The Oriental Side of the Great Gnome Debate [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Oriental Side of the Great Gnome Debate [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RoyalBlueEyes
04-20-08, 11:51 PM So, for some awful reason, I ventured into the General Forums and they have The Great Gome Debate of '08.
I was wondering were we, the oriental campaigners stand in our positions on the lack of Gnome in 4e's PHB? Do we care? Are we even going to switch?

Anyway, reason I ask, is that in my homebrewed Rokugan, the PHB classes mostly reside as tribal influences on the Empire of Rokugan; where (stole the idea from the OA) Gnomes reside in the mountains studying with the Dragon Monks and Niten Masters.

How does that effect the debate?

Well, the majority of negative responses to the Gnome are that it's niche is filled (geographically and statistically) by all other races. But in OA, they feel that all of the races have their own geographical and political niche.
The Gnome favor the Dragon Clan in respects to what their niche is.
IF Rokugan were the campaign setting, Gnomes would have their proper place, methinks.

How about you all?
narukagami
04-21-08, 12:54 AM Well, being one of the only people who ever regularly posts here I guess I'm inclined to give my 2 bits.

Speaking only for myself and probably most of my group: I don't honestly care that they're getting removed as a core race. Gnomes have never played an important role in any campaign I've ever run, nor in any campaign anyone in my group has run. I don't recall anyone ever playing as a gnome, nor has there ever even been any gnome NPCs, not even unnamed gnome townsfolk. We've never even cared enough for the gnome to even decide if they actually exist or not in our games. They've just been completely forgotten.
Cherubaddon
04-21-08, 09:05 AM Speaking only for myself and probably most of my group: I don't honestly care that they're getting removed as a core race. Gnomes have never played an important role in any campaign I've ever run, nor in any campaign anyone in my group has run. I don't recall anyone ever playing as a gnome, nor has there ever even been any gnome NPCs, not even unnamed gnome townsfolk. We've never even cared enough for the gnome to even decide if they actually exist or not in our games. They've just been completely forgotten.

That's exactly how it works in our group, too. However, just as I still allow some 3e races (like the OA races, as I don't have the update), if somebody absolutely wanted to play a gnome, more power to him. But it's not like it ever happened.
The Ubbergeek
04-21-08, 02:41 PM Random poundering - would Gnomes make a nice alternative to the oriental dwarves (Koruburo?)?
heretic888
04-21-08, 07:19 PM Hi RoyalBlueEyes,

I don't really care, honestly. I like both tieflings and dragonborn more than gnomes.

Laterz.
RoyalBlueEyes
04-21-08, 10:54 PM While I respect both of your opinions on the topic, I must ask then: What makes Gnomes so distasteful?
I feel that removing them from the core selection, even if temporarily, is ultimately a waste. The major complaint is that Gnomes were combinations of Elves and Dwarves; with a side of Halflings. But they were better at magic (innately anyway), they were crafters of alchemy (instead of blacksmithing). Elves made better Sorcerers and Wizards but were also shown to be unparalleled swordsmen or archers. Thus making them paragons of magic would be railroading them into one of the caster classes (and not everyone who read LotR wants that). Gnomes on the other hand are known for nothing but magic, specifically illusions.

But where does all of this come in on the Oriental Boards?
If you were to toss in all of the Core Classes into a generic OA/Rokugan setting; the Gnomes, for some odd reason in my mind, seem to fit better in the Dragon Clan, atop the Dragon Mountains in league with the Ise Zumi and the Niten Masters.
The Gnomes seem to have found their niche: campaign settings.
Gnomes can be Niten Masters, Ise Zumi, Steam Punk Builders, or Craftsmen.
Why then, is it that Gnomes "have no niche" when it comes to developers?

The difference between Gnomes and Halflings: Gnomes are wanderlusting.
In Oriental Settings: Gnomes aren't forced into Rogue, Ninja, or other classes befitting the gaijin and ronin-types; like the halflings.

And so I must conclude in saying I applaud you two; Cherub and Narakugami, for not being adverse to the idea of players playing gnomes, even though you aren't really strapped into using Gnomes.
Ultimately, I think the tradition behind gnomes, their fall or lack thereof in popularity notwithstanding, denotes that they should be given more priority than the Eladrin Elves.
RoyalBlueEyes
04-21-08, 10:57 PM Random poundering - would Gnomes make a nice alternative to the oriental dwarves (Koruburo?)?

Not exactly. Korobukuru are not exactly stated to be magic-users IIRC. They are more the peaceful farmers (or are they more militant than their dwarven counterparts, Narak?)
The Ubbergeek
04-21-08, 11:34 PM Ultimately, I think the tradition behind gnomes, their fall or lack thereof in popularity notwithstanding, denotes that they should be given more priority than the Eladrin Elves.

Sad for you, but.. No. if at least for the reason elves are popular and have a fanclub.

And I actually like gnomes. if even I never played one yet.

Thank for the remark.
Count Arioch the 28th
04-22-08, 07:16 AM I've used gnomes as prominent NPCs in my game. As a result, all of my players hate gnomes with a passion.

I've just never put them in an Asian-flavored setting, because I'm not aware of gnomes being in Asian mythology (if people more learned than I am knows otherwise, I wouldn't mind hearing about it though.)
The Ubbergeek
04-22-08, 03:37 PM Not to derail... but... The problem that you indirectly bring there is that also, in 'oriental' settings making... do we want something close to real myths, stories and all, or something who is inspired and more imagination-based?

Kara-Tur or Sarlona?

(sorry if I am not clear there)
Joni-san
04-23-08, 08:47 PM I'm not aware of any Gnomes in Asian mythology.

I do like the Eberron Gnomes however. One of the rare settings to give Gnomes, Half-Elves and Half-Orcs a real role and place in the setting.

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/8135/avatar398725sl1.png
-Joni
Kineon_War
04-30-08, 01:59 AM I've had a gnome bard in the party in the last campaign we were playing.
A perfect combination of useless race and useless class.
However, as the DM, I allowed it because I try not to interfere in the player's character ideas too much.

Also in a game that that I played in a party of non-good rogues, my character was a human rogue (drunken bum) and I decided he would be racist against gnomes and commit hate crimes against them.
That was kinda fun for a bit but my guy was always too drunk and got stabbed by a gnome while I was trying to fight him with a frying pan.
So there was some humour in it as well.
PuppyKhan
05-13-08, 05:04 PM I'm not aware of any Gnomes in Asian mythology.

That would really depend on what you consider to be Asian. If you are referring to the Orient and specifically meaning China, Japan, and maybe Korea, then no. But if you are considering all of Asia, then look to the north and northwestern part of Asia where live many Russians and you will find the Russian elf to be the D&D gnome in most respects.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RoyalBlueEyes 04-20-08, 11:51 PM	So, for some awful reason, I ventured into the General Forums and they have The Great Gome Debate of '08. I was wondering were we, the oriental campaigners stand in our positions on the lack of Gnome in 4e's PHB? Do we care? Are we even going to switch? Anyway, reason I ask, is that in my homebrewed Rokugan, the PHB classes mostly reside as tribal influences on the Empire of Rokugan; where (stole the idea from the OA) Gnomes reside in the mountains studying with the Dragon Monks and Niten Masters. How does that effect the debate? Well, the majority of negative responses to the Gnome are that it's niche is filled (geographically and statistically) by all other races. But in OA, they feel that all of the races have their own geographical and political niche. The Gnome favor the Dragon Clan in respects to what their niche is. IF Rokugan were the campaign setting, Gnomes would have their proper place, methinks. How about you all?
narukagami 04-21-08, 12:54 AM	Well, being one of the only people who ever regularly posts here I guess I'm inclined to give my 2 bits. Speaking only for myself and probably most of my group: I don't honestly care that they're getting removed as a core race. Gnomes have never played an important role in any campaign I've ever run, nor in any campaign anyone in my group has run. I don't recall anyone ever playing as a gnome, nor has there ever even been any gnome NPCs, not even unnamed gnome townsfolk. We've never even cared enough for the gnome to even decide if they actually exist or not in our games. They've just been completely forgotten.
Cherubaddon 04-21-08, 09:05 AM	Speaking only for myself and probably most of my group: I don't honestly care that they're getting removed as a core race. Gnomes have never played an important role in any campaign I've ever run, nor in any campaign anyone in my group has run. I don't recall anyone ever playing as a gnome, nor has there ever even been any gnome NPCs, not even unnamed gnome townsfolk. We've never even cared enough for the gnome to even decide if they actually exist or not in our games. They've just been completely forgotten. That's exactly how it works in our group, too. However, just as I still allow some 3e races (like the OA races, as I don't have the update), if somebody absolutely wanted to play a gnome, more power to him. But it's not like it ever happened.
The Ubbergeek 04-21-08, 02:41 PM	Random poundering - would Gnomes make a nice alternative to the oriental dwarves (Koruburo?)?
heretic888 04-21-08, 07:19 PM	Hi RoyalBlueEyes, I don't really care, honestly. I like both tieflings and dragonborn more than gnomes. Laterz.
RoyalBlueEyes 04-21-08, 10:54 PM	While I respect both of your opinions on the topic, I must ask then: What makes Gnomes so distasteful? I feel that removing them from the core selection, even if temporarily, is ultimately a waste. The major complaint is that Gnomes were combinations of Elves and Dwarves; with a side of Halflings. But they were better at magic (innately anyway), they were crafters of alchemy (instead of blacksmithing). Elves made better Sorcerers and Wizards but were also shown to be unparalleled swordsmen or archers. Thus making them paragons of magic would be railroading them into one of the caster classes (and not everyone who read LotR wants that). Gnomes on the other hand are known for nothing but magic, specifically illusions. But where does all of this come in on the Oriental Boards? If you were to toss in all of the Core Classes into a generic OA/Rokugan setting; the Gnomes, for some odd reason in my mind, seem to fit better in the Dragon Clan, atop the Dragon Mountains in league with the Ise Zumi and the Niten Masters. The Gnomes seem to have found their niche: campaign settings. Gnomes can be Niten Masters, Ise Zumi, Steam Punk Builders, or Craftsmen. Why then, is it that Gnomes "have no niche" when it comes to developers? The difference between Gnomes and Halflings: Gnomes are wanderlusting. In Oriental Settings: Gnomes aren't forced into Rogue, Ninja, or other classes befitting the gaijin and ronin-types; like the halflings. And so I must conclude in saying I applaud you two; Cherub and Narakugami, for not being adverse to the idea of players playing gnomes, even though you aren't really strapped into using Gnomes. Ultimately, I think the tradition behind gnomes, their fall or lack thereof in popularity notwithstanding, denotes that they should be given more priority than the Eladrin Elves.
RoyalBlueEyes 04-21-08, 10:57 PM	Random poundering - would Gnomes make a nice alternative to the oriental dwarves (Koruburo?)? Not exactly. Korobukuru are not exactly stated to be magic-users IIRC. They are more the peaceful farmers (or are they more militant than their dwarven counterparts, Narak?)
The Ubbergeek 04-21-08, 11:34 PM	Ultimately, I think the tradition behind gnomes, their fall or lack thereof in popularity notwithstanding, denotes that they should be given more priority than the Eladrin Elves. Sad for you, but.. No. if at least for the reason elves are popular and have a fanclub. And I actually like gnomes. if even I never played one yet. Thank for the remark.
Count Arioch the 28th 04-22-08, 07:16 AM	I've used gnomes as prominent NPCs in my game. As a result, all of my players hate gnomes with a passion. I've just never put them in an Asian-flavored setting, because I'm not aware of gnomes being in Asian mythology (if people more learned than I am knows otherwise, I wouldn't mind hearing about it though.)
The Ubbergeek 04-22-08, 03:37 PM	Not to derail... but... The problem that you indirectly bring there is that also, in 'oriental' settings making... do we want something close to real myths, stories and all, or something who is inspired and more imagination-based? Kara-Tur or Sarlona? (sorry if I am not clear there)
Joni-san 04-23-08, 08:47 PM	I'm not aware of any Gnomes in Asian mythology. I do like the Eberron Gnomes however. One of the rare settings to give Gnomes, Half-Elves and Half-Orcs a real role and place in the setting. http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/8135/avatar398725sl1.png -Joni
Kineon_War 04-30-08, 01:59 AM	I've had a gnome bard in the party in the last campaign we were playing. A perfect combination of useless race and useless class. However, as the DM, I allowed it because I try not to interfere in the player's character ideas too much. Also in a game that that I played in a party of non-good rogues, my character was a human rogue (drunken bum) and I decided he would be racist against gnomes and commit hate crimes against them. That was kinda fun for a bit but my guy was always too drunk and got stabbed by a gnome while I was trying to fight him with a frying pan. So there was some humour in it as well.
PuppyKhan 05-13-08, 05:04 PM	I'm not aware of any Gnomes in Asian mythology. That would really depend on what you consider to be Asian. If you are referring to the Orient and specifically meaning China, Japan, and maybe Korea, then no. But if you are considering all of Asia, then look to the north and northwestern part of Asia where live many Russians and you will find the Russian elf to be the D&D gnome in most respects.