Way of the Ninja with Complete Adventurer Ninja? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Way of the Ninja with Complete Adventurer Ninja? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AkumaDaimyo
06-16-07, 07:10 PM Do the feats work for a Complete Adventurer Ninja? Someone said before that Rokugan Ninja are too powerfull for a non Rokugan game. But what about the feats? A few require void points so they couldn't be used but some of the other feats sound ok. I was possibly thinking that the feats that require void points could use action points (If in a Eberron game or a game that even uses action points.) I definitly like the book for the items and things in the back. Seems too good a book to not use anything from it at all.
Darth Sephiroth
06-17-07, 06:11 PM If your DM is happy with you, you could probably convince him to let you use Ki Points in place of Void points
AkumaDaimyo
06-17-07, 06:38 PM *I am the DM. I've just heard it said that Rokugan ninja don't fit with normal PHB classes.
unundindur
06-18-07, 06:55 AM I would have no problem with the Rokugan Ninja. Its quite simply a more combat-focused rogue. Less skills and more combat prowess.
AkumaDaimyo
06-18-07, 08:07 AM Thats somewhat how I saw it too. I thought it would have been interesting to run with the CA ninja as a more combat specialist ninja. He can't turn invisible but he can run damned fast and can wear armor as long as it's check penalty is 0. He can also use more exotic weapons.

I'd like to see adaptions of the 2cd ED Complete Ninja Handbook with how they had ideas for Mage Ninja, Cleric Ninja and Ranger Ninja, ect. Perhaps a multiclass combo or a ninja who gets different abilities or something?
The_Shaman
06-18-07, 08:32 AM You know, I can't help but thing beguiler whenever I combine the rogue and mage concepts. Of course, multiclassing and PrCing works well, too, especially for clerics. That is, if you want all team members to have certain skills, which imo is not necessary. For example, rangers have a similar skill set and even without the swift hunter the class could approximate the ninja concept as I see it. OTOH, druids and mages can also be very useful to such a group if they bend their talents to the group's task (i.e. druid wildshapes to a bird to scout a camp, mage uses invisibility, divinations etc).

As for the Rokugan ninja, they may be a bit more powerful than, say, fighters, but I would not rate them too high. Maybe alongside the ToB classes, or maybe a bit lower.
Hochiu
06-18-07, 09:33 AM I've always personally preferred the Rokugan Ninja over the CaV Ninja. I played one in a psuedo-Eberron influenced campaign setting. He was a fairly good character.
AkumaDaimyo
06-18-07, 09:38 AM They seem pretty awesome too but I've heard it said that they are too powerfull in a non Rokugan setting. I would also do away with their alingment restricition in a non Rokugan setting. In Rokugan, ninja aren't very nice folk but in other settings I think they'd be more like how Heretic describes them or they should at LEAST be able to be LN. I think I had a ninja/rogue once and he was pretty cool. He may have also had some fighter as well.
Hochiu
06-18-07, 09:40 AM Bro, in any campaign setting, every class is going to bow down to a CoDzilla or the Wizard. It's a foregone conclusion. Attempting to discern "power" between classes is a lesson in futility. Trust me.

I've been trying to convince one of my friends (and sometimes DM) that most of the melee classes are underpowered. Particularly the Paladin and the Fighter, but he won't have any of it. Annoying.
The_Shaman
06-18-07, 10:41 AM Heh, I just read Lycanthromancer's comment/rant on psions being overpowered when he described the wizard/kineticist duel. I wonder if your friend could read that. It might cause his head to explode ;)
Hochiu
06-18-07, 10:45 AM Don't say the P-word around him, either.

His only experience with how psionics were "overpowered" is comprised of reading the RA Salvatore novel where Drizzit get's schooled by a psion.
narukagami
06-18-07, 12:50 PM You know, AEG has their d20 Rokugan ninja class as a free download.

Here, judge it for yourself. (http://www.l5r.com/archive/rpg/rokugan_ninja.pdf)
Hochiu
06-18-07, 12:57 PM Good to know. Does that make it open content?
AkumaDaimyo
06-18-07, 02:16 PM I already have that class printed out.
Azzy
06-18-07, 05:48 PM Don't say the P-word around him, either.

His only experience with how psionics were "overpowered" is comprised of reading the RA Salvatore novel where Drizzit get's schooled by a psion.

Ah, there's your problem right there. Your best bet is simply to set your friend on fire. :D
The_Shaman
06-19-07, 03:09 AM Hmm, a level 16 crazy fighter-based combination messed by an epic-equivalent 2.0 edition power. You don't say.

Edit: maybe it's just me, but I've always been a bit confused by the ninja PrC. Full BAB, good will save, and a d6 are just a bit weird. I would probably start it with 2 to 4 levels of rogue, I think it may be a good move.
AkumaDaimyo
06-19-07, 03:16 AM We aren't talking about the ninja PrC though. We are talking about the ninja base class out of Rokugan d20.
The_Shaman
06-19-07, 04:17 AM We aren't talking about the ninja PrC though. We are talking about the ninja base class out of Rokugan d20.

Sorry, I was looking at the base class myself. I was just a little confused as I normally speak of the ninja spy in ninja discussions. Even then, a few levels of 8+int skill points, good reflex save and evasion can help a lot imo.
Sleepwalker13666
06-19-07, 04:38 AM I've never had any trouble with the rokugan ninjas, even before we had over 60 classes to choose from, they have no abilities I would consider broken.

As for the feats from way of the ninja, the feats and katas should go fine with the complete warrior ninja, though as previously suggested you might want to allow ki points to work as void points, and vise versa.

I really wish my group would use way of the ninja more, it's a really good book.
heretic888
06-19-07, 08:20 AM Sorry, I was looking at the base class myself. I was just a little confused as I normally speak of the ninja spy in ninja discussions. Even then, a few levels of 8+int skill points, good reflex save and evasion can help a lot imo.

Just for a point of clarification, the high Will save is an editorial mistake. The Rokugan Ninja is supposed to have a high Reflex save and a low Will save.
The_Shaman
06-19-07, 10:17 AM Ah, makes sense then. But why can't they at least change the online sources?
AkumaDaimyo
06-19-07, 10:22 AM Well some of the kata are pretty nasty. Not sure I'd use any of them at all as I'd be using the Rokugan Ninja in Eberron as sort of a more combat based ninja vs the more sneaky CA ninja. Seems a guy with a few levels in both could be pretty nasty. Though I found Rogue/Rogukgan Ninja to be pretty darned cool. All the skill points at 1st level and getting evasion and some other abilities helps. Then take some ninja levels and get better bab, some of the same skills and some other abilities. So it's almost like your still a rogue but with a better BaB if you multiclass. Only downside is less skill points overall, but if you spend them wisely you can still do fine since both classes share many of the same skills.
Hochiu
06-22-07, 04:37 PM Well, in a Non-Rokugan game, you have complete say as to what gets incorporated from Rokugan books. It doesn't matter which Kata you think is powerful or not. You can always just ignore it. :P

I'm including Ninja in my new campaign world despite it being largely a western setting, to represent some of the remaining vestiges of the East/West synthesis I have going on - I forgot exactly what Way of the Ninja had to offer.
The Crimson Dawn
06-23-07, 12:55 AM Well using the cityscape enhancement ability called "skilled city dweller", the thug variant in the SRD, the sneak attack variant of the fighter in the SRD, and a few good choices of feats you preety much the same as this ninja class. Full BAB, 4 skills per level, a similar though not quite as good skill list, and sneak attack. This ninja comes out a little ahead (as it should) with a few extra feat level abilities. But since it only a little better than a fighter using alternative rules I would say it is not an overpowered class.
Sleepwalker13666
06-27-07, 06:23 AM The only thing I didn't like about katas was it was an experience cost, which I don't really view as a cost, it basically gives you more time to kill and loot, but I can certainly see why a DM would be wary of them.
The_Shaman
06-27-07, 07:00 AM Where is the Kata from, is it any of the Rokugan splatbooks?
Sleepwalker13666
06-27-07, 04:52 PM Where is the Kata from, is it any of the Rokugan splatbooks?

Way of the Samurai and Way of the Ninja have a few, those are the only ones I know of that have any.
Hochiu
06-27-07, 11:33 PM The Secrets of... books have individual house and family specific katas too, IIRC.
Sleepwalker13666
06-28-07, 06:12 AM The Secrets of... books have individual house and family specific katas too, IIRC.

I figured they would, but I never actually bought any of the house books.
Hochiu
06-28-07, 11:02 AM Conversely, does anyone feel that the skill point allotment for the Rokugan ninja to be a little low at 4? For a class that's supposed to represent a number of skills, wouldn't 6 serve better?
narukagami
06-28-07, 12:49 PM Conversely, does anyone feel that the skill point allotment for the Rokugan ninja to be a little low at 4? For a class that's supposed to represent a number of skills, wouldn't 6 serve better? I think it would step on the toes of a rogue even moreso than it already does if it got 6 as opposed to 4. As it is, its a more combat-focused version of a rogue.
Hochiu
06-28-07, 01:43 PM True, but taking into account that Ninja are (zomg) historically trained in a number of different skills, I dont think 4 really cuts it. In the back of Way of the Ninja they suggest finding a niche and sticking to it as a ninja, but that just seems like a waste of a number of skills to me. The Fighter, for example, has a small number of class skills and it works because they have a small number of skill points to spend on those skills.

Any other thoughts?
heretic888
06-28-07, 02:59 PM True, but taking into account that Ninja are (zomg) historically trained in a number of different skills, I dont think 4 really cuts it.

Well, to be fair, the Rokugani Ninja isn't supposed to be a historical shinobi. ;)

Personally, I've always found both the Samurai and Ninja classes to be something of an enigma in Rokugan. It has been made abundantly clear that you can be a samurai without having levels in Samurai or a ninja without having levels in Ninja. Strictly speaking, one could even have levels in Ninja without being an actual ninja in Rokugan. Its all very gray and murky.

However, if one were concerned with making the Rokugani Ninja closer to their historical counterparts, there's a lot of material I would change, including their skill points....
The_Shaman
06-29-07, 06:59 AM Conversely, does anyone feel that the skill point allotment for the Rokugan ninja to be a little low at 4? For a class that's supposed to represent a number of skills, wouldn't 6 serve better?

It would seem the ninja is more of a combat agent type. If you want to RP one who is more widely skilled, a little (or a lot) of rogue could be a good choice.
Sleepwalker13666
06-30-07, 03:14 PM Well in book of exalted deeds they have a feat called nymphs kiss which gives you 1 additional skill point per level and some other abilities, so it should'nt be a stretch to make a feat that gives a skill per level, if you did that and play a human (use your human bonus feat to take it for that mater ) you get 6+Int per level.
The Crimson Dawn
07-02-07, 12:20 AM Well I would say if you want to get the more skillful ninja then I would just use the CAv ninja. The rokugon ninja is more the enforcer ninja who is to be able to handle himself in a fight. He has just enough skills so that he can keep up with his more skillful counterparts. If trouble arrises he can take of it with his greater combat prowess. I see the CAv ninja to be more the assassin of the two. He hits hard and fast. He can get away easily. He can probably be the best in hitting from where nobody was expecting it but he can not do as well in straight up fight. He has more skills because he will need them more in his line of work.

Oddly enough the CAv ninja follows the reverse ninja rule better as more ninjas do not make the CAv ninja any better. The Rokugon ninja does not follow the reverse ninja rule as they can set up flanks and thus does improve their effectiveness with more ninjas. j/k

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AkumaDaimyo 06-16-07, 07:10 PM	Do the feats work for a Complete Adventurer Ninja? Someone said before that Rokugan Ninja are too powerfull for a non Rokugan game. But what about the feats? A few require void points so they couldn't be used but some of the other feats sound ok. I was possibly thinking that the feats that require void points could use action points (If in a Eberron game or a game that even uses action points.) I definitly like the book for the items and things in the back. Seems too good a book to not use anything from it at all.
Darth Sephiroth 06-17-07, 06:11 PM	If your DM is happy with you, you could probably convince him to let you use Ki Points in place of Void points
AkumaDaimyo 06-17-07, 06:38 PM	*I am the DM. I've just heard it said that Rokugan ninja don't fit with normal PHB classes.
unundindur 06-18-07, 06:55 AM	I would have no problem with the Rokugan Ninja. Its quite simply a more combat-focused rogue. Less skills and more combat prowess.
AkumaDaimyo 06-18-07, 08:07 AM	Thats somewhat how I saw it too. I thought it would have been interesting to run with the CA ninja as a more combat specialist ninja. He can't turn invisible but he can run damned fast and can wear armor as long as it's check penalty is 0. He can also use more exotic weapons. I'd like to see adaptions of the 2cd ED Complete Ninja Handbook with how they had ideas for Mage Ninja, Cleric Ninja and Ranger Ninja, ect. Perhaps a multiclass combo or a ninja who gets different abilities or something?
The_Shaman 06-18-07, 08:32 AM	You know, I can't help but thing beguiler whenever I combine the rogue and mage concepts. Of course, multiclassing and PrCing works well, too, especially for clerics. That is, if you want all team members to have certain skills, which imo is not necessary. For example, rangers have a similar skill set and even without the swift hunter the class could approximate the ninja concept as I see it. OTOH, druids and mages can also be very useful to such a group if they bend their talents to the group's task (i.e. druid wildshapes to a bird to scout a camp, mage uses invisibility, divinations etc). As for the Rokugan ninja, they may be a bit more powerful than, say, fighters, but I would not rate them too high. Maybe alongside the ToB classes, or maybe a bit lower.
Hochiu 06-18-07, 09:33 AM	I've always personally preferred the Rokugan Ninja over the CaV Ninja. I played one in a psuedo-Eberron influenced campaign setting. He was a fairly good character.
AkumaDaimyo 06-18-07, 09:38 AM	They seem pretty awesome too but I've heard it said that they are too powerfull in a non Rokugan setting. I would also do away with their alingment restricition in a non Rokugan setting. In Rokugan, ninja aren't very nice folk but in other settings I think they'd be more like how Heretic describes them or they should at LEAST be able to be LN. I think I had a ninja/rogue once and he was pretty cool. He may have also had some fighter as well.
Hochiu 06-18-07, 09:40 AM	Bro, in any campaign setting, every class is going to bow down to a CoDzilla or the Wizard. It's a foregone conclusion. Attempting to discern "power" between classes is a lesson in futility. Trust me. I've been trying to convince one of my friends (and sometimes DM) that most of the melee classes are underpowered. Particularly the Paladin and the Fighter, but he won't have any of it. Annoying.
The_Shaman 06-18-07, 10:41 AM	Heh, I just read Lycanthromancer's comment/rant on psions being overpowered when he described the wizard/kineticist duel. I wonder if your friend could read that. It might cause his head to explode ;)
Hochiu 06-18-07, 10:45 AM	Don't say the P-word around him, either. His only experience with how psionics were "overpowered" is comprised of reading the RA Salvatore novel where Drizzit get's schooled by a psion.
narukagami 06-18-07, 12:50 PM	You know, AEG has their d20 Rokugan ninja class as a free download. Here, judge it for yourself. (http://www.l5r.com/archive/rpg/rokugan_ninja.pdf)
Hochiu 06-18-07, 12:57 PM	Good to know. Does that make it open content?
AkumaDaimyo 06-18-07, 02:16 PM	I already have that class printed out.
Azzy 06-18-07, 05:48 PM	Don't say the P-word around him, either. His only experience with how psionics were "overpowered" is comprised of reading the RA Salvatore novel where Drizzit get's schooled by a psion. Ah, there's your problem right there. Your best bet is simply to set your friend on fire. :D
The_Shaman 06-19-07, 03:09 AM	Hmm, a level 16 crazy fighter-based combination messed by an epic-equivalent 2.0 edition power. You don't say. Edit: maybe it's just me, but I've always been a bit confused by the ninja PrC. Full BAB, good will save, and a d6 are just a bit weird. I would probably start it with 2 to 4 levels of rogue, I think it may be a good move.
AkumaDaimyo 06-19-07, 03:16 AM	We aren't talking about the ninja PrC though. We are talking about the ninja base class out of Rokugan d20.
The_Shaman 06-19-07, 04:17 AM	We aren't talking about the ninja PrC though. We are talking about the ninja base class out of Rokugan d20. Sorry, I was looking at the base class myself. I was just a little confused as I normally speak of the ninja spy in ninja discussions. Even then, a few levels of 8+int skill points, good reflex save and evasion can help a lot imo.
Sleepwalker13666 06-19-07, 04:38 AM	I've never had any trouble with the rokugan ninjas, even before we had over 60 classes to choose from, they have no abilities I would consider broken. As for the feats from way of the ninja, the feats and katas should go fine with the complete warrior ninja, though as previously suggested you might want to allow ki points to work as void points, and vise versa. I really wish my group would use way of the ninja more, it's a really good book.
heretic888 06-19-07, 08:20 AM	Sorry, I was looking at the base class myself. I was just a little confused as I normally speak of the ninja spy in ninja discussions. Even then, a few levels of 8+int skill points, good reflex save and evasion can help a lot imo. Just for a point of clarification, the high Will save is an editorial mistake. The Rokugan Ninja is supposed to have a high Reflex save and a low Will save.
The_Shaman 06-19-07, 10:17 AM	Ah, makes sense then. But why can't they at least change the online sources?
AkumaDaimyo 06-19-07, 10:22 AM	Well some of the kata are pretty nasty. Not sure I'd use any of them at all as I'd be using the Rokugan Ninja in Eberron as sort of a more combat based ninja vs the more sneaky CA ninja. Seems a guy with a few levels in both could be pretty nasty. Though I found Rogue/Rogukgan Ninja to be pretty darned cool. All the skill points at 1st level and getting evasion and some other abilities helps. Then take some ninja levels and get better bab, some of the same skills and some other abilities. So it's almost like your still a rogue but with a better BaB if you multiclass. Only downside is less skill points overall, but if you spend them wisely you can still do fine since both classes share many of the same skills.
Hochiu 06-22-07, 04:37 PM	Well, in a Non-Rokugan game, you have complete say as to what gets incorporated from Rokugan books. It doesn't matter which Kata you think is powerful or not. You can always just ignore it. :P I'm including Ninja in my new campaign world despite it being largely a western setting, to represent some of the remaining vestiges of the East/West synthesis I have going on - I forgot exactly what Way of the Ninja had to offer.
The Crimson Dawn 06-23-07, 12:55 AM	Well using the cityscape enhancement ability called "skilled city dweller", the thug variant in the SRD, the sneak attack variant of the fighter in the SRD, and a few good choices of feats you preety much the same as this ninja class. Full BAB, 4 skills per level, a similar though not quite as good skill list, and sneak attack. This ninja comes out a little ahead (as it should) with a few extra feat level abilities. But since it only a little better than a fighter using alternative rules I would say it is not an overpowered class.
Sleepwalker13666 06-27-07, 06:23 AM	The only thing I didn't like about katas was it was an experience cost, which I don't really view as a cost, it basically gives you more time to kill and loot, but I can certainly see why a DM would be wary of them.
The_Shaman 06-27-07, 07:00 AM	Where is the Kata from, is it any of the Rokugan splatbooks?
Sleepwalker13666 06-27-07, 04:52 PM	Where is the Kata from, is it any of the Rokugan splatbooks? Way of the Samurai and Way of the Ninja have a few, those are the only ones I know of that have any.
Hochiu 06-27-07, 11:33 PM	The Secrets of... books have individual house and family specific katas too, IIRC.
Sleepwalker13666 06-28-07, 06:12 AM	The Secrets of... books have individual house and family specific katas too, IIRC. I figured they would, but I never actually bought any of the house books.
Hochiu 06-28-07, 11:02 AM	Conversely, does anyone feel that the skill point allotment for the Rokugan ninja to be a little low at 4? For a class that's supposed to represent a number of skills, wouldn't 6 serve better?
narukagami 06-28-07, 12:49 PM	Conversely, does anyone feel that the skill point allotment for the Rokugan ninja to be a little low at 4? For a class that's supposed to represent a number of skills, wouldn't 6 serve better? I think it would step on the toes of a rogue even moreso than it already does if it got 6 as opposed to 4. As it is, its a more combat-focused version of a rogue.
Hochiu 06-28-07, 01:43 PM	True, but taking into account that Ninja are (zomg) historically trained in a number of different skills, I dont think 4 really cuts it. In the back of Way of the Ninja they suggest finding a niche and sticking to it as a ninja, but that just seems like a waste of a number of skills to me. The Fighter, for example, has a small number of class skills and it works because they have a small number of skill points to spend on those skills. Any other thoughts?
heretic888 06-28-07, 02:59 PM	True, but taking into account that Ninja are (zomg) historically trained in a number of different skills, I dont think 4 really cuts it. Well, to be fair, the Rokugani Ninja isn't supposed to be a historical shinobi. ;) Personally, I've always found both the Samurai and Ninja classes to be something of an enigma in Rokugan. It has been made abundantly clear that you can be a samurai without having levels in Samurai or a ninja without having levels in Ninja. Strictly speaking, one could even have levels in Ninja without being an actual ninja in Rokugan. Its all very gray and murky. However, if one were concerned with making the Rokugani Ninja closer to their historical counterparts, there's a lot of material I would change, including their skill points....
The_Shaman 06-29-07, 06:59 AM	Conversely, does anyone feel that the skill point allotment for the Rokugan ninja to be a little low at 4? For a class that's supposed to represent a number of skills, wouldn't 6 serve better? It would seem the ninja is more of a combat agent type. If you want to RP one who is more widely skilled, a little (or a lot) of rogue could be a good choice.
Sleepwalker13666 06-30-07, 03:14 PM	Well in book of exalted deeds they have a feat called nymphs kiss which gives you 1 additional skill point per level and some other abilities, so it should'nt be a stretch to make a feat that gives a skill per level, if you did that and play a human (use your human bonus feat to take it for that mater ) you get 6+Int per level.
The Crimson Dawn 07-02-07, 12:20 AM	Well I would say if you want to get the more skillful ninja then I would just use the CAv ninja. The rokugon ninja is more the enforcer ninja who is to be able to handle himself in a fight. He has just enough skills so that he can keep up with his more skillful counterparts. If trouble arrises he can take of it with his greater combat prowess. I see the CAv ninja to be more the assassin of the two. He hits hard and fast. He can get away easily. He can probably be the best in hitting from where nobody was expecting it but he can not do as well in straight up fight. He has more skills because he will need them more in his line of work. Oddly enough the CAv ninja follows the reverse ninja rule better as more ninjas do not make the CAv ninja any better. The Rokugon ninja does not follow the reverse ninja rule as they can set up flanks and thus does improve their effectiveness with more ninjas. j/k