+1 Level of existing spellcasting class Question? [Archive] - Wizards Community

+1 Level of existing spellcasting class Question? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JarionSilverblades
09-23-07, 06:20 PM I was wondering if I had a Sorcerer 5/Rogue 1/Assassin 2 and gained 2 levels of Arcane Trickster, could I put the first +1 level of existing spellcasting class to the Sorcerer and the second to the Assassin class?
Khatoblepas
09-23-07, 06:24 PM Yes. In most prestige classes, it says "if you have more than one spellcasting class, you choose at each level which class to progress". I believe that all prestige classes are intended to work this way.
Talisman
09-23-07, 11:25 PM Yes. In most prestige classes, it says "if you have more than one spellcasting class, you choose at each level which class to progress". I believe that all prestige classes are intended to work this way.

No. Many PrC's have spellcasting requirements that must be met to enter them. If you have multiple spellcasting classes, but only one allows you to meet the prereq's, you have to apply the level increase to that one.

If you could, theoretically, apply the increase to different caster classes, you have to pick one when you join the PrC and stick with it. In your example, you'd have to pick either sorcerer spellcasting or assassin spellcasting.

I have never seen that line you quote, Khat. Could you cite a specific reference? I've never heard of a PrC working that way.
dman11235
09-23-07, 11:49 PM It's always choose one. I have never seen a PrC where you can switch at each level (Aside from Ultimate Magus in certain situations). However. It can easily be interpreted to mean the way you say, so I say it's a judgement call.
Sagetim
09-24-07, 01:37 AM It's always choose one. I have never seen a PrC where you can switch at each level (Aside from Ultimate Magus in certain situations). However. It can easily be interpreted to mean the way you say, so I say it's a judgement call.

It's not in very uncertain terms. To interpret it that way would require quite a bit of fuzzy logic. And bribing the DM with pizza or something.
calronmoonflower
09-24-07, 01:49 AM Lets look at the Rules As Written Spells per Day: When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.

It looks very clear to me that the decision is made at each level.
Talisman
09-24-07, 10:18 AM Nowhere does it say "at each level." If you're a sorcerer/wizard/assassin/arcane trickster, when you take your 1st level ot trickster, you decide which of your spellcasting classes will get the boost.

This is a "the rules don't say I can't!" arguement, which is logically invalid.
foxtail
09-24-07, 10:40 AM No. Many PrC's have spellcasting requirements that must be met to enter them. If you have multiple spellcasting classes, but only one allows you to meet the prereq's, you have to apply the level increase to that one.

Wizards seems to disagree with you. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070523a
Q: Dear Sage,
If a prestige class doesn't specify whether an increase in spellcasting applies to an arcane or divine spellcasting class, is the player free to choose? For example, if my cleric/rogue/wizard takes a level of arcane trickster, am I free to apply the increased caster level to his cleric spellcasting ability, even though it was his wizard spellcasting ability that qualified him for the prestige class in the first place?
--Rob

A: Yes. If the prestige class does not limit the type of spellcasting you can improve, you are free to choose any of your spellcasting classes.

Nowhere does it say "at each level." If you're a sorcerer/wizard/assassin/arcane trickster, when you take your 1st level ot trickster, you decide which of your spellcasting classes will get the boost.

Nowhere does the text say "at 1st level," either.

When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class.

Same quote, different emphasis. Not "the spellcasting class which helped him to qualify for this PrC", not "the spellcasting class chosen at the first level of this PrC" but "a spellcasting class he belonged to", when "a new arcane tricker level is gained."
foxtail
09-24-07, 11:37 AM Also,Yes. In most prestige classes, it says "if you have more than one spellcasting class, you choose at each level which class to progress". I believe that all prestige classes are intended to work this way.
I have never seen that line you quote, Khat. Could you cite a specific reference? I've never heard of a PrC working that way.
I did find a core example of this in the eldritch knight's text... sort of. It's worded less clearly than Khat's version.
If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before she became an eldritch knight, she must decide to which class she adds each level of eldritch knight for the purpose of determining spells per day.
The thaumaturgist has identical text. I dunno if it's the same with "most prestige classes," though, because I don't have my books handy.
goawayugh
09-24-07, 11:52 AM Spells per Day

When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.
It's not "when you take your first level in this class". It's "when a new level is gained", as in when you gain a level in AT, then you choose which caster to increase. I really can't see how this can be read any other way.
LordDantePendragon
09-25-07, 07:30 PM I have a different, possibly stupid question in the same field. I am trying to plan out the rest of my Warlock 3/Wizard 3/ Eldritch Theurge 2..my question is this...with the 10 levels of eldritch theurge that only puts me up to 16...so I'm trying to figure out the last 4...I was planning on filling in with warlock just because. But what I want to know is...how do i figure out what I gain at the new levels? does the +1 level to invocation casting class technically make me a level 13 warlock at CL17..so I would take the benefits of level 14, or of level 4?

and where is this information printed?
dman11235
09-25-07, 07:49 PM It's printed in the PrC. You take the invocation advancement of warlock only. Nothing else. So at level 17 your build would be casting spells as a 13th level wizard, and using invocations as a 14th level warlock. That includes invocations known and such.
LordDantePendragon
09-25-07, 08:53 PM but would I then recieve the Decieve Item feat as a level 4 warlock, with that being the next warlock level that I am taking? or would it be that at CL 18 I am getting an extra bump for my fiendish resilience that you recieve as a level 15 warlock?
goawayugh
09-25-07, 11:25 PM The "+1 level" classes will add to your Eldritich Blast damage and your Invocations known, but not other special abilities. When you take your 4th level of Warlock, you will be gaining the special abliities of a 4th level Warlock (Decieve Item?). But, you will do EB damage as if you were 14th level and have the invocations known of a 14th level Warlock.
Sagetim
09-26-07, 02:08 AM Also,

I did find a core example of this in the eldritch knight's text... sort of. It's worded less clearly than Khat's version.

The thaumaturgist has identical text. I dunno if it's the same with "most prestige classes," though, because I don't have my books handy.

it's nice that that is what the text for eldritch knight says, but that isn't what the arcane trickster says.

to quote from the DMG 3.5:
"...If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day."

nowhere does it say that you can switch the choice. It's a choice you make when you become an arcane trickster, not when you level up. It's worded like a maze for a simple reason: it prevents someone from taking this class, then jumping into another class for one level, then upping this class to increase the casting abilities of the other class. It doesn't sound like a good idea, but someone might want to do it anyway. This prevents such a thing. There's bound to be other explanations.

New level does not mean 'at each new level' if it did, it would be worded along the lines of 'at each level of this prestige class, the character must choose which spellcasting class to add this level to. They may not add to a spellcasting class that they have gained after taking levels in this prestige class'.

Also, I can see where 'new class' could lead someone astray. English is a tricky language, even for it's native speakers.
Paradox_of_Life
09-26-07, 04:20 AM It also doesn't say that once you make the choice, you must stick with it. Think of it this way: Spellcasting is f(A and B [not A + B]). When you gain a new level, it changes f(x). But, since f(x) consists of spell lists of A and B, then one of those must change. Yet it doesn't state that once A is changed, it must always be changed. The way it is written, it is changing a static variable, with no prior preference stated, meaning that you must make the choice at each level.

I could be wrong, so feel free to correct me.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JarionSilverblades 09-23-07, 06:20 PM	I was wondering if I had a Sorcerer 5/Rogue 1/Assassin 2 and gained 2 levels of Arcane Trickster, could I put the first +1 level of existing spellcasting class to the Sorcerer and the second to the Assassin class?
Khatoblepas 09-23-07, 06:24 PM	Yes. In most prestige classes, it says "if you have more than one spellcasting class, you choose at each level which class to progress". I believe that all prestige classes are intended to work this way.
Talisman 09-23-07, 11:25 PM	Yes. In most prestige classes, it says "if you have more than one spellcasting class, you choose at each level which class to progress". I believe that all prestige classes are intended to work this way. No. Many PrC's have spellcasting requirements that must be met to enter them. If you have multiple spellcasting classes, but only one allows you to meet the prereq's, you have to apply the level increase to that one. If you could, theoretically, apply the increase to different caster classes, you have to pick one when you join the PrC and stick with it. In your example, you'd have to pick either sorcerer spellcasting or assassin spellcasting. I have never seen that line you quote, Khat. Could you cite a specific reference? I've never heard of a PrC working that way.
dman11235 09-23-07, 11:49 PM	It's always choose one. I have never seen a PrC where you can switch at each level (Aside from Ultimate Magus in certain situations). However. It can easily be interpreted to mean the way you say, so I say it's a judgement call.
Sagetim 09-24-07, 01:37 AM	It's always choose one. I have never seen a PrC where you can switch at each level (Aside from Ultimate Magus in certain situations). However. It can easily be interpreted to mean the way you say, so I say it's a judgement call. It's not in very uncertain terms. To interpret it that way would require quite a bit of fuzzy logic. And bribing the DM with pizza or something.
calronmoonflower 09-24-07, 01:49 AM	Lets look at the Rules As Written Spells per Day: When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day. It looks very clear to me that the decision is made at each level.
Talisman 09-24-07, 10:18 AM	Nowhere does it say "at each level." If you're a sorcerer/wizard/assassin/arcane trickster, when you take your 1st level ot trickster, you decide which of your spellcasting classes will get the boost. This is a "the rules don't say I can't!" arguement, which is logically invalid.
foxtail 09-24-07, 10:40 AM	No. Many PrC's have spellcasting requirements that must be met to enter them. If you have multiple spellcasting classes, but only one allows you to meet the prereq's, you have to apply the level increase to that one. Wizards seems to disagree with you. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070523a Q: Dear Sage, If a prestige class doesn't specify whether an increase in spellcasting applies to an arcane or divine spellcasting class, is the player free to choose? For example, if my cleric/rogue/wizard takes a level of arcane trickster, am I free to apply the increased caster level to his cleric spellcasting ability, even though it was his wizard spellcasting ability that qualified him for the prestige class in the first place? --Rob A: Yes. If the prestige class does not limit the type of spellcasting you can improve, you are free to choose any of your spellcasting classes. Nowhere does it say "at each level." If you're a sorcerer/wizard/assassin/arcane trickster, when you take your 1st level ot trickster, you decide which of your spellcasting classes will get the boost. Nowhere does the text say "at 1st level," either. When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. Same quote, different emphasis. Not "the spellcasting class which helped him to qualify for this PrC", not "the spellcasting class chosen at the first level of this PrC" but "a spellcasting class he belonged to", when "a new arcane tricker level is gained."
foxtail 09-24-07, 11:37 AM	Also,Yes. In most prestige classes, it says "if you have more than one spellcasting class, you choose at each level which class to progress". I believe that all prestige classes are intended to work this way. I have never seen that line you quote, Khat. Could you cite a specific reference? I've never heard of a PrC working that way. I did find a core example of this in the eldritch knight's text... sort of. It's worded less clearly than Khat's version. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before she became an eldritch knight, she must decide to which class she adds each level of eldritch knight for the purpose of determining spells per day. The thaumaturgist has identical text. I dunno if it's the same with "most prestige classes," though, because I don't have my books handy.
goawayugh 09-24-07, 11:52 AM	Spells per Day When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day. It's not "when you take your first level in this class". It's "when a new level is gained", as in when you gain a level in AT, then you choose which caster to increase. I really can't see how this can be read any other way.
LordDantePendragon 09-25-07, 07:30 PM	I have a different, possibly stupid question in the same field. I am trying to plan out the rest of my Warlock 3/Wizard 3/ Eldritch Theurge 2..my question is this...with the 10 levels of eldritch theurge that only puts me up to 16...so I'm trying to figure out the last 4...I was planning on filling in with warlock just because. But what I want to know is...how do i figure out what I gain at the new levels? does the +1 level to invocation casting class technically make me a level 13 warlock at CL17..so I would take the benefits of level 14, or of level 4? and where is this information printed?
dman11235 09-25-07, 07:49 PM	It's printed in the PrC. You take the invocation advancement of warlock only. Nothing else. So at level 17 your build would be casting spells as a 13th level wizard, and using invocations as a 14th level warlock. That includes invocations known and such.
LordDantePendragon 09-25-07, 08:53 PM	but would I then recieve the Decieve Item feat as a level 4 warlock, with that being the next warlock level that I am taking? or would it be that at CL 18 I am getting an extra bump for my fiendish resilience that you recieve as a level 15 warlock?
goawayugh 09-25-07, 11:25 PM	The "+1 level" classes will add to your Eldritich Blast damage and your Invocations known, but not other special abilities. When you take your 4th level of Warlock, you will be gaining the special abliities of a 4th level Warlock (Decieve Item?). But, you will do EB damage as if you were 14th level and have the invocations known of a 14th level Warlock.
Sagetim 09-26-07, 02:08 AM	Also, I did find a core example of this in the eldritch knight's text... sort of. It's worded less clearly than Khat's version. The thaumaturgist has identical text. I dunno if it's the same with "most prestige classes," though, because I don't have my books handy. it's nice that that is what the text for eldritch knight says, but that isn't what the arcane trickster says. to quote from the DMG 3.5: "...If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day." nowhere does it say that you can switch the choice. It's a choice you make when you become an arcane trickster, not when you level up. It's worded like a maze for a simple reason: it prevents someone from taking this class, then jumping into another class for one level, then upping this class to increase the casting abilities of the other class. It doesn't sound like a good idea, but someone might want to do it anyway. This prevents such a thing. There's bound to be other explanations. New level does not mean 'at each new level' if it did, it would be worded along the lines of 'at each level of this prestige class, the character must choose which spellcasting class to add this level to. They may not add to a spellcasting class that they have gained after taking levels in this prestige class'. Also, I can see where 'new class' could lead someone astray. English is a tricky language, even for it's native speakers.
Paradox_of_Life 09-26-07, 04:20 AM	It also doesn't say that once you make the choice, you must stick with it. Think of it this way: Spellcasting is f(A and B [not A + B]). When you gain a new level, it changes f(x). But, since f(x) consists of spell lists of A and B, then one of those must change. Yet it doesn't state that once A is changed, it must always be changed. The way it is written, it is changing a static variable, with no prior preference stated, meaning that you must make the choice at each level. I could be wrong, so feel free to correct me.