear medium or heavy armor, carry a medium or heavy load, or if you use a shield. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when you are flat-footed. However, you lose this bonus when you are immobilized or helpless. This bonus does not stack with the AC bonus gained by the monk and swordsage. Shinobi Path: To the shinobi, study of the Sublime Way goes beyond technical proficiency in the maneuvers of their schools. The forms serve as vehicles to illuminate the formless essence hidden within each of the shinobi's disciplines. As part of this approach, a shinobi who adopts a stance from one of his disciplines also seeks to embody this concealed essence and gains special abilities related to that school's teachings. Such an emphasis on studying the veiled and unseen aspects of the Sublime Way is unique to shinobi philosophy and is what distinguishes them from other martial adepts. At 1st level and every odd-numbered shinobi level thereafter (3rd, 5th, 7th, and so on), you take a step along one of four such paths of study known to shinobi. Each step grants you special abilities whenever you adopt a stance from that path's discipline. As you increase in level and take more steps along the same path, your mastery of the school's principles grows and you acquire more abilities while in one its stances. You may take steps in more than one path, but to reach a higher step in any path you must take all of its lower steps beforehand. As an example, a 3rd level shinobi could take the 1st and 2nd steps along a single path (such as dawn's eclipse) or he might take the 1st step along two different paths (such as diamond clarity and shrouded midnight). At higher levels, it is even possible to take steps among all the shinobi's paths at the cost of specialization in a smaller number of paths. Shinobi paths are described in full detail in the section below. Trapfinding (Ex): A shinobi can use the Search skill to locate traps with a DC higher than 20, and he can use Disable Device to bypass a trap or disarm magic traps. See the rogue class feature, page 50 of the Player's Handbook. Veiled Weaponry: Shinobi are highly skilled in unarmed combat and the use of easily concealed weapons. You gain Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat at 1st level. In addition, you gain the benefit of the Weapon Finesse feat with the dagger, gauntlet, nekode, and unarmed strike. Adaptive Stance (Ex): At 8th level, your mastery of a single discipline's principles allows you to fluidly assume its stances with almost no conscious effort. Choose one of the four shinobi disciplines. Once per round, you may adopt a stance from that school as a free action. At 16th level, you can choose a second discipline to which this ability applies. Veiled Counterstrike (Ex): When you reach 20th level, you can immediately followup a counter with a strike. If you initiate a successful counter maneuver against an opponent, as a free action you can also initiate any strike maneuver against him that you have readied. To initiate a strike in this manner, you must still meet all the conditions for using the maneuver (such as its specified range and target type). Both maneuvers are expended normally. You can use this ability three times per day. Code of Honor: As a shinobi, you have sworn an oath of fealty to your clan and homeland. If you ever deliberately betray this oath, you bring dishonor to yourself and your family. Depending on the severity of your actions, this may result in expulsion from the clan, banishment from the clan's territory, or even execution. In addition, any such betrayal effectively cuts you off from future training in the clan's traditions and you may no longer take levels in the shinobi class (although you retain all your class features). SHINOBI PATHS Each section below details one of the four shinobi paths. Dawn's Eclipse As a shinobi of dawn's eclipse, you have taken steps to embody the principles of the Setting Sun discipline. While you are in a Setting Sun stance and wearing light armor or no armor, you gain the following abilities. 1st Step - Dawn's Shield (Ex): If you move at least 10 feet on your turn, you gain a +1 insight bonus to your Armor Class for 1 round. 2nd Step - Evasion (Ex): You can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If you make a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals damage on a successful save, you instead take no damage. 3rd Step - Dawn's Shield (Ex): Your insight bonus from dawn's shield increases to +2. 4th Step - Dawnstrider (Ex): You can move at your normal speed with no penalty to your Balance and Tumble checks. 5th Step - Dawn's Shield (Ex): Your insight bonus from dawn's shield increases to +3. 6th Step - Improved Evasion (Ex): You gain the benefit of improved evasion. You still take no damage if you make a successful Reflex save against an attack, and even if you fail the Reflex save, you take only half damage from the attack. If you are helpless, you do not gain the benefit of improved evasion. 7th Step - Dawn's Shield (Ex): Your insight bonus from dawn's shield increases to +4. 8th Step - Dawn's Rise (Ex): If you make a successful Reflex save against a harmful attack or effect, you can take an immediate 5-foot step as a free action. Moving in this manner consumes one of your attacks of opportunity in the current round. You cannot move in this manner if you have no attacks of opportunity remaining. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. 9th Step - Dawn's Shield (Ex): Your insight bonus from dawn's shield increases to +5. 10th Step - Dawn's Release (Su): As long as you are not flat-footed, you are considered permanently under the effect of a freedom of movement spell. Diamond Clarity As a shinobi of diamond clarity, you have taken steps to embody the principles of the Diamond Mind discipline. While you are in a Diamond Mind stance and wearing light armor or no armor, you gain the following abilities. 1st Step - Diamond Will (Ex): As long as you are not flat-footed, you gain a +1 insight bonus on your Will saves. 2nd Step - Uncanny Dodge (Ex): You gain the ability to react to danger before your senses would normally allow you to do so. You retain your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if you are caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, you still lose your Dexterity bonus to AC if you are immobilized. See the rogue class feature, page 50 of the Player's Handbook. 3rd Step - Diamond Will (Ex): Your insight bonus from diamond will increases to +2. 4th Step - Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): You can no longer be flanked; you can react to opponents on opposite sides of you as easily as you can react to a single attacker. See the rogue class feature, page 50 of the Player's Handbook. 5th Step - Diamond Will (Ex): Your insight bonus from diamond will increases to +3. 6th Step - Immovable Spirit (Ex): If you succeed on a Will save against an attack that would normally produce a lesser effect on a successful save (such as a spell with a saving throw entry of Will partial), you instead negate the effect. 7th Step - Diamond Will (Ex): Your insight bonus from diamond will increases to +4. 8th Step - Greater Immovable Spirit (Ex): You still suffer no effect if you make a successful Will save against an attack, and even if you fail the Will save, you incur only a partial effect. 9th Step - Diamond Will (Ex): Your insight bonus from diamond will increases to +5. 10th Step - Diamond Sight (Su) As long as you are not flat-footed, you are considered permanently under the effect of a true seeing spell. Shrouded Midnight As a shinobi of shrouded midnight, you have taken steps to embody the principles of the Shadow Hand discipline. While you are in a Shadow Hand stance and wearing light armor or no armor, you gain the following abilities. 1st Step - Opportunity's Edge (Ex): Whenever your target's current hit points are less than 1/2 of its full normal hit points, you gain a +1 insight bonus to your melee attack and damage rolls. 2nd Step - No Trace (Ex): You can add 1/2 your shinobi level to the DC of Survival checks made to track you. 3rd Step - Opportunity's Edge (Ex): Your insight bonus from opportunity's edge increases to +2. 4th Step - Nightstrider (Ex): You can move at your normal speed with no penalty to your Hide and Move Silently checks. 5th Step - Opportunity's Edge (Ex): Your insight bonus from opportunity's edge increases to +3. 6th Step - Camouflage (Ex): As long as you are in a low-light environment, you can use the Hide skill even if you don’t have cover or concealment. 7th Step - Opportunity's Edge (Ex): Your insight bonus from opportunity's edge increases to +4. 8th Step - Hide In Plain Sight (Ex): As long as you are in a low-light environment, you can use the Hide skill even while under observation. 9th Step - Opportunity's Edge (Ex): Your insight bonus from opportunity's edge increases to +5. 10th Step - Shifting Midnight (Su): Oncer per encounter, if an opponent makes a melee or ranged attack against you, as an immediate action you can magically slip between spaces as if using the spell dimension door. Your caster level for this effect is equal to your shinobi level. Truth and Falsehood As a shinobi of truth and falsehood, you have taken steps to embody the principles of the Hidden Door discipline. While you are in a Hidden Door stance and wearing light armor or no armor, you gain the following abilities. 1st Step - Hidden Strike (Ex): Whenever your target is flat-footed or otherwise denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, you gain a +1 insight bonus to your melee attack and damage rolls. 2nd Step - Improved Misdirection (Ex): You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat or to create a diversion to hide as a move action. If you have both this ability and the Improved Feint feat, then you also gain a +4 bonus on Bluff checks made to feint in combat. 3rd Step - Hidden Strike (Ex): Your insight bonus from hidden strike increases to +2. 4th Step - Swift Misdirection (Ex): You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat or to create a diversion to hide as a swift action. 5th Step - Hidden Strike (Ex): Your insight bonus from hidden strike increases to +3. 6th Step - Patient Assault (Ex): Once per encounter, if you choose to delay your initiative count by at least one turn, then any foe becomes flat-footed against your next melee attack. You cannot use this ability if you have the last turn on the initiative count. 7th Step - Hidden Strike (Ex): Your insight bonus from hidden strike increases to +4. 8th Step - Feinting Counter (Ex): If an opponent makes a melee attack against you and misses, you can make a Bluff check to feint him in combat as a free action. Feinting in this manner consumes one of your attacks of opportunity in the current round. You cannot feint in this manner if you have no attacks of opportunity remaining. 9th Step - Hidden Strike (Ex): Your insight bonus from hidden strike increases to +5. 10th Step - Master of Deception (Su): Once per encounter, if an opponent makes a melee attack against you and misses, as an immediate action you can become invisible and create an illusory double of yourself as if using the spell mislead. Your caster level for this effect is equal to your shinobi level.
heretic888 03-22-07, 11:59 PM	NEW FEATS EDGE OF DECEPTION [GENERAL] Your training in the Hidden Door discipline has taught you how to juxtapose deception and reality with even your most fundamental physical movements. Prerequisite: Tumble 1 rank, one Hidden Door maneuver. Benefit: You can use your Tumble skill instead of your Bluff skill to feint an opponent in combat or to create a diversion to hide. Normal: Both feinting an opponent in combat and creating a diversion to hide requires a Bluff check. Special: Edge of Deception can be used in place of Improved Feint to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability. You can take both this feat and Improved Feint. HIDDEN DOOR COUNTER [GENERAL] The teachings of the Hidden Door have given you the means to take advantage of the tactical mistakes and recklessness of your opponents. Prerequisite: One Hidden Door stance. Benefit: If you are in a Hidden Door stance while an opponent attacks you and misses, you gain a +1 bonus to your melee attack and damage rolls against that foe until the end of your next turn. You must remain in a Hidden Door stance to gain the benefit of this feat. VEILED SABOTEUR [TACTICAL] Your mastery of the Hidden Door discipline allows you to strike a foe when and where he leasts expects it and to take advantage of the impatient aggressiveness of others. To recklessly engage you in battle can prove to be a fatal mistake. Prerequisite: Tumble 9 ranks, Hidden Door Counter, base attack bonus +6, two Hidden Door maneuvers. Benefit: The Veiled Saboteur feat enables the use of three tactical options. Opportune Followup: To use this option, you must disarm or knock an opponent prone using a melee attack or a Hidden Door maneuver. On the following round, you gain a +4 bonus to your melee attack and damage rolls against that foe. Patient Counter: To use this option, you must fight defensively, use the total defense action, or use the Combat Expertise feat to gain a +3 bonus to AC in return for a -3 penalty on attack rolls. You must also wield nothing but a single preferred weapon of the Hidden Door discipline and move no more than 5 feet on your turn. Any opponent who attacks you and misses is considered flat-footed against all your melee attacks during the following round. Vanishing Blade: To use this option, you must deal damage to an opponent with a melee attack and move at least 10 feet during your turn. On your next turn, you can make a DC 20 Hide check to gain total concealment against that foe for 1 round.
heretic888 03-23-07, 12:00 AM	HIDDEN DOOR The Hidden Door discipline teaches its initiates to use evasive movements and tactical adaptability to escape from danger unharmed. The maneuvers of this discipline are largely reactive in nature, focusing on countering an opponent's attacks and hindering his ability to continue fighting. Hidden Door's preferred weapons are the chain, nekode, ninja-to, quarterstaff, and unarmed strike. Its key skill is Tumble. 1ST LEVEL Cat’s Eyes: Stance – Gain darkvision 30 ft., +1 bonus on Spot checks. Concealed Defense: Counter - Foe who misses is flat-footed, +1d6 damage next attack with Tumble check. Flowing Strike: Strike - Deal normal damage plus Cha bonus. Under the Blade: Stance - Gain concealment when flanked. 2ND LEVEL Acrobatic Dodge: Counter - Gain dodge bonus based on Tumble ranks. Empty Handed: Counter - Foe who misses is disarmed with Tumble check. Shifting Blow: Strike - Deal +2d6 damage, knock foe prone. 3RD LEVEL Hidden Opening: Counter - Foe who misses provoked attack is flat-footed, +3d6 damage next attack with Tumble check. Keen Assault: Stance - Foes are flat-footed, +1d6 damage on your critical hits. Opportune Disarm: Counter - Foe who misses provoked attack is disarmed with Tumble check. Weapon Throw: Strike - Thrown weapon deals +3d6 damage. 4TH LEVEL Deceptive Counter: Counter - Force foe to reroll attack with -2 penalty. Hidden Defense: Counter - Foe who misses is flat-footed, +4d6 damage next attack with Tumble check. Stunning Blow: Strike - Deal +4d6 damage, stun foe for 1d4 rounds. 5TH LEVEL Moving Target: Stance - Gain Cha bonus on Tumble checks to avoid attacks of opportunity. Strike of Subtlety: Strike - Deal normal damage plus 4 times Cha bonus. Sublime Dodge: Counter - Gain dodge bonus equal to one-half initiator level. 6TH LEVEL Greater Weapon Throw: Strike - Thrown weapon deals +6d6 damage. Moment of Opportunity: Counter - Foe who misses provoked attack is flat-footed, +6d6 damage next attack with Tumble check. Springing Assault: Strike - Attack foes as you move by them. 7TH LEVEL Enduring Veil: Stance - Missed attacks against you provoke attacks of opportunity. Veiled Strike: Strike - Deal +7d6 damage, blind foe for 1d4 rounds. 8TH LEVEL Body and Weapon are One: Strike - Deal normal damage plus 6 times Cha bonus. Vanishing Step: Counter - Gain total concealment for a time. Veiled Defense: Counter - Foe who misses is flat-footed, +8d6 damage next attack with Tumble check. 9TH LEVEL Veiled Assault: Strike - Deal +9d6 damage, stun foes for 1 round as you move by them. ACROBATIC DODGE Hidden Door (Counter) Level: Shinobi 2 Prerequisite: One Hidden Door maneuver Initiation Action: 1 immediate action Range: Personal Target: You For every 4 ranks you have in Tumble, you gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC against a single attack. For example, if you have 13 ranks in Tumble you could initiate this maneuver to gain a +3 dodge bonus against a single attack. You can choose to use this maneuver after an opponent resolves his attack but before he determines damage. BODY AND WEAPON ARE ONE Hidden Door (Strike) Level: Shinobi 8 Prerequisite: Three Hidden Door maneuvers Initiation Action: 1 standard action Range: Melee attack Target: One creature As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack against an opponent. This attack deals normal damage plus 6 times your Charisma bonus. CAT’S EYES Hidden Door (Stance) Level: Shinobi 1 Initiation Action: 1 swift action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: Stance As long as you are in this stance, you gain darkvision out to 30 feet and a +1 insight bonus on Spot checks. CONCEALED DEFENSE Hidden Door (Counter) Level: Shinobi 1 Initiation Action: 1 immediate action Range: Personal Target: You If your opponent attacks you on his turn and misses, you can initiate this counter as an immediate action. As part of this maneuver, you must make a Tumble check opposed by your opponent's attack roll. If your Tumble check succeeds, your opponent becomes flat-footed against your next melee attack and that attack deals an extra 1d6 points of damage. This attack must take place before or on your next turn to gain the benefit of this maneuver. You must be aware of the attack to which you will apply the effect of this maneuver. If you are flat-footed against the incoming attack, you cannot use this maneuver. DECEPTIVE COUNTER Hidden Door (Counter) Level: Shinobi 4 Prerequisite: Two Hidden Door maneuvers Initiation Action: 1 immediate action Range: Personal Target: You If you are hit by a melee attack, you may initiate this counter an an immediate action. Your opponent must reroll his attack roll with a -2 penalty. You can choose to use this maneuver after an opponent resolves his attack but before he determines damage. EMPTY HANDED Hidden Door (Counter) Level: Shinobi 2 Prerequisite: One Hidden Door maneuver Initiation Action: 1 immediate action Range: Personal Target: You If your opponent attacks you on his turn and misses, you can initiate this counter as an immediate action. As part of this maneuver, you must make a Tumble check opposed by your opponent's attack roll. If your Tumble check succeeds, you automatically disarm your opponent. You must be aware of the attack to which you will apply the effect of this maneuver. If you are flat-footed against the incoming attack, you cannot use this maneuver. ENDURING VEIL Hidden Door (Stance) Level: Shinobi 7 Prerequisite: Three Hidden Door maneuvers Initiation Action: 1 swift action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: Stance While you are in this stance, any opponent you threaten who makes a melee attack against you and misses provokes an attack of opportunity from you. You must be aware of the attack to apply the effect of this stance. If you are flat-footed against the incoming attack, your opponent does not provoke an attack of opportunity from you. FLOWING STRIKE Hidden Door (Strike) Level: Shinobi 1 Initiation Action: 1 standard action Range: Melee attack Target: One creature As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack against an opponent. This attack deals normal damage plus your Charisma bonus. GREATER WEAPON THROW Hidden Door (Strike) Level: Shinobi 6 Prerequisite: Two Hidden Door maneuvers Initiation Action: 1 standard action Range: 30 ft. Target: One creature When you use this strike, you make a single ranged attack roll to hit your opponent with a thrown weapon (including a thrown melee weapon). You deal normal damage with the thrown weapon plus an additional 6d6 points of damage. HIDDEN DEFENSE Hidden Door (Counter) Level: Shinobi 4 Prerequisite: Two Hidden Door maneuvers Initiation Action: 1 immediate action Range: Personal Target: You If your opponent attacks you on his turn and misses, you can initiate this counter as an immediate action. As part of this maneuver, you must make a Tumble check opposed by your opponent's attack roll. If your Tumble check succeeds, your opponent becomes flat-footed against your next melee attack and that attack deals an extra 4d6 points of damage. This attack must take place before or on your next turn to gain the benefit of this maneuver. You must be aware of the attack to which you will apply the effect of this maneuver. If you are flat-footed against the incoming attack, you cannot use this maneuver. HIDDEN OPENING Hidden Door (Counter) Level: Shinobi 3 Prerequisite: One Hidden Door maneuver Initiation Action: 1 immediate action Range: Personal Target: You If you provoke an attack of opportunity from an opponent and he misses, you may initiate this counter as an immediate action. As part of this maneuver, you must make a Tumble check opposed by your opponent's attack roll. If your Tumble check succeeds, your opponent becomes flat-footed against your next melee attack and that attack deals an extra 3d6 points of damage. This attack must take place before or on your next turn to gain the benefit of this maneuver. You must be aware of the attack to which you will apply the effect of this maneuver. If you are flat-footed against the incoming attack, you cannot use this maneuver. KEEN ASSAULT Hidden Door (Stance) Level: Shinobi 3 Prerequisite: One Hidden Door maneuver Initiation Action: 1 swift action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: Stance While you are in this stance, your opponents are flat-footed against your critical hits and such attacks deal an extra 1d6 points of damage. MOMENT OF OPPORTUNITY Hidden Door (Counter) Level: Shinobi 6 Prerequisite: Two Hidden Door maneuvers Initiation Action: 1 immediate action Range: Personal Target: You If you provoke an attack of opportunity from an opponent and he misses, you may initiate this counter as an immediate action. As part of this maneuver, you must make a Tumble check opposed by your opponent's attack roll. If your Tumble check succeeds, your opponent becomes flat-footed against your next melee attack and that attack deals an extra 6d6 points of damage. This attack must take place before or on your next turn to gain the benefit of this maneuver. You must be aware of the attack to which you will apply the effect of this maneuver. If you are flat-footed against the incoming attack, you cannot use this maneuver. MOVING TARGET Hidden Door (Stance) Level: Shinobi 5 Prerequisite: Two Hidden Door maneuvers Initiation Action: 1 swift action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: Stance While you are in this stance, you add your Charisma bonus to Tumble checks made to move through an area occupied by an enemy without provoking attacks of opportunity. In addition, you ignore the standard penalties to your Tumble checks for moving at your full speed. OPPORTUNE DISARM Hidden Door (Counter) Level: Shinobi 3 Prerequisite: One Hidden Door maneuver Initiation Action: 1 immediate action Range: Personal Target: You If you provoke an attack of opportunity from an opponent and he misses, you can initiate this counter as an immediate action. As part of this maneuver, you must make a Tumble check opposed by your opponent's attack roll. If your Tumble check succeeds, you automatically disarm your opponent. You must be aware of the attack to which you will apply the effect of this maneuver. If you are flat-footed against the incoming attack, you cannot use this maneuver. SHIFTING BLOW Hidden Door (Strike) Level: Shinobi 2 Prerequisite: One Hidden Door maneuver Initiation Action: 1 standard action Range: Melee attack Target: One creature Saving Throw: Reflex partial As part of this maneuver, make a single melee attack against an opponent. If your attack hits, you deal normal melee damage plus an extra 2d6 points of damage and your opponent is knocked prone. With a successful Reflex save (DC 12 + your Dex modifier), your opponent is not knocked prone but still takes the extra damage. SPRINGING ASSAULT Hidden Door (Strike) Level: Shinobi 6 Prerequisite: Two Hidden Door maneuvers Initiation Action: 1 full-round action Range: Melee attack Target: See text As part of this maneuver, you move up to your speed. Each time you exit a square adjacent to an opponent, you can make a single melee attack against him. You cannot attack a single opponent more than once with this maneuver. Your movement provokes attacks of opportunity, as normal. STRIKE OF SUBTLETY Hidden Door (Strike) Level: Shinobi 5 Prerequisite: Two Hidden Door maneuvers Initiation Action: 1 standard action Range: Melee attack Target: One creature As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack against an opponent. This attack deals normal damage plus 4 times your Charisma bonus. STUNNING BLOW Hidden Door (Strike) Level: Shinobi 4 Prerequisite: Two Hidden Door maneuvers Initiation Action: 1 standard action Range: Melee attack Target: One creature Duration: 1d4 rounds Saving Throw: Fortitude partial As part of this maneuver, make a single melee attack against an opponent. If your attack hits, you deal normal melee damage plus an extra 4d6 points of damage and your opponent is stunned for 1d4 rounds. With a successful Fortitude save (DC 14 + your Dex modifier), your opponent is not stunned but still takes the extra damage. SUBLIME DODGE Hidden Door (Counter) Level: Shinobi 5 Prerequisite: Two Hidden Door maneuvers Initiation Action: 1 immediate action Range: Personal Target: You You gain a dodge bonus to AC equal to one-half your initiator level (rounded down) against a single attack. You can choose to use this maneuver after an opponent resolves his attack but before he determines damage. UNDER THE BLADE Hidden Door (Stance) Level: Shinobi 1 Initiation Action: 1 swift action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: Stance If you are being flanked while in this stance, you gain concealment against all melee and ranged attacks. You also gain the standard benefits of concealment, but you cannot use this stance to hide in plain sight; you must still use some other terrain feature that normally allows you to use the Hide skill. VANISHING STEP Hidden Door (Counter) Level: Shinobi 8 Prerequisite: Three Hidden Door maneuvers Initiation Action: 1 immediate action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: See text If an opponent makes a melee or ranged attack against you, you can initiate this counter as an immediate action. You gain total concealment until you make an attack or until the encounter ends, whichever comes first. You can choose to use this maneuver after an opponent resolves his attack but before he determines damage. VEILED ASSAULT Hidden Door (Strike) Level: Shinobi 9 Prerequisite: Five Hidden Door maneuvers Initiation Action: 1 full-round action Range: Melee attack Target: See text Duration: 1 round As part of this maneuver, you move up to double your speed. Each time you exit a square adjacent to an opponent, you can make a single melee attack against him. Your opponent is considered flat-footed against this attack. If your attack hits, you deal normal melee damage plus an extra 9d6 points of damage and your opponent is stunned for 1 round. You cannot attack a single opponent more than once with this maneuver. Your movement provokes attacks of opportunity, as normal. VEILED DEFENSE Hidden Door (Counter) Level: Shinobi 8 Prerequisite: Three Hidden Door maneuvers Initiation Action: 1 immediate action Range: Personal Target: You If your opponent attacks you on his turn and misses, you can initiate this counter as an immediate action. As part of this maneuver, you must make a Tumble check opposed by your opponent's attack roll. If your Tumble check succeeds, your opponent becomes flat-footed against your next melee attack and that attack deals an extra 8d6 points of damage. This attack must take place before or on your next turn to gain the benefit of this maneuver. You must be aware of the attack to which you will apply the effect of this maneuver. If you are flat-footed against the incoming attack, you cannot use this maneuver. VEILED STRIKE Hidden Door (Strike) Level: Shinobi 7 Prerequisite: Three Hidden Door maneuvers Initiation Action: 1 standard action Range: Melee attack Target: One creature Duration: 1d4 rounds Saving Throw: Fortitude partial As part of this maneuver, make a single melee attack against an opponent. If your attack hits, you deal normal melee damage plus an extra 7d6 points of damage and your opponent is blinded for 1d4 rounds. With a successful Fortitude save (DC 17 + your Dex modifier), your opponent is not blinded but still takes the extra damage. WEAPON THROW Hidden Door (Strike) Level: Shinobi 3 Prerequisite: One Hidden Door maneuver Initiation Action: 1 standard action Range: 30 ft. Target: One creature When you use this strike, you make a single ranged attack roll to hit your opponent with a thrown weapon (including a thrown melee weapon). You deal normal damage with the thrown weapon plus an additional 3d6 points of damage.
heretic888 03-23-07, 12:01 AM	EDIT LOG: 3-22-07 Posted first draft of class. 3-28-07 A new entry entitled 'Special' was added. The shinobi's maneuver recovery method has been modified for balance and uniqueness. Hidden strike no longer applies to flanked opponents and it counts as a sneak attack of equal die for feat/prestige class qualification. It also stacks with sneak attack. Dancing shadow, vanishing mist, vanishing wind, and vanishing shadow have had their number of daily uses reduced to one-half the shinobi's Wisdom bonus. 3-30-07 Dancing shadow, vanishing mist, vanishing wind, and vanishing shadow have had their number of daily uses increased to the shinobi's full Wisdom bonus (again). 7-13-07 I finally added some flavor text, as well as rewording some of the existing flavor text. The base attack bonus was lowered to 3/4 progression. The progression of maneuvers known, maneuvers readied, and stances known was increased to halfway between that of a warblade and swordsage. Shadow Hand is now among the shinobi's disciplines. The shinobi's recovery mechanic has been changed. The 'way of deception' has been changed to 'way of misdirection' and the 'way of movement' has been changed to 'way of celerity'. Several abilities under way of the shinobi have been removed, added, or modified. 2-1-08 Rewrote some of the flavor text. Reduced the class progressions for maneuvers known and maneuvers readied so that you end up with 17 and 9 at 20th level, respectively. Reworded the text for stances so that a 1st level shinobi is not restricted to 1st level stances (such as in the case of multiclassing). Completely revamped the way of the shinobi class abilities. They are now keyed to specific disciplines (dawn's eclipse, diamond clarity, shrouded midnight, truth and falsehood) and the majority of abilities only work if you are in a stance from that discipline. Posted a very rough draft of the Hidden Door discipline. More maneuvers to be added very soon. 2-2-08 Revised superior misdirection so that it can only be used once per round. 2-8-08 The Hidden Door discipline has been updated and is basically finished. 2-12-08 Lowered the progression of maneuvers readied for the Shinobi class. They still end up with 9 maneuvers readied at 20th level, but begin with 3 maneuvers readied at 1st level now. Modified the Cat's Eyes, Under the Blade, Keen Assault, and Vanishing Step maneuvers for the Hidden Door discipline. Most of these changes were minor upgrades or textual clarifications. Added the Edge of Deception, Hidden Door Dodge, and Veiled Saboteur feats to the new feats section. 2-14-08 Clarified and expanded upon the text for way of the shinobi and the four paths. Hidden Door Dodge has been removed from the new feats section and replaced by Hidden Door Counter. 2-15-08 Wrote up further expansion and clarification for way of the shinobi and the four paths. Adaptive Path has been added to the new feats section. 3-30-08 Edited introductory text as well as the text for the abilities, races, alignment, and special entries for the shinobi. Shinobi no longer have an alignment restriction. Disable Device, Intimidate, Open Lock, and Search have been added to the shinobi's class skills. The shinobi's skill points per level have been increased to 8 + Int modifier. The shinobi's Will save progression has been reduced to low. The progression for the shinobi path class feature is now every odd-numbered level (1st, 3rd, 5th, and so on). The abilities of the shinobi paths have been largely changed and many now depend on your Charisma modifier. Shinobi gain trapfinding at 1st level. Veiled weaponry has replaced unarmed strike as one of the shinobi's 1st level class features. Shinobi now gain the AC bonus at 2nd level, like the swordsage. Shinobi now gain adaptive path at 8th and 16th level. Adaptive path is no longer a feat. Shinobi now gain a new capstone ability, veiled counterstrike, at 20th level. The code of conduct entry has been renamed to code of honor and its text has been edited to reflect loss of alignment restriction. The shinobi paths now have their own section below the main class section. The Veiled Saboteur feat now has Hidden Door Dodge as a prerequisite instead of Edge of Deception. The weapon text for the patient counter tactical option has been edited slightly. 4-20-08 The visual layout of the class (including the two tables) has been significantly altered so that it is more concise and user friendly. Chain, kaginawa, and kusarigama have been removed from the shinobi's weapon proficiencies. Blowgun, jitte, naginata, composite shortbow, and short sword have been added to the shinobi's weapon proficiencies. It now costs an immediate action for shinobi to recover an expended maneuver and they may not initiate a maneuver nor change their stance while doing so. The shinobi's AC bonus is now keyed to Charisma instead of Wisdom. This was done to reduce the class dependency on Wisdom, as well as to further distinguish it from the swordsage. Dawn's shield, diamond will, opportunity's edge, and hidden strike are no longer capped by your Charisma bonus. In addition, opportunity's edge and hidden strike no longer have weapon prerequisites for their use. Dawn's shield now grants an AC bonus against all attacks instead of just attacks of opportunity. Adaptive path has been removed and replaced with adaptive stance at 8th and 16th level. The save DCs for the shifting blow, stunning blow, and veiled strike maneuvers are now keyed to Dexterity instead of Wisdom. The bonus damage for the flowing strike, strike of subtlety, and body and weapon are one maneuvers is now keyed to Charisma instead of Wisdom. In addition, the damage multipliers for strike of subtlety and body and weapon are one have been increased to reflect appropriate numbers for their respective levels. The bonus from the moving target stance is now keyed to Charisma instead of Wisdom. In addition, this stance now allows you to ignore the associated penalties for accelerated tumbling.
heretic888 03-23-07, 12:02 AM	Well, guys, this is it: the Sublime Way Shinobi --- or, at least the first draft of it, anyway. Seeing as my original shinobi thread on the OA forum has disappeared into the ether that is the archives, I decided to start from scratch and make a new thread here for this class. A link to this thread has been added to the first line of my signature for easy access, as well. Obviously, this project is ongoing. I have at least two Way of the Shinobi paths and two new feats brainstorming as we speak, as well as the shinobi-restricted Hidden Door discipline tottering along. To pique your interest as to the Hidden Door itself, its shaping up to be a mostly mundane (re: no supernatural) school with Bluff as its key skill. Suffice to say, this whole enterprise is still under construction. As always, I'll take all the constructive criticism I can get. This is just a first draft, after all. I should go ahead and point out, however, that my measuring stick for my shinobi class is the warblade from Tome of Battle. I consider core melee to be unbalanced and underpowered, with ToB a considerable step in the right direction. As such, I have tried to balance my class against the three base classes in ToB. As an aside, if things go well with this project I have plans to re-write the OA samurai into a martial adept class, as well, with a similar design as the shinobi. I'd like to thank everyone in advance for any and all suggestions and feedback. Laterz.
Darth Sephiroth 03-23-07, 12:18 AM	Where can I find the hidden door discipline?
narukagami 03-23-07, 12:26 AM	Where can I find the hidden door discipline? Here, in time. Patience, grasshopper.
Darth Sephiroth 03-23-07, 12:43 AM	Ok, I'd figured it was one of the ones on the Class boards.
heretic888 03-23-07, 08:25 AM	Where can I find the hidden door discipline? Post 3 is reserved for the Hidden Door discipline, Darth Sephiroth.
Crashy75 03-23-07, 12:46 PM	This looks great!!!! I'm especially fond of the Way of the shinobi abilities. I wouldn't mind seeing an option for chaotic and/or evil shinobi. Perhaps evil/chaotic shinobi could have access to shadow hand instead of open door? And speaking of which, why doesn't he have access to shadow hand? When I think shinobi, I think ninja. I have to admit that I'm not very familiar with such things; the only 'experience' I have with a 'shinobi' comes from the video game. The video game from the 90's. It even had invisibility and teleportation. And of course, the only thing I know about the Ninja comes from cinema- and I seem to remember evil ninja if not chaotic.
Magocrat 03-23-07, 12:57 PM	Erm, I must apologize, heretic888, but I can't seem to find anything inherently wrong with this character class. The class features are flawless, and you have an innovative way of handling the class features other than the maneuvers themselves. However, for the way of deception, I think that the ability to use Tumble instead of Bluff to feint wouldn't be too much out there to warrant a place in that way. But that's just a suggestion. Anyway, this must be one of the most innovative and well-designed character classes that I have seen in a long time. Congratulations. Oh, wait. I think I've just come up with something that could be seen as a flaw; there are nine dead levels. However, your character class looks well-balanced as it is, so I don't think that it specifically needs something in those levels.
narukagami 03-23-07, 01:10 PM	This looks great!!!! I'm especially fond of the Way of the shinobi abilities. I wouldn't mind seeing an option for chaotic and/or evil shinobi. Perhaps evil/chaotic shinobi could have access to shadow hand instead of open door? And speaking of which, why doesn't he have access to shadow hand? When I think shinobi, I think ninja. I have to admit that I'm not very familiar with such things; the only 'experience' I have with a 'shinobi' comes from the video game. The video game from the 90's. It even had invisibility and teleportation. And of course, the only thing I know about the Ninja comes from cinema- and I seem to remember evil ninja if not chaotic. Heretic usually strives to make shinobi that break away from pop culture and strives for something much more similar to their historical counterpart. Thus, I'm certain thats why he left out Shadow Hand and why they can't be chaotic/evil. Personally, I do plan to houserule them having access to Shadow Hand because my setting is on the more "fantastical" side of the spectrum. Oh, wait. I think I've just come up with something that could be seen as a flaw; there are nine dead levels. However, your character class looks well-balanced as it is, so I don't think that it specifically needs something in those levels. If you notice the maneuver chart, those levels are the ones where they gain new maneuvers, so they're not really dead levels at all.
Crashy75 03-23-07, 05:34 PM	Heretic usually strives to make shinobi that break away from pop culture and strives for something much more similar to their historical counterpart. Thus, I'm certain thats why he left out Shadow Hand and why they can't be chaotic/evil. Personally, I do plan to houserule them having access to Shadow Hand because my setting is on the more "fantastical" side of the spectrum. Excellent! I assume that means Hidden Door will be non-supernatural. I don't have much use for most of the supernatural maneuvers. Honestly, I wish they were a little subtler. If you notice the maneuver chart, those levels are the ones where they gain new maneuvers, so they're not really dead levels at all. Well, they get an additional maneuver known (which will be 1 level higher than any before- and one additional readied at 15th) which is good. The warblade gets about the same though he seems to get quite a few special abilities on his odd levels. I'm thinking that's because spells are still better than equiv level maneuvers. The shinobi seems to be more evened out. I'm glad this class doesn't have anything similar to the wb's 8th level where he just gets to exchange a single maneuver (which will be a trade up at least). And that's much better than the fighters dead levels. *Wince*
Kazeofwinds 03-23-07, 05:43 PM	I was going to ask why no shadow hand, but that's already been adressed I suppose. Wouldnt it be simpler to state that the precision damage from the first path is functionally identical/is sneak attack....It looks like it is to me anyways, unless I'm missing something. That being the case, I assume it would stack normally with sneak attack and similar abilities? Also, looking foreward to seeing what hidden door looks like.
The_Shaman 03-23-07, 11:50 PM	Pity, I'd have thought a few shadow hand abilities (shadow jumps, stances, etc) would look good on that. Does the Hidden Door use some Shadow hand Disciplines, at least?
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-24-07, 01:21 PM	Heretic usually strives to make shinobi that break away from pop culture and strives for something much more similar to their historical counterpart. Thus, I'm certain thats why he left out Shadow Hand and why they can't be chaotic/evil. Personally, I don't see how that justifies an alignment restriction. Shinobi, unless I'm horribly mistaken, were human beings. As such they should be just as varied in personality as, say, modern day soldiers, or bakers. If they strive for harmony and balance, yet can still be Lawful Good, then I'm of the opinion that they can be Chaotic Evil, too. After all, isn't there balance in nothingness (which is pretty much what the Chaotic Evil alignment results in)?
RavenShinobi 03-24-07, 03:28 PM	i am very excited to see how this Shinobi turns out.
Nexis 03-24-07, 04:57 PM	I really like the class, but the alignment restrictions seem really out of place. The Race Description also seem kind of weird, I get that humans are the most common, but why would that stop non-humans from joining a party?
The_Shaman 03-24-07, 08:37 PM	Personally, I don't see how that justifies an alignment restriction. Shinobi, unless I'm horribly mistaken, were human beings. As such they should be just as varied in personality as, say, modern day soldiers, or bakers. If they strive for harmony and balance, yet can still be Lawful Good, then I'm of the opinion that they can be Chaotic Evil, too. After all, isn't there balance in nothingness (which is pretty much what the Chaotic Evil alignment results in)? Heretic seems to have the same requirements as for his original "ninja"esque class. I'm not quite sure why he doesn't accept other alignments, but it's his call.
RavenShinobi 03-24-07, 09:21 PM	Heretic seems to have the same requirements as for his original "ninja"esque class. I'm not quite sure why he doesn't accept other alignments, but it's his call. I was also wondering about this as well...:confused:
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-24-07, 10:19 PM	My point is that Heretic seems to be dealing with Western stereotyping in the worst possible way: More stereotyping. Mechanically, I have no gripe with the class outside of its lack of access to Shadow Hand. Even if real life Ninja didn't use magic (as far as we know :P), I could see fantastical ones using it. I could very well consider taking it outside of these two facts, and I'd be more than willing to help with this class.
heretic888 03-24-07, 10:41 PM	This looks great!!!! I'm especially fond of the Way of the shinobi abilities. Thanks. :) I wouldn't mind seeing an option for chaotic and/or evil shinobi. Perhaps evil/chaotic shinobi could have access to shadow hand instead of open door? And speaking of which, why doesn't he have access to shadow hand? Both the alignment restrictions and the available disciplines reflect the flavor and philosophical outlook of the class. If you wish to houserule these away in your own games, feel free to do so. But, they won't be appearing as part of the official class write-up. When I think shinobi, I think ninja. As an aside, 'ninja' and 'shinobi-no-mono' are just different pronunciations of the same kanji. ;) I have to admit that I'm not very familiar with such things; the only 'experience' I have with a 'shinobi' comes from the video game. The video game from the 90's. It even had invisibility and teleportation. A teleportation ability is available via the Way of Movement path and an invisibility ability is available via the Way of Stealth path. And of course, the only thing I know about the Ninja comes from cinema- and I seem to remember evil ninja if not chaotic. Well, the inspiration for this class does not come from cinema. ;)
heretic888 03-24-07, 10:44 PM	Erm, I must apologize, heretic888, but I can't seem to find anything inherently wrong with this character class. The class features are flawless, and you have an innovative way of handling the class features other than the maneuvers themselves. However, for the way of deception, I think that the ability to use Tumble instead of Bluff to feint wouldn't be too much out there to warrant a place in that way. But that's just a suggestion. Anyway, this must be one of the most innovative and well-designed character classes that I have seen in a long time. Congratulations. Thanks for the kind words. :D Oh, wait. I think I've just come up with something that could be seen as a flaw; there are nine dead levels. However, your character class looks well-balanced as it is, so I don't think that it specifically needs something in those levels. Well, as somebody else already pointed out, those aren't really "dead" levels at all. ;)
heretic888 03-24-07, 10:48 PM	Heretic usually strives to make shinobi that break away from pop culture and strives for something much more similar to their historical counterpart. Thus, I'm certain thats why he left out Shadow Hand and why they can't be chaotic/evil. Personally, I do plan to houserule them having access to Shadow Hand because my setting is on the more "fantastical" side of the spectrum. Well, yeah, there's that ---- but, the real reason is that I don't believe Shadow Hand fits the flavor and philosophical approach that the class embodies. Harnessing the "fel energies of cold and shadow" strikes me as spectacularly un-shinobi. ;) I really don't have a problem with the realism vs fantasy side of things. You will note that I included an invisibility and teleportation ability as part of the higher-end class features.
heretic888 03-24-07, 10:51 PM	Excellent! I assume that means Hidden Door will be non-supernatural. I don't have much use for most of the supernatural maneuvers. Honestly, I wish they were a little subtler. Yes, Hidden Door will be a mostly (if not entirely) mundane discipline with Bluff as its key skill. I may throw in a few supernatural abilities if they are thematically appropriate, though.
heretic888 03-24-07, 10:52 PM	Wouldnt it be simpler to state that the precision damage from the first path is functionally identical/is sneak attack....It looks like it is to me anyways, unless I'm missing something. That being the case, I assume it would stack normally with sneak attack and similar abilities? You bring up an excellent point. I will probably just rename the class feature 'sneak attack' to avoid any confusion, because it does stack with sneak attack from other sources.
heretic888 03-24-07, 10:55 PM	Pity, I'd have thought a few shadow hand abilities (shadow jumps, stances, etc) would look good on that. Does the Hidden Door use some Shadow hand Disciplines, at least? It may end up looking a lot like Shadow Hand. I haven't written the discipline up yet, so I can't really say for sure. :D I should also reiterate that the Way of Movement path grants a teleportation ability and the Way of Stealth path grants an invisibility ability. So, its not as if the shinobi is completely devoid of these sorts of things.
heretic888 03-24-07, 11:00 PM	Personally, I don't see how that justifies an alignment restriction. Shinobi, unless I'm horribly mistaken, were human beings. As such they should be just as varied in personality as, say, modern day soldiers, or bakers. Shinobi are human beings bound by a code of conduct. This code of conduct is part of their training, it is not something tacked on as an afterthought. If they happen to break this code of conduct, other shinobi will likely do bad things to them. ;) If they strive for harmony and balance, yet can still be Lawful Good, then I'm of the opinion that they can be Chaotic Evil, too. After all, isn't there balance in nothingness (which is pretty much what the Chaotic Evil alignment results in)? "Nothingness", in the sense that a shinobi would strive for, is embodied by True Neutral.
heretic888 03-24-07, 11:02 PM	I really like the class, but the alignment restrictions seem really out of place. The Race Description also seem kind of weird, I get that humans are the most common, but why would that stop non-humans from joining a party? I never said non-human shinobi couldn't join adventuring parties, I said that they were not as likely to do so.
heretic888 03-24-07, 11:15 PM	My point is that Heretic seems to be dealing with Western stereotyping in the worst possible way: More stereotyping. Not at all. A poem attributed to Momochi Sandayu probably sums up the situation best: Ninjutsu is not something which should be used for personal desires. It is something which should be used when no other choice is available, for the sake of one’s country, for the sake of one’s lord, or to escape personal danger. If one deliberately uses it for the sake of personal desires, the techniques will fail totally. Similar thoughts are repeated in Fujibayashi Yasuyoshi's Bansenshukai, as well. The whole point being that if a shinobi doesn't have the "right heart" (shoshin), what he's doing ain't gonna work. Mechanically, I have no gripe with the class outside of its lack of access to Shadow Hand. Even if real life Ninja didn't use magic (as far as we know :P), I could see fantastical ones using it. As I said before, its not the "magic" (i.e, lack of realism) itself. Its the source of Shadow Hand's power. The entire point of the shinobi is to protect life and strive to live according to the "laws of nature" (that is ninpo philosophy in a nutshell). Harnessing fel powers from the Plane of Shadow is practically the antithesis of the class. Hopefully, I can outline this philosophy in more detail in a future update. Obviously, most of the class "fluff" is still missing. I could very well consider taking it outside of these two facts, and I'd be more than willing to help with this class. Thanks. I appreciate your feedback. :D
Roxlimn 03-25-07, 01:23 AM	No fireball? No Shadow Clones? ;)
The_Shaman 03-25-07, 08:00 AM	Is there an otaku-bane weapon on these forums ;) ? Anyway, the source of the SH discipline is imo whatever you want it to be in the campaign. If you want, you can simply rename it, although imo the use of such powers is not limited to evil/nongood characters (i.e. shadowdancers and their alignment restrictions. Of course, that depends on the campaign setting. My view of alignment tends to focus on one's social views as well as the personal, which is why I can understand this class applying to most any alignment (granted, chaotics would be extremely rare). However, it's a matter of adaptation and house-rules which need not be included in the class itself.
Kalis Atrud 03-25-07, 09:51 AM	Not at all. A poem attributed to Momochi Sandayu probably sums up the situation best: Ninjutsu is not something which should be used for personal desires. It is something which should be used when no other choice is available, for the sake of one’s country, for the sake of one’s lord, or to escape personal danger. If one deliberately uses it for the sake of personal desires, the techniques will fail totally. Similar thoughts are repeated in Fujibayashi Yasuyoshi's Bansenshukai, as well. The whole point being that if a shinobi doesn't have the "right heart" (shoshin), what he's doing ain't gonna work. That poem may have a nice viewpoint, but pretty much every budo tries to teach that it is to be used as a last resort by good hearted people, that doesn't make it so. There is nothing inherent in the art that would cause it to be unlearnable by somebody just using it to gain personal power. Surely if the hidden door discipline is based on bluff, a few students up to no good(or neutrality) would be able to get teaching by fooling the master. edit: This seems like a particularly dangerous pitfall if you do use the clan idea. The head sensei of the clan may not be able to see that his only son is evil or chaotic because of his bias and love for his son. Alternatively, he may see that his son is evil, but teaches the path of the Shinobi to him only so that the family's art can be passed on to his grandchildren after the sensei has died. Also, the Shinobi seems to walk all over the swordsage(full BAB, and warblade maneuver recovery, plus a bunch of stuff better than quick to act and most of the discipline focus stuff).
madmonk 03-25-07, 09:54 AM	As a "way to leap over" alignment restrictions, instead of saying that they can't be chaotic or evil, you could add things that shinobi should not do. After all, Oriental Adventures has a system that foregoes alignment. Speaking of the class itself. Damn you Heretic! All the paths are cool and I feel like a pokemon fan (gotta walk them all!). I was thinking that maybe for a feat you could get acces to one (or maybe two if you chose tha path a 2nd time) path abilities, specially for non-shinobi members of the clan (rangers and rogues most probably). By the way, what other classes would you think would be part of a shinobi clan? I mean, classes that could work hand in hand with the shinobi (that know ofhis identity of course) :)
heretic888 03-25-07, 10:08 AM	Anyway, the source of the SH discipline is imo whatever you want it to be in the campaign. Many maneuvers from the Shadow Hand discipline utilize cold or shadow energy. There is no way of houseruling this away without fundamentally changing the nature of the discipline. Another minor quibble I have with the Shadow Hand discipline applying to shinobi is its complete lack of any counters. That is perhaps as un-shinobi as harnessing shadow energy. ;) If you want, you can simply rename it, although imo the use of such powers is not limited to evil/nongood characters (i.e. shadowdancers and their alignment restrictions. Of course, that depends on the campaign setting. Just so there's no misunderstanding here, I never claimed that good characters couldn't use Shadow Hand maneuvers. Just that it doesn't fit the flavor of this class. My view of alignment tends to focus on one's social views as well as the personal, which is why I can understand this class applying to most any alignment (granted, chaotics would be extremely rare). However, it's a matter of adaptation and house-rules which need not be included in the class itself. I'm not really sure what you mean by "social views" vs "personal views" here. When it comes to alignment, I try to stick with RAW as much as possible.
heretic888 03-25-07, 10:35 AM	That poem may have a nice viewpoint, but pretty much every budo tries to teach that it is to be used as a last resort by good hearted people, that doesn't make it so. There is nothing inherent in the art that would cause it to be unlearnable by somebody just using it to gain personal power. As I stated before, the moral teachings are not something tacked on to the training as an afterthought. They are intrinsic to the physical teachings themselves. Surely if the hidden door discipline is based on bluff, a few students up to no good(or neutrality) would be able to get teaching by fooling the master. The alignment restriction is "any nonchaotic, nonevil". Not "any good". Also, the Shinobi seems to walk all over the swordsage(full BAB, and warblade maneuver recovery, plus a bunch of stuff better than quick to act and most of the discipline focus stuff). The swordsage has twice as many maneuevers known/readied as the shinobi and access to twice as many disciplines (once Hidden Door is written up). Ignoring that is comparable to ignoring a wizard's spellcasting as a class feature. Furthermore, complaining about the swordsage's recovery method is kind of like complaining that druids can't cast spells while wildshaped. Something in the area of 95% of swordsages are going to have Adaptive Style (which lets them refresh all their maneuvers as a full-round action), just like 95% of druids are going to have Natural Spell. That being said, I would like to devise a unique recovery method for the shinobi. More on that later.... I also don't quite buy into the "Way of the Shinobi is better than Discipline Focus" argument. At 1st level, a swordsage automatically gains Weapon Focus with five or six weapons. The swordsage also gets to add his Wisdom modifier as a bonus to damage when using maneuvers from two disciplines and gets a +2 bonus to all saves when using a stance from any two disciplines. There is also the swordsage's capstone ability (which lets them use two boosts at once three times a day).
Kalis Atrud 03-25-07, 11:28 AM	The swordsage has twice as many maneuevers known/readied as the shinobi and access to twice as many disciplines (once Hidden Door is written up). Ignoring that is comparable to ignoring a wizard's spellcasting as a class feature. The quantity of the maneuvers readied means nothing when you can refresh all your maneuvers as a swift action. More maneuvers readied is always nice, but a Shinobi should be just as capable of taking Adaptive style as a swordsage, thus they could swap in the ones needed as required. You are a Shinobi after all, a little stealth while you get ready shouldn't be too unreasonable. The number of disciplines does add a bit more possible versatility to the swordsage, though the power of this versatility depends largely on what the as yet unpublished Hidden Door will be. Furthermore, complaining about the swordsage's recovery method is kind of like complaining that druids can't cast spells while wildshaped. Something in the area of 95% of swordsages are going to have Adaptive Style (which lets them refresh all their maneuvers as a full-round action), just like 95% of druids are going to have Natural Spell. That being said, I would like to devise a unique recovery method for the shinobi. More on that later.... A full round action(with adaptive style) is still worse than the warblade/shinobi method of recovery, especially when the Shinobi gets a full base attack bonus as opposed to 3/4, the same hd and same skill points. I also don't quite buy into the "Way of the Shinobi is better than Discipline Focus" argument. At 1st level, a swordsage automatically gains Weapon Focus with five or six weapons. The swordsage also gets to add his Wisdom modifier as a bonus to damage when using maneuvers from two disciplines and gets a +2 bonus to all saves when using a stance from any two disciplines. Yes, the Swordsage gains weapon focus with five or six weapons, but in almost all circumstances that really just amounts to just weapon focus with the Swordsage's main weapon because the swordsage has only two hands(most of the time), and will generally use either a single weapon, or two weapons of the same type. He doesn't usually hire a caddy to haul around every weapon in the discipline to use as suits his fancy Wisdom modifier as a bonus to damage seems good, but when you are adding 20d6 damage on failed saves, + 5-10(for the range of 20-30 wisdom) is kind of small. +2 bonus on all saves is a pretty nice bonus if you are in a stance of the discipline(s), I'll grant you that. It however lacks scalability(like divine grace's as cha goes up, so do your saves) and is even more limited as you have 6 base disciplines, and only two can be covered by this particular boon. There is also the swordsage's capstone ability (which lets them use two boosts at once three times a day). I'm aware of dual boost. It certainly could be useful if you planned it right, but it is only a three time a day ability. So .75 uses per encounter in the 4 encounter day. PS. Ignoring the alignment thing, as neither of us is willing to budge on the issue(as seen in the past).
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-25-07, 04:36 PM	PS. Ignoring the alignment thing, as neither of us is willing to budge on the issue(as seen in the past). One day the two of you will meet and an epic battle will ensue. The winnar (originally misspelled but kept due to coolness) will make the loser his thrall and will force him to write D&D material for him. However, I'm not willing to wait for that day, and I'm not sure the side I favor will even win. So I hope you don't mind if I houserule this class, Heretic.
aelryinth 03-25-07, 07:23 PM	Given the skill list, skill points, two good saves, and stealth orientation of the class, it should be moved down to a Medium BAB to reflect the fact that it is not primarily a melee class...it is multi-function, far more akin to a swordsage then a warblade. Other then that, not a bad build. ===Aelryinth
heretic888 03-27-07, 08:48 PM	The quantity of the maneuvers readied means nothing when you can refresh all your maneuvers as a swift action. Okay, there is a huge difference between knowing 13 maneuvers + 4 stances versus knowing 25 maneuvers + 6 stances. The difference in power here isn't just horizontal, either, its also vertical. Meaning, not only can a swordsage ready a greater number of maneuvers at any given time than a warblade but, because he knows all these maneuvers, a swordsage is also mathematically more likely to know the higher-level powerful maneuvers, as well. A swordsage is much more likely to be packing multiple 9th level maneuvers than a warblade or shinobi. A full round action(with adaptive style) is still worse than the warblade/shinobi method of recovery, especially when the Shinobi gets a full base attack bonus as opposed to 3/4, the same hd and same skill points. Point taken. As I said before, I am going to devise a unique recovery method for the shinobi. Yes, the Swordsage gains weapon focus with five or six weapons, but in almost all circumstances that really just amounts to just weapon focus with the Swordsage's main weapon because the swordsage has only two hands(most of the time), and will generally use either a single weapon, or two weapons of the same type. He doesn't usually hire a caddy to haul around every weapon in the discipline to use as suits his fancy I don't see how you can honestly make this claim, considering all the creatures with weapon-type damage resistance out there. Pretty much any experienced player that does melee combat is going to carry a weapon of each damage type (bludgeon, slash, pierce) with him. Its just common sense. Wisdom modifier as a bonus to damage seems good, but when you are adding 20d6 damage on failed saves, + 5-10(for the range of 20-30 wisdom) is kind of small. That is because the swordsage's insightful strike class feature does not operate on the basis of quasi-Vancian principles like maneuvers do. +2 bonus on all saves is a pretty nice bonus if you are in a stance of the discipline(s), I'll grant you that. It however lacks scalability(like divine grace's as cha goes up, so do your saves) and is even more limited as you have 6 base disciplines, and only two can be covered by this particular boon. Regarding scalability, this is a non-issue. None of the shinobi's path abilities (with the exception of the limited uses per day supernatural ones) intrinsically scale like the paladin's divine grace, either. As for being limited by having more disciplines, this is also somewhat silly. Contrary to what the ToB book says, a swordsage is most effective when he specializes in a small number of disciplines (since the swordsage can qualify for high-level maneuvers easier than other martial adepts), rather than spreading himself out among them all. I'm aware of dual boost. It certainly could be useful if you planned it right, but it is only a three time a day ability. So .75 uses per encounter in the 4 encounter day. Yup. PS. Ignoring the alignment thing, as neither of us is willing to budge on the issue(as seen in the past). That's probably for the best. ;)
heretic888 03-27-07, 09:03 PM	However, I'm not willing to wait for that day, and I'm not sure the side I favor will even win. So I hope you don't mind if I houserule this class, Heretic. No, I don't mind. ;) Actually, I'm rather surprised people (namely, narukagami and yourself) have already expressed interest in incorporating my class into their games. Considering I only posted it five days ago. :D Even if they modify it, I take it as a positive sign when other players wish to make use of one of my creations.
narukagami 03-27-07, 09:10 PM	Actually, I'm rather surprised people (namely, narukagami and yourself) have already expressed interest in incorporating my class into their games. Considering I only posted it five days ago. :D Well, I do enjoy ToB, and thus I like having more new classes available to take advantage of it. Also, I forgot about the "fell energies" thing with Shadow Hand. I ignore most of the ToB flavor for something more suiting to my CS, and I made Shadow Hand powered by a sort of "nothingness" that is not inherently any alignment in and of itself.
heretic888 03-27-07, 09:11 PM	Given the skill list, skill points, two good saves, and stealth orientation of the class, it should be moved down to a Medium BAB to reflect the fact that it is not primarily a melee class...it is multi-function, far more akin to a swordsage then a warblade. Other then that, not a bad build. ===Aelryinth Thanks, Aelryinth. :) I have to partially disagree with your analysis, though. The degree of the shinobi's "stealth orientation" depends on how many steps players have taken into the way of stealth. This will become even more apparent when I finish writing up the other two or three way of the shinobi paths that I have planned. I would also argue that the primary role of the class is as a melee skirmisher and scout, much like the ranger. And, like the ranger, I think it isn't altogether unreasonable for a shinobi to have a 1/1 BAB (along with two high saves, d8 hit die, 20-ish class skills, 6 + x skill points, and a toned back "spell" progression). The ranger, incidentally, also has a number of "stealth orientation" abilities, like camouflage and hide in plain sight. ;) In any event, thanks for the feedback.
TheOinodaemon 03-28-07, 02:53 AM	I would tone the BAB down. As a whole the class abilities make him somewhat overpowered. But I like the class.
RorixBladewing 03-28-07, 01:58 PM	Wow heretic, I'm psyched already. I loved your shinobi no mono, and used it several times in my group's campaigns, and now you're going and combining it with my favorite new mechanic in years? You, undeniably, rock.
TheCook 03-28-07, 03:13 PM	Nice work, can't wait to see the Hidden Door discipline :) This one is going to be my favorite skirmisher :D my 2 copper: diplomacy as class skill, to fill the role of shinobi as infiltrator.
heretic888 03-28-07, 10:46 PM	3-28-07 A new entry entitled 'Special' was added. The shinobi's maneuver recovery method has been modified for balance and uniqueness. Hidden strike no longer applies to flanked opponents and it counts as a sneak attack of equal die for feat/prestige class qualification. It also stacks with sneak attack. Dancing shadow, vanishing mist, vanishing wind, and vanishing shadow have had their number of daily uses reduced to one-half the shinobi's Wisdom bonus.
Ryuu_Tenshi 03-29-07, 05:24 PM	Heretic, as usual you are one of the few people I've ever met, ever, who understands what Shinobi are actually about. Even the simple inclusion of Setting Sun into the disciplines... I can't wait to see this finished; I'm going to have to beat my DM's over the head with something to get them to let me play this, and I'm certinaly going to allow it. Just... wow. Way to truly capture the feeling of a shinobi with the delightful Tome of Battle mechanic. ... Is it just me or do the Way of the Shinobi seem a lot like Shadow Magic mysteries?
heretic888 03-29-07, 09:50 PM	I would tone the BAB down. As a whole the class abilities make him somewhat overpowered. But I like the class. Thanks. ;) I'll consider dropping the BAB from 1/1 to 3/4. But, to be perfectly honest, I think the revisions I made last night balance the class well enough to include a full BAB. The recovery method only refreshes around half of your maneuvers at once and forces you to use total defense, hidden strike is now effectively sudden strike, and many special abilities have had their number of daily uses reduced by half. If I were to do so, it would probably be for flavor reasons (and would see a partial increase in the maneuver progression as a result).
heretic888 03-29-07, 09:51 PM	Wow heretic, I'm psyched already. I loved your shinobi no mono, and used it several times in my group's campaigns, and now you're going and combining it with my favorite new mechanic in years? You, undeniably, rock. Thanks. I'm glad you like the class. :D
heretic888 03-29-07, 09:54 PM	Nice work, can't wait to see the Hidden Door discipline :) This one is going to be my favorite skirmisher :D Thanks. I'll get working on the Hidden Door discipline as soon as things are more or less finalized with the class. Hopefully, it won't take too long to write up. ;) my 2 copper: diplomacy as class skill, to fill the role of shinobi as infiltrator. I feel that Bluff covers the 'socializing' aspect of an infiltrator shinobi well enough on its own. :cool:
heretic888 03-29-07, 09:58 PM	Heretic, as usual you are one of the few people I've ever met, ever, who understands what Shinobi are actually about. Even the simple inclusion of Setting Sun into the disciplines... Heh. Wait until you see Hidden Door. :D Oh, and in case no one has figured it out yet, 'Hidden Door Discipline' is 'Togakure Ryu' in Japanese. Ninpo ikkan. :P I can't wait to see this finished; I'm going to have to beat my DM's over the head with something to get them to let me play this, and I'm certinaly going to allow it. Just... wow. Way to truly capture the feeling of a shinobi with the delightful Tome of Battle mechanic. Well, looks like I'm going to be getting a lot of playtesting for this thing in the near future. :cool: ... Is it just me or do the Way of the Shinobi seem a lot like Shadow Magic mysteries? I'm sorry but I have no idea what those are.
RorixBladewing 03-29-07, 10:36 PM	Hmm, just wanted to say I found the 'one half your wisdom bonus' thing kind of odd. Do other classes use halves? I trust you know what you're doing, that just sounds weird.
heretic888 03-29-07, 11:15 PM	Hmm, just wanted to say I found the 'one half your wisdom bonus' thing kind of odd. Do other classes use halves? I trust you know what you're doing, that just sounds weird. I don't know if other classes use one-half bonuses or not. I designed it like that to approximate the number of daily uses that other class abilities receive (i.e., rage or smite evil). Most shinobi will probably have a +10 to +12 Wis bonus by 20th level, for example, so I would expect them to be able to do such abilities between 5 to 6 times a day. I thought it was the most elegant way of scaling their daily uses within the confines of the way of the shinobi path designs.
Darth Sephiroth 03-30-07, 01:21 AM	I don't know if other classes use one-half bonuses or not. I designed it like that to approximate the number of daily uses that other class abilities receive (i.e., rage or smite evil). Most shinobi will probably have a +10 to +12 Wis bonus by 20th level, for example, so I would expect them to be able to do such abilities between 5 to 6 times a day. I thought it was the most elegant way of scaling their daily uses within the confines of the way of the shinobi path designs. Even with that, the Shinobi who puts everything into wisdom ought to get more of a benefit for it +7 is the highest you could get for Wisdom without magical effects going much higher becomes cost prohibitive
heretic888 03-30-07, 08:09 AM	Even with that, the Shinobi who puts everything into wisdom ought to get more of a benefit for it +7 is the highest you could get for Wisdom without magical effects going much higher becomes cost prohibitive You make an excellent point, Darth Sephiroth. I will be making some changes shortly.
heretic888 03-30-07, 08:15 AM	3-30-07 Dancing shadow, vanishing mist, vanishing wind, and vanishing shadow have had their number of daily uses increased to the shinobi's full Wisdom bonus (again).
RorixBladewing 03-30-07, 09:27 AM	That's all fine and dandy Heretic, but get to work on the Hidden Door. Now. I want something to make me smile when I get home.
PsiRadish 03-30-07, 03:22 PM	Most shinobi will probably have a +10 to +12 Wis bonus by 20th level, for example, so I would expect them to be able to do such abilities between 5 to 6 times a day.This one wouldn't: http://www.daintyrose.net/yuffie/gifs2.gif Wisdom is definitely not among any of Yuffie's strengths. I give her a 9 to start, with no increases (sans through aging). (Not that I like FF7, I just like Yuffie (and Aeris (ack, nested parenthesis)), and have been trying to adapt her to Oriental Adventures.) So anyway, this makes yet another nifty class that I can't use for half the things I want to because of heavily Wisdom-reliant class features; the others being swordsage and CAdv ninja. For monk the flavor screams high Wisdom right from the beginning so its not a problem, but I don't see why I can't have viable (if still somewhat impaired) foolish/impulsive/emotionally unstable ninjas :weep: But uh, other than all that, pretty spiffy :D
Ryuu_Tenshi 03-30-07, 06:49 PM	Yuffie isn't the kind of ninja Heretic is trying to create. Yuffie is, essentially, an anime ninja and far closer to a Rogue than a true Shinobi. Heck, her alignment is CN, while - despite the arguments on this thread - I'd say that most true Ninjas would be nonchaotic (if not outright lawful). You want Yuffers, make her a rogue. ^_^;
heretic888 04-01-07, 10:08 AM	That's all fine and dandy Heretic, but get to work on the Hidden Door. Now. I want something to make me smile when I get home. Well, I'm still in the process of brainstorming but this is what I've come up with so far. HIDDEN DOOR The Hidden Door discipline teaches its initiates to use evasion and adaptability to escape from danger unscathed. The maneuvers of this discipline are largely reactive in nature, focusing on countering an opponent's attacks and hindering his ability to continue fighting. Hidden Door's preferred weapons are the chain, nekode, ninja-to, quarterstaff, and unarmed strike. Its key skill is Escape Artist. I decided to change the key skill from Bluff to Escape Artist because the major emphasis of Hidden Door is avoiding immediate injury and adapting to the opponent's tactics. Because of this, I'm going to try to make a lot (at least half) of the maneuvers in the discipline be counters, as well as a handful of strikes and stances. There may be a few odd boosts, but these probably won't have direct combat applicability (such as increasing one's base land speed or a bonus to certain skill checks). Any suggestions you have would be great. ;)
Damon_Caskey 04-02-07, 04:16 PM	I commend the work you have done, but I still feel a sense of loss for the old Shinobi. The main problems I have are that the Shinobi feels far more generic now and not in a good way; it's lost that nice aura of uniqueness and mystery it had before. The next thing is that unlike the old Shinobi, your current incarnation is useless without buying the TOB. Your old version was eloquent and easy to play with nothing but a PHB and/or the SRD at your side. No doubt the popularity of this class is about to get a huge boost, but I have to say I'm no longer a fan of your Shinobi. From an objective standpoint, nice work. From a subjective view, no thanks. DC
heretic888 04-02-07, 11:21 PM	Ah, I knew something like this was coming.... I commend the work you have done, but I still feel a sense of loss for the old Shinobi. The main problems I have are that the Shinobi feels far more generic now and not in a good way; it's lost that nice aura of uniqueness and mystery it had before. The next thing is that unlike the old Shinobi, your current incarnation is useless without buying the TOB. Your old version was eloquent and easy to play with nothing but a PHB and/or the SRD at your side. No doubt the popularity of this class is about to get a huge boost, but I have to say I'm no longer a fan of your Shinobi. From an objective standpoint, nice work. From a subjective view, no thanks. DC Damon, I must respectfully disagree. ;) One of the problems I had with my original shinobi class is that it is, as another poster put it, essentially a rogue variant. It had a handful of original class features, of course, but the vast majority were just monk and rogue abilities. Even after fine-tuning the class for nearly two years, at the end of day it was still basically a monk/rogue hybrid. The only thing really "unique" about it were the 1st level abilities; everything else was just a mishmash of pre-existing concepts and class features. Because it was so similar to the rogue, of course, I felt very constrained in what I could do with the class. More than one poster had voiced the opinion that the shinobi essentially "overshadowed" the rogue or "stepped on its toes". I must admit there is some truth to this. I was in the awkward position of balancing what I wanted to do with the class against what the rogue could do already. The issue was further confounded by the fact that I (along with many others) feel core melee to be devastatingly underpowered (with the exception of a few heavily optimized builds usually involving charging and spiked chains). The shinobi was not the skillmonkey that the rogue is --- no trapfinding or Use Magic Device, for example --- so, it was pretty much left to the role of melee skirmisher (which is how I envisioned it to be, anyway). This is where Tome of Battle comes in. The Sublime Way gives options and versatility to the finesse skirmisher concept in a way that just couldn't be done before. I believe it vastly improves the toolset of melee characters who don't just do charges or full-attack actions (neither of which fit the shinobi concept very well) every other round. Plus, I just find the mechanics to be so damn cool. :P I also feel that the way of the shinobi paths are a superior design to the old shinobi class abilities. The old shinobi was, at heart, a modified rogue. It had a sneak attack progression, a list of special abilities acquired every x level, and a few set abilities (like evasion and uncanny dodge) speckled here and there. The Sublime Way shinobi is not only more flexible in design (you can really build the shinobi you want in a way not possible with the old rogue-esque design), but the abilities are largely original concepts I attempted to come up with. You're right in that the class really requires Tome of Battle to play it properly. But, then again, its weapon proficiencies are almost entirely items found in Oriental Adventures, so I'm not really too upset about going beyond what's in the SRD. I hope I made my case well enough for you there. :)
Nightshade1188 04-03-07, 06:36 AM	I'm rather fond of what you have done with the class. I think it is a great idea. I will probably use it in my next camaign. I'm looking forward to future updates.
heretic888 04-03-07, 07:36 AM	I'm rather fond of what you have done with the class. I think it is a great idea. I will probably use it in my next camaign. I'm looking forward to future updates. Thanks, Nightshade1188. I appreciate your support. :)
Damon_Caskey 04-03-07, 10:03 AM	I hope I made my case well enough for you there. :) I wouldn’t say it’s making a case per say; it’s really just a matter of different strokes for different folks. See, I actually feel that it is just as creative to take old mechanics and mix them into something new overall. You called your Shinobi a Rogue/Monk, but I didn’t see it that way. You want an example of a Rogue/Monk? Look at the piece of crap CaV Ninja. Granted, it bring a new mechanic to the table; but it’s a poorly rendered one with no support ever since. Otherwise, that class is nothing but a poor mash of two classes wit little forethought. Your's took the same components and made an effective, flavorful, and fun class that in a similar manor to the Duskblade, could probably be emulated, perhaps surpassed, but not from level 1 and certainly not with the same eloquence. It’s like my own Shinobi. I’d like to think that even though I (very intentionally) used off the shelf SRD components, the end product was something new. Now don’t get me wrong, I do like new mechanics, and I have nothing against TOB aside from the bandwagon syndrome going on with it. I just happen to think the old Shinobi was fine without TOB stuff. But then again, I saw it more as a specialized infiltrator with some skirmish capability rather then a skirmisher with skills, so that might be the issue. If nothing else, I would think it nice to repost it somewhere as a variant and provide a link to it here. Best of luck with this new version. Like I said, not my cup of tea, but that doesn’t mean I think its bad work or anything. Guess I’ll have to get a TOB one of these days so I can study up and give a more comprehensive/informed review. ;) DC
heretic888 04-03-07, 12:40 PM	I wouldn’t say it’s making a case per say; it’s really just a matter of different strokes for different folks. Fair enough. ;)
Swordsage_Master 04-04-07, 12:08 AM	Heretic888, I am once again in awe of your skills as a class designer. I am a tremendous fan and advocate of ToB, and what you have done here is nothing short of genius. I am excited to see more and I am equally excited to write up my next character using your work on this new Shinobi class. Good work and Thank you for it!:)
heretic888 04-04-07, 04:37 PM	Thanks for the support, Swordsage_Master. :cool:
heretic888 04-05-07, 06:23 PM	While I'm still working on the Hidden Door discipline, I thought I'd interject for a moment of levity. :D :D :D http://www.interrobangstudios.com/images/comics/62da21e046d4a.jpg
Swordsage_Master 04-09-07, 07:04 PM	That's BRILLIANT! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
turalisj 04-09-07, 07:30 PM	What is the Hidden Door discipline going to look like?
heretic888 04-10-07, 09:37 AM	What is the Hidden Door discipline going to look like? Turalisj, I explained the progress of the Hidden Door discipline in post 61 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11951345&postcount=61).
turalisj 04-10-07, 03:16 PM	Why is the Shadow Hand discipline not availible to the Shinobi?
narukagami 04-10-07, 03:20 PM	Why is the Shadow Hand discipline not availible to the Shinobi? Read the thread. Its been asked and answered several times.
turalisj 04-10-07, 03:26 PM	Ah, I saw it. Yeah, it is a bit on the fantasy side rather that how Heretic makes his classes.
JonnySpaz 04-24-07, 03:29 AM	So, is hidden door going to be extremely counter-heavy then? Can we expect some moves to instantly break a grapple, for example? Do you need any help working on hidden door? I'd be willing to lend a hand if needed.
doorknobdeity 04-26-07, 02:48 AM	While this class is looking good, I do wish you would keep the shinobi no bushi posted up, even if you didn't support it any more. First, even though, as you said, it was really only an amalgamation of other classes, the same could be said for the duskblade, and both it and your class overcome the limitations of the multiclassing system, not to mention all the paperwork that would come with it. Second, not everyone has access to the ToB. I don't want to seem negative, because I'm really not, but I do wish you would keep your Shinobi no Bushi around.
heretic888 04-27-07, 09:39 PM	Ah, I saw it. Yeah, it is a bit on the fantasy side rather that how Heretic makes his classes. I'm actually considering adding Shadow Hand to the list of available disciplines, as well as a few revisions to the class structure (such as lowering the BAB to 3/4 and raising the maneuvers known/readied progression). However, if I do so I will also have to significantly alter several of the way of the shinobi special abilities (as Shadow Hand maneuvers make many of them redundant). But, I'll have to think on this some more.
heretic888 04-27-07, 09:41 PM	So, is hidden door going to be extremely counter-heavy then? Yes. Can we expect some moves to instantly break a grapple, for example? Yes, among other things. Do you need any help working on hidden door? I'd be willing to lend a hand if needed. No, but thanks for the offer. :)
heretic888 04-27-07, 09:52 PM	While this class is looking good, I do wish you would keep the shinobi no bushi posted up, even if you didn't support it any more. Its not as if I've deleted the class or asked the Wizos to close the thread. I just removed it from my signature because I'm not sure what I want to do with it yet. Second, not everyone has access to the ToB. Their loss. ;) To be fair, though, not everyone has access to Oriental Adventures either, but you definitely need that book to make sense of the shinobi's list of weapon proficiencies. I don't want to seem negative, because I'm really not, but I do wish you would keep your Shinobi no Bushi around. I'll tell you something. Down the line, I was considering having several different class variations on the shinobi concept. A shinobi with psionics, a shinobi with spontaneous spellcasting, and a shinobi with martial maneuvers. However, to do so, I will first have to come up with a core skeletal structure that they can all be based upon. Anyway, that was just a thought that crossed my mind. :D
turalisj 04-28-07, 09:06 AM	For the psionics shinobi, you could consider merely giving them the Deception, Freedom, and Light/Dark mantles.. Deception mantle is focused on mind-affecting powers that let you (duh) decieve foes. Freedom mantle gives you added mobility. And the light/dark mantle helps you control light and dark.
Mookie37 05-11-07, 02:50 PM	<_< >_> *resurrection* I have to say that I'm really impressed with this class. I have a buddy running a campaign using almost nothing but classes off of the boards so I'll be showing him this. Now I know this has been brought up before, but I need to throw in my two cp. I understand your reasoning for the alignment restrictions, however the poem you posted mentions the one thing that I always associate with (what I know of) historical shinobi; the service to a nation/lord. This leads to my question: What if the nation/lord is evil, like an Oriental Zhentil Keep (I'm stuck in Faerun, sue me). A shinobi in that situation would be more likely to end up LE than LN in my opinion, especially in a more "realistic" LE society where they would be raised to think that they aren't "evil", just right. Still, non-chaotic fits well. Anyway, I will be using this, though until Hidden Door is done I will add the Shadow Hand discipline and may leave it even after that. I think the BaB is fine for a shinobi based more around skirmish battles than pure sneaking and skill mokeying(?), your mention of the Ranger actually convinced me of this. Edit: Upon further examination could you clarif y this ability? • No Trace (Ex): At 2nd step, you may now add one-half your Shinobi level (rounded down) to Survival checks made to track you. I assume this adds half your class level to the DC of the check, but I'd like some comfirmation.
heretic888 05-14-07, 10:33 PM	I have to say that I'm really impressed with this class. I have a buddy running a campaign using almost nothing but classes off of the boards so I'll be showing him this. Thanks. Let me know how it goes. :) Now I know this has been brought up before, but I need to throw in my two cp. I understand your reasoning for the alignment restrictions, however the poem you posted mentions the one thing that I always associate with (what I know of) historical shinobi; the service to a nation/lord. This leads to my question: What if the nation/lord is evil, like an Oriental Zhentil Keep (I'm stuck in Faerun, sue me). A shinobi in that situation would be more likely to end up LE than LN in my opinion, especially in a more "realistic" LE society where they would be raised to think that they aren't "evil", just right. This is something that bothers me with certain expressions of the alignment system. Countries, societies, and communities don't have motivations, goals, or thoughts. Groups don't make decisions. Only individuals do. Only individuals have "alignments". Even if the shinobi finds himself in a social environment that highly encourages a certain alignment (such as the current ruler being LE), it still all comes down to the individual and the decisions he or she chooses to make. In any event, regardless of the environment it finds itself in, ninpo is ninpo. It is predicated on not only teaching certain techniques and tactics, but passing on certain viewpoints and perspectives. Anyway, I will be using this, though until Hidden Door is done I will add the Shadow Hand discipline and may leave it even after that. I think the BaB is fine for a shinobi based more around skirmish battles than pure sneaking and skill mokeying(?), your mention of the Ranger actually convinced me of this. I'm glad you're convinced, but I'm reconsidering my earlier position. I would like some more input from other board members before moving on with the BAB issue. While I did base my earlier position on the existence of the Ranger, the truth is the Ranger is something of an oddity in this case. Classes that the Shinobi bears the most semblance to --- Monk, Rogue, Scout, Swordsage, and ninja-esque prestige classes like Ninja Spy, and Shadow Sun Ninja --- all have a 3/4 BAB. But, then again, the Shadow Scout from OA is also conceptually very similar to the Shinobi and it has a 1/1 BAB like the Ranger. I would like some more feedback before moving on with this particular issue. Edit: Upon further examination could you clarif y this ability? • No Trace (Ex): At 2nd step, you may now add one-half your Shinobi level (rounded down) to Survival checks made to track you. I assume this adds half your class level to the DC of the check, but I'd like some comfirmation. Yep. That's exactly what I meant. :)
turalisj 05-14-07, 10:46 PM	This is something that bothers me with certain expressions of the alignment system. Countries, societies, and communities don't have motivations, goals, or thoughts. Groups don't make decisions. Only individuals do. Only individuals have "alignments". Even if the shinobi finds himself in a social environment that highly encourages a certain alignment (such as the current ruler being LE), it still all comes down to the individual and the decisions he or she chooses to make. In any event, regardless of the environment it finds itself in, ninpo is ninpo. It is predicated on not only teaching certain techniques and tactics, but passing on certain viewpoints and perspectives. That's why my favorite alignment is Lawfull Neutral. You can have a little of both worlds, living by a personal code or an origanizations guild. Paladin see you kill someone in a duel, then try and smite you? LN pally, can't touch him. :D
Mookie37 05-15-07, 08:30 AM	Thanks for clearing up my questions, and I'll let you know my DM's opinion and those of the other players in my group when I get a chance.
AkumaDaimyo 05-28-07, 06:45 PM	Long time since anyone posted to this thread. I just want to know if this class has been play tested to see how compatible it is with other classes and where would this class fit into a setting like Eberron?
heretic888 05-29-07, 11:33 AM	Long time since anyone posted to this thread. I just want to know if this class has been play tested to see how compatible it is with other classes and where would this class fit into a setting like Eberron? AkumaDaimyo, I haven't had a chance to playtest the class yet and I'm not likely to do so in the near future as its still under construction (plus its near impossible to get a gaming group going around my neck of the woods). I'm still waiting to hear back from Mookie37 to see how the class fared in his group. As for fitting into Eberron, I can't really say. I really have no experience with that setting outside of the short time I played D&D Online: Stormreach a year or so back. Most of the settings I've played in have been completely homebrewn (and, honestly, I sort of prefer it that way). I will say that once I finally get the mechanics wrapped up, I will proceed to write up the 'Shinobi in the World' section which may be what you're looking for. Hopefully, the fluff text will answer a lot of question that many people have considering roleplaying this class. Until then.
LQT 06-02-07, 07:29 AM	Could and would you please add the shadow hands dicipline and make necessary changes like you wrote you are thinking to do and I will play test this class for you extensively. Just make sure it is a good solid class that can hold his own against any other class.
Hanzo187 07-01-07, 08:29 PM	:eek: Wow. I gotta say, heretic, I just read this, and your Shinobi is really awesome. I really like that Way of the Shinobi thing you did. They were all so enticing I didn't know which I liked most. I'll say one thing, it makes my Ninja look bad, that's for sure. My Jutsu were part of the foundation for my Ninja (they were focused on condition changes, aids for Ninja, like Darkvision and illusions, and status ailments for enemies, like blindness and immobilization). I thought I made a good Shinobi, but you blew mine away. Great class.:D Oh, and great Turtles comics. I like 'em, but you couldn't be more accurate.
heretic888 07-10-07, 07:06 PM	I am planning on posting a sizable revision to the class over the next day or so. Any last minute suggestions or feedback is very much appreciated. :)
Hanzo187 07-11-07, 04:00 PM	I'd advise taking my input w/ a grain of salt, but they're ideas, so what the heck. I could see potential in using Disguise Self and Alter Self for the Ninja. Maybe you could incorporate a Way of Mysticism or Way of Disguise or something along that line, utilizing the two. I also see no reason why a Ninja cannot have Blindsight, or at least Blindsense. The Scout gets it at later levels, but I always felt Ninjas were more at home in the dark than Scouts. You could also try a Way of Tracking, where the Ninja is able to become a master tracker. After all, if a Ninja goes rogue, and that guy is already skilled at being hard to track, you need someone better to track him down. You could have your clan have a small group of tracker Ninja that could find missing persons or anyone of importance. As I said, grain of salt.:)
Hochiu 07-11-07, 06:56 PM	I've got a question that may have been answered since I last looked at the thread but, Heretic, are you planning on developing any prestige classes that would look attractive to the shinobi? I don't need to be the one to say that the benefit of most prestige classes is that it compliments a specific take on an ability that the base class has, be it spell progression, ability progression, or maneuvers. Or, if you don't need a specific prestige class built up, which prestige classes do you see as being complimentary to the shinobi? I don't know what your revision entails, so this could completely change in the future.
heretic888 07-13-07, 07:58 PM	7-13-07 I finally added some flavor text, as well as rewording some of the existing flavor text. The base attack bonus was lowered to 3/4 progression. The progression of maneuvers known, maneuvers readied, and stances known was increased to halfway between that of a warblade and swordsage. Shadow Hand is now among the shinobi's disciplines. The shinobi's recovery mechanic has been changed. The 'way of deception' has been changed to 'way of misdirection' and the 'way of movement' has been changed to 'way of celerity'. Several abilities under way of the shinobi have been removed, added, or modified.
narukagami 07-13-07, 09:05 PM	Shadow Hand is now among the shinobi's disciplines. So what was the kicker that made you decide this? Popular demand, different take on flavor? Or just wanted more options? Inquiring minds want to know!:P
heretic888 07-13-07, 09:09 PM	So what was the kicker that made you decide this? Popular demand, different take on flavor? Or just wanted more options? Inquiring minds want to know!:P :detect: :detect: :detect:
turalisj 07-13-07, 09:48 PM	So... where's the hidden door? Is it hiding?
heretic888 07-14-07, 07:42 AM	:detect: :detect: :detect: Ok, in all seriousness.... I decided to include Shadow Hand among the shinobi's disciplines based not only on popular consensus here, but also because i have recently come to the realization I was unintentionally collapsing mechanics with flavor. Also, several of the shinobi's class abilities essentially mimicked some of the Shadow Hand maneuvers (such as invisibility and teleportation), so I figured why not go all the way?? ;)
heretic888 07-14-07, 07:44 AM	So... where's the hidden door? Is it hiding? For the time being, yes. :D I wanted to focus my efforts on completing the class before delving too deeply into the Hidden Door discipline. It is coming, but I'd like to finalize things with the shinobi class before focusing on the discipline.
Hochiu 07-15-07, 03:09 PM	So... where's the hidden door? Is it hiding? Somebody, get the elf.
Yanagita Kunio 07-16-07, 11:58 PM	Really nice class overall. I like the use of ToB mechanics to provide versatility to the in-combat skillset. Really looking forward to seeing Hidden Door stances and manuevers...love the idea of a discipline centered on defensive counters.
Kribage 07-24-07, 05:53 PM	Hate to sound like an echo, but umm.... how's Hidden Door coming along? It's just hard to get a full view of the class without seeing its proprietary discipline. So hurry up so we can make use of your intellectual property! ;)
turalisj 07-25-07, 12:07 AM	I'm trying to make a spot check, but keep getting a natural 1.... stupid teenage wisdom penalty.... :(
Nexis 07-25-07, 06:40 PM	Blade of Celerity (Ex): At 3rd step, you gain a +1 insight bonus to your melee attack and damage rolls for every two steps you have taken in the way of celerity. You must move at least 10 feet to gain the benefit of this ability. Improved Evasion (Ex): At 5th step, you gain the benefit of improved evasion. You still take no damage if you make a successful Reflex save against an attack, and even if you fail the Reflex save, you take only half damage from the attack. If you are helpless, you do not gain the benefit of improved evasion. Some of your steps, like the one above, are still labeled with the wrong step. Also, Id like to suggest that you change all the ways of the Shinobi to 5 steps. This is kind of a large overhaul, but it would make it so each Shinobi is usually specialized in two disciplines or one is mastered and the Shinobi has training in the others. It just seems to work better and it helps so that Shinobi are more diversified, as a versatile combatant, like a Ninja, should be.
RavenShinobi 07-31-07, 06:59 PM	Some of your steps, like the one above, are still labeled with the wrong step. Also, Id like to suggest that you change all the ways of the Shinobi to 5 steps. This is kind of a large overhaul, but it would make it so each Shinobi is usually specialized in two disciplines or one is mastered and the Shinobi has training in the others. It just seems to work better and it helps so that Shinobi are more diversified, as a versatile combatant, like a Ninja, should be. i like that suggestion. i am all about a more diversified Shinobi. :D
TheAnthroDM 08-03-07, 12:37 AM	This class looks wonderful, I'm sad that I can not provide any suggestions for improvement on it. Edit: Woah! Wait a minute, it should be noted that there are many evil acts that aren't dishonorable to ones clan or family. Non-chaotic I can see, non-evil. I think not.
Razz 08-10-07, 12:03 PM	Dude, you need to seriously send in a submission to Dragon Online submissions located on the D&D Website for their Digital Initiative! Have you done it yet? They could so publish this and make it official...and make you famous! :D
RavenShinobi 08-11-07, 09:39 AM	Dude, you need to seriously send in a submission to Dragon Online submissions located on the D&D Website for their Digital Initiative! Have you done it yet? They could so publish this and make it official...and make you famous! :D i second that! when does the new online content:confused: come out?
Razz 08-11-07, 10:12 AM	i second that! when does the new online content:confused: come out? No one knows, but they have their submission guidelines up which means a few more months, maybe. Best to send a submission now cause they won't answer you for 2 months.
turalisj 08-13-07, 09:44 PM	i second that! when does the new online content:confused: come out? If he does that, then no one on the boards can actualy use it without getting dragon online, and he can't change it easily if it needs to be. There's a double side to everything.
Hochiu 08-14-07, 11:04 AM	If he does that, then no one on the boards can actualy use it without getting dragon online, and he can't change it easily if it needs to be. There's a double side to everything. That, and there's an unverified rumor floating around that anything posted to the Wizards forums are already technically Wizard's property, so they could post his Shinobi Class and my own Firearms rules with no previous consent needed from either he or I. I'm trying to track down the truth of such a statement, though, because I don't remember it being in the Terms of Service that I signed.
Hanzo187 09-11-07, 09:18 PM	It's there. I've already read it. Just out of curiosity, heretic, I was wondering why your Shinobi doesn't have Disable Device as an In-Class Skill. Considering sabotage was probably one of the Ninja's areas (though you'd know better than me), it seems like it would make sense if the Shinobi had Disable Device. I just thought I'd stick that out there.
turalisj 09-12-07, 07:27 AM	That, and there's an unverified rumor floating around that anything posted to the Wizards forums are already technically Wizard's property, so they could post his Shinobi Class and my own Firearms rules with no previous consent needed from either he or I. I'm trying to track down the truth of such a statement, though, because I don't remember it being in the Terms of Service that I signed. No, that wasn't. And I'm sure there would be a great deal of people angered over that. So much so that WotC would be scarred for the rest of it's existance.
narukagami 09-12-07, 10:52 AM	No, that wasn't. And I'm sure there would be a great deal of people angered over that. So much so that WotC would be scarred for the rest of it's existance. Ahem. By posting or submitting any text, images, designs, video, sound, code, data, lists, or other materials or information (such User-submitted content, collectively, "User Content") to or through a Site, including without limitation on any User profile page, you hereby irrevocably grant to Wizards, its affiliates and sublicensees, a worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable, royalty-free, non-exclusive, and fully sub-licensable license, to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform and display such User Content (in whole or in part) in any media and to incorporate the User Content into other works in any format or medium now known or later developed. The foregoing grants shall include the right to exploit any proprietary rights in such User Content, including but not limited to rights under copyright, trademark, service mark or patent laws under any relevant jurisdiction.
Hanzo187 09-13-07, 03:01 PM	Unfortunate but true. Though to be frank, if they actually posted any of our stuff without making a typo or spelling error, I'd be impressed.
DarthVicious074 09-13-07, 10:18 PM	Is there anything about walking on water? I mean, if you're gonna have a ninja who can do coolness like invisibility, than he should walk on water.
heretic888 09-15-07, 04:04 PM	Some of your steps, like the one above, are still labeled with the wrong step. Thanks for the correction. ;) Also, Id like to suggest that you change all the ways of the Shinobi to 5 steps. This is kind of a large overhaul, but it would make it so each Shinobi is usually specialized in two disciplines or one is mastered and the Shinobi has training in the others. It just seems to work better and it helps so that Shinobi are more diversified, as a versatile combatant, like a Ninja, should be. As they are currently written, a shinobi can "master" (i.e., take all ten steps in) one path or "dabble" (i.e., take somewhere between one and nine steps in) two or more paths. Your character can be as versatile as you wish him or her to be. This class looks wonderful, I'm sad that I can not provide any suggestions for improvement on it. Thanks for the positive feedback. :) Edit: Woah! Wait a minute, it should be noted that there are many evil acts that aren't dishonorable to ones clan or family. Non-chaotic I can see, non-evil. I think not. The two basic precepts of ninpo philosophy is that life is the highest value in existence and one should strive to live according to the "laws of nature". It seems that non-chaotic, non-evil fit pretty well to me. Just out of curiosity, heretic, I was wondering why your Shinobi doesn't have Disable Device as an In-Class Skill. Considering sabotage was probably one of the Ninja's areas (though you'd know better than me), it seems like it would make sense if the Shinobi had Disable Device. I just thought I'd stick that out there. Because, in D&D, the Disable Device skill actually has very little to do with "sabotage". It is mostly used by rogues and similar classes to disarm traps. In this regard, I didn't want to give the shinobi too many of the rogue-ish class skills because I felt it would be stepping on the rogue's shoes too much. Also, historically, most of the ninja's acts of "sabotage" generally involved setting stuff on fire --- not taking apart mechanical doohickeys. ;) Is there anything about walking on water? I mean, if you're gonna have a ninja who can do coolness like invisibility, than he should walk on water. Yes, the Shadow Hand discipline. It has maneuvers that allow one to become invisible, become ethereal, teleport, spider climb, and air walk. If you're looking to play the highly fantastical ninja of popular fiction, then that's the way to go.
Hanzo187 09-15-07, 05:27 PM	Because, in D&D, the Disable Device skill actually has very little to do with "sabotage". It is mostly used by rogues and similar classes to disarm traps. In this regard, I didn't want to give the shinobi too many of the rogue-ish class skills because I felt it would be stepping on the rogue's shoes too much. Gotcha. Also, historically, most of the ninja's acts of "sabotage" generally involved setting stuff on fire --- not taking apart mechanical doohickeys. Yeah, FIYAH!! :mage: You certainly know your Japan. Mind switching brains?
DarthVicious074 09-20-07, 01:59 AM	Because, in D&D, the Disable Device skill actually has very little to do with "sabotage". It is mostly used by rogues and similar classes to disarm traps. In this regard, I didn't want to give the shinobi too many of the rogue-ish class skills because I felt it would be stepping on the rogue's shoes too much. Also, historically, most of the ninja's acts of "sabotage" generally involved setting stuff on fire --- not taking apart mechanical doohickeys. ;) We didn't start the Fire!:D :mage: :D
turalisj 09-20-07, 07:27 AM	Grenadier anyone?
Doberler 10-05-07, 09:20 AM	just curious... is there any progress on the hidden door discipline?
heretic888 10-05-07, 04:02 PM	just curious... is there any progress on the hidden door discipline? Yes. ;)
Doberler 10-09-07, 05:05 AM	Yes. ;) Is there an ETA on its release?
heretic888 10-09-07, 04:34 PM	Is there an ETA on its release? Soon. ;) Ok, in all seriousness, I plan to have the class updated within a week and the discipline posted within two weeks. We'll see how it goes.
Hanzo187 10-12-07, 12:09 AM	Cool. I'm eager to see it.
Doberler 10-13-07, 02:35 AM	I'm anxious to see it too... I'm using a Shinobi/Ninja Spy in Rokugan and I'm eager to see what other forms of niftyness i can accomplish with Hidden Door
Hanzo187 11-12-07, 12:09 AM	Not to sound nitpicky or nothing, but I was kind of wondering what your update entailed and when it's coming. If Hidden Door's gotta wait, it's gotta wait. However, I am a little curious about any changes you plan on making to your Shinobi. :bigeyes:
KLGChaos 11-12-07, 09:26 AM	The class looks really cool, man. This is how is definitely more how I pictured the Ninja class (at least compared to what they gave us in Dragon Magazine, which seemed like a weaker form of Rogue/Ninja Spy with some crappy Ki abilities). Can't wait to see the fully finished product.
PoisonElf76 12-02-07, 06:54 PM	Like so many others posting here, I am dying with anticipation to see the final product. Are we going to get to see the Hidden Door disc. soon? I love what I see here, and am excited to see it all come together.
heretic888 12-02-07, 07:21 PM	Hi guys, Sorry about the delay, but I am currently in the process of moving so I haven't had much free time the last few weeks. I will post any updates as soon as possible. Thanks to everybody for showing such interest. :)
Wizardmon 12-08-07, 07:19 PM	Wow, that class is amazing!!!! I am so showing that to my ninja-player in my group.
wraithranma 12-10-07, 12:38 PM	This is great! As a practiconeer of Bujinkan Ninjutsu, and having studied the history of real Ninja, I am happy to see a non-western sterotyped Ninja. If you want help on defineing or adding realistic traits feel free to ask!
swanyusd 12-30-07, 12:22 PM	Here is the link to the original shinobi class you wrote up. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=188379
DarthVicious074 01-03-08, 12:30 AM	Saw Human Weapon I while back when they did the Ninjutsu style. I liked the episode, but didn't care for the fact that they kept on saying that Ninja were assassins, as if that was all they did. Even if they did carry out assassinations, it wasn't the only thing they did. They were also spies, bodyguards, secret police, etc. But I guess I'm preaching to the choir here. Anyway I like the class so far, keep up the good work heretic888
narukagami 01-03-08, 02:07 PM	Saw Human Weapon That right there was the problem. I've only seen one TV show/special/documentary on any educational channel properly represent samurai, I've never seen a single one do the same for shinobi. Sensationalism sells, truth doesn't, I guess.
DarthVicious074 01-03-08, 03:28 PM	That right there was the problem. I've only seen one TV show/special/documentary on any educational channel properly represent samurai, I've never seen a single one do the same for shinobi. Sensationalism sells, truth doesn't, I guess. True, But I do like the show for the reason that it shows others cultures (albeit the martial ones and not always accurate as I've already stated). I mean, it might encourage someone to go to these various countries and learn and study the various cultures (and martial arts), and then we wouldn't have so many ignorant people out there, and a lot of our world's problems would be solved.
wraithranma 01-09-08, 12:00 PM	The Human Weapon episode was ok. Youd be surpised to know that many shinobi were infact samurai. Most operated under a daimyo and very few were assassins in the term of killer for hire. Almost anything you hear on tv,movies, games, comics etc. is untrue or missinformation supplied on purpose.
EaterOfTheDead 01-10-08, 02:12 PM	I am currently working on getting the rules and code together to launch a campaign setting website called World of Brandes and the class list will include ninjas. It's nice to see a historically themed version of the class. The ninja I will be using in the beginning are really just modified monks but this is nice to see as a take on the whole thing. Keep up the good work, pal.
DarthVicious074 01-15-08, 03:40 PM	The Human Weapon episode was ok. Youd be surpised to know that many shinobi were infact samurai. Most operated under a daimyo and very few were assassins in the term of killer for hire. Almost anything you hear on tv,movies, games, comics etc. is untrue or missinformation supplied on purpose. Oh yes, I know. Hattori Hanzo was considered a Samurai, when if fact he was a Shinobi.
narukagami 01-15-08, 03:42 PM	Oh yes, I know. Hattori Hanzo was considered a Samurai, when if fact he was a Shinobi. Correction, Hattori Hanzo was a Samurai, and was also a shinobi. :P
DarthVicious074 01-15-08, 03:54 PM	Correction, Hattori Hanzo was a Samurai, and was also a shinobi. :P Touche.:duel:
KLGChaos 01-17-08, 02:38 PM	Every time I hear the name "Hanzo" I always think of Kill Bill now. :) Anyway, it's nice to look back over the classes again now that I know exactly own the ToB book and can see the different disciplines and abilities. Someone in my game is playing a Gestalt Swordsage/Crusader... so many maneuvers and stances to keep track of (some randomly). But, I'm a nice guy (I'm even allowing him to apply his Discipline Focus to his Devoted Spirit discipline because I didn't see any balance issues-- and he really wanted to use a Tetsubo as his main weapon). I've also decided to replace the Fighters in my game with Warblades (with heavy armor and d10 hp instead of medium armor and d12), just because straight fighters suck. I can't wait till this class is finished (with the Hidden Door Discipline anyway) and I can add them into my campaign.
heretic888 02-01-08, 07:59 PM	2-1-08 Rewrote some of the flavor text. Reduced the class progressions for maneuvers known and maneuvers readied so that you end up with 17 and 9 at 20th level, respectively. Reworded the text for stances so that a 1st level shinobi is not restricted to 1st level stances (such as in the case of multiclassing). Completely revamped the way of the shinobi class abilities. They are now keyed to specific disciplines (dawn's eclipse, diamond clarity, shrouded midnight, truth and falsehood) and the majority of abilities only work if you are in a stance from that discipline. Posted a very rough draft of the Hidden Door discipline. More maneuvers to be added very soon. Wow, has it really been 6 months since I updated?? God, I procrastinate something awful....
Hanzo187 02-01-08, 10:36 PM	Wow, has it really been 6 months since I updated?? God, I procrastinate something awful.... I don't care. From what I've seen, your updated Shinobi is AWESOME. The way you've integrated the disciplines into Way of the Shinobi was really cool. In fact, adding more Ways now makes me even more interested. Overall, your Way seems like it's got all the kinks out, on top of some terrific additions. Glad to see you have Hidden Door up, even if it's only partial. I can definitely see some crazy $*!^ with that discipline. Hell, I could even see some potential abuse with Hidden Door and my own Sublime Ninja. Now you've got me all excited about Hidden Door. I can't wait to see the rest, but I'll try to be patient and wait. Excellent update, excellent class.
heretic888 02-02-08, 01:52 PM	2-2-08 Revised superior misdirection so that it can only be used once per round (thanks to RadicalTaoist for the call).
heretic888 02-02-08, 01:58 PM	I don't care. From what I've seen, your updated Shinobi is AWESOME. The way you've integrated the disciplines into Way of the Shinobi was really cool. In fact, adding more Ways now makes me even more interested. Overall, your Way seems like it's got all the kinks out, on top of some terrific additions. Glad to see you have Hidden Door up, even if it's only partial. I can definitely see some crazy $*!^ with that discipline. Hell, I could even see some potential abuse with Hidden Door and my own Sublime Ninja. Now you've got me all excited about Hidden Door. I can't wait to see the rest, but I'll try to be patient and wait. Excellent update, excellent class. Hi Hanzo187, I'm glad you like the new updates. :) Hopefully, I should have more Hidden Door maneuvers posted within a week or so. I may also end up editing some of the existing maneuvers (I'm considering changing Hidden Opportunity from a stance to a counter). Laterz.
heretic888 02-08-08, 07:31 PM	2-8-08 The Hidden Door discipline is finished. I anticipate some tweaking based on feedback in the near future, but the discipline should be done save for minor editing.
Hanzo187 02-08-08, 10:11 PM	Sweetness. I like Hidden Door. I especially like all the counters. I've been trying to get optimum use out of my Sublime Ninja's Favored Maneuvers, and I always felt counters were the way to go in that regard. Now, there are great counter options for that. Also, I added Hidden Door as a bonus discipline for my Sublime Ninja. If you have a problem with that, I'll take it down, but I think it complments my Ninja well, too. There was one thing I noticed, however. I saw that at 7th, 13th, and 19th level, you have a dead level. No new maneuver known or readied, no new stance, no abilities. Just thought I'd point that out. When it was 19/10/5, it didn't seem like a problem, but you do have a few dead levels now. Nevertheless, a well-made class (and it's not evil, thank God).
heretic888 02-08-08, 10:55 PM	Sweetness. I like Hidden Door. I especially like all the counters. I've been trying to get optimum use out of my Sublime Ninja's Favored Maneuvers, and I always felt counters were the way to go in that regard. Now, there are great counter options for that. Also, I added Hidden Door as a bonus discipline for my Sublime Ninja. If you have a problem with that, I'll take it down, but I think it complments my Ninja well, too. There was one thing I noticed, however. I saw that at 7th, 13th, and 19th level, you have a dead level. No new maneuver known or readied, no new stance, no abilities. Just thought I'd point that out. When it was 19/10/5, it didn't seem like a problem, but you do have a few dead levels now. Nevertheless, a well-made class (and it's not evil, thank God). Hi Hanzo187, I'm glad you enjoy my work and I don't mind if you use it in your games however you see fit. Thanks for the catch on the "dead levels". I'll look over the chart later tonight and see if I can't come up with a more appealing progression. Laterz.
Razz 02-10-08, 09:29 AM	Let me guess, Online Dragon didn't accept your offer to submit an article on this new class eh?
heretic888 02-10-08, 12:15 PM	Let me guess, Online Dragon didn't accept your offer to submit an article on this new class eh? Hi Razz, Actually, I only just now updated the class this past week so I haven't really sent anything in. I anticipate revisions based on feedback in the near future, as well, so its not totally finished yet, anyway. Laterz.
heretic888 02-12-08, 04:34 PM	2-12-08 Lowered the progression of maneuvers readied for the Shinobi class. They still end up with 9 maneuvers readied at 20th level, but begin with 3 maneuvers readied at 1st level now. Modified the Cat's Eyes, Under the Blade, Keen Assault, and Vanishing Step maneuvers for the Hidden Door discipline. Most of these changes were minor upgrades or textual clarifications. Added the Edge of Deception, Hidden Door Dodge, and Veiled Saboteur feats to the new feats section.
heretic888 02-14-08, 05:25 PM	2-14-08 Clarified and expanded upon the text for way of the shinobi and the four paths. Hidden Door Dodge has been removed from the new feats section and replaced by Hidden Door Counter. As always, feedback is welcome. Laterz.
heretic888 02-15-08, 04:48 PM	2-15-08 Wrote up further expansion and clarification for way of the shinobi and the four paths. Adaptive Path has been added to the new feats section. Still waitin' on that feedback, guys....
Hanzo187 02-16-08, 05:16 PM	Well, if no one else will respond, I will. I'm really glad you replaced Hidden Door Dodge with Hidden Door Counter. It came off like a weaker form of Dodge, but this new one works more to the Ninja's benefit. Edge of Deception is definitely useful to a Ninja. Hell, it's useful to just about any mobile class, but it's most useful in that it can help counter the MAD many PC's suffer when playing the Ninja, whether yours or the CA Ninja. Add that it saves you from spending SP in Bluff, and it puts the Ninja in better shape. Since your four paths focus so much on stances, I thought you should put in the Swordsage's stance progression. I don't think it'll overpower the Shinobi, and it'll make for more effective use of the paths. I did notice you knocked off the dead level at 13th Level, but you're still dead at 7th and 19th. Maybe some kind of tweak to maneuver progession. It looks like if you move up the progression to the next maneuver by one level, you might knock out the last two dead levels. Either that, or a small list of ToB-based (or whatever) feats at 7th, 13th, and 19th. That actually might work because you give Improved Unarmed Strike at 1st Level, so there could be a feat progression of sorts there. Anyway, gotta run. If you send this in, I hope it does well.
narukagami 02-16-08, 07:08 PM	I'm really glad you replaced Hidden Door Dodge with Hidden Door Counter. It came off like a weaker form of Dodge, but this new one works more to the Ninja's benefit. Edge of Deception is definitely useful to a Ninja. Hell, it's useful to just about any mobile class, but it's most useful in that it can help counter the MAD many PC's suffer when playing the Ninja, whether yours or the CA Ninja. Add that it saves you from spending SP in Bluff, and it puts the Ninja in better shape. Agreed. I did notice you knocked off the dead level at 13th Level, but you're still dead at 7th and 19th. Maybe some kind of tweak to maneuver progession. It looks like if you move up the progression to the next maneuver by one level, you might knock out the last two dead levels. Either that, or a small list of ToB-based (or whatever) feats at 7th, 13th, and 19th. That actually might work because you give Improved Unarmed Strike at 1st Level, so there could be a feat progression of sorts there. BAB increases at 7th level, as well as 19th. They're not really dead levels. Anyway, I rather like the Hidden Door. It seems (obviously) to be heavily counter based, and all without stepping on Setting Sun's toes.
heretic888 02-17-08, 10:48 PM	I'm really glad you replaced Hidden Door Dodge with Hidden Door Counter. It came off like a weaker form of Dodge, but this new one works more to the Ninja's benefit. Hi Hanzo187, I'm glad you and narukagami like the change. :) Some of the reasons I replaced Hidden Door Dodge with Hidden Door Counter is that a) the latter fit the discipline better thematically and b) the former was mechanically too similar to Diamond Mind's Pearl of Black Doubt stance. There were also balance issues. If the dodge bonus applied to all opponents, it was too powerful for a low-level feat. If it applied to only the opponent who missed you, it was basically a crappy version of Dodge (which is itself an underwhelming feat, even at 1st level). In either event, I'm pleased with the new feat. Edge of Deception is definitely useful to a Ninja. Hell, it's useful to just about any mobile class, but it's most useful in that it can help counter the MAD many PC's suffer when playing the Ninja, whether yours or the CA Ninja. Add that it saves you from spending SP in Bluff, and it puts the Ninja in better shape. Well, I always did find it silly that the ability to outmaneuver and misdirect your opponents in close-quarters combat was tied to your ability to tell lies rather than your ability to perform feats physically. Just because someone is a good liar doesn't mean he or she is good at feinting in hand-to-hand. Since your four paths focus so much on stances, I thought you should put in the Swordsage's stance progression. I don't think it'll overpower the Shinobi, and it'll make for more effective use of the paths. Honestly, the difference would be a whopping +1 stance by 20th level. While you're right that it probably wouldn't unbalance the Shinobi its also a pretty inconsequential change that would have little impact one way or the other. If anything, I might consider dumping a few of the maneuvers known to bump the stances known up 7 or even 8 by 20th level. But, I'm not particularly keen on that idea, either. I did notice you knocked off the dead level at 13th Level, but you're still dead at 7th and 19th. Maybe some kind of tweak to maneuver progession. It looks like if you move up the progression to the next maneuver by one level, you might knock out the last two dead levels. Either that, or a small list of ToB-based (or whatever) feats at 7th, 13th, and 19th. That actually might work because you give Improved Unarmed Strike at 1st Level, so there could be a feat progression of sorts there. Well, first off, I'm not too worried about the dead levels. I scanned over the Warblade's chart yesterday. If you don't count the +1 BAB, then that class also has three dead levels (i.e., no progression in the specials column or to any maneuver columns), although I don't remember what they are off the top of my head. So, I don't see it as a particularly big deal. That being said, I hadn't realized that those levels actually lined up in such a symmetrical fashion (every six levels after 1st). I may incorporate a feat progression akin to the Warblade's in a future revision. Anyway, gotta run. If you send this in, I hope it does well. Thanks. I appreciate your support. :) Laterz.
heretic888 02-17-08, 11:05 PM	Anyway, I rather like the Hidden Door. It seems (obviously) to be heavily counter based, and all without stepping on Setting Sun's toes. Hi narukagami, I'm glad you like the Hidden Door discipline. :) Actually, what I was going for with Hidden Door was, to use the language of 4E, a sort of Reverse Defender discipline; in some ways, a thematic opposite of Devoted Spirit (which is unabashedly a Defender discipline). While a Defender based discipline might be oriented around the motto of "attack my friends and you'll regret it", what I was going for with the Hidden Door was something along the lines of "attack me and you'll regret it". The goal was to create a discipline that discourages the baddies from targeting the Shinobi, to strengthen their role as a Striker. So, I had a big emphasis on foiling foes' attacks and on gaining combat advantage against foes who attack you and miss. Hidden Door was supposed to be designed as a discipline for escaping capture during covert missions, so I tried to orient it around making people think twice before continuing to attack or restrain you. I will say that I'm very pleased with how Hidden Door turned out. It was even relatively easy to design thematically related feats for the discipline. By contrast, I'm still struggling with the class (something keeps bothering me aesthetically) that I've been working on since I began this project. Irony. Laterz.
jeff-heikkinen 02-23-08, 05:01 PM	I like it. I would make a few minor modifications if I were to use it, just to make it a viable Rogue substitute (and slightly more ninjaey-feeling); specifically, I would add Trapfinding at first level (if I didn't just house-rule the need for it out of existence) and make Search, Disable Device and Open Locks class skills. Anything that makes the Rogue less mandatory is a good thing in my book, and you specifically describe them as spies and saboteurs, roles that strongly suggest access to these skills (Disable Device practically means sabotage!). I might drop Unarmed Strike. But that's minor, mostly this is about doing cool ninja stuff in combat. As such, I think it would be a good addition to any campaign using the Book of Nine Swords.
Hanzo187 02-23-08, 11:14 PM	I would make a few minor modifications if I were to use it, just to make it a viable Rogue substitute (and slightly more ninjaey-feeling); specifically, I would add Trapfinding at first level (if I didn't just house-rule the need for it out of existence) and make Search, Disable Device and Open Locks class skills. Anything that makes the Rogue less mandatory is a good thing in my book, and you specifically describe them as spies and saboteurs, roles that strongly suggest access to these skills (Disable Device practically means sabotage!). I've made mention of this before, and while the Shinobi has fantasy elements, it's more or less meant to tie in with the historical Ninja. heretic and narukagami are basically the best when it comes to Japan, and they'll tell you the Ninja weren't really saboteurs; the only time they would've used Disable Device would be to jam a door, which anyone can do. Sabotage and assasination wasn't their forte; it was guerilla warfare, which heretic's Shinobi does well. Sabotage just wasn't something they did. heretic does say this in a previous post, to me, no less. I might drop Unarmed Strike. That wouldn't be practical or historically accurate. Anyone in martial arts knows you train in unarmed combat before learning how to use weapons. Hell, most martial arts don't do weapon training until you make 1st dan. BTW, heretic, I have an idea for a feat. Since it's difficult taking all ten steps in a single path because of all the needed benefits from the others, maybe you could make a feat that lets you advance one step? Maybe have a pre-req of a few steps in a path before taking it, and allowing it up to 3 times, like with Martial Study. I'm not sure, really, but's it's something I just thought I'd pass it along. Have fun.
jeff-heikkinen 02-25-08, 03:22 AM	Be all that as it may, the reasons I would have for doing this have nothing to do with historical accuracy. I look for historical accuracy in history papers (and not even all of them, there being room for speculation in any academic discipline); looking for it in D&D is a fool's errand. That doesn't mean one can't draw inspiration from history; as far as that goes, nothing should be off limits. But where the rubber meets the road, I'm much more interested in what role the class fills in an adventuring party and in whether it is likely to give a player the character he or she wants to play than I am in whether it is true to the details of whatever source inspired it, whether that be a novel, another game, or a real historical organization. As far as "all" martial arts training beginning with unarmed combat, that would come as a surprise to most practitioners of martial arts, both historical and modern. Unless, of course, you subscribe to the common misconception that "martial arts" refers only to a relatively small group of mostly East Asian combat styles; but however widespread it may be, I think that's a silly way to use the phrase. Besides which, I'm not sure ninjas and martial-arts-in-the-narrow-sense are all that closely associated in the popular conception that is likely to be what any given player wants to emulate, whatever their historical links. (There's also the point that "knows how to fight unarmed" and "has Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat" are not the same any more than "knows how to fight with weapon X" and "has Weapon Specialization - X as a feat" are the same).
Hanzo187 02-28-08, 01:33 AM	Be all that as it may, the reasons I would have for doing this have nothing to do with historical accuracy. I look for historical accuracy in history papers (and not even all of them, there being room for speculation in any academic discipline); looking for it in D&D is a fool's errand. That doesn't mean one can't draw inspiration from history; as far as that goes, nothing should be off limits. But where the rubber meets the road, I'm much more interested in what role the class fills in an adventuring party and in whether it is likely to give a player the character he or she wants to play than I am in whether it is true to the details of whatever source inspired it, whether that be a novel, another game, or a real historical organization. I get where you're coming from, and as always, to each his own. Naturally, when I think Ninja, I think a person who moves in the shadows and can do all kinds of stealthy things. In addition, if I were making my own Ninja (which I already have.....three times, to my shame), I would include include the skills you mentioned. However, I always bear in mind that the classes I see are another person's vision, and thus, heretic's Shinobi is his vision of the Ninja (and a fairly accurate one, even with ToB). I actually hate houseruling changes to classes unless I think they are necessary (I've only found one, moving the CA Ninja's Evasion from 12th to 4th). As to role, the Shinobi comes off like a sublime version of the Scout, but with many obvious differences. Nonetheless, the role of the Scout and Shinobi seem a bit similar in that they're both scouts (duh!) and they have a knack for guerilla warfare, which the historical Ninja were good at. As far as "all" martial arts training beginning with unarmed combat, that would come as a surprise to most practitioners of martial arts, both historical and modern. Unless, of course, you subscribe to the common misconception that "martial arts" refers only to a relatively small group of mostly East Asian combat styles; but however widespread it may be, I think that's a silly way to use the phrase. Besides which, I'm not sure ninjas and martial-arts-in-the-narrow-sense are all that closely associated in the popular conception that is likely to be what any given player wants to emulate, whatever their historical links. (There's also the point that "knows how to fight unarmed" and "has Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat" are not the same any more than "knows how to fight with weapon X" and "has Weapon Specialization - X as a feat" are the same). I was careful with my words on this. I said "most" martial arts, not "all", and I when I say "martial arts", I refer to combat styles that combine elements of philosophy and understanding (that's obviously not what they were originally. They were meant to teach you how to fight off the enemy, but that's changed today). Examples would be Karate, Tang Soo Do, Hapkido, Tae Kwan Do, Savate, Russian Sambo, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, those kinds of martial arts. Most martial arts (at least today) taught unarmed combat before going onto weapons. Many martial arts stated that the weapon is never mastered until it becomes a part of you (aka you can use without it being a hindrance), so unarmed combat was likely done first because it was easiest. Don't forget, also, that while Samurai were good with weapons, they were well trained in Jujutsu, an unarmed martial art, so a case could be made that learning unarmed combat would be more efficient than beginning with weapons. Of course, from a flavor perspective, your interpretation of Improved Unarmed Strike could be right. However, the combatants I see today on TV, whether sport or military, are more than able to do lethal damage, which is what Improved Unarmed Strike signifies. Besides, if you could choke out someone without stabbing them in the back, you cause less noise and leave no blood. Nevertheless, what you say may be true. I've been wrong before, so I won't lose sleep if you're right about Improved Unarmed Strike. I know you won't, either, right or wrong.
jeff-heikkinen 02-28-08, 01:45 AM	Ultimately I'm with you on the to each his own thing. (Notice that right from the start, I said I'd lightly house-rule it if I were to use it, not that the class as written in the first post should be changed.) I believe each of us understands where the other is coming from, which is rare enough on these boards.
Hanzo187 03-02-08, 01:29 AM	Ultimately I'm with you on the to each his own thing. (Notice that right from the start, I said I'd lightly house-rule it if I were to use it, not that the class as written in the first post should be changed.) I believe each of us understands where the other is coming from, which is rare enough on these boards. No worries. I actually would like to add in what you what were talking about myself, but I don't like making even minor changes. It just makes me feel like I'm butchering someone else's work. I know most, if not all, people don't care, but I don't like it. It's just me. Also, I hate flame wars and trolling, so I try to be civil. Things like that **** me off to no end, so I'm not someone you'll have to worry about.
madmonk 03-06-08, 08:51 AM	I remember that once I designed a ninja with ability trees, similar to yours. But no-one was playing ninjas at the time, so it was forgotten. But it was by no means as good as yours! The idea of the Hidden Door discipline is one of the most original idea (and execution) for a ToB-inspired class. I also appreciate that one of your concerns was to allow shinobi to enter the different ninja PrC, which is something the CAdv's developers didn't. If time allows, I will try to to polish my old idea for the martial Sohei. By the way, any idea for a weapon of legacy? what about an example character? Edit: Maybe you should specify that some of the pats are progressions of the same ability, because I thought you could master 1 path and dabbe in the other, but you can only master one if you take all the steps in it. Also, since they are proficient in the katana, they can wield it 1-handed?
heretic888 03-30-08, 01:36 PM	3-30-08 Edited introductory text as well as the text for the abilities, races, alignment, and special entries for the shinobi. Shinobi no longer have an alignment restriction. Disable Device, Intimidate, Open Lock, and Search have been added to the shinobi's class skills. The shinobi's skill points per level have been increased to 8 + Int modifier. The shinobi's Will save progression has been reduced to low. The progression for the shinobi path class feature is now every odd-numbered level (1st, 3rd, 5th, and so on). The abilities of the shinobi paths have been largely changed and many now depend on your Charisma modifier. Shinobi gain trapfinding at 1st level. Veiled weaponry has replaced unarmed strike as one of the shinobi's 1st level class features. Shinobi now gain the AC bonus at 2nd level, like the swordsage. Shinobi now gain adaptive path at 8th and 16th level. Adaptive path is no longer a feat. Shinobi now gain a new capstone ability, veiled counterstrike, at 20th level. The code of conduct entry has been renamed to code of honor and its text has been edited to reflect loss of alignment restriction. The shinobi paths now have their own section below the main class section. The Veiled Saboteur feat now has Hidden Door Dodge as a prerequisite instead of Edge of Deception. The weapon text for the patient counter tactical option has been edited slightly.
Asurya 04-02-08, 10:17 AM	I have some complaints on the lattest release (this will follow the flow of your post): why this emphasis on Charisma? Apparently you reduce MAD on INT (whose focus made sense to me) but chose to improve on CHA. Dawn shield for example is just like the defensive side of the Skirmish ability of the Scout (CAdv) but even more situational why cap it? Diamond edge made more sense than Diamond will IMO: how do running help you to disbeleive an illusion for example? as for the cap, Paladin have their CHA bonus to all their saves, not gradual like yours. ok, my bad, Diamond edge just changed name and school. Please don't cap it: compare it to the other side of Skirmish (ref. above), it provides less damage (but helps you to touch, which is quite solid considering the medium BAB) and is further limited by the target HP status. this one is purely nitpick but I think it would be clearer to write each step of the path to immediately eyeball the progression. All it require is a little copy/paste and adding "=1" to "list" in your various "[ list ] [ * ] [ /list ]" to moderate my rant, I have to say that I read your work for quite some times now (since your Shinobi no bushi in fact) and like it, so I try to contribute (hopefully). as for what works: the basis is very good (lattest update didn't ruin everything ^^) Adaptive style as a class feature is a great addition. reducing Will to low progression was not that needed but does not strike me as unfair (this guys are suppose to have good WIS anyway) maybe a middle term is the key: the medium save progression (lvl*0.4+1, begins at 1 tops at 9) not used in DnD but D20 compliant the SP bump was sure a good thing, as was the addition of Trapfinding, now a Shinobi can take the Rogue slot in a party. You simplified things folding Midnight Swiftness and the 4 steps of Nightstrider in one, which is good. Shifting Midnight this one is really good, movement options are really nice, and Non detection is cheap at 19th level anyway so you can have it permanenced on you.
heretic888 04-02-08, 01:17 PM	Hi Asurya, I'm happy to hear you've been following my work for so long and I appreciate the feedback you've provided. That being said, I think it is important to take in the class as a whole and see how it compares to other, similarly-themed classes. Specifically, I intended the Shinobi to balanced against the Rogue (PHB), Scout (CV), and Swordsage (ToB). So, something like the old diamond edge ability (which granted an insight bonus to attack and damage if you moved 10 feet) just completely dwarfed anything the Swordsage gained and, while comparable to the Scout's skirmish ability, it is important to remember that the Shinobi gains a full repertoire of maneuvers and stances while the Scout does not. This was also part of the reason why I increased the class's reliance on Charisma. Compared to the Swordsage, the Shinobi gains some very potent abilities (especially if you compare them both at 1st level) so I slightly increased the MAD to balance the two classes. Still, because these bonuses are capped the way they are (to a maximum of +5 at 17th level), Charisma doesn't have to be maxed the way that Dexterity and Wisdom are likely to be. Also, I think it just fits to have Charisma being somewhat essential to the ninja mythos (whereas before it was second only to Strength in being a dump stat for the class). In regards to your other concerns, I wanted to make each of the Shinobi Paths more thematically consistent this time around. When you have Diamond Clarity with half its abilities about refining perception and willpower but the other half increasing attack options while moving, it comes across as a little schizophrenic. So, I decided to have Diamond Clarity devoted fully to the "Zen Warrior" motif within the ninja mythos. Now, while its true the Paladin gains a flat bonus to all saves, the Paladin doesn't get things like Evasion or Immovable Spirit or a permanent true seeing. So, I think it balances out. I hope I addressed all of your concerns. Thanks again for your input. Laterz.
Asurya 04-03-08, 08:46 AM	I had time before me, so I did the format I spoke about in my last post Dawn's Eclipse You have taken steps to embody the principles of the Setting Sun discipline. While you are in a Setting Sun stance and wearing light armor or no armor, you gain the following abilities. Dawn's Shield (Ex): If you move at least 10 feet on your turn, you gain a +1 (or your Charisma bonus, whichever is less) insight bonus to your Armor Class against attacks of opportunity for 1 round. Evasion (Ex): You can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If you make a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals damage on a successful save, you instead take no damage. The Dawn's Shield bonus improves to +2 (or your Charisma bonus, whichever is less). Dawnstrider (Ex): You can move at your normal speed with no penalty to your Balance and Tumble checks. The Dawn's Shield bonus improves to +3 (or your Charisma bonus, whichever is less). Improved Evasion (Ex): You gain the benefit of improved evasion. You still take no damage if you make a successful Reflex save against an attack, and even if you fail the Reflex save, you take only half damage from the attack. If you are helpless, you do not gain the benefit of improved evasion. The Dawn's Shield bonus improves to +4 (or your Charisma bonus, whichever is less). Dawn's Rise (Ex): If you make a successful Reflex save against a harmful attack or effect, you can take an immediate 5-foot step as a free action. Moving in this manner consumes one of your attacks of opportunity in the current round. You cannot move in this manner if you have no attacks of opportunity remaining. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The Dawn's Shield bonus improves to +5 (or your Charisma bonus, whichever is less). Dawn's Release (Su): As long as you are not flat-footed, you are considered permanently under the effect of a Freedom of movement spell. Diamond Clarity You have taken steps to embody the principles of the Diamond Mind discipline. While you are in a Diamond Mind stance and wearing light armor or no armor, you gain the following abilities. Diamond Will (Ex): As long as you are not flat-footed, you gain a +1 (or your Charisma bonus, whichever is less) insight bonus on your Will saves. Uncanny Dodge (Ex): You gain the ability to react to danger before your senses would normally allow you to do so. You retain your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if you are caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, you still lose your Dexterity bonus to AC if you are immobilized. See the rogue class feature, page 50 of the Player's Handbook. The Diamond Will bonus improves to +2 (or your Charisma bonus, whichever is less). Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): You can no longer be flanked; you can react to opponents on opposite sides of you as easily as you can react to a single attacker. See the rogue class feature, page 50 of the Player's Handbook. The Diamond Will bonus improves to +3 (or your Charisma bonus, whichever is less). Immovable Spirit (Ex): If you succeed on a Will save against an attack that would normally produce a lesser effect on a successful save (such as a spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Will partial), you instead negate the effect. The Diamond Will bonus improves to +4 (or your Charisma bonus, whichever is less). Greater Immovable Spirit (Ex): At 8th step, you still suffer no effect if you make a successful Will save against an attack, and even if you fail the Will save, you incur only a partial effect (as described on spells with a saving throw entry of Will half or Will partial). The Diamond Will bonus improves to +5 (or your Charisma bonus, whichever is less). Diamond Sight (Su) As long as you are not flat-footed, you are considered permanently under the effect of a true seeing spell. Shrouded Midnight You have taken steps to embody the principles of the Shadow Hand discipline. While you are in a Shadow Hand stance and wearing light armor or no armor, you gain the following abilities. Opportunity's Edge (Ex): As long as you are wielding nothing but a single favored weapon of the Shadow Hand discipline, you gain an insight bonus +1 (or your Charisma bonus, whichever is less) to your melee attack and damage rolls whenever your opponent's current hit points are less than 1/2 of his full normal hit points. No Trace (Ex): You can add 1/2 your shinobi level (rounded down) to the DC of Survival checks made to track you. The Opportunity's Edge bonus improves to +2 (or your Charisma bonus, whichever is less). Nightstrider (Ex): You can move at your normal speed with no penalty to your Hide and Move Silently checks. The Opportunity's Edge bonus improves to +3 (or your Charisma bonus, whichever is less). Camouflage (Ex): As long as you are in a low-light environment, you can use the Hide skill even if you don’t have cover or concealment. The Opportunity's Edge bonus improves to +4 (or your Charisma bonus, whichever is less). Hide In Plain Sight (Ex): As long as you are in a low-light environment, you can use the Hide skill even while under observation. The Opportunity's Edge bonus improves to +5 (or your Charisma bonus, whichever is less). Shifting Midnight (Su): If an opponent makes a melee or ranged attack against you, as an immediate action you can magically slip between spaces as if using the spell dimension door. Your caster level for this effect is equal to your shinobi level. This ability can be used once per encounter. Truth and Falsehood You have taken steps to embody the principles of the Hidden Door discipline. While you are in a Hidden Door stance and wearing light armor or no armor, you gain the following abilities. Hidden Strike (Ex): As long as you are wielding nothing but a single favored weapon of the Hidden Door discipline, you gain a +1 (or your Charisma bonus, whichever is less) insight bonus to your melee attack and damage rolls whenever your opponent is flat-footed or otherwise denied his Dexterity bonus to AC. Improved Misdirection (Ex): You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat or to create a diversion to hide as a move action. If you have both this ability and the Improved Feint feat, then you also gain a +4 bonus on Bluff checks made to feint in combat. The Hidden Strike bonus improves to +2 (or your Charisma bonus, whichever is less). Swift Misdirection (Ex): You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat or to create a diversion to hide as a swift action. The Hidden Strike bonus improves to +3 (or your Charisma bonus, whichever is less). Patient Assault (Ex): If you choose to delay your initiative count by at least one turn, then any foe becomes flat-footed against your next melee attack. You cannot use this ability if you have the last turn on the initiative count. This ability can be used once per encounter. The Hidden Strike bonus improves to +4 (or your Charisma bonus, whichever is less). Feinting Counter (Ex): If an opponent makes a melee attack against you and misses, you can make a Bluff check to feint him in combat as a free action. Feinting in this manner consumes one of your attacks of opportunity in the current round. You cannot feint in this manner if you have no attacks of opportunity remaining. The Hidden Strike bonus improves to +5 (or your Charisma bonus, whichever is less). Master of Deception (Su): If an opponent makes a melee attack against you and misses, as an immediate action you can become invisible and create an illusory double of yourself as if using the spell mislead. Your caster level for this effect is equal to your shinobi level. This ability can be used once per encounter. You did answer my concerns (I see the logic behind your choices), but I still don't like the cap (partly because I'm a firm believer of CHA as dump stat :D) +5 is still 20 in CHA, even considering +4 cape ('cause you won't pump too much money on a secondary stat, as opposed to, say, DEX) you still have to put 16 (10pts) in it, with a 28pt-buy (like when I play/DM) it's a pretty steep price.
Hanzo187 04-04-08, 09:40 PM	Wow. I feel so inferior right now. You have made an incredible class, and I didn't think you could improve it any more than you could. I found your capstone interesting. I found it a pretty viable way of showing your Shinobi reaching the pinnacle of his martial skill. I'm not shocked you bumped up the SP and added those skills. In this regard, it truly seperates itself from the other martial adepts by being a skill-monkey along the Rogue's lines without actually being a Rogue. Besides that, it allows you to explore the skill-monkey route without SA, so it would be interesting to see how it works out. If there's something I don't care for, it's that I'm not too keen on you making Charisma important. Not that it shouldn't be so (the awe- and fear-inspiring ninja stalking the shadows, kind of like Batman, always springs to mind for me), but it puts the Ninja into serious MAD territory. Now, Dex, Wis, Cha, and Int are important. Maybe that's why you knocked up the SP, but it really get MAD on par with the Monk (which is one reason, among many, why it's not held in high regard), maybe more so. On the other hand, what if you moved the AC bonus to Cha? It could work in the same way as the Wis bonus, but you could call it Aura of Deception instead, and it would at least knock off the need for so many stats being high. You could also have a feat (or class feature at a later level) letting you apply Cha to Will saves. It's always an idea, and I do like the idea of seeing a Ninja make someone quiver in fear, dreading the moment the Ninja finally strikes. Gives me shivers. Cha aside, this is still really cool. Ya done good.
Ilmryn Glannath 04-05-08, 09:57 PM	I am curious; since the Kusari-gama and Chain are somewhat similar weapons, is there a reason that the sickled chain is not listed in the weapon list for the Hidden Door Discipline? Btw, this class is awesome and much more interesting compaired to the Hollywood inspired CA Ninja. Nice work! ;)
Asurya 04-07-08, 09:20 AM	quote Hanzo187: You could also have a feat (or class feature at a later level) letting you apply Cha to Will saves. err... Diamond will (Diamond clarity path) does just that already. :P
Ilmryn Glannath 04-07-08, 11:27 PM	Ah, I see. My bad. Guess it's the chain then.
Hanzo187 04-09-08, 04:56 PM	err... Diamond will (Diamond clarity path) does just that already. Ugh, you're right. Must've rolled a 1 on my Spot check. :) I withdraw my Cha bonus to Will, in that case. Cha to AC still stands because dawn's shield only affects AoO's, though it is likely fine as is.
heretic888 04-20-08, 11:41 AM	4-20-08 At Asurya's request, I have significantly altered the visual layout of the class (including the two tables) so that it is more concise and user friendly. Chain, kaginawa, and kusarigama have been removed from the shinobi's weapon proficiencies. Blowgun, jitte, naginata, composite shortbow, and short sword have been added to the shinobi's weapon proficiencies. It now costs an immediate action for shinobi to recover an expended maneuver and they may not initiate a maneuver nor change their stance while doing so. The shinobi's AC bonus is now keyed to Charisma instead of Wisdom. This was done to reduce the class dependency on Wisdom, as well as to further distinguish it from the swordsage. Dawn's shield, diamond will, opportunity's edge, and hidden strike are no longer capped by your Charisma bonus. In addition, opportunity's edge and hidden strike no longer have weapon prerequisites for their use. Dawn's shield now grants an AC bonus against all attacks instead of just attacks of opportunity. Adaptive path has been removed and replaced with adaptive stance at 8th and 16th level. The save DCs for the shifting blow, stunning blow, and veiled strike maneuvers are now keyed to Dexterity instead of Wisdom. The bonus damage for the flowing strike, strike of subtlety, and body and weapon are one maneuvers is now keyed to Charisma instead of Wisdom. In addition, the damage multipliers for strike of subtlety and body and weapon are one have been increased to reflect appropriate numbers for their respective levels. The bonus from the moving target stance is now keyed to Charisma instead of Wisdom. In addition, this stance now allows you to ignore the associated penalties for accelerated tumbling. I would like to thank everyone for their feedback and contributions so far. Laterz.
Asurya 04-21-08, 12:12 PM	quote heretic888: At Asurya's request :embarrass while I'm at style nitpick, the two tables could be merged into one, if you trash the 4 unneeded columns (BAB, Fort, Ref, and Will). As before, I'll post an example when I have time so you can choose which you prefer without having to do it yourself (not hard but time consuming). // when I have time In fact, if I may digress, I never quite understood why WotC continue(d) to reprint these 4 columns when all is needed is 2 lines... As a computer programmer, the only use of repetition of same information is when this information can change (compared to references). Yet on occurences where it could have been useful (Scout Fort save & Swashbuckler Ref save IIRC) they simply reprinted the same old values and worked out the values as bonus through class features... Anyway, digression over. now for the review: hooray for removing the cap :D hooray for the near-skirmish-Dawn shield :D the recovering cost is weird: the whole point of immediate action is to be taken out of your turn. Why don't you make it a swift? This has the added benefit of covering the 'no change stance' thing (and the 'initiate boost maneuvers' too) without adding anything (as changing a stance is also a swift action and you have only one). Besides, this forces the player to think carefully before initiating a counter maneuver as the immediate it costs him also burns the swift of his next turn (so no recovering just after you use a counter). now that you ruled WIS out of the equation, you should consider to raise Will back to high. the CHA orientation sadden me much (you know, good old times: Flowing string feat FTW!), but I already said that. (in fact I really like you change log for just that: if I ever play your class (as a PC or NPC) I will choose a downgraded version to my liking (granted that the version chosen is good balance wise))
heretic888 04-21-08, 07:13 PM	while I'm at style nitpick, the two tables could be merged into one, if you trash the 4 unneeded columns (BAB, Fort, Ref, and Will). As before, I'll post an example when I have time so you can choose which you prefer without having to do it yourself (not hard but time consuming). Hi Asurya, While I understand what you're saying here, I think I'll stick with WotC's way of formatting their classes just for consistency's sake. ;) now for the review: hooray for removing the cap :D hooray for the near-skirmish-Dawn shield :D Glad you liked them. :D the recovering cost is weird: the whole point of immediate action is to be taken out of your turn. Why don't you make it a swift? This has the added benefit of covering the 'no change stance' thing (and the 'initiate boost maneuvers' too) without adding anything (as changing a stance is also a swift action and you have only one). The advantage of making it cost an immediate action is that a shinobi can refresh a maneuver whenever he attacks a flat-footed target, whether on his turn or with an AoO. It provides a bit more versatility in that regard when compared to the warblade's recovery method. Besides, this forces the player to think carefully before initiating a counter maneuver as the immediate it costs him also burns the swift of his next turn (so no recovering just after you use a counter). This would have the same effect (i.e., think hard before using a counter) whether it was a swift action or immediate action. The main difference is your character could recover a maneuver out of his turn if it came up. now that you ruled WIS out of the equation, you should consider to raise Will back to high. Nope. ;) Balance has to be taken into consideration. The natural "measuring stick" against which the shinobi will be measured would be three classes: the rogue, scout, and swordsage. The shinobi already has more hit points than the rogue, an equal number of skill points and trapfinding, as well as 4 maneuvers known and 1 stance known over the rogue. A high Will save on top of that would be too much. Compared to the swordsage, the shinobi already has more skill points and a superior recovery method. These two are probably more closely balanced than the shinobi and rogue (although UMD and TWF sneak attacks probably close the gap there), but I still feel a high Will save at no cost would totally dwarf the swordsage. In any event, shinobi who desire a high Will save can take the diamond clarity path to net a +11 base bonus by 20th level. You could also take the Force of Personality feat from Complete Adventurer to use your Charisma bonus instead of your Wisdom bonus for Will saves. the CHA orientation sadden me much (you know, good old times: Flowing string feat FTW!), but I already said that. Well, my basis for doing this was twofold. Firstly, I notice that every martial adept class has a tendency to be dependent on one physical score and one mental score (I don't count Constitution into this since *everybody* is dependent on that). Warblades are Strength + Intelligence, crusaders are Strength + Charisma, swordsages are Dexterity + Wisdom, and so on. I wanted to make the shinobi distinct from these other classes, which is why I opted for Dexterity + Charisma in his case (and Charisma *is* the key modifier for deceptive skills like Bluff and Disguise). ... incidentally, Jaerom Darkwind's blade scholar seems to fill the Dexterity + Intelligence niche. ;) Secondly, the way things are set up now makes Wisdom and Charisma both desirable scores for shinobi characters but neither are *necessary* to play the class (whereas before Wisdom was actually needed to do a shinobi); you could get by with an excellent Dexterity score alone. Wisdom improves a shinobi's Will saves, the save DCs for a few Shadow Hand maneuvers, and the skill checks for Listen, Spot, Sense Motive, Profession, and Survival. Charisma improves a shinobi's AC, the save DCs for a few Hidden Door maneuvers, and the skill checks for Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Disguise, and Gather Information. While Charisma is probably slightly more desirable overall, neither are really *needed* to play a shinobi. For example, Diamond Mind counters can cover the decreased Will saves from a lower Wisdom while Hidden Door counters can more than compensate for a decreased AC from a lower Charisma. Only Dexterity is truly required to survive with the class (although a better-than-average Constitution is nice, too). By setting it up this way, I've actually taken away some of the MAD. Laterz.
LordArchaon 04-22-08, 10:14 PM	Wow. INSTANT FAVORITE CLASS. Only two suggestions to make it even more perfect IMO... Add some power to Diamond Clarity path, something related to blindsense maybe, early on, or half way. Modify the Hidden Door discipline a bit so that it becomes a little less focused on damage, or at least normal damage. I don't know, but I think it could benefit from some 4e things, like sliding/pushing enemies, or some elementalism, some force damage, or some more hindering conditions in place of damage... Just to differentiate it you know, I just think it needs a bit more character. It would be very good if for example it could be focused on illusory images, smoke/darkness conjurations, and other shinobi things of this types... :)
heretic888 04-27-08, 05:28 PM	Wow. INSTANT FAVORITE CLASS. Hi LordArchaon, Thanks. I'm glad you like the class. :) Only two suggestions to make it even more perfect IMO... Add some power to Diamond Clarity path, something related to blindsense maybe, early on, or half way. The Diamond Mind discipline already has a 5th-level stance called hearing the air, which grants your character blindsense and a bonus to Listen checks. I prefer to avoid such redundancies in my class design which is why, for example, I originally removed invisibility abilities from the class early on (which Shadow Hand already provides via maneuvers and feats). Modify the Hidden Door discipline a bit so that it becomes a little less focused on damage, or at least normal damage. I don't know, but I think it could benefit from some 4e things, like sliding/pushing enemies, or some elementalism, some force damage, or some more hindering conditions in place of damage... Just to differentiate it you know, I just think it needs a bit more character. It would be very good if for example it could be focused on illusory images, smoke/darkness conjurations, and other shinobi things of this types... :) In all truthfulness, less than half of the Hidden Door discipline's maneuvers are focused on straight damage. A majority of the counters involve things like disarming an opponent if he misses, gaining an AC bonus against a single attacks, forcing attack rerolls with a penalty, gaining total concealment for an extended duration, and so on. Additionally, four of the strikes incur penalties or debuffs (stun, blindness, prone, etc) to their targets. The distinctive "character" of Hidden Door is supposed to be an anti-defender style that tactically "punishes" foes for attacking the shinobi. ;) Thanks again for your feedback. Laterz.
LordArchaon 04-27-08, 05:47 PM	Hey on second thought... Yes, it's pretty all right. I hope you consider converting to 4e when time comes! It would actually be better if tied to the future Shadow power source, but it's going to be too much in the future to wait... :) We'll see.
heretic888 04-27-08, 05:53 PM	Hey on second thought... Yes, it's pretty all right. I hope you consider converting to 4e when time comes! It would actually be better if tied to the future Shadow power source, but it's gpoing to be too much in the future to wait... :) We'll see. Hi LordArchaon, Based on what I have seen of the Rogue class and Shadow Assassin paragon path so far, I don't anticipate I will create a new class for the Shinobi in 4E. They seem to have most of the bases covered and are a considerable improvement over their 3E counterparts. That being said, I may create new build options and/or new new powers for the Rogue to make it more ninja-esque. I'll have to see how the whole product turns out, though. Laterz.
turalisj 08-20-08, 12:06 PM	So, class beink done? [/eatern european accent]