Tripping Polearm (OA only): Any? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Tripping Polearm (OA only): Any? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Polaris
09-15-07, 10:41 AM Everyone,

I am playing a ranger-monk in an Oriental flavored campaign, and unknown to me (until the first day), I didn't know that the DM was using ONLY the weapons in Oriental Adventures. I was told it would be an "Oriental Flavored campaign using Core+complete books".

I am seriously annoyed because I wanted my monk to wield a guisarme (a tripping polearm), and according to the base write-up in OA, there doesn't seem to be any.

However, after less than an hour of research of my own I found an entire class of Japanese tripping polearms called kama-yari.

OK...are there tripping polearms in Oriental Adventures? If so (and IMHO there should be), where I can I find them and what stats do they use...and finally how do I convince my DM?

Thanks in advance.

-Polaris
Thakowsaizmu
09-15-07, 03:09 PM The weapons in the OA book are specific weapons found mostly in China / Japan. However, there are many weapons that are equivalent to weapons found in the PHB, all one needs to do is rename the weapon. A guisarme could easily be called a kamayari, and in one of my books it infact is. (They also say to use the guisarme as a guandao, but that is wrong, it should be more like a glaive.) So not only should it be availible, but you don't need new stats for the weapon. Flails also existed, and can make trip attacks. A three-section staff or a lashing staff are pretty close in stats to a flail and are both Chinese weapons. I know that there are stats for a three-section staff, though they aren't very good, so unless your DM would allow you to change them, I'd go with a lashing staff and use the heavy flail stats. Also, if you want something more like a sword, I'd go with the Tiger Hook Swords (a personal favourite. I do own a set of these fine weapons.) The stats can be found in a dragon magazine, though if those are not allowed or you haven't access to them they can easily be used as a Khopesh, though you may want to treat the offhand one as light because they are designed to be used as a pair.
Lashing Staff:http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/martialartsmart_1964_134737993
Three-section Staff:http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/martialartsmart_1964_134243843
Tiger Hook Swords:http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/martialartsmart_1964_135503481
Granted those last two are not polearms, but they are tripping weapons. Also, that isn't a great picture of the Tiger Hook Swords, they look a bit... dull in that one, but it was the first one I found.
The_Shaman
09-18-07, 06:43 AM In other words: Arms and Equipment Guide FTW!
Polaris
09-18-07, 11:08 AM In other words: Arms and Equipment Guide FTW!

Thanks. You have to understand that I wasn't told the Arms and Equipment Guide would be part of the allowed books....but it's certainly the place to find the weapon.

-Polaris
Polaris
09-18-07, 01:08 PM Guys,

Unbelievable. Un-freaking-believable. Thanks for your help, but even with an exact cite from the Arms and Equipment Guide (not to mention the sources I already dredged up), my DM is insisting that a Guisarme/Kamayari is an exotic weapon. I guess he doesn't like the fact that a Monk with it can trip at 10' and 5', but Jimminy Christmas.....that's what Monks do! (Taking advantage of polearms is one of the few things Monks do well over other martial classes.) I am already paying through the snout by not only being a monk but by taking a non-monk level which hurts.

*SIGH*

Thanks for you help. Time to rethink my involvement in the game. IMHO if the DM is going to be unreasonable about this little stuff, then suddenly I am worried about the big stuff.

-Polaris
Thakowsaizmu
09-18-07, 03:05 PM my DM is insisting that a Guisarme/Kamayari is an exotic weapon.
Does your DM know that in D&D exotic doesn't mean "not from here", it means "requires special training above and beyond that of simple and martial weapons"? Because I've gotten into similar scuffles with DMs saying that a Naginata is exotic for a European style character (I wasn't using the Naginata, my Girlfriend was, but I argued on her behalf). Martial weapons are martial weapons regardless of what you want to call them.
Polaris
09-18-07, 03:14 PM Does your DM know that in D&D exotic doesn't mean "not from here", it means "requires special training above and beyond that of simple and martial weapons"? Because I've gotten into similar scuffles with DMs saying that a Naginata is exotic for a European style character (I wasn't using the Naginata, my Girlfriend was, but I argued on her behalf). Martial weapons are martial weapons regardless of what you want to call them.

Given that he's just told me that crossbows are exotic weapons in his world, apparently not. It's starting to get testy. Any advice on how to get the DM to pull his head out? I am really starting to get annoyed.

-Polaris
Thakowsaizmu
09-18-07, 05:29 PM Given that he's just told me that crossbows are exotic weapons in his world, apparently not. It's starting to get testy. Any advice on how to get the DM to pull his head out? I am really starting to get annoyed.

-Polaris
Yes, my advice is GET OUT! Find someone else to play with, becuase that is just not cool. He could say that crossbows are rare, but that are about as un-exotic as a weapon comes. Point and shoot. Now if he is the only DM in your area and / or you don't know anyone else to game with, either try talking to him. Explain that arbitrarily changing rules isn't cool, and that nerfing your character for no reason is also not cool. If he doesn't listen then leave and try to find where some other gamers are. Gaming / hobby stores, bookstores, hell there is a personals section on the boards, just post there. I can tell you, that's not a game I'd want to play in.
Angus Cotton
09-18-07, 11:12 PM Polaris, doh! Check just three post down. Royal Monkey Staff rulezors!. Tripping polearm goodness so good it will make you dance!
Angus Cotton
09-18-07, 11:14 PM Polaris, are you Sirius?

hahahahahahahhahaha! get it?
The_Shaman
09-19-07, 04:37 AM Guys,

Unbelievable. Un-freaking-believable. Thanks for your help, but even with an exact cite from the Arms and Equipment Guide (not to mention the sources I already dredged up), my DM is insisting that a Guisarme/Kamayari is an exotic weapon. I guess he doesn't like the fact that a Monk with it can trip at 10' and 5', but Jimminy Christmas.....that's what Monks do! (Taking advantage of polearms is one of the few things Monks do well over other martial classes.)
-Polaris

You know, I think you should get a spiked chain on this guy. Wasn't OA the book that said that spiked chains could be used as reach OR double weapons? If you want to be thematic, I'd say that a kusari-gama also works. Alternatively, consider whether you like the campaign and the other players. If you do, then it's no biggie... but if you don't, look for another group. Besides, with enlarge person, you yourself will have a 10-foot reach afaik.
Polaris
09-19-07, 11:11 AM You know, I think you should get a spiked chain on this guy. Wasn't OA the book that said that spiked chains could be used as reach OR double weapons? If you want to be thematic, I'd say that a kusari-gama also works. Alternatively, consider whether you like the campaign and the other players. If you do, then it's no biggie... but if you don't, look for another group. Besides, with enlarge person, you yourself will have a 10-foot reach afaik.

He's banned those weapons, otherwise I'd be tempted. Personally, I think his big problem (although he hasn't said as much) is that as a monk my character will be able to threaten 5' and 10' spaces and be able to trip with both with a tripping polearm. In short, I believe he thinks I'm cheating somehow by building my monk so I can do this. Boo-freaking-hoo. That's what monks do! (And it's not like I'm not paying for it elsewhere!)

-Polaris
The_Shaman
09-19-07, 02:22 PM Actually, I do think that if monks were meant to use polearms, they would get the proficiency... but threatening larger areas is not supposed to be OMFGBBQFTW incredible. If changing size 1 category was THAT hard, enlarge wouldn't be a lvl 1 spell.
Polaris
09-19-07, 02:26 PM Actually, I do think that if monks were meant to use polearms, they would get the proficiency... but threatening larger areas is not supposed to be OMFGBBQFTW incredible. If changing size 1 category was THAT hard, enlarge wouldn't be a lvl 1 spell.

Actually it's the extended tripping that seems to be horking off the DM, but honestly I don't see the big deal. While I agree that the extended reach shouldn't be free for a Monk, it's not. To use a polearm the way I suggest requires either) 1. A feat 2. A non-monk level and both are expensive. It should NEVER be a feat AND a non-monk level.

As for Monks not 'intended' to do this, if they weren't why was the Monk unarmed strike written explicitly to permit it then? [Quite unlike Improved Unarmed Strike for non-monks which does require at least one free hand.]

-Polaris
Thakowsaizmu
09-19-07, 03:03 PM Actually, I do think that if monks were meant to use polearms, they would get the proficiency ...
See, that is one of the biggest problemmes I have with the monk class (and yet another reason we use weapon group profs from UA). The fact that is it based way too much on a Japanese / Animé style unarmed combatant. Chinese Martial Artists make use of several polearms, as well as swords, spears and more. They don't really teach any of the weapons on the Monks list (save the quarterstaff), and they are where the idea for the class is rooted!
The_Shaman
09-19-07, 04:56 PM See, that is one of the biggest problemmes I have with the monk class (and yet another reason we use weapon group profs from UA). The fact that is it based way too much on a Japanese / Animé style unarmed combatant. Chinese Martial Artists make use of several polearms, as well as swords, spears and more. They don't really teach any of the weapons on the Monks list (save the quarterstaff), and they are where the idea for the class is rooted!

True, the monk weapon list is somewhat one-sided. Hmm, this reminds me of one Dragon magazine I read awhile ago, in which they introduced variant weapon proficiencies and monk (flurry) weapons, supposedly more based on Chinese/Indian traditions. Also, I think AEG has more weapons monks are proficient in and in some cases can flurry with. Some, like the butterfly swords, are afaik Chinese in origin.

BTW, where is the Lajatang from? I think it was also called Crescent Staff. I think that if it is an actual weapon it's probably Chinese given the similarities to the "monk spade"
Thakowsaizmu
09-20-07, 12:52 AM BTW, where is the Lajatang from? I think it was also called Crescent Staff. I think that if it is an actual weapon it's probably Chinese given the similarities to the "monk spade"
I looked up the Lajatang a while ago and got nothing but RP stuff. To be honest I think it is just a Monks Spade, but that name doesn't sound as "Oriental". I think it sounds far cooler than Lajatang though. I use the Lajatang in my games as a Monks Spade, and just change the look some to fit the weapon.
Pagan priest
09-22-07, 04:09 PM Actually, I do think that if monks were meant to use polearms, they would get the proficiency... but threatening larger areas is not supposed to be OMFGBBQFTW incredible. If changing size 1 category was THAT hard, enlarge wouldn't be a lvl 1 spell.
In 1st Ed PHB or OA, monks were allowed to take proficiency with pole arms.

Really sounds like this particular DM needs to be wacked upside the head a couple of times with the rule books, Reasonable changes to the rules are part of a DM's job, especially changes to make the rules fit the world. Unreasonable changes are the mark of a bad DM.

The lajatang is from Indonesia, if I recall correctly.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Polaris 09-15-07, 10:41 AM	Everyone, I am playing a ranger-monk in an Oriental flavored campaign, and unknown to me (until the first day), I didn't know that the DM was using ONLY the weapons in Oriental Adventures. I was told it would be an "Oriental Flavored campaign using Core+complete books". I am seriously annoyed because I wanted my monk to wield a guisarme (a tripping polearm), and according to the base write-up in OA, there doesn't seem to be any. However, after less than an hour of research of my own I found an entire class of Japanese tripping polearms called kama-yari. OK...are there tripping polearms in Oriental Adventures? If so (and IMHO there should be), where I can I find them and what stats do they use...and finally how do I convince my DM? Thanks in advance. -Polaris
Thakowsaizmu 09-15-07, 03:09 PM	The weapons in the OA book are specific weapons found mostly in China / Japan. However, there are many weapons that are equivalent to weapons found in the PHB, all one needs to do is rename the weapon. A guisarme could easily be called a kamayari, and in one of my books it infact is. (They also say to use the guisarme as a guandao, but that is wrong, it should be more like a glaive.) So not only should it be availible, but you don't need new stats for the weapon. Flails also existed, and can make trip attacks. A three-section staff or a lashing staff are pretty close in stats to a flail and are both Chinese weapons. I know that there are stats for a three-section staff, though they aren't very good, so unless your DM would allow you to change them, I'd go with a lashing staff and use the heavy flail stats. Also, if you want something more like a sword, I'd go with the Tiger Hook Swords (a personal favourite. I do own a set of these fine weapons.) The stats can be found in a dragon magazine, though if those are not allowed or you haven't access to them they can easily be used as a Khopesh, though you may want to treat the offhand one as light because they are designed to be used as a pair. Lashing Staff:http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/martialartsmart_1964_134737993 Three-section Staff:http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/martialartsmart_1964_134243843 Tiger Hook Swords:http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/martialartsmart_1964_135503481 Granted those last two are not polearms, but they are tripping weapons. Also, that isn't a great picture of the Tiger Hook Swords, they look a bit... dull in that one, but it was the first one I found.
The_Shaman 09-18-07, 06:43 AM	In other words: Arms and Equipment Guide FTW!
Polaris 09-18-07, 11:08 AM	In other words: Arms and Equipment Guide FTW! Thanks. You have to understand that I wasn't told the Arms and Equipment Guide would be part of the allowed books....but it's certainly the place to find the weapon. -Polaris
Polaris 09-18-07, 01:08 PM	Guys, Unbelievable. Un-freaking-believable. Thanks for your help, but even with an exact cite from the Arms and Equipment Guide (not to mention the sources I already dredged up), my DM is insisting that a Guisarme/Kamayari is an exotic weapon. I guess he doesn't like the fact that a Monk with it can trip at 10' and 5', but Jimminy Christmas.....that's what Monks do! (Taking advantage of polearms is one of the few things Monks do well over other martial classes.) I am already paying through the snout by not only being a monk but by taking a non-monk level which hurts. SIGH Thanks for you help. Time to rethink my involvement in the game. IMHO if the DM is going to be unreasonable about this little stuff, then suddenly I am worried about the big stuff. -Polaris
Thakowsaizmu 09-18-07, 03:05 PM	my DM is insisting that a Guisarme/Kamayari is an exotic weapon. Does your DM know that in D&D exotic doesn't mean "not from here", it means "requires special training above and beyond that of simple and martial weapons"? Because I've gotten into similar scuffles with DMs saying that a Naginata is exotic for a European style character (I wasn't using the Naginata, my Girlfriend was, but I argued on her behalf). Martial weapons are martial weapons regardless of what you want to call them.
Polaris 09-18-07, 03:14 PM	Does your DM know that in D&D exotic doesn't mean "not from here", it means "requires special training above and beyond that of simple and martial weapons"? Because I've gotten into similar scuffles with DMs saying that a Naginata is exotic for a European style character (I wasn't using the Naginata, my Girlfriend was, but I argued on her behalf). Martial weapons are martial weapons regardless of what you want to call them. Given that he's just told me that crossbows are exotic weapons in his world, apparently not. It's starting to get testy. Any advice on how to get the DM to pull his head out? I am really starting to get annoyed. -Polaris
Thakowsaizmu 09-18-07, 05:29 PM	Given that he's just told me that crossbows are exotic weapons in his world, apparently not. It's starting to get testy. Any advice on how to get the DM to pull his head out? I am really starting to get annoyed. -Polaris Yes, my advice is GET OUT! Find someone else to play with, becuase that is just not cool. He could say that crossbows are rare, but that are about as un-exotic as a weapon comes. Point and shoot. Now if he is the only DM in your area and / or you don't know anyone else to game with, either try talking to him. Explain that arbitrarily changing rules isn't cool, and that nerfing your character for no reason is also not cool. If he doesn't listen then leave and try to find where some other gamers are. Gaming / hobby stores, bookstores, hell there is a personals section on the boards, just post there. I can tell you, that's not a game I'd want to play in.
Angus Cotton 09-18-07, 11:12 PM	Polaris, doh! Check just three post down. Royal Monkey Staff rulezors!. Tripping polearm goodness so good it will make you dance!
Angus Cotton 09-18-07, 11:14 PM	Polaris, are you Sirius? hahahahahahahhahaha! get it?
The_Shaman 09-19-07, 04:37 AM	Guys, Unbelievable. Un-freaking-believable. Thanks for your help, but even with an exact cite from the Arms and Equipment Guide (not to mention the sources I already dredged up), my DM is insisting that a Guisarme/Kamayari is an exotic weapon. I guess he doesn't like the fact that a Monk with it can trip at 10' and 5', but Jimminy Christmas.....that's what Monks do! (Taking advantage of polearms is one of the few things Monks do well over other martial classes.) -Polaris You know, I think you should get a spiked chain on this guy. Wasn't OA the book that said that spiked chains could be used as reach OR double weapons? If you want to be thematic, I'd say that a kusari-gama also works. Alternatively, consider whether you like the campaign and the other players. If you do, then it's no biggie... but if you don't, look for another group. Besides, with enlarge person, you yourself will have a 10-foot reach afaik.
Polaris 09-19-07, 11:11 AM	You know, I think you should get a spiked chain on this guy. Wasn't OA the book that said that spiked chains could be used as reach OR double weapons? If you want to be thematic, I'd say that a kusari-gama also works. Alternatively, consider whether you like the campaign and the other players. If you do, then it's no biggie... but if you don't, look for another group. Besides, with enlarge person, you yourself will have a 10-foot reach afaik. He's banned those weapons, otherwise I'd be tempted. Personally, I think his big problem (although he hasn't said as much) is that as a monk my character will be able to threaten 5' and 10' spaces and be able to trip with both with a tripping polearm. In short, I believe he thinks I'm cheating somehow by building my monk so I can do this. Boo-freaking-hoo. That's what monks do! (And it's not like I'm not paying for it elsewhere!) -Polaris
The_Shaman 09-19-07, 02:22 PM	Actually, I do think that if monks were meant to use polearms, they would get the proficiency... but threatening larger areas is not supposed to be OMFGBBQFTW incredible. If changing size 1 category was THAT hard, enlarge wouldn't be a lvl 1 spell.
Polaris 09-19-07, 02:26 PM	Actually, I do think that if monks were meant to use polearms, they would get the proficiency... but threatening larger areas is not supposed to be OMFGBBQFTW incredible. If changing size 1 category was THAT hard, enlarge wouldn't be a lvl 1 spell. Actually it's the extended tripping that seems to be horking off the DM, but honestly I don't see the big deal. While I agree that the extended reach shouldn't be free for a Monk, it's not. To use a polearm the way I suggest requires either) 1. A feat 2. A non-monk level and both are expensive. It should NEVER be a feat AND a non-monk level. As for Monks not 'intended' to do this, if they weren't why was the Monk unarmed strike written explicitly to permit it then? [Quite unlike Improved Unarmed Strike for non-monks which does require at least one free hand.] -Polaris
Thakowsaizmu 09-19-07, 03:03 PM	Actually, I do think that if monks were meant to use polearms, they would get the proficiency ... See, that is one of the biggest problemmes I have with the monk class (and yet another reason we use weapon group profs from UA). The fact that is it based way too much on a Japanese / Animé style unarmed combatant. Chinese Martial Artists make use of several polearms, as well as swords, spears and more. They don't really teach any of the weapons on the Monks list (save the quarterstaff), and they are where the idea for the class is rooted!
The_Shaman 09-19-07, 04:56 PM	See, that is one of the biggest problemmes I have with the monk class (and yet another reason we use weapon group profs from UA). The fact that is it based way too much on a Japanese / Animé style unarmed combatant. Chinese Martial Artists make use of several polearms, as well as swords, spears and more. They don't really teach any of the weapons on the Monks list (save the quarterstaff), and they are where the idea for the class is rooted! True, the monk weapon list is somewhat one-sided. Hmm, this reminds me of one Dragon magazine I read awhile ago, in which they introduced variant weapon proficiencies and monk (flurry) weapons, supposedly more based on Chinese/Indian traditions. Also, I think AEG has more weapons monks are proficient in and in some cases can flurry with. Some, like the butterfly swords, are afaik Chinese in origin. BTW, where is the Lajatang from? I think it was also called Crescent Staff. I think that if it is an actual weapon it's probably Chinese given the similarities to the "monk spade"
Thakowsaizmu 09-20-07, 12:52 AM	BTW, where is the Lajatang from? I think it was also called Crescent Staff. I think that if it is an actual weapon it's probably Chinese given the similarities to the "monk spade" I looked up the Lajatang a while ago and got nothing but RP stuff. To be honest I think it is just a Monks Spade, but that name doesn't sound as "Oriental". I think it sounds far cooler than Lajatang though. I use the Lajatang in my games as a Monks Spade, and just change the look some to fit the weapon.
Pagan priest 09-22-07, 04:09 PM	Actually, I do think that if monks were meant to use polearms, they would get the proficiency... but threatening larger areas is not supposed to be OMFGBBQFTW incredible. If changing size 1 category was THAT hard, enlarge wouldn't be a lvl 1 spell. In 1st Ed PHB or OA, monks were allowed to take proficiency with pole arms. Really sounds like this particular DM needs to be wacked upside the head a couple of times with the rule books, Reasonable changes to the rules are part of a DM's job, especially changes to make the rules fit the world. Unreasonable changes are the mark of a bad DM. The lajatang is from Indonesia, if I recall correctly.