way of the scorpion + speed of darkness [Archive] - Wizards Community

way of the scorpion + speed of darkness [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hanzo138
04-11-07, 02:58 AM both add your int mod to initiative. do they stack or no?
ted_the_mindflayer
04-11-07, 07:57 AM both add your int mod to initiative. do they stack or no?

Well yes and no...

Yes they are both were d20 but one is d&d rules the other applies to a specific setting that is not intended to be fused with all suplment rules that most likely will unbalance characters and conflict the setting.
TheDragonmaster
04-11-07, 09:11 AM Ermmm, correct me if I am wrong, but both are in Rokugan Campaign Setting, right (Feat and Ninja Ability)? Thus both are part of the same book and should have been forseen as used together (by all Scorpion Ninjas, in fact). Thus I would say they stack.

If you want synergies with the Rokugan Ninja class look at the combo of Shadow Run with the Blade Dancer's (Oriental Adventures) Fast Movement ability. The way it works (x2, x(2+1/3), x(2+3/3), x3), it would give a high-Constitution character sickening speed... at about 20th level, combine with Boots of Swiftness (Epic Level Handbook), for sheer cheeze.
aelryinth
04-11-07, 09:53 PM If two abilities are stat derived and don't have a bonus name, they are generally considered the 'same' bonus and don't stack, even if they have minor differences.

So, I'd say probably not. The feat just allows you to access an ability normally only ninja possess.

===Aelryinth
narukagami
04-11-07, 09:59 PM If two abilities are stat derived and don't have a bonus name, they are generally considered the 'same' bonus and don't stack, even if they have minor differences.

So, I'd say probably not. The feat just allows you to access an ability normally only ninja possess.

===Aelryinth Correct.
Bonuses to the same thing from the same source (in this case, intelligence score) don't stack. Even if its a different gateway for the source, its still the same source.
3DJutsu
04-12-07, 03:58 AM The above posters are correct, it's like trying to add your Wis to you AC twice or more using Monk/Ninja/ and/or Swordsage, it just doesn't happen.
HidaAkira
04-12-07, 06:31 AM Not to mention that in one case (Secrets of the Dragon), the feat Two Heavens allows you to apply your Wisdom modifier to AC instead of Dex. The feat text specifically addresses what happens if you already apply your Wis to AC, like the monk does. Since WotSc does not specifically address this, I would assume that the two do not stack.

Of course, I don't see why they did not just give WotSc as a bonus feat instead. This way just makes more names to remember.
TheDragonmaster
04-16-07, 12:27 PM I have never before read as many posts all posting the same misunderstanding...

1) The source of the bonus is not their Int modifier, that is merely the size of it. The source of the modifier is the ability in question. The bonuses are untyped, by the way.
2) If nothing states otherwise, the bonuses should thereby stack.
3) Examples provided (Monk and Ninja Wis to AC and Monk + Swordsage (allthough Ninja and Swordsage would by the letter of the rules stack)), specifically state that they do not stack with each other. That is the reason why they not stack, not that the bonuses have the same size (the current Wis modifier of the character in question).

HidaAkira even uses my arguments, but still draws another conclusion.

If you are to use the above posters' advice still after hearing my arguments, please send an email adressing this corundum to customer service (or ask at CO boards, they always know the letter of the law...).

I seldom frankly tell people that they are wrong, but I deviated from this rule here. I do not intend to make anyone angry (though perhaps mildly irritated), and even if I would, I realize that since I do not know any of you or your opinions, that would be sickeningly pathetic.
AkumaDaimyo
04-23-07, 01:08 AM I think they stack. It says add your Int modifier to Init, not use in place of Dex. It stacks people. It's one of the abilities of the Rokgan Ninja that they are insanely fast with a high dex and a high int, add in Improved Initiative and he's always going first and probably catching at least one person flat footed.
HidaAkira
04-28-07, 08:21 AM 1) The source of the bonus is not their Int modifier, that is merely the size of it. The source of the modifier is the ability in question. The bonuses are untyped, by the way.

Speed of darkness: at 4th level, the ninja may add his Intelligence modifier to his Initiative.

Way of the Scorpion: You may add your Intelligence modifier, if positive, to your Initiative as well as your Dexterity modifier.

I would say this indicates that the bonus is the Intelligence modifier, not just 'the size of it'.

anyway, wasn't it the bayushi Bushi that was dead fast (+1k0/School rank ro Init).
Shosuro shinobi has some wicked Stealth modifiers, but I can't remember much about init. don't have the book with me here, though.
AkumaDaimyo
04-28-07, 01:50 PM Yes, they are insanely fast in both original L5R and tabletop and Speed of Darkness indeed stacks any Int mod with Dex. Thus a high Dex, high Int Ninja is very fast and could take improved Initiative to be even faster.
Azzy
04-30-07, 04:55 AM Speed of darkness: at 4th level, the ninja may add his Intelligence modifier to his Initiative.

Way of the Scorpion: You may add your Intelligence modifier, if positive, to your Initiative as well as your Dexterity modifier.

I would say this indicates that the bonus is the Intelligence modifier, not just 'the size of it'.

If that's the actual wording above, then no--the class ability and the feat do not stack. Both abilities do the same thing--that is, allow you to apply your Int modifier to your Initiative. However, you cannot apply the same modifier (Int modifier, in this case) twice, so they don't stack.
HidaAkira
05-02-07, 04:00 AM Yes, they are insanely fast in both original L5R and tabletop and Speed of Darkness indeed stacks any Int mod with Dex. Thus a high Dex, high Int Ninja is very fast and could take improved Initiative to be even faster.

There was no question of that. The point is that Speed of Darkness and Way of the Scorpion both grant the exact same ability - adding your Intelligence modifier to your Initiative.
Therefore, lacking any additional text that specifically makes an exceptuion, Speed of Darkness and WotSc do not stack, as Azzy (and others) have already argued.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hanzo138 04-11-07, 02:58 AM	both add your int mod to initiative. do they stack or no?
ted_the_mindflayer 04-11-07, 07:57 AM	both add your int mod to initiative. do they stack or no? Well yes and no... Yes they are both were d20 but one is d&d rules the other applies to a specific setting that is not intended to be fused with all suplment rules that most likely will unbalance characters and conflict the setting.
TheDragonmaster 04-11-07, 09:11 AM	Ermmm, correct me if I am wrong, but both are in Rokugan Campaign Setting, right (Feat and Ninja Ability)? Thus both are part of the same book and should have been forseen as used together (by all Scorpion Ninjas, in fact). Thus I would say they stack. If you want synergies with the Rokugan Ninja class look at the combo of Shadow Run with the Blade Dancer's (Oriental Adventures) Fast Movement ability. The way it works (x2, x(2+1/3), x(2+3/3), x3), it would give a high-Constitution character sickening speed... at about 20th level, combine with Boots of Swiftness (Epic Level Handbook), for sheer cheeze.
aelryinth 04-11-07, 09:53 PM	If two abilities are stat derived and don't have a bonus name, they are generally considered the 'same' bonus and don't stack, even if they have minor differences. So, I'd say probably not. The feat just allows you to access an ability normally only ninja possess. ===Aelryinth
narukagami 04-11-07, 09:59 PM	If two abilities are stat derived and don't have a bonus name, they are generally considered the 'same' bonus and don't stack, even if they have minor differences. So, I'd say probably not. The feat just allows you to access an ability normally only ninja possess. ===Aelryinth Correct. Bonuses to the same thing from the same source (in this case, intelligence score) don't stack. Even if its a different gateway for the source, its still the same source.
3DJutsu 04-12-07, 03:58 AM	The above posters are correct, it's like trying to add your Wis to you AC twice or more using Monk/Ninja/ and/or Swordsage, it just doesn't happen.
HidaAkira 04-12-07, 06:31 AM	Not to mention that in one case (Secrets of the Dragon), the feat Two Heavens allows you to apply your Wisdom modifier to AC instead of Dex. The feat text specifically addresses what happens if you already apply your Wis to AC, like the monk does. Since WotSc does not specifically address this, I would assume that the two do not stack. Of course, I don't see why they did not just give WotSc as a bonus feat instead. This way just makes more names to remember.
TheDragonmaster 04-16-07, 12:27 PM	I have never before read as many posts all posting the same misunderstanding... 1) The source of the bonus is not their Int modifier, that is merely the size of it. The source of the modifier is the ability in question. The bonuses are untyped, by the way. 2) If nothing states otherwise, the bonuses should thereby stack. 3) Examples provided (Monk and Ninja Wis to AC and Monk + Swordsage (allthough Ninja and Swordsage would by the letter of the rules stack)), specifically state that they do not stack with each other. That is the reason why they not stack, not that the bonuses have the same size (the current Wis modifier of the character in question). HidaAkira even uses my arguments, but still draws another conclusion. If you are to use the above posters' advice still after hearing my arguments, please send an email adressing this corundum to customer service (or ask at CO boards, they always know the letter of the law...). I seldom frankly tell people that they are wrong, but I deviated from this rule here. I do not intend to make anyone angry (though perhaps mildly irritated), and even if I would, I realize that since I do not know any of you or your opinions, that would be sickeningly pathetic.
AkumaDaimyo 04-23-07, 01:08 AM	I think they stack. It says add your Int modifier to Init, not use in place of Dex. It stacks people. It's one of the abilities of the Rokgan Ninja that they are insanely fast with a high dex and a high int, add in Improved Initiative and he's always going first and probably catching at least one person flat footed.
HidaAkira 04-28-07, 08:21 AM	1) The source of the bonus is not their Int modifier, that is merely the size of it. The source of the modifier is the ability in question. The bonuses are untyped, by the way. Speed of darkness: at 4th level, the ninja may add his Intelligence modifier to his Initiative. Way of the Scorpion: You may add your Intelligence modifier, if positive, to your Initiative as well as your Dexterity modifier. I would say this indicates that the bonus is the Intelligence modifier, not just 'the size of it'. anyway, wasn't it the bayushi Bushi that was dead fast (+1k0/School rank ro Init). Shosuro shinobi has some wicked Stealth modifiers, but I can't remember much about init. don't have the book with me here, though.
AkumaDaimyo 04-28-07, 01:50 PM	Yes, they are insanely fast in both original L5R and tabletop and Speed of Darkness indeed stacks any Int mod with Dex. Thus a high Dex, high Int Ninja is very fast and could take improved Initiative to be even faster.
Azzy 04-30-07, 04:55 AM	Speed of darkness: at 4th level, the ninja may add his Intelligence modifier to his Initiative. Way of the Scorpion: You may add your Intelligence modifier, if positive, to your Initiative as well as your Dexterity modifier. I would say this indicates that the bonus is the Intelligence modifier, not just 'the size of it'. If that's the actual wording above, then no--the class ability and the feat do not stack. Both abilities do the same thing--that is, allow you to apply your Int modifier to your Initiative. However, you cannot apply the same modifier (Int modifier, in this case) twice, so they don't stack.
HidaAkira 05-02-07, 04:00 AM	Yes, they are insanely fast in both original L5R and tabletop and Speed of Darkness indeed stacks any Int mod with Dex. Thus a high Dex, high Int Ninja is very fast and could take improved Initiative to be even faster. There was no question of that. The point is that Speed of Darkness and Way of the Scorpion both grant the exact same ability - adding your Intelligence modifier to your Initiative. Therefore, lacking any additional text that specifically makes an exceptuion, Speed of Darkness and WotSc do not stack, as Azzy (and others) have already argued.